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Ikkaan
20-09-2006, 14:52
This question is a little bit unformed, maybe a little bit on the rpg side, so donīt go khornate on me...

Every craftworld eldar is able to grab a weapon and enter battle, even without changing his aspect -> guardians. Young eldar are given leniency as they are regarded as children, but only to a degree. They are forced to adopt an aspect or leave the craftworld (the path of the outcast). After they choose their first aspect they are regarded as adults. So far so good. Probably the un-path of the guardian is taught when they get old enough, so young eldar are also of military use.

What interests me is the moment when they rise from only learning basic stuff and basic military training. Is there a special ritual marking the ascending adult ? Do they have additional training periods or do they just grow into their new role ? Are they told of the racial stigmata (the story of slaanesh) their race carries then or do they learn it earlier ?

LordXaras
20-09-2006, 15:30
"In times of need, those taught the ways of war form squads of Guardian Defenders...."

"Guardian Storm squads are formed from Eldar who were once warriors from one of the close combat Aspect shrines such as the Striking Scorpions."

As I read it all Guardians have been Aspect warriors at one point or another in their lives, thus everyone viable to be a Guardian would already have been considered an Adult.

Learning would be based on level of experience, not age. The Aspects and other paths probably have a "level" system. Also, the whole process of the paths seem to be based on gaining complete expertise in one thing before moving on to the next, so I would expect this to be mirrored within each path and aspect (wax on, wax off).

However, the Eldar would most certainly have celebrations and rituals to celebrate things like becoming an adult - even with their utterly alien minds they seem to share certain traditions with us, and I can definitely see that they would make a great fuss about a child becoming a man/woman. The rite of adulthood and other like it would be a reason to add a new part to an individual's ritual name - something I expect to be very a very important step in Eldar society.

Sephiroth
20-09-2006, 15:54
To my understanding, their is no requirement that every Eldar must walk upon the Path of the Warrior, it's just some are naturally inclined, as it is quite a passionate part of the Path.

Setrus
20-09-2006, 16:04
Nope it's not a requirement, although I think they're encouraging it now when the race is in such dire straits...
(Maybe we'll be answered by the codex? Who knows? )

I always thought that guardians were the militia with no REAL training. More like the poets and different workers with basic training being given a gun when there was need for more warm bodies...

But maybe I'm wrong? :confused:

Ikkaan
20-09-2006, 16:25
Storm Squads require specialists, so i can imagine they only recruit ex-aspect warriors into them...but why donīt these ex-aspect warriors just re-adopt their old aspect ? A dire avenger would be more useful than a storm guardian, or ?

Sephiroth
20-09-2006, 17:10
Storm Squads require specialists, so i can imagine they only recruit ex-aspect warriors into them...but why donīt these ex-aspect warriors just re-adopt their old aspect ? A dire avenger would be more useful than a storm guardian, or ?

It's a matter of whether their on the Path of the Warrior or not at the time the Eldar are required to go to war.

Those on the Path of the Warrior assume their various Aspects, or Ways. Those whom are no longer on the Path of the Warrior, but have been previously, support the Aspects as Guardians.

IJW
20-09-2006, 18:09
Depends on the age of the fluff - in 3rd ed all Storm Guardians used to be Aspect Warriors at some stage and Defender Guardians are those with some military training. In 2nd ed ALL Eldar on a craftworld had military training and could take to the field as guardians. Those who had been on the path of the warrior usually becoming squad leaders if they didn't rejoin their shrine for the war.

Kage2020
20-09-2006, 21:15
...maybe a little bit on the rpg side...
Definitely not something that should be considered as "wrong".


Young eldar are given leniency as they are regarded as children, but only to a degree.
It all really depends on how view the Eldar child-rearing techniques, childhood and young adulthood, and so on. For me (which is to say that it is my interpretation), the first 80 standard years (365.25 days) are "childhood". This is a period whereinthe immature Eldar spends under collective tuition by the entire craftworld: they are taught about their heritage and birthright, the stringent culture of the Craftworld Eldar, and are prepared to take their first steps upon the Path and Clan. A part of this is, when they are physically mature (occurring roughly at the same point as with humans: 18-25 standard years), is the same military training that all Craftworld Eldar receive. After all, the birthright and heritage demand that they all take up the sword for mutual protection.

