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Commander Ozae
19-09-2006, 00:05
I'm just curious to see people's ideas. If both Y'nnead (eldar god of the dead formed of all the souls in the infinity circuit) went head to head with the Star Child (the Emperor in a warp ascended form fused with the power of the Sensei, his own children) then who would win and why?

Khaine's Messenger
19-09-2006, 00:29
I don't really understand the question. You're asking what would happen if two metaphysical entities made absolute war upon each other? You do realize that such conflicts are often linked directly to the circumstances of "reality" and play themselves out on a far less than literal scale on a daily basis, yes?

In any event, I could see the Star Child winning, especially if the rumored "mentoring" by Cegorach (mentioned in, iirc, Chaos Child) takes place.

Warp_touched
19-09-2006, 00:31
I would place my money on the star god, simply because his power is constantly bolstered by humanity, where as Y'nnead would have far fewer followers/ power.

Gdolkin
19-09-2006, 00:35
Dude, it's senseless enough asking e.g. who would win out of such well-established deities as Khorne and the Laughing God.. with entities as hypothetical and as-yet-undefined as Ynnead and the Starchild, it is my view that you just can't sensibly conceive of them going 'head to head'. Gods aren't pitbulls. sorry.. anyone disagree or agree? let's get theological!
Yeah, what Khaine's Messenger said..

Slazton
19-09-2006, 02:26
I wonder if this thread will be launched to the Chaos Wastes or not and if so: Can I reserve my tickect now? Haven't been there in a while....

But seriously...why would you want to know?

And if the Star Child ever formed, no Xenos will live. Humanity would take over the entire galaxy, able to control Chaos and the Chaos within every human's soul and thus meaning Xenos such as the foul and dreaded Eldar would not stand a single chance against the combimed psychic might of humanity. Shoot, we would be able to create things like Greater Daemons do in the Eye of Terror.

That is the purpsoe of the Star Child. That is what the Emperor is finally striving to achieve.

La'mour Le Breton
19-09-2006, 03:31
Can Gods battle? could say Khorne pick a fight with nurgle? one on one, not through daemons or agents in reality. that would be nutz, im sure no mortal would be able to comprehend the fight

Hellebore
19-09-2006, 04:56
Can Gods battle? could say Khorne pick a fight with nurgle? one on one, not through daemons or agents in reality. that would be nutz, im sure no mortal would be able to comprehend the fight

As Khaine's Messenger said, the battles they have are played out in real space with their own champions as proxies.

The Star Child may or may not be more powerful than Ynnead, I suppose it depends on the soulometer. If one eldar soul is 'worth' 10 human souls, 10x as many human souls will have to be combined to make a god as powerful as an eldar one.

This is merely because eldar souls are much more psychically powerful. Slannesh formed pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things (around ~15,000 years) which indicates how powerful the eldar soul is.

Of course, of an eldar soul is only 2x as powerful, then the starchild would form quicker.

So, it all depends on the soulometer...

Hellebore

Ikkaan
19-09-2006, 10:13
Ynnead is absolution for the eldar race, to repay the galaxy for their deeds. The star child is the emperor reborn, the chance for mankind to raise from superstition and bigotry. Both entities are destined to end bitter times for their respective race.

Both beings would have had a hard time to rise from nothing and had a really long time to think/form their character. The star child would have the knowledge that mankind is not perfect and far from being uncorruptible. Ynnead forms from the knowledge of having performed the biggest crime imaginable (bringing a chaos god into existence). Both should be experienced and wise enough to understand that more unnessesary wars will probably topple their frail empires. I am not talking about peace but of a beneficial pact (with a keen eye on each others actions) between the eldar and the imperium of man. There would be still skirmishes and political predators circling each other.

Sorry, i like the actual state of stupid arrogance between the races, the endless war and everything, that is what makes warhammer great. But if the messias (messiasi ?) come into existence (which will not happen als long as the game is selling) , several thousand years of wise planning will unfold and i can not imagine that it would be something as stupid and simple as "Hello, i am your god. Now go and continue as before so i can see some more carnage."

