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marv335
19-09-2006, 22:00
not sure if this is the best place to post this,
however,
"galaxy in flames" by Ben Counter
is available in ottakers book shop now.
i got a copy today.

Lord Dante
20-09-2006, 00:39
Damm - its out? does anyone know if its available in GW stores?

Im fascinated to know if it details the Emp V's Horus, how that plays out, and what happens to Loken - gah!!!!!!!!!!

marv335
20-09-2006, 00:51
it's not out in gw stores yet.

i don't think it gets to the end of the heresy, there are plans for a large series. not just a trilogy.

i'm saving the book for the games day coach.

Dark Apostle197
20-09-2006, 01:14
Lol and the manager told me it doesn't get to GWs till november, you'd think they'd get it first.

Commander Ozae
20-09-2006, 01:32
Amazon says it comes out on October 10th but i've found it in regular bookstores even a week earlier than the schedule, especially Barnes and Noble. And it supposedly just talks about the Istaavan stuff and there's going to be a lot more books telling the rest of the story.

skyfurnace
20-09-2006, 01:38
Amazon says it comes out on October 10th but i've found it in regular bookstores even a week earlier than the schedule, especially Barnes and Noble. And it supposedly just talks about the Istaavan stuff and there's going to be a lot more books telling the rest of the story.

Absolutely it's continuing. As it should. In fact, you can pre-order The Flight of the Eisenstein (http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/1844164594/ref=s9_asin_title_3/103-2046197-2952628) now.

Dark Apostle197
20-09-2006, 01:41
Wait, it is out in barnes n noble now? Just out of curuiosity what state do you live in(if you do not mind me asking) because I want to read it now lol.

The Venerable Archmage
20-09-2006, 16:35
Damn. I thought it wasn't out until October. Still, I have it on preorder in the bookshop at which I work, so I should have it as soon as our suppliers get hold of it, which might be sooner than I thought. Hopefully.

Xhalax
20-09-2006, 16:44
I think I'll wait until GD itself to actually get it and read it on the way back home for the simple reason being....if it's not brilliant, I'll not be impressed and would tell Mr. Counter that to his face.

And needless to say, I have always had a heap of reservations on it and it's made even greater by talking to the local GW manager who has read it and told me his opinions on the novel itself.

But that's not going to stop me reading it and seeeing for myself.

Melchor
20-09-2006, 16:55
I read it, and it's good. It's a great continuation from the first two novels.

And I didn't know there was to be a next installment. I heard it was going to be a series, but that the first three novels were going to be a trilogy in it's own right.

VetSgtNamaan
20-09-2006, 17:18
Not sure when it will see the light of day in canada but I will buy it. I had reservations about the series but it is entertaining.

Cerberus
20-09-2006, 17:45
im pretty sure forbidden planet stores have some signed copies available too.

Xhalax
20-09-2006, 17:55
They probably will as there's was an FP signing session at the weekend.

marv335
20-09-2006, 18:09
i'm going to read mine on the way to games day (i'm leaving at 2230 on saturday night so i'll have plenty of time)
if it's no good, i'm beating the author to death with it. :evilgrin:

Commander Ozae
20-09-2006, 20:17
all the authors are apparently working on it so they are apparently the sum and total of the BL's talent.

x-esiv-4c
20-09-2006, 20:28
Does anyone have a copy they wish to sell me?

Dark Apostle197
20-09-2006, 20:36
I would be VERY disappointed if it is not good. i thought the first two were awsome. With the books I had to read over the summer for school I don't want to read for a loooong time, except for those horus heresy books.

cybertron2000uk
20-09-2006, 21:30
wow...do I want to build loyalists now! ******* cool!!

Wohoo!! Got 3 signed at FP at 5.99 each!!
they had a whole table stacked 4 high! got GK signed too!

Had a look at the quiz book too!....some are really hard! a good read..

told ben that I sold Crimson tears fo £25 quid on ebay!
what a crazy price! I didnt think it go That high!...lol

lol Omnibus soul drinkers cant wait!

Gdolkin
20-09-2006, 21:47
Any more Soul Drinkers ever? IMO, GW have let the BL authors at the series in descending order of masterfulness, i.e. Abnett, MacNeill and Counter are the Gold, Silver, and Bronze of BL authors. Who is writing Flight of the Eisenstein? (please, please not CS Goto.. please) In fact- give Abnett another go, he is (IMO) clearly the Don of bringing this universe to life. These Heresy books are the best thing the BL's done since Eisenhorn, and I reckon i've read 95% of their 40k novels, and am not easily impressed. Can't wait to experience the insight of seeing loyal WE, DG, EC and SoH turn against their treacherous brothers. Too Cool. Crap, yeah, Ferrus, Corax and Vulkan must be in it! wooohhhoooo!

Wazzahamma
21-09-2006, 02:08
The only Primarchs in the book are Fulgrim, Mortarion, Horus and Angron. Though Corax and Ferrus get a mention, along with (poor) Magnus, Russ, Dorn and Guilliman. Here's a repost of something I wrote on the book on another board:

My own opinion is that Counter's skill is not on the same level as McNeill or Abnett, but at the same time, the nature of this book is quite different. It's more action and "thriller" orientated. The words aren't as pretty and the pace isn't as even. Not as much time is given to the characters either. On the other hand, I found the book completely engrossing and a complete page turner.

To be honest, I don't know how much of the above (good and bad) I attribute purely to Mr Counter, or just to the nature of the story. The battle of Istvaan III seems to demand a certain amount of action over character. And the action itself is very high on drama. I did feel some elements were mishandled- like Torgaddon. He was relegated to bit player and not given as much time as in the first two novels, while Tarvitz takes on more time in the spotlight.

In the end though, despite misgivings and certain things that left me unsatisfied, if someone asked me whether of not I enjoyed the book, my answer would still be a big "yes".

Anyway, I'm still hesitant to spoil the book, even though this is a spoiler board. But for those of you who need something now, I'll supply what didn't happen (as far as some of our previous predictions are concerned) in black:


* Torgaddon does not betray Loken
* Lucius and Loken do not have a third round.
* Loken never sets foot on the Eisenstein
* Iacton Qruze is not senile. He's also not Terran, he's Cthonian.

Gdolkin
21-09-2006, 18:37
Oh aye, i was confusing Istvaan 3 with Istvaan 5. Bugger. Good post Wazzahamma, intelligent criticism. I expect to read it in about a day when i get it, whenever thats gonna be. We can never get enough fluff eh fellas? 'fluff' doesn't really do the literature justice sometimes.

Commander Ozae
21-09-2006, 19:28
Abnett rules at expressing characters and making them realistic like in Horus Rising. Counter is great at making epic action like in Dark Adeptus. Abnett, the problem is that with him in almost all his books the end action always feels rushed. Counter makes everything epic and amazing in nature, similar to the way GW says everything is the greatest etc. I'm not diminishing one or the other but saying that both authors are excellent in their particular fields. Combine the two and you have the greatest BL author and a book that shakes the ages.

UltimateNagash
21-09-2006, 20:19
I hope I'm not going mad: I could have sworn I've posted on this thread before, but there's nothing here to say I have...:wtf: :confused:

Xhalax
21-09-2006, 20:28
Any more Soul Drinkers ever?
Who is writing Flight of the Eisenstein?


Yes, there will be another one out next year called 'Chapter War' or something like that. There's probably another book or two attatched to that too in the Soul Drinker series....but my memory is somewhat fuzzy.

You might want to check on the news section of the BL website to see what has been said in pervious posts.

And James Swallow is writing Flight of the Eisenstein. And he's penned the Dues books (Encarmine and Sanguinius) about the Blood Angels and Faith and Fire.
All of which I enjoyed to varying degrees.

SonofUltramar
21-09-2006, 21:25
I've just started reading Galaxy In Flames and have to say that it doesn't have the same feel as the first two but i think this may be down to me being terrified that he has somehow destroyed the events on Istavaan 3 after i read Soul Drinkers and wanted to poke my own eyes out as it was so bad!

Looked at the Dramatis Personae and have to say i'm looking forward to reading about Captain Garro:)

Here's hoping he doesn't screw it up or i'll be assisting marv kill him at GDUK:D

The Laughing Gods Avatar
21-09-2006, 21:40
I was under the impression that it was going to be a 9 book series with a follow up of the various chapters flight to the eye.

The first 3 are the fall of Horus

The second 3 are the start of the war, Horus turning on his brothers, the Emperor finding out and Horus making his way to the sol system

And the final three books are the siege of terra and the death of Horus.

Freak Ona Leash
21-09-2006, 21:49
Uh, so is Torgaddon evil, or does he stay with Garv or what? Please GW, dont make him a traitor, hes too cool to become the one-dimensional "RAWR ME KILL JOO!" all heretics eventually become...

Gdolkin
21-09-2006, 21:50
James Swallow eh? Humm, those Blood Angels books were a wee bit preposterous imo, lots of scenery-chewing and pantomime villainy.. Faith and Fire, while it was good to get into the SoB's heads (steady, i said heads), was likewise a bit clunky compared to Abnett and MacNeill. Hell, i've read em all at least twice though (for brain-candy) and I haven't written any novels so can't call him an amateur (i save that for Goto). Ozae is right, Abnett writes novels with real people in, so to speak, and Counter sure does Epic quite well. I love Soul Drinkers even though it's a load of claptrap- hard to see how much further Sarpedon can take them before they're all dead or dispersed. Just like it's a bit tricky to swallow that the Imperial Fists were divided into 4 chapters, and the Soul Drinkers could end up sooooo different from the others, I really had trouble with a civil war in the Blood Angels. Not trying to bring up the old BL- Canon or not debate, but one does need some heavy disbelief-suspensors to enjoy a lot of it. And i do so enjoy it, i'm a crackhead for 40k fluff. s'all a bit far-fetched anyway eh? Believe what you want, and I will NEVER accept that Ferrus is dead or not able to return. He's getting pished and fighting gods with Russ in the warp or webway or some other imaginary place. Do a good job with Eisenstein Swallow! No cheese!

SonofUltramar
21-09-2006, 22:03
I love Soul Drinkers even though it's a load of claptrap- hard to see how much further Sarpedon can take them before they're all dead or dispersed. Just like it's a bit tricky to swallow that the Imperial Fists were divided into 4 chapters, and the Soul Drinkers could end up sooooo different from the others... Not trying to bring up the old BL- Canon or not debate, but one does need some heavy disbelief-suspensors to enjoy a lot of it.

Or if you're like me you finish the book, tell your friend who recommended to you that he has the same standard in books as an onion and that its all a dream that someone is having, 4 Chapters, Soul Spear, Emperor with wings and a beak called the Changer of Ways or some other BS (no not Ballistic Skill). Worst book i've ever read.

For those of you who have read the Horus Heresy art books apparently Galaxy in Flames doesn't quite follow the events laid out in that particular series but i think they may have suffered from Imperial Propaganda or other such things to explain the differences unless they are massive, will read on and compare:)

Xhalax
21-09-2006, 22:42
I wouldn't say that Soul Drinkers was the worst book I've ever read....but I've read better. Though Crimson Tears was terrible.

I might get my mits on a copy on Saturday (or Sunday morning-ish) and read it on the way down. And if I do that both Marv and SonofUltramar will have to take a number and wait while I beat Mr. Counter to death with the novel.

That's also what I was told about the novel. That it doesn't tie into the HH artbooks. Or vice versa. And since both are supposed to be more or less cannon, someone's messed up somewhere.
But then again......how's to say which is actually want happened. Though personally I'm be more inclinded to believe the artbooks (even though they do lable some of the artwork wrong)

Wazzahamma
21-09-2006, 23:57
Gdolkin, I try to be fair when I look at a peice of writing. I think everyone has read or watched stuff that they know is trash but enjoyed it anyway, and also stuff that's "high art" but found tedious. All depends on what you're looking for in a book. I've found so far that the Heresy novels have given me a little bit of both, which I'm pretty happy with.

As for Torgaddon- his fate is still very much up in the air, even though the latest novel seems to seal it. And people will definitely start forming theories about Aximand soon too...

So, can anyone tell me how the novel supposedly differs from the art books? I haven't read the artbooks (I think they're overpirced for what they are, personally), but I think I have a firm grasp on the fluff contained within. To me, it seemed as if Galaxy In Flames suported the Visions series of heresy fiction?

Commander Ozae
21-09-2006, 23:58
Remember that all of the fluff and cannon out there in the BL books and so forth is all up to interpretation so no matter what you can find points that support anything you say. Sort of like the Bible.

Wazzahamma
22-09-2006, 00:16
Well, yes. To a point. But if the fluff cuts off someone's head and then waves it around, it's hard to deny that character is dead, no matter how much people want the opposite to be true.

Gdolkin
22-09-2006, 10:29
Ok, ok, I'll quit pining for Ferrus.. Wazzahamma, u r totally right about trash/art, .. Ozae, u might wanna steer clear of the Bibble, i'm a hardcore atheist meself but ya never know if you're upsetting fanatics on t'interweb- i swear i once saw some guy kick off when someone said the Emperor was Jesus. Soul Drinkers a cracked-out hallucination eh? yeah, why not. The whole mutation thing is silly innit, 'I'm a giant psychic spider but the Emperor still loves me', yeah..
..and the "Architect of Fate"! duh! Tzeentch perhaps? They knew about Tzeentch right? Idiots..

