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Goblinardo
26-06-2005, 03:41
What kind of info do we have on cloning technology in 40K? As far as I can tell, the only references to it have been the possibility of Abbadon being Horus' clone child and Fabius Bile's experiments.

Strikerkc
26-06-2005, 04:03
Well, they can certainly vat grow servitor bodies and such (refference from an Eisenhorn novel). And they can vat grow replacement limbes and extra musccle implants. I've never seen a refference to actual cloneing outside of the abbadon/horus thing.

DantesInferno
26-06-2005, 04:05
The Afriel strain of Guardsmen are also rumored to be an attempt to clone the Imperium's greatest heroes into Guardsmen for a regiment, but they're all albino and everyone hates them.

Damn.

Witch Hunter
26-06-2005, 05:12
In the fluff somewhere in the deep past(2nd or earlier), IIRC, the Horus/Abbadon clone child also had references to multiple(but flawed) clones of Horus himself. Might have had something to do with Bile, but I honestly don't remember.

Delicious Soy
26-06-2005, 08:18
A few centuries after the heresy, a combined force of Traitor Legions besieged and captured the last fortress of the Sons of Horus. They took the body of the warmaster and cloned him. The 2nd ed codex seems to imply that they still regarded him as leader in some way, but after the capture of and cloning of his corpse they swore themselves to Abaddon and he remade them into the Black Legion and destroyed the body of Horus and the clones.

Cloning in the Imperium or at least, the cloning of humans for the purposes of living a normal life seems to be techno-heresy. While there are some projects like the Afriel Strain, for the most part, cloned humans end up as servitors or spare parts. In regaards to the Afriel Strain, IIRC it is based off the Lorii character in the Last Chancers, who was part of the experiments cloned from Macharius. However they were based of Semen samples taken from him, so its possible that the Afriel programme uses IV fertisiliation rather than cloning.

Bruen
26-06-2005, 08:54
Don't the High Lords of Terra keep themselves alive for hundreds of years using clone vats on Mars?

I can't remember where I read that though.

marineowar
26-06-2005, 09:51
I thought that space marine gene-seed was cultivated by implanting into clones? I was a while ago that I read that so I could be wrong.

astrocortex
26-06-2005, 12:25
Don't the High Lords of Terra keep themselves alive for hundreds of years using clone vats on Mars?

I can't remember where I read that though.

It's the bigwigs of the Ad-Mech who do that, but because they're only renewing their bodies they're slowly going more and more loopey with time.

Bruen
26-06-2005, 12:50
It's the bigwigs of the Ad-Mech who do that, but because they're only renewing their bodies they're slowly going more and more loopey with time.

Thats worrying because IMHO they were never all that sane in the first place.

Brusilov
26-06-2005, 12:52
I don't think cloning is an area of interest to the Imperium. As mentioned it seems the previous attempts were horrendous failures, or at least did not produce the expected results.

As to the extended lifespan of the higher echelons of the Adeptus Terra, it does not have to do with cloning, but with rejuvenation drugs and cybernetic implants.
This is especially true of the upper echelons of the Cult Mechanicus. Cloning does not fit well with them at all. Flesh is weak, metal is stronger. Over the centuries the Arch-Magi of the Mechanicus replace their body with more and more cybernetic prosthetics until they are barely human. Often after millennia of life they lose all contact with reality and would usually be removed from power but remain incredibly useful because of the vast knowledge they have amassed (if you can find a way to access it).

MorningStar
26-06-2005, 17:08
Well from what I get in the fluff is time travels differantly when a ship is in warp space. And it never really mentions how much the high lords actually travel, if any. And also I think expanded lifespans is a galaxy wide thing because in alot of the fluff it mentions how there are administorum(sp?) that have been working in the bowels of their offices for hundreds of years and what not. But I could be wrong.

Brusilov
26-06-2005, 20:55
I don't think the High Lords do much travelling, with the possible exception of the Lord Commander Militant. They're the head of their administration first and foremost, there more or less chained to their desk.
And lowly scribes don't get extended lifespan, generations of them spend their life at their desk working on files centuries out of date. It is even said they train their own sons and daughters to continue their work after their death. Life is cheap in the Imperium, a single individual means nothing.