Then again, this itself depends on just how you see Guardian service working. After all, in most circumstances one doubts that every single Eldar is training all the time, nor that it is a lottery as to who gets selected to go to battle. I borrow from - darn, someone over on 40kOnline that doesn't post any more - that there are several "Guardian Houses" which operate to rotate "active" service and focus military training into a cyclical pattern. When I say 'focus', all Eldar have to continue to train, but it's not quite as intensive as when the Guardian House is active.

Again, that's just me.


Is there a special ritual marking the ascending adult ?
The Rite of Ascension, as I somewhat originally call it. Again, it's my interpretation: the point at which the Eldar's training is complete and they take up a Clan and step forth onto the Path.


Do they have additional training periods or do they just grow into their new role ?
As above, they continue their military training throughout their life, although it is not obviously their Path. Rather, it takes up a portion of their "free time" and, yes, Eldar do have free time that they often use to dedicate to a secondary past-time (even if it is focussed around the aforementioned Path).


Are they told of the racial stigmata (the story of slaanesh) their race carries then or do they learn it earlier ?
I would imagine that all Eldar learn this as children: it is a part of their heritage and is coupled with their birthright.


As I read it all Guardians have been Aspect warriors at one point or another in their lives, thus everyone viable to be a Guardian would already have been considered an Adult.
Personally I find this contradictory to the earlier background, which was slightly more cohesive. Thus I stick to the above since, overall, it seems to work with the balance of the 'fluff'.


Also, the whole process of the paths seem to be based on gaining complete expertise in one thing before moving on to the next, so I would expect this to be mirrored within each path and aspect (wax on, wax off).
That, however, is true.


...even with their utterly alien minds they seem to share certain traditions with us...
Well, that's not really surprising. The Eldar are, in some ways, just a variation or caricature of humanity.


The rite of adulthood and other like it would be a reason to add a new part to an individual's ritual name - something I expect to be very a very important step in Eldar society.
Now that is a darned fascinating point. I'd completel forgotten about the ritual/occult overtones of the universe in general, and the Eldar specifically. I'll have to put more thought into this, but thanks for pointing it out LordXaras.


To my understanding, their is no requirement that every Eldar must walk upon the Path of the Warrior, it's just some are naturally inclined, as it is quite a passionate part of the Path.
Completely true, Sephiroth. It's the same thing that while common perception looks to the Path of the Seer as being the ultimate destination of Eldar, that it is not walked by all Eldar and, even then, it tends only to be walked at the end of their life.

Kage

Kage2020
20-09-2006, 22:25
Craftworld culture tends to be more homogenous than not, at least according to the original background material. The problem is with this is that it has been revised in Edition Drift because people creating armies like to try to be "unique". Thus, I would say that the above is only relevant for the "main five" and, even then, probably not as relevant as the similarities.

Kage

Ikkaan
21-09-2006, 12:06
Originally Posted by Kage2020

Originally Posted by LordXaras
The rite of adulthood and other like it would be a reason to add a new part to an individual's ritual name - something I expect to be very a very important step in Eldar society.
Now that is a darned fascinating point. I'd completel forgotten about the ritual/occult overtones of the universe in general, and the Eldar specifically. I'll have to put more thought into this, but thanks for pointing it out LordXaras.

Where do you get this from ? Eldar names are seldomly stated, whose parts of their names do you mean ? Or are you referring to a secret name or the right to use the family name ?

Kage2020
21-09-2006, 13:27
It is a sense of feeling and consistency with the background material, Ikkaan, not something that is specifically stated.

Kage

LordXaras
21-09-2006, 15:11
Where do you get this from ? Eldar names are seldomly stated, whose parts of their names do you mean ? Or are you referring to a secret name or the right to use the family name ?

I was referring to what is referred to as the "Ceremonial names" in Codex: Eldar, which are only really used in rituals and... well... ceremonies?

"Ceremonial names often grow longer with age, as achievements and abilities grow."

At birth, an Eldar individual would be know only by his or her craftworld, given name and family name, but as they choose paths and perform feats worthy of notice their name is extended.

I also agree with Kage's interpretation that Eldar rely heavily on occultism and obscure rituals, like how Eldar warriors apparently require a lenghtly preparation to unleash their warrior selves, and how Seers rely on the casting of runes to tell the future.

The Laughing Gods Avatar
21-09-2006, 21:55
Are they told of the racial stigmata (the story of slaanesh) their race carries then or do they learn it earlier ?

This is the function of the harlequins, they appear on the craft worlds from time to time and tell the story of the fall. Besides that I don't believe that the fall is often talked about rather than vague references or by seers.


