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UltimateNagash
18-09-2006, 19:41
How come Abaddon hasn't become a Daemon, or mutated much? He's the most favoured of the Chaos Gods (at least, that's what it seems like), so why no Daemonifing?

Melchor
18-09-2006, 19:49
Probably because he has some higher goal.
His goal is to finish what Horus started. And to do that, a mortal form is quite handy. That way, he's not 'confined' to the Warp.

As for mutations, the gifts the Chaos gods bestow upon their pawns do not always take the form of physical mutations. In Abaddon's case, they take the form of blessings and protection.

UltimateNagash
18-09-2006, 20:13
Right, so he can choose whether to have the gifts, or the Chaos Gods just give him other ones?

Melchor
18-09-2006, 20:18
I don't think you can choose which gifts the Chaos gods give you. But I think they do see him as their 'tool' with which to overthrow the Emperor and therefore give him certain gifts.

Usually the Chaos gods don't think that much about which gifts they give to whom.

"Let's see what happens when I give this guy an ass for his head. Should be funny to watch"

Or something like that.

UltimateNagash
18-09-2006, 20:24
That's what I thought, so I was trying to work out why Abaddon was different.
BTW, you got it wrong: the Gods would actually see what happened when they switched the positions of the ass and his head...

Commander Ozae
18-09-2006, 23:59
Abaddon is far more than a mere champion of Chaos, if chaos has a lord it would be Abaddon. For daemonic status, it brings with it incredible power but also certain weaknesses. For example daemons are nearly invulnerable to most normal weapons but silver or holy weapons do tremendous damage to them. Also, if daemons are defeated they are cast back into the warp for a certain number of years. Therefore, although being "human" is somewhat weaker it is much more flexible.

ryng_sting
19-09-2006, 11:31
Background reasons, mainly. Abaddon represents the basic drive of all Chaos Space Marines: to tear down the Imperium, finishing what Horus began. Abaddon is not a rabid devotee of Chaos, festooned with mutations and endlessly chanting the praise of the four. He uses them to further his goals, and they see him as their tool in overturning order. He has much in common with Archaon in WFB. Keeping obth men human is what gives them their edge, and what appeals them to their followers.

Setrus
19-09-2006, 11:42
I'd like to think of it as him not wanting to to get bound by the chaotic gods.
He's their champion, true, but he's NOT their servant as many others. As long as he doesn't dedicate himself and recieves any gifts from any of the gods he's still indipendent.

Or maybe he's using the fact that he's completely neutral (towards the chaos gods that is...) to easier join the different servants together under his forces and doesn't want to risk loosing that ability?

I tell you...trying to get daemonettes and Khorne berzerkers fighting side by side and even get along ( :eek: ) has to be a tough job. And it's probably easier if they don't see him favouring either side.

Skrittiblak
19-09-2006, 11:46
The answer is simple: Abaddon (and most special characters) come from 2nd edition when Daemon Princes didn't exist as they do today.

Setrus
19-09-2006, 12:01
Well...yes...that's correct.

But I think we're trying to explain it in a fluffy way, a way to make the character 'real' if you so will. :p

Couldn't they make a new model anyway?

Melchor
19-09-2006, 12:02
The answer is simple: Abaddon (and most special characters) come from 2nd edition when Daemon Princes didn't exist as they do today.

Well they did... But like you said not as they do today. Stats above 10 weren't exceptional. :evilgrin:

But Daemon Princes *did* exist fluffwise back in the day (Daemon Primarchs for example). They were just too powerful to be in a game of that scale.

malika
19-09-2006, 12:14
So wait, Daemon Princes were more powerful than Greater Daemons? I always thought that Greater Daemons were superior to Daemon Princes.:eek:

Melchor
19-09-2006, 12:17
Back then, they were yes...
But, they weren't really 'official' like they are now.

Skrittiblak
19-09-2006, 12:19
Back then Daemon Princes were hilarious. There were the 4 at the end of the Chaos Codex that were so powerful it was laughable... but it was clear they were just like 'super-greater-daemons' and not some kind of advanced Space Marine.

So all the Chaos Characters, even today, are not daemon princes.

But it would be nice if the GW gave us some new Daemon Prince characters. Typhus for example would have made an excellent statured model. ;)

DantesInferno
19-09-2006, 12:26
The answer is simple: Abaddon (and most special characters) come from 2nd edition when Daemon Princes didn't exist as they do today.