Londinium
22-09-2006, 17:01
Overall I found Galaxy In Flames to be inferior to both the previous books, it's length is also substanially less, although hidden by the use of a larger font to space it out over a similar length of pages as Horus Rising and False Gods.

This isn't to say it was a bad book at any means, it's actually a very good book, it just doesn't hit the heights that they did. These are some of my impressions, full of spoilers, so don't read on if you don't want to know:

[SPOILERS!!!!]

. Whats with the reoccuring theme of music in this series, it's as if Counter couldn't think of anything else to make the Isstvanians different to Imperials, it wouldn't be so bad if Horus Rising had already used a slightly alternative concept for the Interex.
. Torgaddon's death on Isstvan III was tragic and he stays loyal to the end despite some people's fears, although I nearly had a heart attack early on in the book when the Book of Lorgar projects that vision of him turned to Chaos while Loken is in the shrine, which incedentially could be where the image of him as a Chaos champion in the artbooks comes from.
. Loken could possibly, just possibly be still alive, as the book never definitively kills him as it does with Torgaddon, although it'd require quite some creative thinking to get him out of the spot he's in.
. The Book confirms Isstvan to be the correct spelling, rather than the better looking (imo) Istvaan.
. Very few continuity errors, aside from a rather stupid mentioning of Ferrus Manus as Ferrus Magnus, the book does take the artbook view of things though, Ferrus Manus dead (hinted at only) and Fulgrim having been converted before arriving at Istvaan III, where the traitor legions where not the vanguard of a force sent by the Emperor, but called there by Horus. A big mistake imo, the old version was much better.
. Lucius's fall has begun and has been dealt with rather well, although I felt a sense of dissapointment that he had to fall, he was a good character and his early defence against the traitors on Istvaan III was suitably heroic before his personality started to get the better of him.
. Garro and the Eisenstein, has been changed from a collection of loyalist marines from all the chapters, to merely deathguards along with the addition of Iacton Qruze and Sindermann, Oliton and Keeler from the civilian core of the Great Crusade. But nevertheless he survives rather intact through the reimaging of the Heresy.
. Fabius Bile was up to his old tricks long before he turned to Chaos, apparently sanctioned by Fulgrim in his drive to ultimate perfection, even to the degree of using Xenos biology on his marines, i.e Eidolon who has some kind of pyschic scream via messing around with the gene seed.
. Horus Aximand continues his feelings of unease that developed on Davin, and at the end it's hinted he's becoming extremely uncomfortable with whats going on.
. Horus has now taken to sitting on a throne and lording it over his brother Primarches at Lupercal's Palace, a massive deviation from the man seen at the Strategium in Horus Rising, incedentially the Strategium is now openly a Chaos shrine, and the ship is slowly being converted all over to match the new ideals of Horus.
. Horus and Fulgrim nearly come to blows towards the end of the book, over Fulgrim's failure to convert Ferrus Manus, and Fulgrim getting agitated about his brothers attitude towards him, as some kind of subordinate rather than equal. I want to know why on earth Ferrus Manus was considered material for conversion anyways ?
. Kharn is in the book, before his fall he seems a rather noble intelligent character although still very much a World Eater in his bluntless and not taking any nonsense. Funnily he's described as a calming influence on Angron early on. After his fall (which isn't described) he's the same old lovable maniac we all know, but he gets owned by Loken on Isstvan III, getting impaled on a Predators spikes, how many times can this guy die ? (although he's not confirmed as being greivously injured, he dissapears with the Predator).

[/SPOILERS!!!]

Thats about all the vaguely intresting stuff I can think of for now, might add some more later on, if I can remember it, or if people request more stuff.

Gdolkin
22-09-2006, 17:47
Wish i hadn't read those. Not liking some of those developments. bah. Shorter book with bigger font eh? i hate that cheap trick. Abnett rules the roost.

Londinium
22-09-2006, 19:55
Wish i hadn't read those. Not liking some of those developments. bah. Shorter book with bigger font eh? i hate that cheap trick. Abnett rules the roost.

Yeah it's really noticable aswell, when I first picked it up at Ottakars and had a flick through, I thought wait a min have I got the right book here ? as I was expecting the same kind of font as the previous two and same length. I reckon they could have fit Istvaan V into the book aswell as Istvaan III had they used the same font, but it seems thats being left for the Flight of the Eisenstein, if only that was out in a few months instead of April 2007 :mad:

Incedentially which developments didn't you like ?

Wazzahamma
23-09-2006, 03:06
Londinium, I noticed the font difference too. I think that's another reason I got through the book so damn quickly. Anyhow, I've written some responses to your spoilers below...


[SPOILERS!!!!]

. Whats with the reoccuring theme of music in this series, it's as if Counter couldn't think of anything else to make the Isstvanians different to Imperials, it wouldn't be so bad if Horus Rising had already used a slightly alternative concept for the Interex.


I think that it's all bound up in Slaaneesh and sensory stimulation. It's a turning point for Lucius when he gets so bound up in the music and the excitement that it gives him, and he becomes a slave to the 'murdering song'.


. Torgaddon's death on Isstvan III was tragic and he stays loyal to the end despite some people's fears, although I nearly had a heart attack early on in the book when the Book of Lorgar projects that vision of him turned to Chaos while Loken is in the shrine, which incedentially could be where the image of him as a Chaos champion in the artbooks comes from.


Ha. I freaked out as well. In any case, I think that the vision could point to more from Torgaddon down the line...


. Loken could possibly, just possibly be still alive, as the book never definitively kills him as it does with Torgaddon, although it'd require quite some creative thinking to get him out of the spot he's in.


Mmmm. As far as deaths go, it wasn't definitive, was it?


. The Book confirms Isstvan to be the correct spelling, rather than the better looking (imo) Istvaan.


I didn't even notice!


. Very few continuity errors, aside from a rather stupid mentioning of Ferrus Manus as Ferrus Magnus, the book does take the artbook view of things though, Ferrus Manus dead (hinted at only) and Fulgrim having been converted before arriving at Istvaan III, where the traitor legions where not the vanguard of a force sent by the Emperor, but called there by Horus. A big mistake imo, the old version was much better.


Well, the book did have about half a dozen spelling errors, but that's more the editor's fault than Counter's. I can forgive "Ferrus Magnus". Though I don't think that his death is hinted at, at all. That won't be till the Dropsite massacre.

And yeah, I do prefer the older version where Fulgrim isn't already possessed and complicit in the rebellion.


. Lucius's fall has begun and has been dealt with rather well, although I felt a sense of dissapointment that he had to fall, he was a good character and his early defence against the traitors on Istvaan III was suitably heroic before his personality started to get the better of him.


I thought that Lucius was still quite selfish in his heroism at first, though there were glimmers of the marine he could have been if not for that pride that his legion instilled in him.

I felt a sense of real dread at the appearance of Angron on the battlefield. I would've run like a little girl...


. Garro and the Eisenstein, has been changed from a collection of loyalist marines from all the chapters, to merely deathguards along with the addition of Iacton Qruze and Sindermann, Oliton and Keeler from the civilian core of the Great Crusade. But nevertheless he survives rather intact through the reimaging of the Heresy.


I guess that's the reason the Deathguard were barely featured in this book, despite being heavily involved in Istvaan III, since I assume they'll be focused on in Flight of the Eisenstein.


. Fabius Bile was up to his old tricks long before he turned to Chaos, apparently sanctioned by Fulgrim in his drive to ultimate perfection, even to the degree of using Xenos biology on his marines, i.e Eidolon who has some kind of pyschic scream via messing around with the gene seed.


Beginnings of the Noise Marines...


. Horus Aximand continues his feelings of unease that developed on Davin, and at the end it's hinted he's becoming extremely uncomfortable with whats going on.


Two possibilities come to my mind:

* Aximand is so grieved by his actions that he somehow ressurects Torgaddon as a chaos creature.

* Aximand is so grieved by his actions that he dips the shields on The Vengeful Spirit during the seige of Terra....


. Horus and Fulgrim nearly come to blows towards the end of the book, over Fulgrim's failure to convert Ferrus Manus, and Fulgrim getting agitated about his brothers attitude towards him, as some kind of subordinate rather than equal. I want to know why on earth Ferrus Manus was considered material for conversion anyways ?


Because, he and Fulgrim are two sides of the same coin. They're extremely close to one another due to their constant need to strive to better themselves- both seek to be as perfect and as strong as they can be, and both seek to remove and reject all weakness and unworthy attributes. And they both do this to the point of fanatacism.

They simply have two opposite ways of approaching the same goal- Fulgrim believes improving marine biology is the way to strength, while Ferrus believes that the flesh is weakness.

The novel demonstrates this with the Emperor's Children seeking to perfect their legion through biological engineering. And we all know that the Iron Hands seek to perfect themselves through mechanical engineering.

That sort of obsessive pride can lead to chaos...


. Kharn is in the book, before his fall he seems a rather noble intelligent character although still very much a World Eater in his bluntless and not taking any nonsense.


I liked him too. He seemed to have a touch of sadness to him, of resignation to the role of the World Eaters, in the same way Ehrlen did.

[/SPOILERS!!!]

Chainsworded Codpiece
23-09-2006, 14:00
ya never know if you're upsetting fanatics on t'interweb- i swear i once saw some guy kick off when someone said the Emperor was Jesus.

Yeah, that was me. And I didn't get upset because of the poster said that the Emperor was Jesus, I got upset at the incredibly easy-cop-out way the poster compared the two, as if similar details in their stories made their stories synonymous.

It wasn't a religious problem. It was a problem with a poster who thought he was smarter than he was, saying something that was "offensive" because it was patently insulting to one's intelligence. Oh, and I'm not a Xhristian. At all. So I wasn't trying to defend the Messiah, or anything:).

Anyhow, the overwhelming feeling I'm getting from the posts here is that GIF is good as a "mid-point event" novel, where a bunch of things happen, as opposed to the first two, which were focused more on the building of character interplay. Interesting.

I felt that False Gods wasn't as convincing as a a "character interplay" novel as I would have liked, anyhow. But certainly, it was better than I had imagined it would be. I suspect, with all I have read here, I'll even give Mr. Counter's book a read...

Commander Ozae
23-09-2006, 15:13
I thought False Gods was a great development in the whatever hot chick's name is who becomes a saint. It's really interesting to see how the Ecclessiarchy is founded. Also, the development of how Horus fell to Chaos was pretty cool too.

Havoc
23-09-2006, 18:45
I finished it today, very good read, didn't like it as much as the first 2 but all my favourite charecters ae dead, except 1 and even he was kinda portrayed badly.

Londinium
23-09-2006, 19:28
[SPOILERS!!!!]

. I think that it's all bound up in Slaaneesh and sensory stimulation. It's a turning point for Lucius when he gets so bound up in the music and the excitement that it gives him, and he becomes a slave to the 'murdering song'.

I didn't think of it that way, but it makes much more sense now. Further differentiates why he'd turn to Slaanesh rather than Khorne aswell, as he does have some of the facets of a Khorne worshipped, such as extreme martial pride and a desire for battle.

Ha. I freaked out as well. In any case, I think that the vision could point to more from Torgaddon down the line...

I've heard a few people say that, but I've got issues with it, the guy is missing a head and is dead, now if he was raised as some kind of nurglish creature then possibly, but somehow regrowing his head and being a Chaos Space Marine is a bit beyond the realms of belief imo, I'm gutted he died though, I was convinced himself and Loken were going to end up on the Eisenstein somehow and become some of the founding members of the Grey Knights.

Mmmm. As far as deaths go, it wasn't definitive, was it?

Well it never definitively kills him, he's buried under rubble and all sorts, so he could technically survive a bombardment if he's extremely lucky, but then theres the issue of him actually getting off the planet, it's a dead ruin now, so transport off it, and no ones likely to visit it any time soon.

Well, the book did have about half a dozen spelling errors, but that's more the editor's fault than Counter's. I can forgive "Ferrus Magnus". Though I don't think that his death is hinted at, at all. That won't be till the Dropsite massacre.

And yeah, I do prefer the older version where Fulgrim isn't already possessed and complicit in the rebellion.

Ah, this is where I have probably got it wrong, I got confused with when Fulgrim actually lopped his head off, my mistake. And I totally prefer the old way, especially with Fulgrim storming across the galaxy so fast, such is his anger that he gets there long before the other legions, having he already compliant just doesn't sit with me.

I thought that Lucius was still quite selfish in his heroism at first, though there were glimmers of the marine he could have been if not for that pride that his legion instilled in him.

I felt a sense of real dread at the appearance of Angron on the battlefield. I would've run like a little girl...

Yes Lucius was arrogant, but to me it was playful arrogance to start with before it started developing into something darker when he got agitated with Saul.

Beginnings of the Noise Marines...

Would make a lot of sense, but I'd have thought that Fulgrim would have been appalled at messing around with Xenos biology, especially considering his utter belief in humanities perfection, look at what happened to the Laer.

Two possibilities come to my mind:

* Aximand is so grieved by his actions that he somehow ressurects Torgaddon as a chaos creature.

* Aximand is so grieved by his actions that he dips the shields on The Vengeful Spirit during the seige of Terra....

I seriously hope not in regards to the first point, as I expanded on above, and as far as I knew it's always been Horus who lowered the shields as he knew he couldn't win the war at that stage, unless he killed the Emperor, he lured the Emperor on board in the gamble he could end the war then and there, and very nearly did

Because, he and Fulgrim are two sides of the same coin. They're extremely close to one another due to their constant need to strive to better themselves- both seek to be as perfect and as strong as they can be, and both seek to remove and reject all weakness and unworthy attributes. And they both do this to the point of fanatacism.

