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The Inedible
18-09-2006, 02:15
So in the "old" pantheon I'm referring of course to pre-fall Eldar, so before we were left with just pieces of Khaine and Cegorach running willy nilly.

In a few things I've read it's made mention of Kurnous as kind of a father diety to the Eldar as well as a hunter. In connection to Kurnous it is noted that there are those who walk his path amongst the eldar "outcasts" who travel about the galaxy revelling in the hunt.

Now this is all rather limited in its scope, but could one assume that the Exodites might also find need to worship Kurnous or his wife, Isha, while living in the more pastoral setting of a maiden world?

Also what is the official background on Y'nnead?

Sephiroth
18-09-2006, 02:25
In a few things I've read it's made mention of Kurnous as kind of a father diety to the Eldar as well as a hunter. In connection to Kurnous it is noted that there are those who walk his path amongst the eldar "outcasts" who travel about the galaxy revelling in the hunt.

Ah, the old 'Eldar Hunters' who were rather Predator-esque.

The Inedible
18-09-2006, 02:39
Ah, the old 'Eldar Hunters' who were rather Predator-esque.

Where were they initially talked about? I'm assuming this is probably RT or just a bit later, but hints as to where to read up on them would be cool.

Also what was their style? More Close Combat oriented like the predator or did they work at range like eldar rangers?

Sephiroth
18-09-2006, 02:46
Where were they initially talked about? I'm assuming this is probably RT or just a bit later, but hints as to where to read up on them would be cool.

Also what was their style? More Close Combat oriented like the predator or did they work at range like eldar rangers?

I never saw their style, but I believe it was comparable to Rangers. There was this little blurb on them from a WD, which is a tidbit from describing Outcasts:


Outcasts that heed the call of Kurnous, the Eldar God of the Hunt, trawl the worlds of the galaxy looking for game. These are the Eldar Hunters. They seek anything from rare species, such as the deadly Catachan Devil or Cthellean Cudbear, to dangerous aliens, such as Genestealers or Tyranids, for their trophy collection. A Hunter proudly displays the bones and hides of those he has killed and even the remains of Eldar or Humans are sometimes worn in a gruesome garland should a Hunter be so driven in his desire for game. Everywhere and anywhere eventually becomes the Hunter's domain, even a hive world or an isolated Imperial outpost. There is only so long that an Eldar Hunter will continue to be exhilarated by hunting the natural fauna of the galaxy. Soon only so-called intelligent species will do.

The Inedible
18-09-2006, 02:52
Ok, thanks for digging that up, it's concurrent with what the 40k wiki said but fleshes it out rather nicely.

One reason I'm interested was just as something to try and model into the Exodite list I'm thinking of creating using the new eldar codex. It now comes to mind that I might be able to create hunters of kurnous as striking scorpions which would explain their increased strength as well as stealth abilities and predelction for close combat (the hunt is more exciting).

And while I'm revealing what I'm shooting for, would it be possible to have the avatar represent a possible "avatar of Kurnous", or other manefestation of some supposed forest diety (probably either a shard of Khain that fell into the woods and thus takes on a woodland appearance, or something worse like a daemon)?

Commander Ozae
18-09-2006, 23:56
That's possible but highly unlikely as the current fluff states that the eldar gods were consumed by Slaanesh.

Also, to answer Y'nnead, Y'nnead is the eldar god of the dead, a sort of Emperor for the eldar composed of all their souls from all the infinity circuits to create a being of such incredible power that it could defeat Chaos. It is the eldar equivalent to the human Star Child.

Khaine's Messenger
19-09-2006, 00:43
And while I'm revealing what I'm shooting for, would it be possible to have the avatar represent a possible "avatar of Kurnous", or other manefestation of some supposed forest diety (probably either a shard of Khain that fell into the woods and thus takes on a woodland appearance, or something worse like a daemon)?

I really don't see why not. Eldar "magic" is perfectly capable of creating animate sculpture, and many such "beings" might dwell in the barrows or other places used to interact with World Spirits. What I do doubt is that it would really be an artefact of Kurnous or any other Eldar deity. Exodites, like the craftworlders, are only bound to their old religion through the conventions of language and all the allusions bound in their ancient tongue. Actual worship of Kurnous or any of the Old Gods would be rare (imho--I believe the "canon" may actually contradict me on this point), and manifestations almost nonexistant except those conjured from memory. Which isn't to say that spirituality would be absent, but while they could call it an "avatar of Kurnous," there's very good evidence that there really wasn't enough of Kurnous left by itself to create such a thing.

schoon
19-09-2006, 15:02
I never saw their style, but I believe it was comparable to Rangers. There was this little blurb on them from a WD, which is a tidbit from describing Outcasts...
Very interesting - from which WD is that?

Hellebore
20-09-2006, 07:35
Would not the continuous worship of Kurnous recreate a NEW one?

Or are we saying that ALL eldar worship always unfailingly goes to Slannesh?

It is pretty much impossible to kill a god if people still worship it, sure the original incarnation Slannesh consumed is gone, but the Exodites don't worship 'PervoKurnous', they worship Kurnous the hunter.

I don't see anyway for the 'pure' worship of the hunter to get funneled toward Slannesh...

Hellebore

Sephiroth
20-09-2006, 07:59
Very interesting - from which WD is that?

Can't recall the exact number sadly. Anyone remember which WD featured the release of the 2nd edition (or first incarnation) of the Eldar Rangers?