No, that's not the whole story. The current background states something along the lines that Abaddon has been offered Daemonhood numerous times but has refused, swearing to only ascend after triumphantly standing over the ruins of Terra. if he were to reach Daemonhood, he would lose a great deal of his 'independence'. More than that though, becoming Daemonic appears to have the side-affect that you lose a great deal of your motivation for temporal, physical goals. Consider the sum total of all the Daemon Primarchs have achieved since the Heresy.

Temmy
19-09-2006, 13:57
There will be one of two outcomes to Humanities final battle with Chaos. Either Humanity triumphs, and the Emperor ascends to godhood and becomes humanities collective reflection in the warp, or humanity falls, and something else ascends to Godhood and becomes humanities collective reflection in the warp. Emperor or Anti-Emperor. Either way, the warp and mankinds relationship with it is changed forever.

Perhaps Abbadon believes he can become the seed for the "Anti-Emperor" if he puts off his ascension to Daemonhood until the final battle.

Slazton
19-09-2006, 14:15
Abaddon is the clone son of Horus :eek:

And also as it has been mentioned being a Daemon Prince has weakness. Would you want to be tied to the warp like the other Daemon Primarchs? They can't strive very far from the Eye of Terror without a Monolith or something to sustain their powers as they are warp beings.

Abaddon is like, 'Yeah I'm not going to mess up like they did. I'm gonna do what I want and call it quits! Hurah!'

Plus I think the Chaos Gods grow tiresome with him. Maybe Abaddon is due to having himself absorbed as a Chaos Apwn ;)

malika
19-09-2006, 14:20
It was rumoured that Abaddon might be the clone son of Horus, but there is no real proof of this...this vague hint doesnt mean that he actually is the clone son.

Slazton
19-09-2006, 14:44
I believe my smilie indicated that I was merely hinting.....If anything Abaddon is not the clone son as according to Horus Rising book, alot of Luna Wolves shared a common likeness to Horus, hence one called being 'Little Horus' ;).

Abaddon is just loyal, over loyal, like all those tied to their Primarchs were and is fighting a war he believes he is the heir too. Thats another reason he doesn't want Daemonhood. Horus never accepted it. He used Chaos like Abaddon is ;)

Gae'Mot
19-09-2006, 14:45
Usually the Chaos gods don't think that much about which gifts they give to whom.

"Let's see what happens when I give this guy an ass for his head. Should be funny to watch"Except from daemonhood.
Becoming a daemonprince can only happen if one has proven himself to the Gods. It's not a mutation given for fun, but a "reward".

It's also noted in fluff that Abddon has certain power over some daemons (check the story in the necron-codex, where abaddon forces a daemon to do his bidding).

Slazton
19-09-2006, 14:52
Actually most Chaos Champions can force daemons to do their bidding. Its all apart of being a Chaos Champion.

Nine times out of ten, Chaos Gods prefer their mortal worshippers over their own Daemons as they are just manifestations of their own will. Chaos Gods love using and abusing free will. Like any God would. To be able to tie down a person's free will and subjectcate them to your will most be very appealing for a God. Not so if they are already tied to you because they are a manifestation of one of your thought baloons.

nightgant98c
14-10-2006, 05:54
I read somewhere that he has refused daemonhood because he thinks it will cheapen his victory over the Imperium. He wants to beat them as a man.

Lothlanathorian
14-10-2006, 06:20
I thought he refused it so that the Chaos gods couldn't have that much power over him.

jubilex
14-10-2006, 09:35
Don't know if you are aware of this but abaddon is a hebrew word meaning destruction. It's modern understanding however is hell and/or the devil. Earlier, someone mentioned the emperor and abaddon as diametrically opposed candidates for humanities reflection in the warp. If abaddon was named after the modern interpretation (ie THE devil), then that could well be right.

Heero-Severus
14-10-2006, 12:56
Technically Abaddon is a clone son on horus, in much the same way that any space marine shares genetics with its paternal primarch.