They simply have two opposite ways of approaching the same goal- Fulgrim believes improving marine biology is the way to strength, while Ferrus believes that the flesh is weakness.

The novel demonstrates this with the Emperor's Children seeking to perfect their legion through biological engineering. And we all know that the Iron Hands seek to perfect themselves through mechanical engineering.

That sort of obsessive pride can lead to chaos...

That helps a lot, actually makes so much sense, I just never thought of it that way, hard to say which Chaos god he'd turn to though, possibly Khorne via his obessive pride ?[/i]

[/SPOILERS!!!]

TCUTTER
23-09-2006, 19:50
in the words of lord vader nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, im so peeved at torragaddons fate, its always the way, the cool character dies, i wish hed joined the bad guys, would been much better, i like how khan is a nice guy at first adds irony to what he gets like, i guess he like scorpion from mortal kombat in that he never ever stays dead

Wazzahamma
24-09-2006, 00:30
[SPOILERS!!!!]


I've heard a few people say that, but I've got issues with it, the guy is missing a head and is dead, now if he was raised as some kind of nurglish creature then possibly, but somehow regrowing his head and being a Chaos Space Marine is a bit beyond the realms of belief imo

Fair enough. The only thing that makes me think that besides the Visions of Death picture, is that the description of chaos Torgaddon in Loken's vision seems quite battle scarred, which makes me think that he's been stitched back up in a frankensteinish kind of way.


Ah, this is where I have probably got it wrong, I got confused with when Fulgrim actually lopped his head off, my mistake. And I totally prefer the old way, especially with Fulgrim storming across the galaxy so fast, such is his anger that he gets there long before the other legions, having he already compliant just doesn't sit with me.

I thought that was very cool too, Fulgrim is so furious at the betrayal but is the next to fall. It's the only thing I have a real issue with.

Anyway, it means we get to see the Ferrus v Fulgrim fight in the novels, which I'm looking forward to.


Would make a lot of sense, but I'd have thought that Fulgrim would have been appalled at messing around with Xenos biology, especially considering his utter belief in humanities perfection, look at what happened to the Laer.

Yeah, I was surprised at first as well, but then I remembered that Fulgrim has supposedly been possessed by a daemon for ages, and it's been subtlely manipulating and influencing his thoughts and actions. Fulgrim without the daemon would never have considered it, but with it whispering in his ear...

I seriously hope not in regards to the first point, as I expanded on above, and as far as I knew it's always been Horus who lowered the shields as he knew he couldn't win the war at that stage, unless he killed the Emperor, he lured the Emperor on board in the gamble he could end the war then and there, and very nearly did

Yeah, but they seem to be revising older fluff quite a bit. Just putting it out there as a possibility. I'm sure he's going to do something that Abaddon won't appreciate though.

That helps a lot, actually makes so much sense, I just never thought of it that way, hard to say which Chaos god he'd turn to though, possibly Khorne via his obessive pride ?

Yeah, or possibly just chaos undivided. But I guess Horus and Fulgrim both underestimated Ferrus' loyalty. Who knows though? The whole idea of chaos is that, given the right circumstances, anyone could fall to it.

[/SPOILERS!!!]

thomas92
24-09-2006, 18:57
hey

a question
will there be salamanders because i thought that the salamanders fought on isstvaan

Daemonslave
24-09-2006, 19:22
hey

a question
will there be salamanders because i thought that the salamanders fought on isstvaan

Yes, now that Horus has got rid of all the potential loyalist marines within their own legion they will now set up camp on another planet in the istvaan system. There they will await the retalitory force of seven legions sent by the Emperor, which include the Salamanders, and we all know what happens then...

Londinium
24-09-2006, 19:37
hey

a question
will there be salamanders because i thought that the salamanders fought on isstvaan

The Salamanders fought on Isstvan V not III, I'm assuming V will be dealt with in the next Book (The Flight of the Eisenstein), Isstvan III is just purging all the loyal elements within the traitor legions.

Commander Ozae
24-09-2006, 22:55
I thought Flight of the Eisenstein is just that, focusing on Captain Garro and his loyalists who are fleeing to join the Emperor and warn him of Horus's betrayal so if you're looking for Istavaan then we'll probably have to wait for the next book in the series.

Londinium
24-09-2006, 23:11
I thought Flight of the Eisenstein is just that, focusing on Captain Garro and his loyalists who are fleeing to join the Emperor and warn him of Horus's betrayal so if you're looking for Istavaan then we'll probably have to wait for the next book in the series.

I'm just finding it hard to work out how they can make the Eisenstein's journey fill up a whole book, unless they use even bigger print :p, thus why I think it will probably include the massacre at Isstvan V aswell, just to pad out the book as they are interlinked subjects, could be totally wrong though, was just my thoughts.

squigsnok
25-09-2006, 17:22
I'm just finding it hard to work out how they can make the Eisenstein's journey fill up a whole book, unless they use even bigger print :p, thus why I think it will probably include the massacre at Isstvan V aswell, just to pad out the book as they are interlinked subjects, could be totally wrong though, was just my thoughts.

Yeah, but if you'd asked me before if they could fit only Istvaan III (I will continue to use Istvaan not Isstvan, It's cooler....:D) into a book i'd have said no, It'd last about 5 chapters. But they managed it. And to be honest the Istvaan V dropsite massacres deserve a book all to themselves anyway now, after the depth they went into for GiF.

Commander Ozae
25-09-2006, 17:36
Eisenstein was trapped in the Warp and they had to fight through basically an army of daemons to reach the Emperor. It's probably going to be an Odyssey style book with lots of adventures and trying to reach the Emperor in time. After this book will come the Istavaan V Drop Site Massacre, followed by Horus's approach to Terra, and then the Siege of Terra itself (just speculation)

Gdolkin
25-09-2006, 17:52
The whole history and prehistory of the heresy, Imperium and 4ok universe is one of the greatest epic legends ever told.
easily comparable to LOTR, starwars etc. there's a lot of it out there but look how many of us LOVE this ****!

Lostanddamned
26-09-2006, 18:43
Well this book ended on a bigger downer than ROTS and ESP put together...

I loved it though, really enjoying the whole series.

I dont want loken to be dead

Slazton
26-09-2006, 19:39
You know I actually like Ben Counter. I mean he's not perfect and doesn't have Mr. McNeil's flare and charm or Mr Abnett's killer characters, but Mr Counter can lead me into a believable world where the storyline flows and makes sense.

Personally I just hope they don't use all the Black Library authors, becuase if they do, that could potentially mean that dude who wrote the Dawn of War series could write a Hrous Hersey book.

As for issues with the fluff etc....personally I'm reading these books as there is no prior fluff on the Horus Hersey. That I never knew a single thing and this is how its going to be....

As its best to read it with a dose of salt, this way you appreciete the storyline rather than the fluff incosistencies....

Gotreksbrother
26-09-2006, 22:00
Points of Criticism:

What happened to the Dies Irae?? What happened to Ancient Rylanor?? What happened ST and Vipus?? And what happened to Lucius after his fight against ST??

I finished the book in two days reading and must say that the previous two books outclass this one but not because of the quality of writing but more because of the quantity...The fight between Maggard and IC also seemed rather short and could have been better, and they should have made Lucius fight Angron or Eidolon at some point, would have made a killer duel!

Other than that I liked the book, but I feel the Isstvanians were not really described wholly and that they deserved more of a proper presentation. I also agree that the Mournival fight could have borne a few more pages and been a lot more epic

The transformation of the the Vengeful Spirit is also rather too drastic and quick and I felt that Eidolon trying to get Tarvitz to turn by showing him Fabius works was a bit wierd, I mean, why did he want Tarvitz whom he loathed anyway, to join their ranks?

Great battles are narrated all through the book, and they are indeed very epic and heroic.

I felt the characters and emotions displayed being really good in many cases, though the langauage could have been in some cases a bit more refined and duly heroic. Phrases like: "And so it begins", or Horus calling Maloghurst "Mal" (like he is an old pal from his school days) or the rather wierd use of the word "****" (just sounds too out of place in the Epic settings of the Heresy for my taste) are examples of poor writing, but overall it was good enough...

The attack on Prospero also seemed rather disregarded and left out with only a shallow mention...

But I sure cant wait to get myhands on the next one as it promises the intervention of many more legions and a final answer to some of the questions left in GiF

Cheers, GB

Fir Lirithion
26-09-2006, 23:35
I haven't read the book, but reading the spoilers made me giddy. Especially about Aximand.

cailus
27-09-2006, 01:08
Points of Criticism:

What happened to the Dies Irae??
SPOLIER:
It lives a long life until it gets turned to slag in Storm Of Iron, which is set just before the 13th Crusade.



I felt the characters and emotions displayed being really good in many cases, though the langauage could have been in some cases a bit more refined and duly heroic. Phrases like: "And so it begins", or Horus calling Maloghurst "Mal" (like he is an old pal from his school days)

I like the fact the Horus behaves like a human being (in the first two books I've read anyway). Maloghurst is aboth a close firend and valued advisor to Horus. They've been fighting together for probably the entire 200 years of the Great Crusade. That's a long time.

Remember in False Gods how Horus is overjoyed to see Captain Serjanus. The Mournival and Maloghurst are probably the cloesst thing Horus has to friends.

So calling him Mal is in my eyes appropriate.

Horus's great qualities were that he was not only a brilliant tactician and warrior, but he also had a lot of charisma and up until his fall anyway, he seemed to have had a lot of respect for his subordinates.

Rom
27-09-2006, 09:06
Apparently there will be around 20 books in this series! so i was told! wink wink;)

Lord Dante
27-09-2006, 10:35
Points of Criticism:
What happened to the Dies Irae?? What happened to Ancient Rylanor?? What happened ST and Vipus?? And what happened to Lucius after his fight against ST??

Well the Titan was probably taken back to the fleet.
Rylanor is a good one - we hear nothing of him but I have a sneaking feeling that hes going to be doing some digging. Rylanor is one of the 'old guys' he probably hates what he ses.
ST and Vipus will saddley have died in the Orbital bombardment Horus finnished with.
Lucius will have just ran back to his ranks and file troops.

Overall I was utterly captivated by this book - it almost hurt to read at some points. Loken and Torggadon were such huge fun together and thier decent into this maddness was painfull. the loyalist stand on I3 was quite incredible but the way its written always makes the outcombe one sided - I just kept hoping that some characters like Viper etc would make it out...
I even felt sorry for Aximand, he clearly didnt enjoy killing Torggadon and i hope that he can be saved before its to late.

By the end of the book Ben Counter had me hating Horus, and thats a good thing because when he finnaly dies ill now be happy before this, the other two books had made me see how great Horus was, again, this is just good writting.

I have heard some talk about parts being missed out - like the SW raid on prospero but this story is told from the perspective of the Lunar Wolves and the ppl directly involved with them so im not to un-happy to heare about Lemun Russ, and considering im a SW fan, thats always hard to swallow.

Special Mention here must go to Saul Tarvitz - what an utter Hero!! - defiant untill the end. and hes cost Horus valuable time, its the first mistake Horus has made and admits to making.

Cant wait for the next the 6 books - these are trully captivating novels.

Slazton
27-09-2006, 11:54
So we miss out on the Space Wolves betrayel then? I really wanted to read that as I want to know how it is looked at. Was it really the Wolves assaulting the Thousand Sons while they were still loyal or was it really neccassary? The two Index Astartes really give different opinions and I wanted to know which was more accurate....

I like what Dante is saying that we learn to hate Horus, as I was growing quite attached to him and did not want at the end of this series going: 'I wish Horus won' and I'm a Chaos fan lol.

I really look forward to reading this book even if some cricticsms have arisen, but alas, Mr. Counter isn't perfect, he's more of an aquired taste and so far I haven't found any real problems with him. Granted I read Star Wars books that the authors were worse ;)

Isambard
27-09-2006, 12:47
Just finished. I loved it to bits! I read the whole thing (along with the other 2) with a sense of dread and horror, my mind begging the characters to turn back and not do it!

Lord Dante
27-09-2006, 13:00
same here - I felt so sorry for ST and Vipus, and my heart sank for Torgaddon, even lil Horus...
It was so epic and moving. I was genuinly sad y the end of it - I liked Horus in the first few books, he had this calmness about him, no I hate him, hes an utter **** - Go Emperor!

Havoc
27-09-2006, 17:41
I wonder if Loken does survive, his last part was a little vague, Tarvits I imagine plus all his men were most likely obiterated by the warmaster's bombardment, I'm really looking forward to flight of the einstein, wonder ho that will end

heretics bane
27-09-2006, 18:21
and what happened to kharn?? after he got ran over?? and counter left alot of things unfinshed which i didnt like along with some part of the battles( a bit bland)

Lord Dante
27-09-2006, 18:49
I dont think you need find out there and then tho - we know of course Kharn survived and to be honest, bar a few holes in his chest im sure he will have been alive.

I dont think BC ever leaves anything out - hes telling the story from the point of view of certain characters, unless Loken followed Karn, we wont know his fate untill he meets another main character or the story is told from Karns point of view.

Its like the Prospero Battle - if this was written from the point of the Space Wolves we would have learnt the details there but to be honest, its probably not that important for now.