Skrittiblak
19-09-2006, 11:47
I'll vote Y'nnead because it has the cooler name.

Gdolkin
19-09-2006, 16:20
Y'nnead is indeed a cool name, but how do you say it? Looks Celtic to me, rhymes with Sinead?

Twisted Ferret
19-09-2006, 20:24
Maybe like "Y'need a Kleenex?"

cav da man
19-09-2006, 20:28
to me is rhymes with shiney-d if that makes sense.
More or less what the post before me says (-.- dam these sausage fingers of mine and their slow typing!)

Gdolkin
19-09-2006, 22:51
Nah, i reckon Ynnead rhymes with skin'ed, with slightly more emphasis on the 'ed. When he/she awakes he/she will have braces and boots and listen to ska. Except it's a god or collective spirit or whatever and cannot wear boots, much less kick the Starchild's head (which it hasn't got) in. Is there anything else to be said on the matter? Does Nurgle like Big Macs? To concede to seriousness for a moment, the original Eldar Gods were indeed 'manifest' or corporeal etc. and it certainly makes sense to talk about them getting in scraps- Khaine/Nightbringer, Khaine/Vaul, Khaine/Slaanesh..(not sure about the metaphysics of that last one, but Khaine was an aggy sod eh?) Ynnead, however, and from the little i have gathered about it, is something different, and may not turn out to have a form or presence as such. Dunno, dunmuchcare.. good luck figuring it out.

Commander Ozae
20-09-2006, 01:28
Hey, Gdolkin, shut up. It's my right as a member of Warseer to ask any little insane question my stupid mind thinks up. I was just curious to see if anyone had any opinions on what would happen. I got my answer with the soulometer and Khaine's Messnger so that's what I wanted. Any more speculation is perfectly fine, that's why there are forums.

PS: Nurgle loves Big Macs cause they made with rats, cockroaches and the sweet of hardworking people. Mmmmm

Gdolkin
20-09-2006, 01:59
"shut up" is it? i thought Khaine's Messenger was a tad more intellectually patronising than i was, but hey ho. Of course, the 'soulometer', silly me. Nice point about Big Macs! Slaanesh loves'em too cos they're the height of self-destructive hedonistic depravity.
'soulometer' my rosy-red ****..

Khaine's Messenger
20-09-2006, 02:50
i thought Khaine's Messenger was a tad more intellectually patronising than i was, but hey ho.

I thought so, too.

Of course, I think this "soulometer" stuff is nonsense. It doesn't matter if Ynnaed is made of Eldar souls except in how those souls contribute to its mindset and domains of influence. Its manifest abilities should be beyond vague quantification, but they are going to be nowhere as generic or widely powerful as the Star Child. Again, as said, it has been suggested (perhaps to lead on arrogant humans or through a translation error) that the Star Child is related to yet another of the Eldar race's plans and will eventually be mentored on the finer aspects of godhood by Cegorach, the Laughing God for the purpose of challenging the gods (Chaos Child). Ynnaed's future prospects are a lot more dim and focused.

Hellebore
20-09-2006, 02:59
I thought so, too.

Of course, I think this "soulometer" stuff is nonsense. It doesn't matter if Ynnaed is made of Eldar souls except in how those souls contribute to its mindset and domains of influence. Its manifest abilities should be beyond vague quantification, but they are going to be nowhere as generic or widely powerful as the Star Child. Again, as said, it has been suggested (perhaps to lead on arrogant humans or through a translation error) that the Star Child is related to yet another of the Eldar race's plans and will eventually be mentored on the finer aspects of godhood by Cegorach, the Laughing God for the purpose of challenging the gods (Chaos Child). Ynnaed's future prospects are a lot more dim and focused.

The soulometer was a tongue in cheek expression to get across how gods are formed, and the fact that a god formed from eldar souls will need proportionally LESS of them to form an equivalently powerful entity to that of a human god.

It is a valid concept, because 5 eldar souls > 5 human souls.

Thus an eldar god formed from 5 eldar souls will be more powerful than a human god formed from 5 human souls.

