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Slazton
18-09-2006, 02:58
Now its known to me that the Eldar were created by the Old Ones themselves, thus meaning that they were products of the Old Ones seeding the universe. However, what are the Eldar Gods? How could the Eldar beleive they were born from them when they 'knew' they were products of the Old Ones?

Were the Eldar Gods actually Old Ones or were the Eldar Gods manifestations of their psyche in the warp?

Also did the Old Ones know of the Eldar Gods and gladly allow the 'Gods' to fight with them against the C'Tan and the Necrons?

See this is the only bit that actually confuses me. Also where are the Eldar Gods? Did Slaanesh really destroy them all barring the pieces of Khaine and the Laughing God? So is Isha, the Phoinex King and Vaul and the others deaD? Eaten or destroyed by Slaanesh or the C'Tan themselves?

Also what of the Phoinex King? I mean who was he? As what to was his fate?

Such things I could not find in my second edition Eldar Codex and these questions plague me.

So in short: Who or What were the Eldar Gods?

Kage2020
18-09-2006, 03:19
Ah, an old can of worms, if that is the right colloqualism.


However, what are the Eldar Gods? How could the Eldar beleive they were born from them when they 'knew' they were products of the Old Ones?
For me the simple answer is confusion. The Eldar believe that they were created by the 'gods', who the Old Ones were originally perceived as (IMO). The "Asuryan Event", the point of the Eldar's expulsion from the heavens, translates as the period where the Old Ones depart from their newly "uplifted" race. The "Tears of Isha" negotiate the communication with the gods,who are now the nascent Aethyr Gods.

That's how it works for me, at the moment. Solves all the problems that I can think of at the moment.


Were the Eldar Gods actually Old Ones or were the Eldar Gods manifestations of their psyche in the warp?
See the above. I would argue that they were both. The "original" Eldar gods were the Old Ones, whose function and image/theme laid down the basis of the future warp-gods. For those needing a potential image, check out the pseudo-science book, Gods of the New Millennium by Alan F. Alford.


Also did the Old Ones know of the Eldar Gods and gladly allow the 'Gods' to fight with them against the C'Tan and the Necrons?
Does not the canonical material suggest that the Old Ones were vital in the creation of the Aethyr Gods?


Also where are the Eldar Gods? Did Slaanesh really destroy them all barring the pieces of Khaine and the Laughing God? So is Isha, the Phoinex King and Vaul and the others deaD? Eaten or destroyed by Slaanesh or the C'Tan themselves?
Personally I believe that Slaanesh consumed the Eldar Gods, but did not destroy them, but merely changed their form. This is the "Greatest Secret", the premise that at least some of the Keepers of Secrets are the former Eldar gods. Thus one gets a "dark hunter" Keeper of Secret that is the transformed aspect of Kenuous, etc.

Works for me, but obviously it doesn't strike everyones fancy.


Also what of the Phoinex King? I mean who was he? As what to was his fate?
Asuryan? The primary Eldar god. One might argue that he was the first amongst the Old Ones and, thematically, therefore the first of the Aethyr Gods.

Kage

Sildani
18-09-2006, 13:31
Thought: the Necron Codex states the Old Ones created "the first Eldar". Might this refer to Asuryan, Isha and the rest? If so, might they have created the present Eldar and then passed almost completely into the Warp, becoming the Aethyr Gods?

lord_fenric
18-09-2006, 13:55
See the above. I would argue that they were both. The "original" Eldar gods were the Old Ones, whose function and image/theme laid down the basis of the future warp-gods......

A view i also prescribe to, since the formation of the warp entities are a reflection of the Eldars own reflection within the warp, their primitive view of the old ones would indeed have lead to a symetry between how they percieved their gods and the gods they in turn created.

The question then becomes, since the fall, do the Eldar as a people prescribe any blame on their own gods. Given their rather dramatic fall from grace its not inconcievable that the birth of Slanesh also gave rise to a more pronounced dissatisfaction in their deitys, almost blaming them for not helping. If so, what type of *event* would that cause in within the warp?



Personally I believe that Slaanesh consumed the Eldar Gods, but did not destroy them, but merely changed their form. This is the "Greatest Secret", the premise that at least some of the Keepers of Secrets are the former Eldar gods. Thus one gets a "dark hunter" Keeper of Secret that is the transformed aspect of Kenuous, etc.


