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Some guy (UK)
26-06-2005, 12:25
Right, cadian Kasrkin. How do men become them? Are they discovered for their talents when they are young, and/or are they men who did acts beyond the call of duty or of a high rank?

Also do they have any augmentations like in space marines: e.g better eyesight, or are these things in the armour suit? Please inform.

C ya
Some guy (UK)

Brusilov
26-06-2005, 12:48
Kasrkins are the elite troops of the Cadian Shock Troops.


From Codex Eye of Terror : The Kasrkin are the elite of the Cadian military. They are marked out while they are still in the Youth armies and enrolled in special academies where they receive training that is more than a match for that provided to Imperial Stormtroopers. They are utterly dedicated to the preservation of Cadia and follow an ethos of duty and honour that is both impressive and intimidating.

As you can see they are normal humans, albeit with superior training. They somewhat differ from Stormtroopers because they do not receive the training for paradropping or infiltration (IIRC the elite entry are actual Stormtroopers, although some squads may receive the training of Stormtroopers). They are a part of the structure of Cadian regiments.
They receive the same equipment as Stormtroopers : hellguns, carapace armour, targeters and grenades. They are in no way genetically modified. They are the cream of the cream of unmodified soldiers fighting for the Almighty Emperor (Blessed be His name).

sigur
26-06-2005, 12:51
I guess that Kasrkin are sorted out just like any elite soldiers: The good ones get stuck into the Kasrkin squads. It's way different with the real Elite (harhar), the Stormtroopers who receive their training at the Schola Progenium and can be promoted to become part of a Commissar squad and become a Commissar later. Many also get into the Inquisition.

They are in no way genetically enhanced, apart from private enhancement done by the parents or whoever before they get recruited.

Brusilov
26-06-2005, 13:01
On the matter of Commissars, I think you're taking things the from way around IMHO. Cadet-Commissars receive further training among Stormtroopers (probably as squad commanders), Commissars are not selected from Stormtroopers.
IMO during training at the Schola Progenium those who show potential as Commissars (especially because of an unflinching faith, strong charisma and will of iron)

Some guy (UK)
26-06-2005, 15:17
Okay, thanks for your help :)

Later, Some Guy

worldshatterer
27-06-2005, 13:47
in the eisenhorn books i believe it was mentioned that they had smart-links with their weapons, but black library products aren't exactly reliable fluff,-

Karhedron
27-06-2005, 14:24
in the eisenhorn books i believe it was mentioned that they had smart-links with their weapons, but black library products aren't exactly reliable fluff,-
Indeed not, I sometimes get the feeling that if you want a definitive answer, read the BL novel and take the opposite of what it says as true. :p

Ahem. Bionics are pretty common in the Imperium and I can easily see elite units such as Stormtroopers being fitted with them. A few nifty techno-upgrades like this are far short of the years of genetic enhancments it takes to turn a human into a space marine.

Delicious Soy
27-06-2005, 14:32
in the eisenhorn books i believe it was mentioned that they had smart-links with their weapons, but black library products aren't exactly reliable fluff,-They had targeters like all stormtroopers. The thing in their guns was some sort of bio-tracker that stopped the gun firing if someone on their side crossed their field of fire.

Sai-Lauren
27-06-2005, 14:42
in the eisenhorn books i believe it was mentioned that they had smart-links with their weapons, but black library products aren't exactly reliable fluff,-
Actually they were IFF systems to prevent friendly fire - basically tech of the week to explain why they didn't just blast Cherubael back to the warp, no matter the cost. ;)

A smart-link could just be something similar to the smart guns in Aliens (basically a camera on the barrel feeding images to a mini-HUD system), or something a lot more sophisticated like a neural jack - so the wielder sees the guns target in their mind's eye, and only need think to fire).

Bionics do seem to be fairly common, but they're mostly used to replace organic parts lost through injury (eg Varl and Feygor in the ghosts novels, Cain's fingers and so on). Only groups like the AM or the Iron Hands seem to actively have elective implantation. One might even suggest there's a risk of cyberpsychosis if someone gets too augmented.