Hideous Loon
26-06-2005, 21:06
Like Brusie (teehee...) said, cloning isn't an area where the big, bureaucratic machine that is the Imperium would invest a lot of money/effort. Why? Because there are loads of worlds, feral worlds for instance, filled to the brim with healthy, strong humans, fit to be picked, taken to the ship and brainwashed. Voila! A perfect Servitor 'base'! And wouldn't the High Lords of Terra, the Administorum and the "Supreme-Rulers-of-the-AdMech" use bionic implants instead of cloning to be able to toil in their offices for centuries on end?

Of course, there's that troublesome business with the Afriel Strain. Oh bother. But, like "the smart git who brought it up" said, they are hated by the Imperium in general. But, is that merely because they are breaking the sacred rule of "no cloning"? Or is it for some other obscure reason?

Brusilov
26-06-2005, 21:15
Personally I think they have to do with the sacred form of the human being, as seen by the Ministorum (again you have to take into account that there is a difference between the official stance and the actions of the upper echelons of the Imperium). This idea derives from (besides heavy Dune inspiration of the 40k universe but that's beside the point) the hatred towards mutants and psykers.
Those impure beings are loathed and hated by the Imperium because they defile the sacred nature of the human body, as embodied (no pun intended) by the Emperor (note the irony).

Minister
27-06-2005, 01:15
The Mechanicus does, however, make use of cloning. Particularly of note are the constructs grown from some of the more venerable and senior members who act as a sort of secondary immune system and detoxifier, generally grown only to childlike state and surgically attatched:

Haemoncolyte
Haemoncolytes are vat-grown creatures formed from the
Techpriest’s own flesh and blood. They are typically
created to cleanse the Techpriests’ organic components
of poisons and tumours, any such imperfections being
passed along an umbilical and absorbed by the
Haemoncolyte. They are ugly and dwarfish to begin with
and over time they age rapidly, becoming covered in liver
spots and lumpen growths.


There is also reference in one of the novels to a navigator having a protective ward penned onto a strip of her cloned and cured skin, but then we all know what those mutants are like...

Essia
27-06-2005, 03:50
It requires vast resources to clone and train a human to a usable age, why bother whe you can get them free from all the worlds? If they want super tough soldiers, find them in a deathworld where natural selection removes the weaker ones already.

Also the Imperial ideology suggest souls are what the people are trying to save/redempt. therefore a clone will not have the same soul as the original person. therefore you cannot get the same person anyway.

Brusilov
27-06-2005, 06:56
I'm not saying the Imperium makes now use of cloning. But it would be limited to creating servitors such as servitors, Cherubim and such other beings, but they're not human beings in the strictest sense of the term. They're brainwashed half-mechanical slaves.

Essia makes an excellent point on souls and the philosophy of the Imperium. This is so true servo-skulls are made of dead servants of the Emperor, adepts or warriors.

Navigators are very precious resources, thus it's not at all unlikely there'd be material to clone part of their body to keep them alive.

Terminatorphoenix
28-06-2005, 18:50
what asout the magos biologis bosses?i asume they'de use cloning.

Khaine's Messenger
28-06-2005, 19:10
Magos Biologis only take biology as an academic attachment, not as an ideology. While you could argue that there is the chance that at least one tech priest is heretic enough to consider the human body the "perfect machine," it is unlikely that it would be a very widespread belief (after all, it directly contradicts some of the Universal Laws).

But yeah, they would "use" cloning insofar as it might be part of their job description to develop some of the previously mentioned "organic" products of the adeptus mechanicus.

Brusilov
28-06-2005, 20:14
Messenger is quite right, the Magos Biologis would not consider meat to be better than metal, after all their god is the Omnissiah, the Deux Mechanicus.
From a theological point of view, they would probaby try to demonstrate how men are improved by machines.
But the Mechanicus is the centre of an interestign contradiction. In an Imperium that believes in the sanctity of the human form, as embodied by hatred toward mutants and sentient machines, the techpriests worship machines as the embodiement of perfection, quite ironic.

Minister
29-06-2005, 00:23
The Mechanicus has at its core the belief that all knowlege is sacred (the submission of falsified data from one Magos to another is treated as one of the greatest of possible blasphemies in Crossfire). Therefore, any vessel of knowlege (whether human or machine) is to be studied.

Besides the pure and unsullied aspect of divine knowlege, there are also the extremley useful practical applications. The Imperium, a manifestation of the will of the Omnisiah, is founded upon and by humanity, and humans are biological creatures. By understanding bioligy the limitations of humans are learned, along with how best to overcome those limitations. Biological research is also most useful for the destruction of the Xenos filth who cause afront to the nature of the Machines and to the human race.