Daemonslave
27-09-2006, 18:55
I'm really looking forward to flight of the einstein, wonder ho that will end

Albert has a ship named after him?:p

Seriously, I am looking forward to it too. I also hope that at least one of the other stand alone novels from the Heresy era will focus on the events of Prospero.

The Venerable Archmage
01-10-2006, 11:47
On the subject of the Eisenstein, [spoilers]:I'm sure that whilst we only know about Garro, his Deathguard, Iacton Qruze and the remembrancers being on board, it isn't as if we know the full details of its escape. I think there should be plenty of opportunity for it to pick up some marines from the other legions before they enter the warp. All will become clearer in the Flight of the Eisenstein.

ML Kurze
01-10-2006, 16:45
I think that Counter did the right thing to Loken, Torgaddon and Saul. The loyalists were small in number, so there could be only one outcome and they did well thanks to Counter's penning. The only thing that irks me is that the entire Imperium will never know that a small number of astartes from the traitor legions held true to their oaths, bought Garro time to warn the emperor and in the end, gave their all so that the Imperium could live.

Fulgrim's Gimp
01-10-2006, 21:45
It concerns me that there are so few loyalists on the Eisenstein. Lets hope Garro contacted some more legions. I especially want to see Capt Varren of the World Eaters back buying time for the escape. I would think Graham Mac Neil would be a prime choice for a SW Heresy novel as he's written some stories about the fall of Prospero in the art books.Was anyone else concerned that the Death Guard colour scheme changed ? (Even though it made more sense in GIF)

Kegluneq
01-10-2006, 21:47
Finished today. Could have been worse - it was noticeably shorter, but well written and keeping to the spirit of the series so far. The ambiguous deaths were slightly annoying, especially since I was so convinced that certain characters would end up on the Eisenstein as well... :(

Chainsworded Codpiece
02-10-2006, 02:06
Was anyone else concerned that the Death Guard colour scheme changed ? (Even though it made more sense in GIF)

Um, illuminate me.

Wait, not in the way that Abbadon and Horus mean it, though.:eek:

Seriously, blank-write what the difference is, I'm curious. Haven't had a chance to camp out at the local Borders for three hours and read a copy (har de har).

Loved the way the DG looked on the cover, by the way, and a shot of them and the LW tearing the Holy Toledo out of each other...primo awesome.

Thank you doubleplusplusgood, Mr. Sibbering, you gxddamned bloodthirsty maniac.:) Great cover.

Karasu
02-10-2006, 08:18
Not finished yet, but I'm still reading it. However, I feel the need to share this with someone, hope it's not too far out of line or off-topic.

This morning, my fiancée saw the book and commented "Galaxy in Flames, Pigs in Spaaace."

My strange brain immediately started casting muppets as characters from the Horus Heresy...

Magnus the Red, played by Kermit the Green
Angron: Animal
Fabius Bile: Dr Bunsen (Does that mean that Eidolon is Beaker)
Fulgrim: Miss Piggy
Night Haunter: (Super)Grover
Roboute Guilliman: Sam the Eagle
Leman Russ: Oscar the Grouch
Sanguinius: Big Bird?
Loken and Torgaddon: Bert and Ernie

Should I stop now, or can we cast the whole thing?

Freak Ona Leash
02-10-2006, 10:23
Everyone knows The Wolf of Fenris is Gonzo. Because they are both clinically insane.

Karasu
02-10-2006, 12:09
Nah, surely Gonzo is Lorgar, he must be totally bug-nutty!

But I think Alpharius is probably played by Scooter.

Fozzy as the Lion? or would he be better as an Imperial fist?

Sikkukkut
02-10-2006, 12:42
The only thing that irks me is that the entire Imperium will never know that a small number of astartes from the traitor legions held true to their oaths, bought Garro time to warn the emperor and in the end, gave their all so that the Imperium could live.

Tragedy is the blood and fuel of this setting :skull:

Falkman
02-10-2006, 13:10
The only thing that irks me is that the entire Imperium will never know that a small number of astartes from the traitor legions held true to their oaths, bought Garro time to warn the emperor and in the end, gave their all so that the Imperium could live.
I'd say the Imperium does not live, at least not the Imperium they describe in the books, so for that, the loyalists died in vain.
All they fought for will be for nothing, as the Imperium descends into what they were fighting against.

They are great books however, and when Angron jumped out of that dropship I almost had an urge to hide behind a chair.

Fulgrim's Gimp
02-10-2006, 21:41
The Death Guard went from white , as on the cover to bare unadorned metal without ornamentation in the the novel. More in keeping with the grim and purposelike attitude of the DG but...... I thought Angron landing was one of the most dramatic points as well, it made me empathise with the betrayed World Eaters. Shame ther isn't more in the novel about the Loyalist Death Guard.

Xisor
03-10-2006, 01:24
A few things they should do, I hope, in the coming months:

- Exceptional detail on the dropsite Massascre. A trilogy at least detailing the perspectives of the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands
- A book detailing the 'fall' of the Thousand Sons
- A SW Book detailing the SW going from 'Raagh, the Space Wolves' to "'Yay, we got Magnus, just like Horus asked...' The Lion: 'Um...Horus is a traitor...'"
- A book, at least, showing the Ultramarines at Calth and surrounds

Anyhow: Galaxy in Flames

A damn good yarn. Not a piece of tremendous literature I'm afraid, and fairly short, but enjoyable all the same. Kept me interested, and was a good rendition of a good story. Well executed, with suitable plot hooks (like the continuation of 'the Saint'[Sinderman = One of the First Inquisitors up against Morianna after a bout of Rejuvenats?]) and generally well written, if not 'expertly' or 'of legend'(which is a shame, but there we are).

I felt gutted in lots of places, which is a credit to the author as it wasn't due to poor skill. Aruken made me want to slap him silly...then I thought about 'Command of the Titan I know' or 'Death for the God that probably isn't as described on the tin...'

Additional places include the prominence of Saul Tarvitz, inclusion of Garro and explaining how it all came about to start with. A few other tremendously fun bits, but it is just generally a decent action-adventure novel. Not groundbreaking, but a decent story. The deaths weren't too ambiguous to me: I 'knew'(deep down) that they weren't to live...

Xisor

Wazzahamma
03-10-2006, 01:43
- A SW Book detailing the SW going from 'Raagh, the Space Wolves' to "'Yay, we got Magnus, just like Horus asked...' The Lion: 'Um...Horus is a traitor...'"

According to some sources, wouldn't it also be: The Lion 'Um...Horus is a traitor...which doesn't seem like such a bad idea really..."

In any case, I'd also love to see all the books you've described. The problem with so many novels dealing with the Heresy is that we're upping the chances of a stinker or two coming out and possibly ruining a piece of 30k history.

El_Machinae
03-10-2006, 10:17
See, it would be taken badly by some and badly by others. I mean, 10k years is a LONG time for obfuscation of the truth to occur; but people like to think of certain myths as facts.

As well, the authors would be tempted to partake in foreshadowing. Throwing a brood cult into the mix would be tempting, I'm sure.

librerian_samae
03-10-2006, 10:47
from what some people have said already am I to believe that Varnes and Saul Tarvits are no longer aboard the Enstien with Garro?

if so that kinda narks me off a bit, as I really like 'em :cries:

Kegluneq
03-10-2006, 11:07
Yup! Basically they're left dead or dying on Isstvan III.

I forget, what happened to Tarvitz's Thunderhawk?

Wazzahamma
03-10-2006, 12:26
There's no mention of Varnes in Galaxy In Flames, as I recall...

Sikkukkut
03-10-2006, 12:41
'Raagh, the Space Wolves'

That's the title of book five, right there :)

Anyway, some moderately on-topic link pimpage: there's an interview with Ben Counter, including some Galaxy in Flames questions, here (http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8899)on the Black Library forums.

skyfurnace
03-10-2006, 12:54
There's no mention of Varnes in Galaxy In Flames, as I recall...

Do you mean Nero Vipus?

skyfurnace
03-10-2006, 13:09
I finished it today, very good read, didn't like it as much as the first 2 but all my favourite charecters ae dead, except 1 and even he was kinda portrayed badly.

Well, reading the Horus Heresy series is kind of like watching Peter Jackson's remake of King Kong: yeah, the special effects rock and the pace is cool... but the gorilla is STILL going to get it in the end, and we all know it's coming.

Loken can't last forever. He's just one marine. In fact, there are only a couple of characters - all "villans" - that make it out of the series and that are still "alive" in the "current" timeline of 40K.

Lucius (who has actually BEEN SLAIN a couple of times, I believe), Kharn, Abaddon, Bile... is Angron still around?

The series is a tragedy in many acts. It won't end well. I was talking with a friend of mine and we came to the epiphany that the Horus Heresy series is pretty much a very elongated prologue to everything that we know now about the mythology of the 40K universe. This isn't the end of an era so much as it is the beginning of war without end as we all know it.

There are a lot of very Dune-like underpinnings to the story, too. The Inquisition will, eventually, arise from the fledgling Cult of the Emperor. While the cult is somewhat passive and, at best, self-defensive in the book as presented by characters like Sindermann... eventually it will morph into one of the most feared and influential weapons that the Imperium can bring to bear. Arguably, in fact, surpassing the ferocity and frank military capability of the Astartes themselves. A lot like the Fremen cult of the Quizzats Haderach in Herbert's Dune.

That was just kind of a sidebar, there... but its part of the 40K mythology that I like.

Grindgodgrind
03-10-2006, 13:32
I have to say, I've been loving the books so far, I can't wait to read GiF.

Talos402000
03-10-2006, 20:44
There are a lot of very Dune-like underpinnings to the story, too. The Inquisition will, eventually, arise from the fledgling Cult of the Emperor. While the cult is somewhat passive and, at best, self-defensive in the book as presented by characters like Sindermann... eventually it will morph into one of the most feared and influential weapons that the Imperium can bring to bear. Arguably, in fact, surpassing the ferocity and frank military capability of the Astartes themselves. A lot like the Fremen cult of the Quizzats Haderach in Herbert's [I]Dune[/

You are mistaken sir. The Inquisition did not arise out of the Lux Illuminatis, the Adeptus Ministorum and the Adeptus Sororitas arose from the Imperial Cult. The Inquisition was established by Malcador the Sigilite at the direct order of the Emperor to make sure an event like the Heresy never happens again. Indeed, the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition is dedicated entierly to monitoring the Ministorum to make sure they don't get out of hand. The Ordo, in fact, was established after the Age of Apostasy to make sure a threat like Vandire did not arise again.

Chainsworded Codpiece
03-10-2006, 22:45
The Death Guard went from white , as on the cover to bare unadorned metal without ornamentation in the the novel. More in keeping with the grim and purposelike attitude of the DG but...

Hrrrm. OK. Yeah, I feel bad about the shift.

I've only read about a quarter of the novel thus far, and have yet to read that the DG have made their armor scraped-metal dull. The mention I saw was that of their battle-barge, and the personal armor of Mortarion.

Ah, well.

Oh, and I was wrong. It wasn't Phillip Sibbering's work on the cover. Some other fellow. Good job, whomever you are, sir.

SOTIRIOS
05-10-2006, 07:09
The metallic colour of the Death Guard makes sense as Mortarion does not like any kind of "decoration",but indeed this is a fluff change I don't know if I am happy with, especially when I compare it with the splendid artwork of the book depicting the DG as it used to be...
The thing I liked most in this 3rd book was the whole idea of Lunar Wolves vs Sons of Horus...One legion split by ideology...The only bad thing is that I want my next Tournament Army to be Lunar Wolves as they fought on Isstvan....(led by Loken,Torgadon and Nero Vipus)

Phunting
05-10-2006, 17:04
Do you mean Nero Vipus?I think he means Captain Varren, who was in the original story the loyalist World Eater who captured the Eisenstein, Garro was on a different ship and bought time for Varren and the Eisenstein to escape.

Toastrider
05-10-2006, 18:02
Galaxy In Flames beats up Revenge of the Sith and steals its lunch money.

'Nuff said.

--TR

Fulgrim's Gimp
05-10-2006, 22:14
I think he means Captain Varren, who was in the original story the loyalist World Eater who captured the Eisenstein, Garro was on a different ship and bought time for Varren and the Eisenstein to escape.

Indeed , though wasn't it the other way round in that Varren bought time for Garro ? I'm going purely on memory here as my Space Marine is lost to the mists of time. While I'm on the subject though, does anyone remember the Luna Wolf commander's name from that article ? It wasn't Loken was it ?

Wazzahamma
06-10-2006, 00:14
I know I'm constantly asking for fluff articles lately...but can anyone point me in the direction of this Varren/Garro/Tarvitz old Eisenstein stuff? What was it published in? Is it on the net at all? Ta.

Commander Ozae
06-10-2006, 01:23
The old Eisenstein fluff is under the Death Guard article of the IA. It basically says that Garro and 100 marines escaped Isstvan and went to Terra just in time for the Siege. They apparently fight to this day as a secret force that uses the old Death Guard colors and tactics.

Here's something I'm curious about, we've met Kharne and Lucius and we won't meet Ahriman until another book comes out but where is Typhus? I have seen neither hide nor hair from him and i don't know why.

Wazzahamma
06-10-2006, 01:43
But the IA article doesn't mention Varren at all....

Talos402000
06-10-2006, 01:46
Here, for your comparison is the old version of the fluff vs the new version.

The old version.

"You realise that you are preaching mutiny?" Brother-Captain Tarvitz nodded gravely. "Betray Horus or betray the Emperor. What choice is there?" The Space Marine officers looked at each other in silence for a few seconds. Tarvitz leaned forward across the table, resting on his fist.