Ikkaan
27-06-2005, 16:52
Small side-note: I read in the Eisenhorn-trilogy that Eisenhorns party were searching for their target at a place named "Kasr [insert second part of name here]". I donīt remember the name correctly (maybe somone can look it up ?) but it appeared to me that "Kasr" is a prefix used by the cadians for naming the Pylons. So they are the...kin of kasr ? ..."like a big standing stone" or something. I think it would be a nice bit of cadian folklore to name their elite forces after the prominent features of their planet (sorry if i state complete rubbish here, just some thought, dont own any rulebooks)

Instigation
27-06-2005, 17:50
I think Kasr was the prefix for naming cadian cities in the Eisenhorn books. The EOT campaign took it a step further and just made it a prefix for worlds fortified by the cadians.

Brusilov
27-06-2005, 17:59
Kasr is a world in the Cadian dialect of low gothic meaning fortress. Thus Kasrkin would mean fortress troops or soldiers as hard as a fortress or something like that.
This derives from the fact that all the fortresses on Cadia are named Kasr.

gunhed
27-06-2005, 19:25
Actually they were IFF systems to prevent friendly fire - basically tech of the week to explain why they didn't just blast Cherubael back to the warp, no matter the cost. ;)

OK, hands up who sees a problem with this IFF thingy.

I'll accept that there might be some situations where having the IFF turned on would be a good thing, but in actual combat conditions, no I can't see how it would fit in with the current thinking in the Imperium.

If the Imperium will willingly sacrifice a whole planet because of a Chaos incursion, why would a squad of troopers have a problem with opening fire on a Daemon Host just because some of their squad are in the way?

Chaos must be stopped at all costs, and no sacrifice is too great to ensure it's stopped.

Phyros
27-06-2005, 21:31
It's because they can't fire into close combat. :p

Brusilov
27-06-2005, 22:40
It's because your comparison is flawed I think Gunhed. You're comparing individuals, albeit highly disciplined and perfectly trained as the Kasrkin, with the great faceless and pitiless machinery of the Imperium, and its embodiment in the Inquisition.
Organisation don't function as people do, I believe it is wrong to compare them to an individual because the actions of social structures are the result of interactions between individuals, of a hierarchy, of a compromise or an order, that does not exist in individuals (unless you're schizophrenic :rolleyes: ;) ).

And again you cannot compare the life of a few individuals with a whole planet. Individuals are worthless, kill one and a thousand will take its place. Planets on the other hand are valuable, there are only so many around and even fewer able to bear life. You don't go squandering them. The decision to unleash Exterminatus is not one taken lightly and may have to be justified by the Inquisitor ordering it.

Adept
28-06-2005, 02:22
The problem I see with it is that the enemy would simply 'tag' themselves as friendly, rendering the Hellguns useless.

Sure, it might only work once or twice, but since Kasrkin and other elite troops are usually used in critical Spec-Ops missions, once or twice might make all the difference.

Delicious Soy
28-06-2005, 02:49
The problem I see with it is that the enemy would simply 'tag' themselves as friendly, rendering the Hellguns useless.IIRC the gun was not baded on wearing a tag, it had something to do with an individual's bioloigcal reading. If the enemy was capable of reporgramming the guns to register them as friendly, the mission would've been compromised long before they departed.

As to why the guns had the feature, the Kasrkin were seconded to Inquisitor General Neve and usually if Inquistors are going in to battle, its a good idea not to shoot them, they might be your only chance against gribbly daemonic death.

Adept
28-06-2005, 09:51
IIRC the gun was not baded on wearing a tag, it had something to do with an individual's bioloigcal reading.

But wouldn't that make them useless against enemy humans? Like Traitor Guard, or heretical humans?

Sai-Lauren
28-06-2005, 10:37
The problem I see with it is that the enemy would simply 'tag' themselves as friendly, rendering the Hellguns useless.