Goblinardo
29-06-2005, 02:29
Interesting. Even though it's the AdMech's belief that Machine = perfection and the less "meat" on their bodies the better, they still force themselves to keep an organic (though heavily modified) brain. I know this is because of the Men of Iron incident and the ban on 'true' AIs, but still...

It makes me wonder: is the unability to achieve perfection part of the Cult Mechanicus' commandments?

Brusilov
29-06-2005, 06:24
Possible, it might be considered as a crime against the Omnissiah and the ultimate arrogance. It would be like trying to rise oneself to be the equal of a god, a blasphemy.

Skander
29-06-2005, 09:03
Or it can be that replacing the brain just creates a replica of the individual but not the individual himself. Replacing your brain for a mechanical one will mean your death, no matter how well replicated it is on the artificial brain. Somewhere in the process there has to be a discontinuity on consciousness, and that means death.

Delicious Soy
29-06-2005, 10:20
it's the AdMech's belief that Machine = perfection
I don't really think this is the case. I think that the Ad-Mech belief is geared towards the human dominance of the machine, the way they regard 'machine spirits' would seem to be in a form similar to daemonancy, bending the will of something into doing your bidding. Note that the Ad-Mech only uses the most subservient of Artificial Intelligence, servitors always at least use the cerebral cortex as the central component. The AD-Mech seems to take it upon themselves to control and appease the machine for the benefit of humanity, their search for knowledge is rooted in the Age of Strife, to find old technology, but to find a way master it and prevent another case of the Iron Men. Looking at them from this perspective one could view the bionic adaptions as a sort of flagellation, or as a sign of mastery of machines (ie they are so capable of bending the machine spirits to their will, the have them bound to their bodies)

El_Machinae
03-07-2005, 00:12
Replacing your brain for a mechanical one will mean your death

What if you replace individual neurons, individually, with hardier electronics, and gradually allow the thoughts to integrate between the existing neurons and the transistors? Gradually.


My thinking is that, if you replace a neuron by something that behaves like a neuron, the brain will soon adapt to it and use it. If the inloading is slow enough, your brain has enough time to adapt to the new hardware and you shouldn't even feel the change, mind-wise.

From a site discussing uploading human minds. (http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=47&t=157&st=0)

malika
03-07-2005, 00:25
I think cloning is so rare to none existent because there is the question if a soul can be cloned too. Will a clone get a soul? If so can that soul be controlled? etc etc etc

Eldacar
03-07-2005, 02:46
Not sure if this has been raised before, but weren't the Primarchs created from the Emperor's DNA? Isn't that classed as cloning? Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Psiweapon
03-07-2005, 10:54
Primarchs were created from the Empie's DNA, but it was tinkered with, so I don't think that's cloning.

About the Adeptus Mechanicus thing, they have a method to transfer the sould. Century after century their "central" human brain becomes more and more corrupted and aged, and is less and less capable of sustaining the functions it has to. So they clone a fresh new body (or vat grow a brain, or what they need, whatever) graft onto it the needed implants, and then SHAZAM transfer their mind and their souls to them. With the new "pipes" they can keep working for another period of time. But their mind is still corrupted as a humn mind was never intended to keep working for thousands of years nor having silicon (or whatever they use, ¿dna or quantum-entanglement based computers anyone?) bitz poking in their insides.

{Semi off-topic rant about the soul}
Another thought: The mind and the soul are separate things in WH40k. And it seems like a mind can work without a soul but, ¿does a soul exist without a mind? or do Pariahs, Blanks and so on have *different* types of soul? The Immaterium is a plane of reality, and so is the Waaagh! Ork souls form part of the Waaagh! and human, eldar, and tau (although weakly) seem to be part of / manifest in the warp. As for the Hive Mind, my bet is that it is a self-contained plane/entity, but either it intersects with the Warp, or it's powerful enough to fully disrupt it from the outside. Or it could be that the individual little souls of the tyranid entities are in the warp, but the Hive Mind is in another plane, controlling them. And interesting offspin of this is that the Hive Mind could actually be some bleeping uber psiker from other reality (or next doors galaxy?)

If we could find out wether the "Shadow in the Warp" also casts a "Shadow in the Great Green" or not, it would shed a lot of light on this issue.

Brusilov
03-07-2005, 11:25
the soul can certainly exist without a mind. IMO the best example is the Star Child, the Emperor's soul cast adrift in the warp during his confrontation with Horus, while his mind remain trapped in the husk of his body.