It is a very logical progression, and I don't think that even YOU Khaine's Messenger, can fault it.

Hellebore

Gdolkin
20-09-2006, 03:09
Glad you agree and didn't think i was cussing you too KM, but now i can't quite understand what you just said either. bloody metaphysics.. mythology rules. i love the Celtic flavour of Eldar Mythology, sometimes a little Norse too maybe. So much more than Elves in space. Do people often say "hey, shut up" round here then? was i being too harsh? a duel of wits, ozae, 'test ya ambition but don't try to test my skill cos i'm thinking about all the people i've battled and suckers i've verbally killed'.. "shut up", deary deary me..
PS sorry hellebore, still not seeing it. guess there's too many vague conceptions of 'soul' knocking about here, but i sure wouldn't try and say anything like 'Soul1>Soul2' cos i would have no idea what i was trying to say or what the '>' was doing. sorry guys, i just wrote a 20000 word dissertation on how words come to have meaning and how metaphysical propositons easily slide into nonsense, so i ain't buying anything like a soulometer or mathematics of souls. urr, Eldar are pretty.

Slazton
20-09-2006, 03:18
*pulls out water gun*

Alright chaps we don't need hostility within this board.

Honestly, I'm still shocked to se epople posting in this thread, however, it isa valid if not silly fluff question.

I mean for all we know this question could be in relation to which one will form first? My money is on the Star Child, more humans that Eldar ;)

Khaine's Messenger
20-09-2006, 04:02
It is a valid concept, because 5 eldar souls > 5 human souls.

It's a valid concept, but I don't think it's very useful. The power of these deities is going to stem from their ability to perpetuate themselves, and Ynnaed is simply going to lose that contest as far as I can tell. Sure, Eldar souls make a nice crunchy nougat for the center of a god (as one can see from the "mainstream" hypothesis regarding the Eldar race's position in the creation of the current crop of Warp Powers), but "power"? I'm not quite sure it works that way. If you treat the added power of each additional soul as just adding one, then maybe. But at some point you can't guarantee it works that way, esp. when you get towards the "bigger" gods.

Gdolkin:
Cussing? Pfffft.
Anyway, in Harlequin and Chaos Child, Zephro Carnellian (and by extension, a portion of the Illuminati) is revealed to be a member of a sort of Eldar plot regarding the Numen/Star Child. They want it to come about, and the Eldar Laughing God "will supervise" this new creature (Harlequin, ~p230).

Gdolkin
20-09-2006, 04:05
What's in your water gun Slazton? peace n love, honest guv. i'm rootin for Ynnead, cos humans are stupid. like stupid enough to stay up til 5 arguing about the relative weight or something of the problematic notion of the souls of fictional creatures. and to write an awful sentence like that one. nite all, have a nice one.
ps no offence, im just too tired to understand a word ya saying now.

FlashGordon
20-09-2006, 18:30
What's in your water gun Slazton? peace n love, honest guv.

No i thinkt its...oh my godOMYGOD!!! ITS!!! PURE KONCENTRATED DEATH!!1

Slazton
20-09-2006, 18:33
Its actually from Eureka.....the new Sci-Fi programme. Last night episode...long story.

Souls don't matter. All that matters is that humans will suceed as not all of us are stupid lol. Just the ones that stay up late, unlike me that was my last post and I went to bed ;).

Souls do not matter. Its quantity over quality in this case.

Commander Ozae
20-09-2006, 20:16
Not necessarily. What about Alpha lvl psykers. You must remember that humans are only in the beginning of their evolution into a psychic race and already manifesting individuals of Alpha lvl strength, so humans could become far more powerful than the eldar.

Kage2020
20-09-2006, 21:20
For me? They are going to be roughly equally powered, though separate entities. Twins, almost: one dark and one light. I leave it to you to decide which is which.

As to why? Does that really matter? These versus threads are usually based far too much on personal opinion in a game universe that tends not to quantify things.

Thus, that is for me.