"Fact: in the five Chapters under his command, Horus has installed this system of feral-world warrior lodges that he picked up on Davin. The standard Imperial organisations and command structures laid down in the Codex have been completely disregarded."

"Fact: the Isstvan campaign has been conducted without even the pretence of orders from Terra. While I do not presume to speak for the Emperor, I cannot believe that the use of a virus bomb on Isstvan III was justifiable. A single Company from a single Chapter dropped on the rebel headquarters would have answered the case."

"I say the Emperor must know what is happeneing here. Who is with me? Varren? What say the World Eaters?" A red-uniformed officer stood.

"There are fifteen men I can trust. They are yours."

"Garro?" A Captain of the Death Guards looked up.

"A dozen. I wish it were more."

"Ten from the the Luna Wolves."

"Twenty from the Thousand Sons."

"Be sure they are all trustworhty. If you have the lightest doubt, do not commit them. Of my own Emperor's Children, there are ten I am sure of, including myself." There was a pause as the paucity of the force sunk in.

"Seventy Marines, " said Brother-Captain Varren of the World Eaters, "the sum of our five Chapter numbers - a good omen, perhaps?" A couple of the others smiled, and the tension of the moment was broken. "Sevent Marines", repeated Tarvitz, "Enough for any task, I think. So, to work. Varren, your men will seize control of the frigate Eisenstein in three hours from now. It is on the edge of the fleet, and should be clear for the jump to Warp Space." Varren nodded.

"The Eisenstein has been having manoeuvre-drive trouble." he said, with exaggerated innocence. "She's been falling behind the fleet all day." Tarvitz grinned.

"Good. the rest of us will arrange for our ships to lag behind with her in case of... further trouble with the drives. Three hours from now, we will assemble full crew for an emergency briefing. Meanwhile, our trusted men take control of the systems on all five ships. Clear all remaining ships from around the Eisenstein and keep her covered until she makes the jump to warp space. Then, cause as much damage as you can to the rest of the fleet. history will vindicate us."

He turned to Varren, "Your World Eaters are our only hope," he said, "Do not fail." Varren's eyes became serious. "We cannot fail, " he said, "There is too much at stake. Your deaths will be avenged."
Taken from page 7, Background - The Horus Heresy.

New Version


The Eisenstein - How the Emperor was warned
"You realize that you are preaching mutiny?" First-Captain Saul Tarvitz nodded gravely. "Betray Horus or betray the Emperor, what choice is there?" The Space Marine officers looked at each other in silence for a few seconds. Tarvitz leaned forward across the table, resting on his fists.
"Fact: in the five Legions under his command, Horus has installed this system of feral-world warrior lodges that he picked up on Davin. The standard Imperial organizations and command structures laid down in the Codex Tacticus have been completely disregarded.
"Fact: the bulk of the Marines in our five Legions have repudiated their Marine's oath and sworn loyalty to the feral world deities. Further; they have sworn loyalty to Horus personally. Heresy and blasphemy.
"Fact: the Isstvan campaign has been conducted without even the pretence of orders from Terra. While l do not presume to speak for the Emperor; l cannot believe that the use of a virus bomb on Isstvan III was justifiable. A single Company from a single Legion dropped on the rebel headquarters would have answered the case.
"I say the Emperor must know what is happening here. Who is with me? Ehren? What say the World Eaters?" A blue and white- uniformed officer stood.
"There are eighteen men I can trust. They are yours."
"Garro?" A Captain of the Death Guards looked up.
"A dozen. I wish it were more."
"Fifteen from the Luna Wolves."
"Be sure they are all trustworthy. If you have the slightest doubt, do not commit them. Of my own Emperor's Children, there are seventeen I am sure of, including myself" There was a pause as the paucity of their force sunk in.
"Seventy Marines," said Brother-Captain Ehren Gak of the World Eaters, "The sum of our five Legion numbers - a good omen, perhaps?" A couple of the others smiled, and the tension of the moment was broken. "Seventy Marines." repeated Tarvitz. "Enough for any task, I think. So, to work. Garro, your men will seize control of the frigate Eisenstein in three hours from now. It is on the edge of the fleet, and should be clear for the jump to Warp Space." Nathaniel Garro nodded.
"The Eisenstein has been having maneuver-drive trouble." he said, with exaggerated innocence. "She's been falling behind the fleet all day." Tarvitz grinned.
"Good. The rest of us will arrange for our ships to lag behind with her in case of.. further trouble with the drives. Three hours from now, we will all assemble full crew for an emergency briefing. Meanwhile, our trusted men take control of the systems on all five ships. Clear all remaining ships from around the Eisenstein and keep her covered until she makes the jump to warp space. Then, cause as much damage as you can to the rest of the fleet. History will vindicate us"
He turned to Garro. "Your Death Guard are our only hope," he said, "Do not fail." Garro's eyes became serious. "We cannot fail," he said, "There is too much at stake. Your deaths will be avenged."

Wazzahamma
06-10-2006, 02:31
Wow. Amazing how one story changes so much. There really is no "god's eye view" of 40k fiction is there?

Did you type that all out yourself Talos 402000?

Talos402000
06-10-2006, 02:58
Nah, just cut and pasted from other sources.

Wazzahamma
06-10-2006, 03:31
Well, thanks for that! Really interesting....

Fulgrim's Gimp
06-10-2006, 21:19
My thanks Talos402000 . Also wasn't Saul Tarvitz meant to be a Terran ?

Phunting
07-10-2006, 00:00
I had hoped that that exchange would be written in GIF, as a nod to the old background. Or at least something pretty close. Alas revisionism strikes and not only does the conversation not happen, the events happen quite differently.

Still, very enjoyable book. Finished it today.


My thanks Talos402000 . Also wasn't Saul Tarvitz meant to be a Terran ?It's never mentioned in the short story. Also Garro, Tarvitz and Varren are the only names mentioned. The Luna Wolves and Thousand Sons (back when they were present) commanders aren't named.

Wazzahamma
07-10-2006, 01:20
Revisionism strikes, yes, but I think in this case it has made for a better story. The way Tarvitz discovers the betrayal in GiF folowed by his desperate attempt to reach the loyalists on Istvaan III and Garro's 'life or death' decision to aid him are fun more exciting and dramatic than the old fluff's family dinner around the table conversation. This is a case where I think new fluff (call it revision or revelation) is an improvement.

Phunting
07-10-2006, 13:27
I suppose in this instance I kinda agree, but I just object to revisionism in principle. For every GiF there is the Horus Heresy CCG! I have stayed with 40k long after most of my friends gave/grew up because I love the background. I don't want people changing it because they think it's 'kewl'...

charlie_c67
09-10-2006, 11:43
Dunno if it's been mentioned but a thought occured to me after reading this. Little Horus shows regret at the end of the book for what he did to torgaddon and the other stuff that's happening. Could it be possible that he was the reason the shields dropped around Horus allowing the Emperor, Sanguinus, Dorn etc on board?

The Ape
09-10-2006, 12:32
Unless they have changed the story again, then no. Horus dropped the shields because a daemon told him that there were loyalist reinforcements approaching Terra and Horus saw this as a way to end matters "here & now".

Having said that, I can see them changing the story to Little Horus lowering the shields.

charlie_c67
09-10-2006, 14:12
See that's the thing. Established fluff states the Horus dropped the shields. However with the appearance of Horus Aximand you could quite feasably ask, Which Horus?

The Judge
09-10-2006, 17:29
It's a good question

I'd prefer if the real Horus did it, of course. It's kind of a Greedo shooting first situation.

ryng_sting
09-10-2006, 18:28
See that's the thing. Established fluff states the Horus dropped the shields. However with the appearance of Horus Aximand you could quite feasably ask, Which Horus?

Horus still orders the shields dropped. The only difference is that Erebrus tells him, not a daemon: not a huge difference. Horus learns from Erebrus that the Space Wolves and Ultramarines will arrive in hours, and the Dark Angels some time after. The gamble has failed. Horus knows that he's run out of time, and that he has to throw the gauntlet down to the Emperor.

Talos402000
09-10-2006, 19:03
I finally read the book and their are a few things I'm dissapointed in. One is there is no mention of the Chaos Gods, no Slaanesh, no Nurgle, no Khorne, no Tzeentch. It would have been very cool if Lucius had whispered the name of his new god in the palace of Choral City. I hated seeing Saul, Loken, and the others die, but it did move the plot forward nicely, and while Loken is not specifically said to be dead, I think it's a given.

I wish they had given Angron a speaking part instead of just making him a dumb beserker but oh well, ce la vie'.

More World Eaters, under Brother-Captain Ehren Gak (the replacement for Varren from the original story, I'll warrant), stayed loyalist than I thought they would. Between those that stayed loyal, and the casuallties they inflicted on the traitors, Angron lost almost half his Legion on Isstvan, say about 45,000 Astartes (well done Saul, Ehren, Torgaddon, Loken). Which if it were an average sized Legion (100,000) to begin with, is quite a bit. One wonders how many World Eaters were left after the Battle of Terra.

One thing I did like was the cover art of the novel, which rocked. I really like the way the Pre-Heresy Death Guard looked. I might even use that as the paint scheme for the new Marine army I'm planning.

Covering Fire
09-10-2006, 21:19
I enjoyed Galaxy in Flames, but it didn't quite reach the standard that Horus rising set. Nevertheless, it was a good read...maybe a bit too short though.

A few thoughts:

I found myself really starting to like the Death Guard and their no-nonsense attitude!;)
What happened to the loyal Death Guard? Should have been more on this...
Why did Mortarion turn to "the dark side"? Can't find any real "motive" for him.
The bit about Torgaddon and Loken in the end seemed a bit rushed.
It was interesting to know that a great deal of the members of the traitor legions did in fact stay loyal and that they inflicted quite a few casualties on Horus' forces.
I really wanted to shoot Lucius...
...and Aruken too. What an selfish idiot!:mad:
The side story about the saint is interesting, because it gives another (non-Astartes) view of the events.
Shouldn't there be marines from different legions aboard the Eisenstein according to the old fluff?


Well, these are just my ramblings...why not go ahead and read it for yourself?:D

Fulgrim's Gimp
09-10-2006, 21:23
One is there is no mention of the Chaos Gods, no Slaanesh, no Nurgle, no Khorne, no Tzeentch.
I wish they had given Angron a speaking part instead of just making him a dumb beserker but oh well, ce la vie'.
.

I don't think any Traitors apart from maybe Lorgar's guys were entirely sure what they were dealing with at that point. 30k marines seem a lot more naive about the Warp.More likely I'm martial I'll belong to the lodge of the Hound etc.. Bearing in mind Horus has promised his legions to Chaos fully, after Isstvan 3, so the bargain has been completed only at the end of the book.True, Angron was a bit monosylabic, but he had the best line when talking to Eidolon.

charlie_c67
09-10-2006, 22:07
Where does it say Erebus told him to drop them? Or a daemon? New one on me! The Blood angels IA just says he relaxed the pyschic defences around his ship and the Black Legion IA says he lowered them in a bid to entice the emperor on board to slay him.


I hated seeing Saul, Loken, and the others die, but it did move the plot forward nicely, and while Loken is not specifically said to be dead, I think it's a given..

Well, as someone doing a medically associated course I think we can fairly safely say Loken would've died from his injuries even if the city hadn't been bombed back to the stone age.


I wish they had given Angron a speaking part instead of just making him a dumb beserker but oh well, ce la vie'..

But that's what he was! His life previous to being found was a pit fighter and his implants quite probably impaired his higher brain functions.


More World Eaters, under Brother-Captain Ehren Gak (the replacement for Varren from the original story, I'll warrant), stayed loyalist than I thought they

One could argue they weren't loyalist per se, rather they reacted to being betrayed. Having said that future books may lay more of a background to the other chapters and why those marines on Istvaan III were there.



What happened to the loyal Death Guard? Should have been more on this...

Think it can be taken as given that those who survived the virus bombing were either wiped out by Dies Irae or finished off by those troops loyal to Mortarion. I believe some reference is made to their fate and having to also fight their Primarch.


Why did Mortarion turn to "the dark side"? Can't find any real "motive" for him.

There never has been a decent reason for this turn IMHO. It all seems incredibly childish. Compare the story of Mortarion to Ferrus Manus. Both were challenged by the emperor, both were beating said challenge but then ran into difficulty, both would've died without the emperors help yet both ended up on different sides. Mortarion, along with Perturabo, are the two traitors with the weakest reasons to rebel as far as I am concerned.


The bit about Torgaddon and Loken in the end seemed a bit rushed.

Agreed, though considering who Loken was fighting, how could you have made it longer? Not easily.


It was interesting to know that a great deal of the members of the traitor legions did in fact stay loyal and that they inflicted quite a few casualties on Horus' forces.

May also have played a part in his eventual defeat!


Shouldn't there be marines from different legions aboard the Eisenstein according to the old fluff?

Well there was Qruze, but if IIRC it was 70 Loyalists. Don't remember there being any mention of other chapters but I could be wrong.

Phunting
09-10-2006, 23:12
Where does it say Erebus told him to drop them?Could be HHCCG background?


Well, as someone doing a medically associated course I think we can fairly safely say Loken would've died from his injuries even if the city hadn't been bombed back to the stone age.I don't think you have to be medically associated to know that. But we are talking about a work of fiction, and sci-fi fiction at that. Unless they explicitly say "and then he snuffed it" I tend to always believe they're gonna pop up later no matter how implied their death is...