Khaine's Messenger
20-09-2006, 15:59
Would not the continuous worship of Kurnous recreate a NEW one?

No. Gods are empowered by the confluence of souls, not worship in itself. Since Eldar souls are tied intimately to Slaanesh, the probability that Eldar souls could accumulate to form a new god without some help (eg, Infinity Circuits, World Spirits, etc.) is very low. You can worship Kurnous all you want, but Slaanesh has the claim on your soul.


Or are we saying that ALL eldar worship always unfailingly goes to Slannesh?

Depends how you want to define worship, no?

Hellebore
20-09-2006, 16:11
No. Gods are empowered by the confluence of souls, not worship in itself. Since Eldar souls are tied intimately to Slaanesh, the probability that Eldar souls could accumulate to form a new god without some help (eg, Infinity Circuits, World Spirits, etc.) is very low. You can worship Kurnous all you want, but Slaanesh has the claim on your soul.



Depends how you want to define worship, no?

Thoughts and emotions feed the gods too. Thus if a worshipper of Kurnous revels in the hunt, his wild emotions will feed into and collect together as a gestalt.

At least, the way it has always been described emotions and souls are the main fuel for the gods.

Hellebore

Khaine's Messenger
20-09-2006, 16:47
At least, the way it has always been described emotions and souls are the main fuel for the gods.

Because souls are (usually) aspected by the extremes of the emotions they endure in life and are thought of as being sorted accordingly (by which I mean scrabbled over by hordes of daemons). Thoughts, emotions, and worship "shape" the gods, giving them their faces and identities; souls are what actually empowers a god. Which is why the claim Slaanesh levies on the souls of the Eldar and the swearing of daemonic pacts are such powerful things.

The Inedible
20-09-2006, 19:45
Because souls are (usually) aspected by the extremes of the emotions they endure in life and are thought of as being sorted accordingly (by which I mean scrabbled over by hordes of daemons). Thoughts, emotions, and worship "shape" the gods, giving them their faces and identities; souls are what actually empowers a god. Which is why the claim Slaanesh levies on the souls of the Eldar and the swearing of daemonic pacts are such powerful things.

But in the skein of the world spirits or the infinity circuits are there not enough collected souls to go to other means? After all the Avatar of Khaine of each craftworld sits at a kind of nexus in the infinity circuit and is itself comprised of the souls of the various exarchs sacrificed to it. While the Exodites may not be able to create an avatar they could at least have some conduit for the world spirit's souls. Also as far as distribution fo the "shards" of Khaine that are each an avatar, it isn't stated that they specificall went to the craftworlds isn't it? I guess we don't exactly have much to go on here, but can we determine if the Eldar had to find the shards, and if so if some could still be missing?

Or failing that the supposed avatar could be something else entirely, for instance a daemon.

MvS
20-09-2006, 20:07
It seems that worship, thoughts and emotions give identities and probabilties to Warp entities, but its the souls that are the actual 'matter' of the gods.

Eldar who die and who are not packed off to the infinity circuit get gobbled up by Slaanesh. There are many ideas of gods floating around in the warp, and many emotions and concepts that could coalesce with masses of souls to create an entity, so the love of the hunt etc exists in the warp, but these concept are aimless or absorbed by other entities already existent in the warp.

Commander Ozae
20-09-2006, 20:12
The problem is that eldar souls are too strong so they don't get dissapear when they enter the Warp like human souls. I wonder if particularly strong human souls are consumed by daemons when they enter the Warp?

Khaine's Messenger
20-09-2006, 20:14
But in the skein of the world spirits or the infinity circuits are there not enough collected souls to go to other means?

Quite. That seems to be the essense of the Ynnaed "project," such as it has been presented.


While the Exodites may not be able to create an avatar they could at least have some conduit for the world spirit's souls.

Absolutely. However, the nature of that conduit (besides your normal menhirs and stone circles and such) is going to be left to you to care about, since the Exodites aren't exactly one of the best-developed veins of background.

The Inedible
21-09-2006, 01:16
Quite. That seems to be the essense of the Ynnaed "project," such as it has been presented.



Absolutely. However, the nature of that conduit (besides your normal menhirs and stone circles and such) is going to be left to you to care about, since the Exodites aren't exactly one of the best-developed veins of background.

Truly, so I'll probably settle for "shard of khaine on a maiden world" or "demon or somesuch".

Hellebore
21-09-2006, 05:24
Because souls are (usually) aspected by the extremes of the emotions they endure in life and are thought of as being sorted accordingly (by which I mean scrabbled over by hordes of daemons). Thoughts, emotions, and worship "shape" the gods, giving them their faces and identities; souls are what actually empowers a god. Which is why the claim Slaanesh levies on the souls of the Eldar and the swearing of daemonic pacts are such powerful things.

My mistake.

Hmmm, that puts a different spin on how I see the gods of chaos now. I had always thought, that because the warp was a realm of emotional energy, that those emotions attained form and function, and provided power.

If all it takes is souls coalescing, then do external emotions actually matter? If a million souls all coloured by one emotion are in the warp, they'll join because of that similarity, yes? Or is it just random globules of soul matter that congeal, irrespective of emotional content, whilst external emotions mould it?

Thus would Khorne be made of rage flavoured souls, or would they be any old souls randomly stuck together, that were forced into the image of rage via external emotional pressure?

Or is it a bit of both, or none of either?

Hellebore