/Kage

Gdolkin
20-09-2006, 21:52
Karandaras versus Ragnar Blackmane? WHOOPWHOOPWHOOP!!...(runs off waving arms):eek:

Stahlgeist
20-09-2006, 22:01
SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!

This week only at the Worcester Centrum, Ynnead versus the Star Child in a no holds barred Steel Cage Match!

You'll pay for the whole seat, BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!

(schedule subject to change without notice)

lord_blackfang
20-09-2006, 22:15
Come on guys, we all know the Eldar guy would win, 'cause the Eldar are simply the l33test race in the world. Even if they've failed at every single thing they've ever attempted to do. Eldar are the best, m'kay? IT'S FLUFFY!

Kage2020
20-09-2006, 22:27
And thus, the thread...

//Kage

Gdolkin
21-09-2006, 00:34
Thus, the thread..what? what does 133test mean? oo i got one- 400 Dark Eldar v. Kharn with a cheese-grater. They'd love it. Do threads like this get closed or just forgotten? I like it. A Howling Banshee vs. a Sister Repentia, in mud. A mega-Cybork vs. an Obliterator, on unicycles. gotta stop i'm having too much fun now. nnn.. monkey knife-fight but with Eversor combat drugs!:skull:

SoloteshExarch
21-09-2006, 04:26
Aren't they supposed to be on the same side? That is, the side against the chaos gods so they wouldn't really be duking it out fluffwise unless they start arguing over whether to kill or convert slaanesh to his "good form." Slaanesh, the god of abstinence...

Gdolkin
21-09-2006, 13:51
Damn, he's right too. i guess the Gods would have the sense to unite against the greatewr threat, even if their races don't. but then Ynnead would stab the filthy mon-keigh god in the back teehee. and Slaanesh aint got no good form, you know addicts, death before deprivation..

Zapp Brannigan
21-09-2006, 13:59
The Imperium and the Eldar don't have the sense to ally whatsoever. The Eldar are so arrogant, and the Imperials so blind that most of them would blast each other to bits before considering the other one worthy of helping them destroy their enemy. The Imperium thinks it's the only one that can fight Chaos, and the Eldar thing the same about themselves. Somehow, I doubt their gods would forget millenia of bloodshed and hatred and just hold hands, even if just for a little while.

Commander Ozae
21-09-2006, 15:41
At the same time, they might realize that together they could destroy the Chaos Gods and then fight each other. At least for the eldar, even their hatred for the mon-keigh is surpased by their hatred of Chaos. Nothing is a greater enemy than Chaos, not even the Necrons.

Gdolkin
21-09-2006, 16:40
That last statement deserves a thread of its own- big question. From the Eldar's or the Imperium's pov, which is the greater threat? Don't the Necrons/C'tan seek to utterly cut off the warp from the materium, thus screwing Chaos, Imperium, Eldar, Ork expansion etc.? That'd change a few things eh? Like so everyone's stranded on one planet or system and the Harvest can just stroll round the universe munching at leisure? Different threats from C'tan and Chaos, but which is more utterly cackingly-terrifying? I do reckon it would be sensible for eldar n humans to have an at least temporary alliance of humanoid warm-blooded pink things against the gribblies, but as Ozae says, too much mutual distrust and arrogance. God i can't wait for the new eldar codex, When? someone tell me when?!

Commander Ozae
21-09-2006, 19:25
The people at my workshop say that the new codex will come out sometime in like February of 2007. Generally spring of next year is around the right time.

Gdolkin
21-09-2006, 21:58
Ta Ozae, thats ages though. why are they teasing me so far in advance? That'll tell us something about Ynnead, i would hope. I wish Codexes were like 300 pages of myth, history and culture. and pretty pictures o'course.

Commander Ozae
22-09-2006, 00:00
I think that GW has a huge (like 30000 page long) book of fluff hidden away in their HQ in Britain that answers all the questions to fluff and story including every possible outcome in the future. They will tempt us with little bits of information on occasion to make sure we continue to buy things from them. I say we raid them and take the book for ourselves. The only problem is that their lawyers would kill me.