But that's what he was! His life previous to being found was a pit fighter and his implants quite probably impaired his higher brain functions.Didn't this change from 2nd ed Codex Chaos? Could be wrong though...


One could argue they weren't loyalist per se, rather they reacted to being betrayed. Having said that future books may lay more of a background to the other chapters and why those marines on Istvaan III were there.But Angron only betrayed them because he believed they would stay loyalist...


Well there was Qruze, but if IIRC it was 70 Loyalists. Don't remember there being any mention of other chapters but I could be wrong.They were originally from EC, SoH, DG, WE and Thousand Sons (who originally took part in Isstvan III)...

Talos402000
09-10-2006, 23:23
In the old fluff it was only Varren and his World Eaters that got away. The other Marines took control of their ships and used them to cover the Eisenstein's jump to warp-space. Once that was accomplished they went suicidal and fought until destroyed. Indeed, Varren's last words to Tarvitz and Garro were "Your deaths will be avenged". He knows their all going to die.

Wazzahamma
09-10-2006, 23:34
Didn't this change from 2nd ed Codex Chaos? Could be wrong though...

I would assume that even though he was head strong and violent, that Angron still had the vast intellect of a Primarch.



But Angron only betrayed them because he believed they would stay loyalist...

Agreed. Ehren seems appalled at the idea of betrayal, and is actually concerned about saving Tarvtiz's life. These two traits (honour and compassion) seem to have been abanadoned by the rest of his legion. He also displays a powerful sense of duty and responsibility, evident when he beats himself up over not being able to succeed for the Imperium against the Choral City.

It seems that he and the World Eaters under his command had been singled out by Angron for extermination.

As for Mortarion's fall...it is selfish and prideful, but real people and mythical have "fallen" for far more petty reasons over the centuries.

charlie_c67
10-10-2006, 15:03
But that's my point, Mortarions fall doesn't tie up with circumstances he found himself in. Also, just re-read the IW IA article and there is an attempt to distance Perturabo because he didn't trust people and felt he was taken advantage of. First up, what's his reason for not trusting people? No reason is given. Secondly, if primarch's like russ, vulkan and magnus refused to split the legion up why did he? I'm sorry but I seriously hope these two have their background stories re-written to give a better reasoning behind their betrayals.

It would seem that Angron's implants focussed (sp?) his intellect into rage and martial prowess rather than tactics and guile.

ryng_sting
10-10-2006, 16:18
It says Erebrus told Horus in volume 4 of the Heresy artbooks. The full story of why Horus lowered his shields, as given above, has been common knowledge for some time, quite outside the expurgated version told in the Chaos and Blood Angel codexes.

Mortation's turn to Chaos was described in the Death Guard's IA article. Mortarion was a grim, fixated primarch, intent on reckoning with the galaxy's oppressors, who hated to be reminded of how the Emperor won his fealty. Horus, with whom Mortarion had by far more contact with and understanding of than the Emperor, promised Mortarion he would be the herald of a new age of justice. While this happened, Typhus (then Typhon) was making his pact with Nurgle. The rest, as they say, is history, since we all know what happened to the Death Guard once they made the warp jump to Terra.

skyfurnace
10-10-2006, 16:41
The metallic colour of the Death Guard makes sense as Mortarion does not like any kind of "decoration",but indeed this is a fluff change I don't know if I am happy with, especially when I compare it with the splendid artwork of the book depicting the DG as it used to be...
The thing I liked most in this 3rd book was the whole idea of Lunar Wolves vs Sons of Horus...One legion split by ideology...The only bad thing is that I want my next Tournament Army to be Lunar Wolves as they fought on Isstvan....(led by Loken,Torgadon and Nero Vipus)

That's funny, because I was thinking about doing the same thing with a group of Garro's Death Guard. The Index Astartes that details the DG states that noone really knows what became of Garro.

He may have rotted in prison. He may have died in the defence of the Golden Throne. He may have run off with his men as some sort of ronin company-in-hiding that's made a deal with the Apothicariat for invisibility...

We just don't know. Not yet, anyway.

Typhus is never mentioned in the first three books of the Horus Heresy. Wouldn't it be something if Garro BECOMES Typhus?

I'd really like to see if I could get my hands on some pre-heresy SM models and do up Garro's Company. The Eisentstein Seventy, as it were.

We'll see what happens.

The Ape
10-10-2006, 17:34
There is a picture of Typhon in Volume 1 of the Horus Heresy art books, so its definately not Garro who becomes Typhus

Toastrider
10-10-2006, 17:41
He may have rotted in prison. He may have died in the defence of the Golden Throne. He may have run off with his men as some sort of ronin company-in-hiding that's made a deal with the Apothicariat for invisibility...

"They might have split up or they might have capsized;
They may have broke deep and took water.
And all that remains is the faces and the names,
Of the wives and the sons and the daughters."
--"Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" by Gordon Lightfoot

Sorry, that remark of yours reminded me of the song ;)

--TR

skyfurnace
10-10-2006, 22:08
"They might have split up or they might have capsized;
They may have broke deep and took water.
And all that remains is the faces and the names,
Of the wives and the sons and the daughters."
--"Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" by Gordon Lightfoot

Sorry, that remark of yours reminded me of the song ;)

--TR

Nice.

I'd forgotten about that song, to be honest. :p

Talos402000
10-10-2006, 23:31
Garro's fate is known. He was slain fighting in the webway by the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince Ula, the Bane of Heroes.

Wazzahamma
11-10-2006, 02:29
Mortation's turn to Chaos was described in the Death Guard's IA article. Mortarion was a grim, fixated primarch, intent on reckoning with the galaxy's oppressors

This could be the key to Mortarion's corruption. If Horus convinced him that the Emperor was simply another opressor, who wanted to be a GOD, Mortarion would feel compelled to stop this from ever happening.

The childish resentment he harboured towards his father might have added fuel to his fire, but his fear of opression on the innocent and weak would have been the prime motivator...

charlie_c67
11-10-2006, 13:43
Maybe it's the way the IA was written then. It certainly didn't seem like that was the reason. As for the HHCCG books, I believe there is a question on how well they fit in with established fluff is there not?

The Ape
11-10-2006, 15:34
They do in some cases contradict what is in the HH novels. Some have tried to explain that away by saying it is simply different perspectives on the same story?!

On the other hand, they sell for silly money on ebay...

Voronwe[MQ]
11-10-2006, 15:49
It will be extremely interesting to see how Codex: Chaos Space Marines will explain the Horus Heresy.:p

Talos402000
11-10-2006, 18:37
You have nine different Legions and will probably get nine different (or more) answers about why they rebelled.

charlie_c67
11-10-2006, 20:43
It'll be interesting to see who the next three books in the HH nonology (is that even a word?) will follow. Hopefully it'll be someone from the loyalist side and then the final three will be the arrival of Garro/Istvaan V, the siege of Terra and the aftermath.

Wazzahamma
12-10-2006, 01:53
When is Codex:Chaos Space Marines coming out?

And no one source explains Mortarion's fall adequately, but we can piece together things from IA and the HH novels to come to that conclusion. It makes sense.

paddyalexander
12-10-2006, 02:23
And no one source explains Mortarion's fall adequately, but we can piece together things from IA and the HH novels to come to that conclusion. It makes sense.

"The Libram Primaris, or Book of Primarchs, tells how Mortarion brought the relentlessness, remorselessness and resilience of his personal Death Guard to the Legion built of his own genetic material, and how in turn they adopted his retinue's title as their own. The resulting prowess of the Death Guard was recognised from the moment Mortarion took command, but the young Primarch never settled in Imperial society outside of battle. Mortarion was a grim, driven Primarch, fixated on reckoning with the oppressors of the galaxy. The easy camaraderie of the other Primarchs was alien to him. The Shadow Journal of Bellerophan, Dark Angels Librarian, confides that, of them all, he found kindred spirits in only two: Night Haunter, the dread master of the Night Lords, and Horus, the Warmaster of the Imperium, the right hand of the Emperor. Horus above all others recognised the value of the Death Guard. He would often place Mortarion and his Legion in the centre of his battleline, counting on the enemy's inability to oust them so that he could either lever his advance from the rock of Mortarion's immovable position, or use it as the anvil upon which the Imperial hammer, in the form of his Luna Wolves, or the Haunter's Night Lords, would break the foe. It was a mercilessly effective combination.

In the charismatic Warmaster, Mortarion found a mentor who seemed to understand his goals and appreciate his methods. So close did Mortarion appear to be to Horus, in fact, it is believed that at least two of the other Primarchs, Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines and the ever watchful, ever taciturn Corax of the Raven Guard, approached the Emperor with concerns about where the master of the Death Guard's loyalties lay. The story of his allegiance to the Emperor won through his own failure was by then well-known, and anyone with even a passing familiarity with Mortarion knew that the pallid Primarch chafed at it. The Emperor is said to have dismissed their concerns with a wave; loyalty to Horus was de facto loyalty to the Emperor.

On that matter, the Emperor could not have been more wrong..."

One of the Adeptus Astartes books & White Dwarf

DantesInferno
12-10-2006, 08:59
The following bit from the IA article gives us some more insight into Mortarion's reasons for joining Horus:


Transcripts of the Council of Charon, convened after the Heresy to ascribe responsibility, suggest that, unlike some of the other Primarchs, Horus did not need to resort to ritual possession to win the Death Guard to his side. Horus promised that under his rule the old order would fall, and a new age would dawn, a just age with right ensured by the mighty. Mortarion turned on the Imperium as he had turned on the overlords of Barbarus, and joined the rebellion which would forever sunder the Imperium - the Horus Heresy.

Basically, he came to see the Emperor as a tyrant ruling over the weak, and that Horus' rebellion was the best hope for Humanity to achieve the justice which the Emperor's rule was denying them.

charlie_c67
12-10-2006, 15:47
But how did he come to that conclusion? If it was through what Horus told him then that would suggest a sort of mindless drone mentality. Nt something you'd expect from a primarch.

Wazzahamma
12-10-2006, 23:54
Well, since Mortarion already resented the Emperor and trusted Horus above anyone else, it's understandable. A part of him probably wanted to believe Horus. And who knows? Maybe Mortarion had already begun looking at the Emperor's philosophy/politics and begun thinking that his father was a tad oppressive even before Horus "revealed" his visions to Mortarion.

I wonder then- was Angron ritually possessed to turn him? You wouldn't think so, but something defintely changed in Kharn so much so that his personality dissolved in a matter of days...he seemed almost possessed in hi confrontation with Loken.

Horus38
13-10-2006, 01:03
Picked the book up last weekend and read it in two days, thanks for the support in the warseer community that gave such great reviews as I really enjoyed it.

*(and wasn't so shocked by the bigger text thanks to the warning)

In response to the post above regarding Kharn I dont think he was posessed but rather was forced via his loyalty to Angron so deeply along the path of chaos, or the "eightfold path" as he calls it, that his old personality was gone.

Nazguire
13-10-2006, 01:52
Mortarion already was bitter about the Emperor upstaging him and making him look a failure in the eyes of his native people, a people he had spent years trying to save from oppression, only to have a complete stranger do it for him, single handedly. Therefore, a part of him would already be looking for a chance to prove the Emperor weaker than what he appeared to be. At least to himself at any rate.

Also, Mortarion's ideas of justice, and the Emperor's are completely different. Mortarion believed that the strong should rule over those weaker than them. Didn't include anything about whether those stronger were any more fit to rule than those 'weaker' people.

charlie_c67
13-10-2006, 16:26
Why is Mortarion the only one who has this bitterness though? Other Primarchs were beaten in front of their own people and they didn't harbour this bitterness.

Voronwe[MQ]
13-10-2006, 16:49
Well, the World Eaters' primarch (whatwashisnamenowagain?) certainly was bitter towards the Emperor after He took him away and let his gladiator fellows die.

Horus38
13-10-2006, 17:05
That'd be Angron, and yes its been stated in the fluff that he was the easiest of the Primarchs for Horus to turn against the Emperor.

odmiller
13-10-2006, 17:12
Why is Mortarion the only one who has this bitterness though? Other Primarchs were beaten in front of their own people and they didn't harbour this bitterness.

Well, they all grew up in completely diffent circumstances, and their experiences shaped their lives. In addition, even though they were physical clones, their personalities were still different. Ever meet twins that behave very differently, and have different outlooks on life? Same thing.

Finally, 9 of them did have bitterness towards dear old dad, to a greater or lesser degree. That's what got those that were possessed to open the door to that possibility in the first place. So Mortarian was at the high end of the bitterness spectrum and didn't need the demonic possession? Someone had to be. They all made thought out, calculated decisions to turn from the Emperor, just like Mortarian. Their reasoning may have been slightly different, but they all willingly did it.

For example, in the second book in the trilogy, Horus makes a very calculated decision to betray the Emperor, and accept Erebus's deal with the devil, knowing full well what he is doing. He tells Erebus straight out that he sees through his schemes, and then accepts the deal anyway. In Lorgar's bitterness he made the same choice, before anyone else. It's essentially the same thing right?

charlie_c67
13-10-2006, 19:47
But when Horus made his decision he wasn't getting the truth was he? The trilogy seems to hint the whole caboodle was set in motion by the Word bearers on the mortal side of things. A scheme worthy of the Alpha Legion it appears.