I've always liked that idea, with the extension that some of the lesser daemons are those souls of the Eldar whom Slanesh has consumed.

Skrittiblak
18-09-2006, 15:37
I think this is a case of 'make your own story'. The Eldar Gods (and myth cycles) predate the idea that they were created by the old ones to (in part) fight the C'Tan and the Necron threat.

As such the two elements don't always gel as nicely as they might. The fluff seems to leave no doubt that the Eldar Gods were actual beings. My suspicions is that they were daemons in the same form (though much greater) as the Avatar. By daemons I don't necessaril mean chaos creatures, so much as I mean pure beings of the Immaterium.

It is arguable that the greatest threat to the C'Tan was the Immaterium and that the old one somehow created the powerful warp beings that were the eldar gods as a defense against the C'Tan and the Necrons.

The Gods in turn created the Eldar and through the powerful mind of the Eldar (perhaps) they were able to achieve some kind of physical form. This suggests there might be some kind of symbiotic relationship between the Eldar Gods and the Eldar.

The Gods need the Eldar psykes and the eldar were created by the Gods. In time however, the Eldar psyke would be too great and they would eventually unmake their own Gods replacing them with a much more powerful warp entity (Slaanesh).

This is just some ideas. None of this is properly grounded in fluff, but then as I said in the beginning the Old One / Eldar God relationship is not made clear because the fluff is not always consistent. It changes over time depending on who is working at the GW and what new idea the GW wants to throw our way.

Commander Ozae
19-09-2006, 00:04
The eldar gods except for Khaine and the Laughing God were consumed by Slaanesh or at least that seems to be GW's current stance on it. Khaine was about to be consumed when Khorne steped in and saved him while the Laughing God escaped into the Webway and hides there to this day.

Slazton
19-09-2006, 15:45
Khorne did what?

Since when could a Chaos God give a flying monkeys about an Eldar God. Now I think you have it wrong there my friend.

Khaine was shattered and using the last of his will more than likely spreaded himself out to his people, giving them a final gift to continue his battle against SLaanesh.

See in my opinion, as the Eldar fell into the disgraceful lust of Slaanesh etc they ignored their Gods. They physically turned their backs on them and for Khaine to have defended them, well it shows that not all of the Gods blieved them to be too far gone. Or Khaine liked all the murder.....which could have been the reason why he was the dominant God of all the Eldar.

I like the idea you guys are boucning around :) and I am learning alot

ArtificerArmour
19-09-2006, 17:35
Khaine turned into the lesser species the Umbra, iirc from xenology.

Slazton
19-09-2006, 18:23
What is this Xenology thing you all speak of? Am I missing something?

ArtificerArmour
19-09-2006, 18:25
Xenology, the book from black library detailing the anatomy of 40K races, where you been for the last year under a rock? :p

Slazton
19-09-2006, 18:28
In a drug/alcoholic depression wishing for life to end and also not having internet ;)

ArtificerArmour
19-09-2006, 18:34
In a drug/alcoholic depression wishing for life to end and also not having internet ;)

I'd have thought working in a games workshop store would have still enabled you to keep up with black library...:p

Kage2020
19-09-2006, 22:02
What is this Xenology thing you all speak of? Am I missing something?
No, you're not really missing anything. It's one of those annoying little "must have" books that everyone raves about but actually isn't all that great. It's an okay story but the "biology" sections are just plain annoying. For me, anyway.

Kage

Gdolkin
19-09-2006, 23:40
So what's an Umbra and what's it gotta do with Khaine and what do you all mean by Aethyr- just 'warp'?

Kage2020
19-09-2006, 23:45
Aethyr is, indeed, another name for the warp. Technically that 'ae' should be a dipthong... ;)

Kage

Nabeshin1106
20-09-2006, 00:35
Khorne did what?

Since when could a Chaos God give a flying monkeys about an Eldar God. Now I think you have it wrong there my friend.

Khaine was shattered and using the last of his will more than likely spreaded himself out to his people, giving them a final gift to continue his battle against SLaanesh.

See in my opinion, as the Eldar fell into the disgraceful lust of Slaanesh etc they ignored their Gods. They physically turned their backs on them and for Khaine to have defended them, well it shows that not all of the Gods blieved them to be too far gone. Or Khaine liked all the murder.....which could have been the reason why he was the dominant God of all the Eldar.