Sure, it might only work once or twice, but since Kasrkin and other elite troops are usually used in critical Spec-Ops missions, once or twice might make all the difference.
One minor point. A lot of current military hardware has IFF transponders to try and eliminate friendly fire, they change the codes regularly to stop the enemy picking up the codes and retransmitting them.

Adept
28-06-2005, 11:41
One minor point. A lot of current military hardware has IFF transponders to try and eliminate friendly fire, they change the codes regularly to stop the enemy picking up the codes and retransmitting them.

Yeah, but it's not normally on an individual soldier level basis, is it? It's mostly on aircraft and such, I believe.

Sai-Lauren
28-06-2005, 12:01
Yeah, but it's not normally on an individual soldier level basis, is it? It's mostly on aircraft and such, I believe.
True, but how little would it take to implement such a system? An IFF transponder and battery (rigged so that it would be impossible to use if captured) , a signal generator and receiver on the gun to inquire of an IFFs who they are, and an inhibitor in the trigger mechanism to prevent it firing, or at least a little light that means the target might be friendly.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-06-2005, 12:53
But wouldn't that make them useless against enemy humans? Like Traitor Guard, or heretical humans?


It's not rigged to not fire on humans. It's programmed to not fine on a few individuals. There bio patterns(what ever that is) is loaded into the gun and voila, you can't shoot them.

boogle
28-06-2005, 15:15
they are also fearless somewhat (although this in not shown in the game), read Malleus for a good example of this

Adept
28-06-2005, 16:17
It's not rigged to not fire on humans. It's programmed to not fine on a few individuals. There bio patterns(what ever that is) is loaded into the gun and voila, you can't shoot them.

Ah, that makes much more sense.

I guess they have to use autopistols to eliminate troublesome commissars then...

Adept
28-06-2005, 16:19
True, but how little would it take to implement such a system? An IFF transponder and battery (rigged so that it would be impossible to use if captured) , a signal generator and receiver on the gun to inquire of an IFFs who they are, and an inhibitor in the trigger mechanism to prevent it firing, or at least a little light that means the target might be friendly.

I agree it's doable. But how could you rig it so an enemy couldn't use it? Codes I guess...

I can see how it might be useful, but surely the rate of incidence from friendly fire (at that level) must be pretty low, and the cost involved in implementing this would be large, to say the least. I wouldn't see the point.

But at any rate, we're getting way off topic and my conundrum has been satisfactorily solved by Gorbad.

highmarshaldave
05-07-2005, 11:26
Yeah, but it's not normally on an individual soldier level basis, is it? It's mostly on aircraft and such, I believe.

Land Warrior and F.I.S.T. anywone?

As has been mentioned repeatedly, Kasrkin are uber-guardsmen, yes? They are drawn from the youth army units and serve as permanent atachments to Cadian Regiments, yes? They are, in effect, standard Cadians with better gear (as opposed to Schola Progenium orphans with a grudge), yes? Meaning that they are, really, just Guard Infantry. . . can you see where this is going?

Dave out.

EmperorsChamp01
05-07-2005, 16:11
Remember that the Cadians are "sorta" Grown for war like the spartans. They send all they men to Camps to train as grunts. But sometimes youll git people who excelle in fighting then they send them to a special camp to train as Storm troopers.

Sai-Lauren
05-07-2005, 16:29
As has been mentioned repeatedly, Kasrkin are uber-guardsmen, yes? They are drawn from the youth army units and serve as permanent atachments to Cadian Regiments, yes? They are, in effect, standard Cadians with better gear (as opposed to Schola Progenium orphans with a grudge), yes? Meaning that they are, really, just Guard Infantry. . . can you see where this is going?

They're standard cadians with better gear if you say units like the SAS, SEALS, Spetnaz etc are normal soldiers with better gear. :)

The Kasrkin are the best that Cadia can both produce and manage to hang onto. The only ones better will probably already have been taken by inquisitors, the assassin temples and similar organisations that you don't say no to, and even they may have missed some.