Krootman
13-10-2006, 22:04
I had hoped that that exchange would be written in GIF, as a nod to the old background. Or at least something pretty close. Alas revisionism strikes and not only does the conversation not happen, the events happen quite differently.

Still, very enjoyable book. Finished it today.

Hahah same here, but I thoguht Garro saving Sual's ass as he was going down to the planet was pretty sweet...it gave me a sense of how the whole thing was sprialing out of control and all the loyalists could do was react. I mean Garro went from knowing nothing to being the man who warns the emp in about 30 seconds.
Im not going to lie when the Qurze went towards garros ship and he let him on I cheered because I was hopeing beyond hope that something along those lines would happen. As for being left on Istavan III I remember reading in the fluff for the HH trading card game said somehting how Horus had no more time to waste and left Saul and 9 other marines on the planet.

It would be nice to find out if they lived or not but who knows, we will have to wait for the next book ;)

Nazguire
14-10-2006, 02:52
Why is Mortarion the only one who has this bitterness though? Other Primarchs were beaten in front of their own people and they didn't harbour this bitterness.

Simple personality quirks probably. As you said, other Primarchs (many loyalists also) were downright humiliated in front of their adopted people (Leman Russ for example, having his ass kicked by a single swing of the power fist) and were still loyal and continued to believe in the Imperium and the Emperor. Just simple personality differences.

odmiller
14-10-2006, 08:26
But when Horus made his decision he wasn't getting the truth was he? The trilogy seems to hint the whole caboodle was set in motion by the Word bearers on the mortal side of things. A scheme worthy of the Alpha Legion it appears.

See, I got something different.

The Word Bearers certainly seemed to be running the show, setting Horus up and leading him on, and it looked like they were going to be to blame all the way, but then there is a moment on Davin where Horus puts Erebus in his place, making it quite clear he knows exactly what Erebus is up to, that he wouldn't be pushed/tricked into making a decision by either Erebus or Magnus. It seems to me that Horus made a conscious decision to accept the offer of power independent of Erebus's machinations.

Randallw
14-10-2006, 08:54
I found the events on the Dies Irae a bit of a twist. Convention would have the bloke who wasn't sure but who had been with the saint turn good but instead he turned bad, and his excuse. He wanted to be in charge of his own Titan someday. Well satisfyingly he may have turned but he'll spend the next 10,000 years stuck in a Chaos Titan with, presumably, the Princeps in charge.

7thOffensive
18-10-2006, 06:05
I really liked the book. I'm a yank so i just finished it.

It wasn't as good as mcneils offering, but very enjoyable.

I hope loken survives to make it into the grey knights.

my favorite part was when the emp. children said:

"the emperors children never run!"

and the world eater said, "you will from this."

and then angron pops out :p

Nazguire
18-10-2006, 08:37
I found the events on the Dies Irae a bit of a twist. Convention would have the bloke who wasn't sure but who had been with the saint turn good but instead he turned bad, and his excuse. He wanted to be in charge of his own Titan someday. Well satisfyingly he may have turned but he'll spend the next 10,000 years stuck in a Chaos Titan with, presumably, the Princeps in charge.

I can't see much oppurtunity for career advancement under the command of Abaddon plus being physically melded to the walls of a Titan with daemons for company.

But each to their own.

Randallw
18-10-2006, 10:54
I'm not entirely certain you got my point. If you did then don't mind this, but since he wanted to become in charge it is a fitting fate that he does not get his wish but is instead melded with a titan for 10,000 years with the other guy in charge until, as someone said earlier, the Dies Irae is destroyed.

Commander Ozae
18-10-2006, 17:37
well, you do get more or less immortality and you get the power of a titan enhanced by daemons at your disposal so for some people that's pretty sweet.

demiourgos
18-10-2006, 20:00
It was sweet relief to have this book not categorically suck like the second book did, although the print size was quite off-setting. Mercifully the appellation "Garvi" is used sparingly and Horus seems less the wuss and more the larger than life (literally) primarch. The second book was so gratuitously pandering to 40K mythos (the saint aside, which was brilliant) and completely devoid of meaningful pathos for horus or the soon to be loyalists and traitors. As previously stated, we all know what happens to the monkey and the big boat called titanic, but how that story is told provides the familiar gravitas. Anyway it was particularly enjoyable how the tone of the book builds the brother against brother motif throughout to the inevitable betrayals, which are numerous and compelling throughout.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
19-10-2006, 19:45
Well I for one am looking forward to the Istvaan V drop site massacres. Mainly to find out who the other four legions that turned are. As the IA on the Raven Guard states that it was the World Eaters, the Death Guard, The Emperors Children and The Iron Warriors as well as various other sources. However three of those legions are there already. The other theroy that I have read is that the four legions were the Night Lords, the Alpha Legion, the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors are the four legions. But the Word Bearers are being used to tie up the Ultramarines at Calth. The Night Lords are on the Eastern Fringe as stated in Lord of the Night and their entry in IA. The Space Wolves have been unleashed upon the Thousand Sons who are now considered Traitor so it is unlikely that they would play a role in it.

I am slightly disappointed that the two missing legions have not been named or mentioned even in passing. I find it hard to believe that two entire legions and their primarchs, espically since one is the 2nd legion, could be left out of the books on the Horus Hersey without even a passing mention. Perhaps there might be some mention in a later novel.

Phunting
19-10-2006, 21:51
I am slightly disappointed that the two missing legions have not been named or mentioned even in passing. I find it hard to believe that two entire legions and their primarchs, espically since one is the 2nd legion, could be left out of the books on the Horus Hersey without even a passing mention. Perhaps there might be some mention in a later novel.Really? I was astounded they were mentioned in the second novel. GW likes their 'mysterious' fluff, and I'm sure there are plenty of other legions that haven't been mentioned too, so I see no reason to mention those two...

charlie_c67
19-10-2006, 22:12
Yup, there was a veiled reference to one of the expunged primarchs saying they wouldn't reach their full potential. Shame the reason wasn't given.

Commander Ozae
19-10-2006, 23:03
Yeah, several threads have talked about that and the concensus is that they were genetically unstable and didn't develop correctly or were killed on their homeworlds before the Emperor arrived.

Nazguire
20-10-2006, 01:28
Well I for one am looking forward to the Istvaan V drop site massacres. Mainly to find out who the other four legions that turned are. As the IA on the Raven Guard states that it was the World Eaters, the Death Guard, The Emperors Children and The Iron Warriors as well as various other sources. However three of those legions are there already. The other theroy that I have read is that the four legions were the Night Lords, the Alpha Legion, the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors are the four legions. But the Word Bearers are being used to tie up the Ultramarines at Calth. The Night Lords are on the Eastern Fringe as stated in Lord of the Night and their entry in IA. The Space Wolves have been unleashed upon the Thousand Sons who are now considered Traitor so it is unlikely that they would play a role in it.

I am slightly disappointed that the two missing legions have not been named or mentioned even in passing. I find it hard to believe that two entire legions and their primarchs, espically since one is the 2nd legion, could be left out of the books on the Horus Hersey without even a passing mention. Perhaps there might be some mention in a later novel.

Positive that the traitor legions at the Drop Site Massacre were World Eaters, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Emperors Children, Alpha Legion, and Sons of Horus.

Not all the Word Bearers went to Calth either. A good chunk of them were stationed in the Solar System, whilst others were on Expeditions. Only those directly under Lorgar and his second in command Kor Phaeron and Erebus attacked Catlh.

Night Lords were doing their own thing on the Eastern Fringe, terrorising worlds and the such, generally enjoying themselves.

Thousand Sons were off getting whumped by the Space Wolves good and proper (yay Leman Russ and his Legion of Awesome!), before appearing next at the Siege of Terra.

Iron Warriors weren't all at Istvaan, many were off to Tallarn and other worlds that they had besieged and garrisoned before, I believe realistically only a small contingent would have been with Perturabo at Istvaan.

Alpha Legion, and Alpharius, were the main conspirators of Istvaan with Horus, so it makes sense that along with the other cult Legions that were there that they'd be there in force also. This also fits with enjoyment of challenges.

Wazzahamma
20-10-2006, 04:33
I don't think the Emperor's Children, World Eaters or Death Guard are part of the four "loyalist-lat minute-turncoats" though, since Garro would have alerted the Imperium to their betrayal.

Since Horus had a meeting consiting of Primarchs Mortarion, Fulgrim, Angron, Night Haunter, Perturabo, Alpharius, the rebellious Fabricator-General Kelbor-Hal, Dark Apostle Erebus of the Word Bearers Legion in the wake of the Dropasite maasacre, I'd say the four were Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords and Iron Warriors.

Essentially that's 8 traitor legions vs 3 loyalists (and not even the entire Iron Hands legion). Ouch.

Nazguire
20-10-2006, 04:45
I don't think the Emperor's Children, World Eaters or Death Guard are part of the four "loyalist-lat minute-turncoats" though, since Garro would have alerted the Imperium to their betrayal.

Since Horus had a meeting consiting of Primarchs Mortarion, Fulgrim, Angron, Night Haunter, Perturabo, Alpharius, the rebellious Fabricator-General Kelbor-Hal, Dark Apostle Erebus of the Word Bearers Legion in the wake of the Dropasite maasacre, I'd say the four were Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords and Iron Warriors.

Essentially that's 8 traitor legions vs 3 loyalists (and not even the entire Iron Hands legion). Ouch.

The original Legions that landed were the Salamanders, Iron Hands 1st Company with Ferrus Mannus and the Raven Guard. They were meant to defeat Horus but were beaten back to the Drop Sites.

I don't know that much about the Sabretooth background, but in the old background it was pretty much the 3 loyalists versus the EC, WE, IW, AL, SoH, DG and possibly the Word Bearers.

Still I haven't read Galaxy in Flames so I can't really say for sure.

Wazzahamma
20-10-2006, 05:17
Yeah, the Sabertooth stuff is on their site, if you wanna go check it. The Horus Heresy novels seem to be based off of it, so I think it'll be reflected in future novels involving Istvaan V.

Lothlanathorian
20-10-2006, 06:02
All I have to say is that, after all the inconsistencies in the first two books, I don't even know if I want to see how Ben Counter manages to rape the fluff and established story as vigorously as Abnett did in the first.

Wazzahamma
20-10-2006, 06:15
What inconsistencies? What rape?

Lothlanathorian
20-10-2006, 06:18
The plasma cannon used in the very begining of the first book, the warrior lodges being in the Legions and all of that. Plasma cannons were not man portable until some years after the Heresy, which is why CSM can't have them. The lodges were picked up on Davin when Horus went there. He joined the lodges as a form of diplomacy to get Davin into the Imperium and was then corrupted.

Wazzahamma
20-10-2006, 06:23
Oh. Well, I'm not a gamer, so whether a cannon is portable or not isn't really runing my sense of enjoyment.

As for the lodges- I think the revision is an improvement. Makes them more insiduous, like a cancer that had already taken root within so many legions. The previous version was a little bland.

What else was there? In GiF? I have no probelms with changes to fiction, as long as they're changes for the better.

And the earlier fluff was never really 'established" as such. It was always meant to be taken with the grain of salt that most of it was mythical distortion over centuries and not factual accounts of the heresy. As such, the HH books could be seen as an eye witness account vs legendary half truths, if you're so inclined.

Lothlanathorian
20-10-2006, 06:31
Okay, you got me with the grain of salt thing, I really can't argue too much on that, but this is an event that, IMHO, should never have been written out in a novel or series of novels. It is something that everyone has there own interpretation of and I don't like that mine has been so altered. The PC thing is the one thing that really gets me, though, as that is a part of the game itself. In 2nd Ed rules, only Chaos's plasma pistols would overheat, the Imperium's worked fine because they were better after 10,000 years of being improved on and Chaos could only take PC on Dreads because that was the only thing that could keep them from overheating and blowing up whenever anyone tried to fire one. I like the legend, as the actual event is never as cool, but all my whining is for naught, as I will read them all, damn it. The GW marketing machine wins always. Always.

sulla
20-10-2006, 06:38
Regardless of a few inconsistencies in the stories, they are still one of the best series ever written by BL (only narrowly losing out to the excellent Malus Darkblade novels IMO).

Wazzahamma
20-10-2006, 06:41
Ha, yeah. I can see how for someone who plays the game, that those weapon details would be very important. After all, without them, there wouldn't be any fiction in the first place.

But I think you can reconcile that cannon problem yourself by passing it off as a mistake on the author's part, on the editor's part and on GW's part. I think that sort of inconsistency is less a change of the old fluff or an update and more a simple screw up. Think of it like a typo, but bigger.

In the end though, my main concern is the story- if the plot and characters are well drawn, then I'm satisfied. But that's just me.

Voronwe[MQ]
20-10-2006, 06:44
Of course it is definitely of 'priority-importance', as some dane called it.

But there is a lot of weapon details in old and relatively new material that GW should consider. Though the plasma cannon, whilst of course a research-error from the author's part, could be viewed as a prototype.

Lothlanathorian
20-10-2006, 06:53
The story isn't bad, not at all, but it is those little details that get me in the end. It's just so...irksome. Damn, did I just say irksome? Well, that is what it is. I really wanted to read the books, just to see if they could do it justice, and I feel it could have been much better. If I don't think of it in context to 40K, they aren't bad at all.

Xuchilbara
20-10-2006, 06:56
I'm not entirely certain you got my point. If you did then don't mind this, but since he wanted to become in charge it is a fitting fate that he does not get his wish but is instead melded with a titan for 10,000 years with the other guy in charge until, as someone said earlier, the Dies Irae is destroyed.

wasn't it destroyed in Storm of Iron?