Kage2020
22-09-2006, 01:05
LOL. I say "Dream on, Commander Ozae". I'm doubting that GW gives to its authors anything more than the "'Fluff' Bible" for the relevant universe that they're writing for.

Kage

SoloteshExarch
22-09-2006, 05:30
Have to agree with Kage2020, its pretty unlikely that GW would have planned the entire 40k storyline right at start and following the one book the entire way, otherwise the old edition and new edition of the eldar 'dex wouldnt have been so different with the shift from the guardian armies to the focus on the aspect warriors. Thats an example if anything of that "30000 page" book being rewritten along the way in the unlikely event of such a thing existing.

Getting back to Y'nnead and the Star child, I'd say that Eldar hate chaos more than the monkeigh considering how they are just cattle who fight back and the chaos gods could torture their souls for eternity. So it seems the Imperium is the lesser of two evils at the moment, so they would let the star child do his rehabilitation of the the chaos gods saving the Eldar. Problem solved :D

Gdolkin
22-09-2006, 15:14
What is this 'rehabilitation' of the Chaos Gods? Khorne- God of reasonable yet stern telling-offs for naughty people? Slaanesh- God of tender kisses and cuddles for one's true love and moderate responsibility? Nurgle- God of Lemsip and putting your feet up? Tzeentch- God of organising raffles and conjurers for kids parties? Sorry, i couldn't help meself, i do genuinely want to be informed as to what is meant.

Commander Ozae
22-09-2006, 17:44
It's an attempt to look at the Chaos Gods in a different way because instead of being evil they are representing total freedom from all constraints of society.

Khaine's Messenger
22-09-2006, 18:19
What is this 'rehabilitation' of the Chaos Gods?

Balance and wholeness. A return to the golden age when the gods did not take more than their fill and existed within the boundaries of their purpose alongside mortals.

Ever see The Dark Crystal?

SoloteshExarch
23-09-2006, 08:30
Well I said "rehabilitation" because that was what the fluff I read about the Starchild. It says that the Emperor eventually kicks the bucket and only then can he become a god, which when it happens, the Starchild will apparently convert the Chaos gods to their good forms....at least thats what I remember but I wouldnt quote me on this so correct me if I'm wrong.

Commander Ozae
23-09-2006, 15:15
I don't think he converts them into good gods but instead destroys them forever by combining them and then restoring balance to the Warp and ruling over the Warp and humanity as the Numen.

Kage2020
23-09-2006, 17:30
Personally I would argue that the cyclical nature of the Wheel of Time universe by Robert Jordan would be particularly inspirational and evocative of the 40k universe! In other words, you cannot kill Chaos. It will, at some day, come back.

That's just me, though. Then again, I've always been intrigued at an RPG campaign that deals with the End Days. :D

Kage

Commander Ozae
23-09-2006, 18:41
As long as GW makes money off of people like us then there never will be an End Days

Kage2020
23-09-2006, 18:51
That is a given, Commander Ozae. Of course, just because GW isn't going to do sometehing doesn't mean that the fans have to be equally proscribed by the boundaries of capitalism. ;) (Well, as long as it is legal.)

Kage

ReDavide
23-09-2006, 19:06
Nurgle - God of Rebirth
Tzeentch - God of Progress
Slaanesh - God of Art & Love
Khorne - Khaine

I can imagine it, but it would make the 40k universe really boring.

That, or maybe they could keep their current forms but lose their hate for the humanity that created them. Abbadon could lead the 14th Pink & Purple Crusade against the Necrontyr.

Sorry, I'm tired.

Kage2020
23-09-2006, 22:07
Indeed. Thus I'm with the whole yin-yang thing when it comes down to the "defeat" of Chaos and, hence, the previous Wheel of Time reference! :D

Kage

Stahlgeist
24-09-2006, 14:30
Or previous to Wheel of Time, just about the entire body of M. Moorcock's work, esp. The Eternal Champion stuff...and from whence GW gets names like Jaq Draco (sp?) and Jefro Carnelian (and John Constantine, etc ad infinitum).