I still adhere to the idea that all Eldar are guardians, with such limited numbers the defense of the craft world falls to it's citizen militia every Eldar has basic combat training. Not every Eldar will walk the path of the warrior, but being a guardian is not a path, it's simply a duty of all Craft world Eldar.

Hellebore
22-09-2006, 03:35
Another thing not to forget is just how many generations of eldar have existed on each craftworld since the fall.

If the average eldar reaches 1000 years in age, and they attain sexual maturity at ~300, that gives a minimum generational gap of 300 years.

Thus there would have only been 33.3r generations since the fall (over 10,000 years).

A human generation before the industrial age was pretty small (Kage would probably have the figures) so I would say ~15 minimum.

500/15= 33.3r generations

Thus the eldar go through the same number of generations in 20x the time period.

How much 'culture drift' , and thus how different the craftworlds really are will be dependent on whether that many generations is really enough.

Considering that even now you can get 4 generations of family living concurrently, and the eldar may have had as little as 33 generations, means that those generations can be broken up into blocks of 8 (33/4) to show that in reality each generation is seperated from the society of the next by very little.

Thus, using the above parameters, the eldar 'megageneration' of 4 seperate generations is only 8 denominations long, which is quite small.


Thus, I believe that societally the eldar have changed very little, because very little 'generational' time has passed between the fall and now.

Hellebore

Skrittiblak
22-09-2006, 11:14
If the average eldar reaches 1000 years in age, and they attain sexual maturity at ~300, that gives a minimum generational gap of 300 years.

Instead of dealing with mega-generations you can just compare by doing a straight generational map. Our generations are 20 years, there's are 300 (according to you).

1000 years of eldar (generationally) is the same as ~67 years of our generations. Eg: There is the same generational gap between an Eldar at the current timeline and eldar during the fall as their is between a human born now and a human born in the 1940s.

Eg: Not alot. The fall is obviously pretty close. How many people have not heard of World War 2?

wascloud
22-09-2006, 13:34
personally i always saw guardian training as like a national service, every eldar trains, but not at the same time, and then every trained eldar can be called to fight at anytime by the craftworld... might be completely wrong tho;)
wascloud

Hellebore
22-09-2006, 14:56
Instead of dealing with mega-generations you can just compare by doing a straight generational map. Our generations are 20 years, there's are 300 (according to you).

1000 years of eldar (generationally) is the same as ~67 years of our generations. Eg: There is the same generational gap between an Eldar at the current timeline and eldar during the fall as their is between a human born now and a human born in the 1940s.

Eg: Not alot. The fall is obviously pretty close. How many people have not heard of World War 2?

A rather less verbose way of saying what I did. Thanks Skrittiblak.;)

Hellebore

IJW
22-09-2006, 15:07
Or think in terms of 'grandfathers' as a unit of historical time:

Human - 'My grandfather is 40 years older than I am."
Eldar - "My sire's sire has 600 years more experience of this universe than I."

Kage2020
22-09-2006, 22:11
It's purely personal interpretation, but I personally stick the Craftworld Eldar generation at around 500 years, in comparison to the real world first-world nation statistic of (I'm guessing) around 23-25.

Erm, that's all... ;)

Kage

Skrittiblak
23-09-2006, 19:58
The map obviously doesn't quite work out exactly. Because Eldar may (for all we really know) be able to have children as young as 30 for all we know and because others may decide to have children as late as a 5000 years of age.

I think we can imagine that in some cases there are very many generations of eldar between the fall and now and in other cases there are very few (parent or grandparent may have been a direct survivor). I suppose it just depends on how much of an 'early bird' ones parents were.

Kage2020
23-09-2006, 20:27
Because Eldar may (for all we really know) be able to have children as young as 30 for all we know and because others may decide to have children as late as a 5000 years of age.
With regards to the first point, I would argue that Eldar are physically mature before 30 standard years, so that is possible. A social tabook, but possible.

As to having children as late as 5,000 years of age? No, not really. The average Eldar lifespan is canonically around 1,000 years. Of course, there are also suggestions of 'several thousand years' in the background, but I would interpret this is a compound error of misinterpretation.


I think we can imagine that in some cases there are very many generations of eldar between the fall and now....
Yep, around 20 of them. ;)


...and in other cases there are very few (parent or grandparent may have been a direct survivor...
They're going to have to be pretty something special to have survived for that long. Of course, there is always the Ancestor spirits.

Kage