Lord-Warlock
05-07-2005, 16:40
Then, of course, they're better at shooting than regular Cadians but miss more spectacularly - after all they don't have the Sharpshooters special rule, being BS4...

Rules-related joking aside, not much more to be added. However they're not Cadian SEALS or Spetnaz, as I see it - I always saw them as slegdehammer heavy infantry units that you send into the hotspots to clean them, not commando units you drop behind enemy lines. I'd say Stormtroopers were in ready supply on Cadia already...

Talkie Toaster
05-07-2005, 18:49
It's not rigged to not fire on humans. It's programmed to not fine on a few individuals. There bio patterns(what ever that is) is loaded into the gun and voila, you can't shoot them.
That actually makes sense, if the Kasrkin aren't used to fighting around a group of outsiders they might accidentally shoot 'em. If you can just program it to stop teamkilling people they haven't got in their extensive practice routines, then it might help.

The Inedible
05-07-2005, 21:09
Hmm I don't know if this is further diverting the discussion off course, but the whole IFF system just doesn't fit the grim future of the 41st millenium (as many people have also pointed out). Not to mention what keeps a psyker or particularly nasty bio-construct from labelling themselves as friendly. Powerful psykers could be especially adept at disarming such systems. And in certain situations (see the story seeds of doubt in the deathwing compilation) you may need to kill a formerly friendly inquisitor (in this case one who has been possesed by chaos).

Kensai X
06-07-2005, 00:36
Well weren't the Kasrkin made up by Dan Abnett for the book Malleus and GW just decided it was cool idea and made them into models?

highmarshaldave
06-07-2005, 11:33
Yep, I believe that was the case. . . although did the Caidans not have a similar unit in 2nd Ed?

Dave out.

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 18:12
I don't remember the Kasrkin being mentioned before the Abnett novel. And personnally I did not quite imagine them as Stormtroopers lookalikes when I read it, they reminded me more of hardened veterans (which they obviously are, but in the sense of having less "orthodox" equipment).

MorningStar
09-07-2005, 21:59
From everything I have read about the Kasrkin they do seem to be more of a unit that takes spec forces abilities, with the hammer of a normal infantry platoon. Similiar to say the 82nd airborn, or the 101st screaming eagles.

highmarshaldave
09-07-2005, 22:46
And, fundamentally, with better stuff. In short, they appear to be Stormtroopers (at least in equipment and combat training terms) but with less experties in covert opps etc.

Dave out.

General Samuel of the 101
28-11-2005, 00:25
but models cool
Karskin not bad right
Karskin not bad

Ronson
28-11-2005, 14:05
I see the Kasrkin- and grenadiers in the IG codex- as like the 10th company of the Volpone 'Bluebloods' in Dan Abnett's Ghost series.
The 10th company are armed with carapace armour and hellguns (ie Grenadiers/Kasrkin/stormtroopers) and are the elite of the regiment that you can be promoted into if you perform bravely in action (as trooper Culcis does in between Ghosts book 2 & 3- fighting valorously at Vervunhive in 'Necropolis.')
My IG army uses kasrkin as grenadiers- and they represent the elite company of my regiment.
Good ability = more training and better equipment (and tougher missions...)

:)

Epicenter
30-11-2005, 09:25
(yes, I am returned after years of not posting ... last time I was here, it was still portent. ;) )

The IFF thing for Kasrkin always really bothered me for one thing. A target lock on your guns essentially suggests you don't trust the shooting ability of the user, and indirectly, you don't trust the user of the weapon itself.

I wasn't impressed when Abnett wrote that part into his book. I was more like, "Um...why would you stick that on the weapons of anyone short of raw recruits or penal infantry?"

You would think that the most highly trained of the Cadian troops would have the most training on using a weapon, and have the "apex training" where they'd know where their gun's barrel is pointing at all times and the troops would know what they're shooting at. IRL, high trained troops don't even put their guns of SAFE a lot of the time, since they know how to handle their weapons a lot better than your average soldier. To say that some technological device has to babysit Kasrkin just seems fundamentally wrong because of that.