Another example is the fact that the souls of humans do not retain their mind when people die, the soul alone is cast adrift in the warp. The fact that it's snatched by daemons who offer it up to their masters is another thing entirely. Only Eldar would retain their mind attached to their soul when they die, which explains the horror of dying without a spirit stone because the Eldar would be fully aware of his soul being devoured by Slaanesh.

Wiseman
03-07-2005, 12:22
if the soul is adrift in the warp, then would it be possible to "catch" it and bind it to a host body, like a bound daemon, but a bound human soul? of course it would have to be a person who was already missing a soul.

Brusilov
03-07-2005, 13:44
Yes I think it would be possible to do so. After all this is the way it works for daemons themselves (which I personally consider to be the souls of individuals utterly dedicated to their god).
A good example of this are the way Thorians try to trap the essence of the Emperor into the body of mortals

Minister
03-07-2005, 15:26
More they try to locate those mortals who are posessed of a small pice of the Emperor's soul, and search for a single person who might become an Avatar and allow the Emperor to fully manifest.

Brusilov
03-07-2005, 20:48
Which is exactly what I said, except for the first part :p
Although I'd add stuff about the Emperor's daemons in there, but that's really just me

Psiweapon
04-07-2005, 10:44
Which is exactly what I said, except for the first part :p
Although I'd add stuff about the Emperor's daemons in there, but that's really just me

Hey! Tell us more, tell us more.

*imagines a poster of "The emperor wants YOU" with the emperor pointing with is mighty golden finger at the reader and below in small letters reads "for replacement body"

EmperorsChamp01
04-07-2005, 11:26
The gene seed is put in to ambiotic fluid and it just grows. But yea Lorii from the Last Chancers is a clone and had severl clone brothers and sisters. I Dont think that there based off Macarius though. How can Abbadon be a clone child of Horus if Abbadon found horus's body after the battle with the emperor. Isnt that how he got Horus's Right glove?

Minister
04-07-2005, 12:14
Your idea was to trap the Emperor's essence in the bodies of mortals, making lotza rather hard things (which is what is thoutht to occur naturally with Living Saints and the like). The Torians' actual Kunnin' Plan is to have the Emperor manifest in one single person (and hope like hell that a Chaos or Orc god never does the same). After all, if a man can become a god, that god may then become a man once more.

Nazguire
04-07-2005, 12:25
The gene seed is put in to ambiotic fluid and it just grows. But yea Lorii from the Last Chancers is a clone and had severl clone brothers and sisters. I Dont think that there based off Macarius though. How can Abbadon be a clone child of Horus if Abbadon found horus's body after the battle with the emperor. Isnt that how he got Horus's Right glove?


Being a clone doesn't mean being cloned while he was dead...no siree. Hesa be a clone by beingsa alive. Clone son he is often referred to so he could have been created by Horus when the Warmaster was having a depressing "I'm the only one of my kind and I' haven't got a successor.." mid life crisis thing.

Delicious Soy
04-07-2005, 13:31
Being a clone doesn't mean being cloned while he was dead...no siree. Hesa be a clone by beingsa alive. Clone son he is often referred to so he could have been created by Horus when the Warmaster was having a depressing "I'm the only one of my kind and I' haven't got a successor.." mid life crisis thing.
The actual rumour is that Abaddon is a lesser clone of horus, a prototype of the Space Marine process. Of course like all rumous this one is dogged by oddities, primarily due to the nature of the Primarchs themselves. Are they human or something else built from the human genome? I doubt Abaddon is a clone of Horus, it's probably a story of his own creation to emphasise his close link to Horus as the Warmaster and as a scare tactic against the Imperium.

EmperorsChamp01
04-07-2005, 14:05
Why would horus have a cland none of the other primarchs did? I think that he is was just a damn good SM. That makes more sence. Because all the other clones seem to have faults and It just so happens that he is a perfict clone??

Warmaster Primus
02-08-2005, 01:56
It requires vast resources to clone and train a human to a usable age, why bother whe you can get them free from all the worlds? If they want super tough soldiers, find them in a deathworld where natural selection removes the weaker ones already.
I don’t think that is would take too much resources to make a bunch of clones in which to have a stock of spare parts for an important diplomat. You wouldn’t really need to train them or anything, just grow them in vats. But that aside, the necessity for new organs doesn’t mean that clones are needed for transplantations, even now with 21st century technology we’re on the cusp of learning how to regenerate organs. Why do you need a transplant when you can just grow a new one?

QwertyMIDX
02-08-2005, 04:25
You folks forgot the Raven Guard incident.