I like the idea you guys are boucning around :) and I am learning alot

When Khaine was fighting Slaanesh, Khorne stepped in and told Slaanesh that since Khaine is a god of war, he belongs to Khorne. I don't remember if Khaine was defeated at this point or escaped and was defeated later, but that's what happened.

Commander Ozae
20-09-2006, 01:23
It's something like Khorne distracted Slaanesh long enough for the shards of Khaine (or what remained of him) to escape into the infinity circuits of the craftworlds where Slaanesh can't reach him. Probably Slaanesh is hunting for Khaine because he/she wants to destroy one of the last two gods but like the Laughing God he eluded her.

Slazton
20-09-2006, 03:04
I retract my statement. Sorry it was shock and horro on my part. A moment of disbelief if you will.

I do apologise Commander Ozae :)

Nabeshin1106
20-09-2006, 04:38
I thought I heard something about Khaine fighting the Nightbringer once. Can anyone expand on this, or am I dreaming things up?

Hellebore
20-09-2006, 07:30
I thought I heard something about Khaine fighting the Nightbringer once. Can anyone expand on this, or am I dreaming things up?

Perhaps one of my favourite bits of 'new' fluff to appear in a long time, enjoy:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar%2Dmythology/

Hellebore

ArtificerArmour
20-09-2006, 10:46
No, you're not really missing anything. It's one of those annoying little "must have" books that everyone raves about but actually isn't all that great. It's an okay story but the "biology" sections are just plain annoying. For me, anyway.

Kage

Well, I liked it! And you get some pretty pictures of dead aliens...it's actually pretty morbid and dark, shame GW doesn't allow such aspects into their main writing still and leave it to BL, who quite often get it wrong.

LarryS
20-09-2006, 11:50
As for Khaine fighting the Nightbringer, read the new DoW novel Tempest. Granted, I don't take everything BL publishes as canon, but this book rewrites some of the old 1st ed./2nd ed. eldar mythology to include the war w/ the C'tan. The Swords of Vaul mythology is reworked to have Khaine demanding the swords to arm his 100 chosen champions to fight the Yngir/Necron hordes. Not bad as far as retconning goes...

On the other hand, the book also has a solitaire talking...anyone else find that disturbing?

Atherakhia
20-09-2006, 11:59
yeah, seeing as how when a solitaire speaks it's supposed to represent a portent for catastrophe

LarryS
20-09-2006, 12:21
Good, someone besides me read the old WD articles...:D

From what I remember of the old fluff, eldar would stay away from a solitaire at all costs. Don't talk to him, no eye contact, nothing...to do otherwise was to invite some undisclosed terrible fate...(troupe shows up for all night disco party at your house?);)

Suddenly, this one is making conversation?:wtf:

calicojack
20-09-2006, 12:35
But then, of course, in the earliest fluff on Harlequins, it turns out that at least one Solitaire has been living "under cover" on some craftworld or other for ages [either as some technician, or maybe as a hairdresser - which I don't remember]. Hard to do without speaking....

"A solitaire may live unknown among Eldar or even members of another race for years or decades. When necessary [...] he/she will step forth and reveal themselves to the High Avatar of the Masque."

LarryS
20-09-2006, 12:58
Ummm...it doesn't count if you don't KNOW he's a solitaire?;)

Nabeshin1106
20-09-2006, 16:22
Thanks Hellebore, I knew I had read that, just couldn't remember where.

Slazton
20-09-2006, 17:16
I think it was an over-statement on Solitaires. But if he is having a 'casual' conversation about how good those Banshees look in their armour, the author needs to be shot.

Personally I cannot wait for the new Codex. Hopefully it really updates the Eldar to current 40K background. It would be interesting to see their views on the Wars in Heaven and maybe some more information on everything.

Also where can one find this nugget about Khorne stepping in?

Another question: What does Khorne want with Khaine? Or does Khorne respect Khaine as a fellow warrior?

*Just because GW portrays Khorne as a blood frothing bull beast, does not mean he is one entirely. He is a warrior and has warrior pride.

BrainFireBob
20-09-2006, 17:54
Khaine is the Eldar "piece" of Khorne, but because of his infection with Nightbringer's necrodermis, Khorne could not assimilate Khaine. Khaine was also the original source of enmity between newborn Slaanesh and Khorne- "He's Eldar, precioussss, I wantsss it *gollum*" "Mine! Khorne SMASH!"