I think its because Abbadon is a well balanced individual, that he hasnt given in to one of the gods ;)

The pestilent 1
14-10-2006, 15:32
Back then Daemon Princes were hilarious. There were the 4 at the end of the Chaos Codex that were so powerful it was laughable... but it was clear they were just like 'super-greater-daemons' and not some kind of advanced Space Marine.
)

Literally infact.
The Nurgle one was a hper-advanced Spawn and the Tzeentch one was actually just an uber powerful Greater Daemon. :D
Dont recall the other two offhand.

Sojourner
14-10-2006, 16:31
I think it would be cool if one day he did ascend, and the Imperium is so pissing scared of him that they seek a champion to battle him. He'd probably be way, way more powerful than a greater daemon - so much so that they realise sending the Grey Knights will get even them wiped out.

Hmm. This is where we start thinking up crazy ideas for where to find a good guy to take him on. Soul-Bound Grey Knight Sensei, perhaps?

Voronwe[MQ]
14-10-2006, 16:43
Champions duelling... To quote Birgitte Trahelion in Knife of Dreams:
"Hah! Artur Hawkwing knew it was stupid to duel when he was younger than him!"

BlackLegion
14-10-2006, 16:56
DaemonPrinces ARE very powerful...if in the Eye of Terror. If a DP is anywhere else then his power is only that of the Codex: CSM DaemonPrince.

Lothlanathorian
14-10-2006, 16:57
Abaddon was also a being an American serial killer, not sure if it was Manson or not, said spoke to him. Something about the Apocalypse and whatnot.

And by 'clone-son', I never really thought 'in much the same way that any space marine shares genetics with its paternal primarch.' If you've read the first book in the Horus Heresy trilogy, they point out that there are several of the Luna Wolves that bear a very striking resemblance to the Warmaster, and they call them the 'Sons of Horus'. I think that when they first spoke of Abaddon in this manner, they meant actual clone. They wouldn't go so far as to call every SM a 'clone son of [insert Primarch].

I am the Monkey King
14-10-2006, 16:57
Ah, second edition Demon Princes. They were mad. Just for completeness they were:

Doombreed, first demon prince of Khorne (and presumably first demon prince in existence) a warlord on ancient terra who pleased the newly awakened blood god with his ruthlessness. Basically a super bloodthirster with some fancy anti-psyker stuff. Fought in the Horus Heresy.

N'kari, Slaaneshi cultist who ascended during a chaos assault on her home planet (which was never captured by chaos despite repeated attempts). Had some fancy stuff (can't really remember). Also fought in the HH.

Foulspawn, Chaos Spawn who somehow managed to thrive in spawndom. Had 18 wounds but could hurt himself during the movement phase, and could absorb enemy wounds to heal himself.

M'kachen, most cunning of the Lords of Change, known to spare a worthy adversary for a good fight another day, was never mortal. Basically an uber LOC, but had a fancy rule that he could pretend to be anyone in your army.


On topic, Abaddon hasn't ascended so that he can still leave the EoT on his Crusades.

Romanus
14-10-2006, 19:07
On the topic of the historical reference of Adaddon, his name is directly from the bible and is supposed to to lead satans armies during the Apocalypse. Hence the reference in 40k and the current situation.

I also read somewhere that he has been offered deamoncy by the gods but has rejected it, and that all of the Black legion tend to use chaos as such and not overtly succumb to any particular god, or the associated benefits from such gods as monotheostic worship would bring about.

Cheers, Rom

Llothlian
15-10-2006, 10:46
So wait, Daemon Princes were more powerful than Greater Daemons? I always thought that Greater Daemons were superior to Daemon Princes.:eek:

Back in the day a Daemon Prince could gain unlimited power. He could sponsor new champians of chaos, who then could become Daemon Princes in their own right, which would gain the original Daemon Prince more power, which could continue forever. So the head of a "family tree" of Daemon Princes would be incredibly powerful.

But, Greater Daemons are different again. They are only one step down from the Gods themselves. The tabletop doesn't reflect them at all.

heretics bane
15-10-2006, 11:09
so the head of he deamon princes "family tree" is a grey knights worst night mare?? but how powerful would the deamon princes/primachs be??

BlackLegion
15-10-2006, 13:38
On Armageddon it required a full company of GeyKnights to defeat Angron.
Answers this your question? :D

Commander Ozae
15-10-2006, 23:26
First off, they're primarchs which means their more powerful than anything we've ever seen, and they're daemons who have been around and blessed by their gods for 10,000 years so they'd be pretty dang powerful.