TenTailedCat
02-08-2005, 04:29
Cloning is refered to as a 'Black Art' by Imperial sources. It's well known that Fabius Bile dabbles in cloning, and I bet some rebellious Ad Mech Magi and radical Inquisitors have used cloning too, but by and large cloning in the Imerium is a big no-no.

As far as i'm aware the Raven Guard didn't clone their troops - they used techniques to artificially speed-up the process of implantation, leading to massive genetic breakdown and degredation.

Nazguire
02-08-2005, 07:28
Why would horus have a cland none of the other primarchs did? I think that he is was just a damn good SM. That makes more sence. Because all the other clones seem to have faults and It just so happens that he is a perfict clone??


Imperial Technology during the Great Crusade was far superior to that of what they have today. Makes sense that clones then were either perfect clones, or better quality than normally produced. And not all clones are imperfect, the AM clones too.

Minister
03-08-2005, 11:10
Imperial Technology during the Great Crusade was far superior to that of what they have today. Makes sense that clones then were either perfect clones, or better quality than normally produced. And not all clones are imperfect, the AM clones too.
Not the case. High-end technology was less concentrated (hence the wider availability of anti-grav) as the Mechanicus did not have complete dominion over this field and the authority to claim anything which might be of interest, however much development was done during and after the heresy to advance Imperial science (although not by much...)

Wiseman
04-08-2005, 13:46
i wouldnt say it was superior during the great crusade, it wasnt monopolised by the AM and so there was more freedom, and less worry about the machine spirits, and purifying every bolt and screw

El_Machinae
04-08-2005, 16:12
I don't know if the dissolution of scientific theory occurred during, before, or after the Great Crusade. I think that the concept of science had started degrading into "maintenance" after the war with the Iron Men.

During the Great Crusade there was certainly "more" high technology because it hadn't all fallen apart by then. As well, it stands to reason that a lot of the worlds in the Imperium were actually richer back then, because their environments hadn't been ruined back then and their natural resources hadn't been fully plundered.

While cloning whole bodies doesn't make sense to us now (when we're _this_ close to cracking stem cells, nevermind government interference), in the dark future of 40k, I could see full-body cloning as a viable method. Heck, it's nearly what they do to recover gene seed.

athamas
04-08-2005, 16:59
didn't one of the space marine chapter experiment with cloning after masive losses...

leading to them being abit unstable...

lots of problems/ monsters/ etc..

Minister
05-08-2005, 00:00
I don't know if the dissolution of scientific theory occurred during, before, or after the Great Crusade. I think that the concept of science had started degrading into "maintenance" after the war with the Iron Men.
Certainly by the Age of Strife it was out the window. The Great Crusade was mostly a time of redescovering new techniques and addapting them to what was known, rather than actually developing anything new.

During the Great Crusade there was certainly "more" high technology because it hadn't all fallen apart by then. As well, it stands to reason that a lot of the worlds in the Imperium were actually richer back then, because their environments hadn't been ruined back then and their natural resources hadn't been fully plundered.
Not really. Most of the Imperium was below what became the base level during the 31st-41st millennia, the majority of ultra-tech would have gone to the dogs over the previous five thousand years.
And natural beauty contributes a lot less to a planet's wealth than a population in the tens of billions and manufacturies as far as the eye can see with vassal worlds bringing in a constant flow of raw materials.

While cloning whole bodies doesn't make sense to us now (when we're _this_ close to cracking stem cells, nevermind government interference), in the dark future of 40k, I could see full-body cloning as a viable method. Heck, it's nearly what they do to recover gene seed.
To supply the initial geneseed, at any rate.

didn't one of the space marine chapter experiment with cloning after masive losses...

leading to them being abit unstable...

lots of problems/ monsters/ etc..
That would be the Raven Guard, although in their attempt to recoup their losses theyexperimented with rapid implantation techniques, not cloning.

When Black Roses Bloom
05-08-2005, 05:28
In the Codex: Chaos Space Marines, there is a reference in the Fabius Bile's section that says that Bile is responsible of armies of cloned warriors for the traitor legions, but it supposed to be superhuman, or inhuman, psychotic warriors, who are artificialy constructed by the "Black Technology Of Cloning".

Other refernces are the cloning or growing of the black carapace in large vats, the multiple organs of the space marines used in the procedure of the making of the warrior and I think some familiars like Psy-Eagles.

Minister
05-08-2005, 09:52
And many of the servitors (most of them, I would think).