Voronwe[MQ]
20-10-2006, 06:59
The story isn't bad, not at all, but it is those little details that get me in the end. It's just so...irksome. Damn, did I just say irksome? Well, that is what it is. I really wanted to read the books, just to see if they could do it justice, and I feel it could have been much better. If I don't think of it in context to 40K, they aren't bad at all.

Exactly, and they should have been even longer, covering more, giving one even more insights into the pre-Heresy Imperium and galaxy.

Lothlanathorian
20-10-2006, 06:59
Yes it was, which was AWESOME! That was a good book, IMHO.

Wazzahamma
20-10-2006, 07:30
Fair enough- just that there's a world of difference between "irksome" and "rape". ;)

And Voronwe, even though the novels leave me hungry for more, I think that it's wise of GW to leave huge gaps and holes still to allow us to fill in. After all, if they nail it all down, then there won't be much room for reader interpretation. As we can see from Lothlanathorian's posts, they're already treading a fine line.

Voronwe[MQ]
20-10-2006, 08:16
Indeed, I should have written it too; I meant that there should have been even more hints and mentions of things for us to interpret. :D

Lothlanathorian
21-10-2006, 06:01
I tend to have a strong reaction to these things, There is a world of difference between 'rape' and 'irksome', but it almost seems as though the writers don't show the respect due. I know that there is 'creative interpretation' and the thing...what is it called...DAMN IT...oh man, that thing where the writer can do what they want, I can not believe I can't remember this. Well, anywho, they are taking too many liberties with what they are doing. It is the same thing that happens to comics after a few years (unless it is Ultimate Spider Man, in which case it happens every 6 months), the writers either forget, ignore or try to re-write previously established continuity. I can understand mixing and mashing a few things, but it is like they aren't paying attention to the source material and more like they remember a few things they read once years ago and decided to write a whole series of books about it.

The Ape
21-10-2006, 09:56
I know that there is 'creative interpretation' and the thing...what is it called...DAMN IT...oh man, that thing where the writer can do what they want, I can not believe I can't remember this.

Artistic license? :D

Lothlanathorian
21-10-2006, 16:11
YES!! Artistic license! Man, that was pretty simple...But yes, they take too much of it that way and they shouldn't. I can understand that some 'filling out' needs to be done, but not making up stuff that flies in the face of what is already established.

El Big Man
22-10-2006, 02:23
The new books have not flown in the face of already established fluff other than the make up of the chapters of the marines that were onboard the Eisenstein. Two things I really enjoyed were the humanising of Horus, so that his downfall could be more easily empathised with (and therefore more understandable and a more solid part of the background) and the destruction of the loyalist parts of the traitor legions. I always found the idea that the legions turned whole-heartedly against the Emperor rather hard to follow.

The introduction of characters such as Qurze, in opposition to the new marines who were taken in after Horus inception as a member of the Great Crusade, and the resultant split made for a much more interesting story.

The World Eaters were a fantastic part of the last book. They accepted their fate as shock troops, but were more resigned to it than relishing in it. I was, however disappointed at Kharn's sudden switch from honourable and thoughtful martial hero to raging, frothing psycopath. I just couldn't understand this switch, as in his earlier conversations with Loken, it seemd he would have followed the loyalists, but i guess his position as Angron's emissary would have been enough to show his true loyalties really.

Kage2020
22-10-2006, 03:45
My (half-way through) impression of Galaxy in Flames is that, like the previous novels, they are fun! I'm enjoying reading them, which is a surprise to someone that feels jaded after reading the greater majority of BL novels set in the 40k universe.

With that said? Well, it's not as if one cannot see problems with the books. The most obvious ones that spring to mind is the representation of the Marines as basically humans with superpowers, and their "functional immortality". I mean, please! The authors obviously read the 'fluff', but for me this takes "Golden Age Doctrine" a bit too far.

Am I surprised? No, not really.

Kage

Lothlanathorian
22-10-2006, 06:15
See, I love it when Kage posts, because he manages to make what I was thinking much more refined and easier to understand. I haven't said anything about 'Galaxy in Flames', as I have yet to read this one. I want to read it and I enjoyed the first two, but, in the context of 40K, I think what they are doing is wrong. And I, personally, don't want to be able to empathise with Horus or the other Primarchs. I think that making many of them tragic in a way is good, but humanising them is just wrong, IMHO. I prefer the darker, original background. Again, though, I'll still read the books and they aren't bad...for Science Fiction.

Wazzahamma
22-10-2006, 08:18
I would argue that none of the Primarchs in the novels are easy to identify with. On the BL spoiler board for instance, there are long threads with members trying to fathom Horus' character and not one of us has been able to nail it down.

As for the pre-heresy marines being "basically humans with superpowers", I feel that is the point of 30k and why so many marines from that age 'fell' to chaos. They're tragically human. Post heresy, measures such as dehumanising indoctrination and younger recruitment into the chapters seem to have been put in place to prevent this from occuring again. Of course, it's still not failsafe.

And on a final note, I still think that nothing from 30k era was ever firmly 'established' in a set in stone sort of way.

Lord Dante
22-10-2006, 20:25
whats thier to nail down about Horus character? hes likeable chap, great leadership skills, fair and true, bit upset with dad.

skyfurnace
22-10-2006, 20:43
[QUOTE]It is something that everyone has there own interpretation of and I don't like that mine has been so altered.

I'm pretty sure that there are a whole lot of the "everyone out there" who don't have the slightest idea or opinion regarding the finer points of the socio-spiritual implications of the events that occured on Davin before the Horus Heresy actually began. So for that, I think that the novels are doing a pretty bang-up job all things being equal.

Wazzahamma
23-10-2006, 00:33
Lord Dante- you've opened my eyes!

Nazguire
23-10-2006, 01:37
And on a final note, I still think that nothing from 30k era was ever firmly 'established' in a set in stone sort of way.


Indeed, other than the general make up of the story (son turns evil, does bad things, upsets people, gets killed by upset dad- basically the McMahon family story minus death of son/father) nothing was really explained in detail.

Which is why I can't understand what people are upset about. Some points are understandable (Fulgrim and Mannus for example, or the much despise Imperial Webway drama) but there is so much never fully explained, no one should rightfully be able to complain about it.

Wazzahamma
23-10-2006, 01:59
My own personal position as to what I prefer is simply- what makes a better story? Or what serves the mythos better? My criteria isn't based on preferring older 'fluff' simply because it's more established and familiar. Also, it's not simply newer 'fluff' because it's modern and 'cool'.

I think certain things like the flight of the Eisenstein crew (the orginal version was contrived) and Ferrus losing his head are improvements in the recent updates. Fulgrim being a traitor by the time of Istvaan III instead of V is an area that I feel is less dramatic and ironic than the previous versions.

The older versions left so much open and unsaid (and even what was said was potentially untrue) that I can't see any of the revisions/revelations as ruining anything. Still, each to their own.

fracas
23-10-2006, 03:58
this series will form the new bible for 40k at least when it comes to the Heresy.


i am curious as to whether the Saint becomes the precursors to the SoB


Ben Counter style is that personalities are caught up in the tides of event and histoy. a respectable perspective. thus his stories are about the events and how people react to them.
the alternative perspective is that men make history, and if so, character developement would be more important in the story telling.

Lothlanathorian
23-10-2006, 06:17
40K Quiz Book, pg. 19, question 9:
'On which planet was Horus, dangerously wounded, taken in by local priests and introduced to their culture of warrior lodges'

Answer on pg. 155:
'Davin'

IMO, this contracdicts the lodges being in the Legions before this event. Horus was introduced to these lodges when they came to this planet.

Chem-Dog
23-10-2006, 06:26
What happened to Ancient Rylanor??
That bugged the hell out of me, I thought I'd missed a chapter or something.


I forget, what happened to Tarvitz's Thunderhawk?

Wasn't mentioned, I suppose it's possible that the few who did make it (if there are any) might have a chance to get off world, but I sincerely doubt it, it's a bit too much of a Holywood ending after the orbital lance strikes Horus dropped on them.


Galaxy In Flames beats up Revenge of the Sith and steals its lunch money.

'Nuff said.

--TR

Ice age 2 beats up Revenge of the Sith, to be honest.



Why did Mortarion turn to "the dark side"? Can't find any real "motive" for him.
It was interesting to know that a great deal of the members of the traitor legions did in fact stay loyal and that they inflicted quite a few casualties on Horus' forces.
The side story about the saint is interesting, because it gives another (non-Astartes) view of the events.
Shouldn't there be marines from different legions aboard the Eisenstein according to the old fluff?

1. Mortarion is the Emo Goth kid of the primarchs ;)
2. Scary to think what Horus would have achieved if he had gone uncontested all for the decision of a single ancient (think about it).
3. What interests me about Euphrati Keeler is that she doesn't actually seem to be "taken up with the spirit of the Emperor" because if she were he would be aware of what was going on and would not need to take Sinderman and Oliton with her to be the witnesses that are needed, so, her power, her saintlyness is not supplied by the Emperor.....
4:the book glossed oer the Eisentein as it has it's own book coming to a bookstore near you, SOON.


But how did he come to that conclusion? If it was through what Horus told him then that would suggest a sort of mindless drone mentality. Nt something you'd expect from a primarch.

It's not so hard when you have Horus, the master statesman guiding you along.


Why is Mortarion the only one who has this bitterness though? Other Primarchs were beaten in front of their own people and they didn't harbour this bitterness.

Read Horus rising again the character of each of the Primarchs is explained, Mortarion is sullen, Peturabo is downright poisonous etc etc.


Yup, there was a veiled reference to one of the expunged primarchs saying they wouldn't reach their full potential. Shame the reason wasn't given.

Glad somebody agrees with me on this.


The plasma cannon used in the very begining of the first book, the warrior lodges being in the Legions and all of that. Plasma cannons were not man portable until some years after the Heresy, which is why CSM can't have them. The lodges were picked up on Davin when Horus went there. He joined the lodges as a form of diplomacy to get Davin into the Imperium and was then corrupted.

Warrior Lodges were adopted by the Word Bearers first, they deseminated them into the other legions including the Lunar Wolves.
How about the fact that in the CSM codeX Lucius is already a Lord Commander before the Emperor's Children were "dispatched to challenge Horus' rebellion.."?

All in all not a bad, I didn't notice the print was bigger so I thought I'd read through it at amazing speed, I did feel a little short changed by the book, some questions were left unanswered.

The warsingers, or whatever they were called, did anyone else see the startings of the Sonic weapons used by the Noise Marines?

Wazzahamma
23-10-2006, 06:48
40K Quiz Book, pg. 19, question 9:
'On which planet was Horus, dangerously wounded, taken in by local priests and introduced to their culture of warrior lodges'


Well my personal preference (again) in regards to quality writing is to take fiction from a BL novel by Dan Abnett over a quiz book. ;)

In any case, if we take a look at the black legion IA article we can see from the very introduction paragraph:

"The early history of the First Founding Space Marine Legions is largely lost to the relentless march of time. Accounts and details of those Legions that rebelled (and especially of the Arch-Traitor Horus himself) were further expunged from Imperial records after the Horus Heresy, to deny any knowledge of those events from the vulnerable minds of Imperial citizens. Indeed, only a select handful of powerful individuals know any of the truth and it is likely that none know it all. Such information that does exist is sketchy and anecdotal, and lies in ancient heretical tomes closely guarded by certain Inquisitors or handed down within the secret orders of the original Legions that remained loyal."

So, there's the disclaimer in regards to the credibility of any 'established' facts in regards to Horus and pre-heresy times. Furthermore:

"Before he could return to Terra to be officially invested with his new title, Horus apparently fell ill on a small feral world called Davin. During his convalescence, he took part in the induction ceremony of a warrior lodge on the planet. "

Note the word "apparently". It's there for a reason. GW love their out-clauses....;)

Wazzahamma
23-10-2006, 06:51
That bugged the hell out of me, I thought I'd missed a chapter or something.



I get the impression that Rylanor died a sad death there and then as he watched betrayal pour down from the skies.

Lothlanathorian
23-10-2006, 07:06
Since the Quiz Book is compiled from every codex and BL novel that was written, I think it can be considered a good source. Again, Dan Abnett, inside the first 20 pages of his book, managed to already screw it up. The questions in the Quiz Book book were written by Chris Beaumont, Ben Counter, Christian Dunn, Tim Huclkelbery, Graham McNeill and Gav Thorpe. Yeah, definitely has street cred.

Wazzahamma
23-10-2006, 08:06
I was talking quality of fiction, not necessarily "source" cred. I was only joking anyway- I mean... it's a quiz book.

Anyhow, the IA article more than muddy's the quiz book absolute authority on the matter. I think this is beginning to go in circles...

Lothlanathorian
24-10-2006, 06:52
Man, I want the QB to win, but oh well. Yeah, this is gonna end up in circles and I shall bow out with a 'To each his own'.

Wazzahamma
24-10-2006, 09:41
I've always been partial to "Different Strokes...":D

Nazguire
24-10-2006, 09:51
I was talking quality of fiction, not necessarily "source" cred. I was only joking anyway- I mean... it's a quiz book.

Anyhow, the IA article more than muddy's the quiz book absolute authority on the matter. I think this is beginning to go in circles...


Which is the general gist of GW fiction in general, at least concerning the Cash Cow aka Horus Heresy.