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Rich
26-06-2005, 16:47
There seems to be a general assumption that Tau tech is superior to Imperial tech, and to me this seems wrong. Granted the Tau are actually progressing with their tech at a faster rate than the imperium (which seems to get worse in some areas) but nonetheless I find it hard to credit the Tau with technology which is better than its imperial equivalent. To begin with, I'm going to go for the common things which the Tau are assumed to have mastered, and please feel free to argue/discuss, especially other examples of imperial/tau technological differences.

Plasma weaponry

- this is an area which the Tau excel, and at first glance they seem to have a far better grasp of such equipment than the Imperium. There are two obvious counters to this. The first is that Imperial plasma technology is more powerful - this implies that the Imperium could produce weaponry with the same affects 9and less lethal side affects) as the Tau, but choose not to. Pure speculation, but I expect this is because the Imperium sees plasma as an anti-heavy infantry weaponry and 'juice it up' to ensure its potency against all forms of armour - the odd accidental deaths as a result mean nothing to the Imperium, who can call upon legions of soldiers to replace those occassional casulaties.

The Imperium also has examples of heavy plasma weaponry, which as far as I know the Tau don't have. I'm not only talking about standard plasma cannon, but also those mounted on battletanks and even on starships. The Imperium is perfectly capable of producing plasma weaponry large enough to mount on a titan, something the Tau cannot (to my knowledge) achieve. The Imperium also uses plasma as an energy source, and can create plasma grenades and other applications of plasma technology

Although plasma weaponry seems to be rarer in the Imperium, this to me suggests more to do with cost than anything else. The Imperium could probably equip every guardsman with a plasma rifle, carapace armour and assorted hi-tech kit, but the fact is they have billions upon billions of guardsmen and they don't need to give them all plasma weaponry, not when it is cheap and efficient to give them easily produced las weapons and back them up with heavier equipment to deal with bigger threats. The Space Marines have an arguably better weapon in the bolter, with its specialisation for assault and close range combat, and they too don't all need to lug around plasma we\ponry.

Battlesuits

- another area in which the Imperium seems to have no counters. The two biggest detractors are first that the Imperium has perfected jump pack technology in assault marines (although not on the same scale) and also in grav chutes and other 'deep strike' equipment.

Terminator armour is arguably much better than battlesuits in terms oif personal protection, with the added bonuses of being smaller (and therefore much better for ship-to-ship and tunnel fighting), useful in assault, and being able to make use of teleportation technology to appear in the heart of the enemy defences unexpectedly.

The Imperium also makes use of sentinels and dreadnoughts which can counter the tau walkers well, and although not created for the same types of combat are good examples of perfected walker technology.

Grav tanks

- personally I don't think the tau actually have true grav tanks, but rather use V/STOL technology on a limited scale. Nonetheless, the Imperium can produce the faster and more manouverable landspeeder, and although they do not have heavier examples of this form of technology, its questionable as to whether they need or want it, given its expense, need for high maintenance and the fact that it is outclassed both by fliers ad conventional battletanks (except in terms of speed as far as tanks are concerned). All Imperial cehicles have the immense advantages of durability, rugability and the ability to make use of local materials for fuel - which means that even when tau tech may seem better, in a protracted campaign the imperial tech is more practical and requires less technical support and dedicated facilities.

Space ship technology

- the Tau haven't really made many in roads here, and in some areas (notably warp) they are very much beginners. Nonetheless, the Imperium is capable of producing ships that are faster (SM ships) more powerful (the largest Imperial battleships) and has perfected its fleet as a single entity. Whether the Tau manage to catch up in this area remains to be seen, but the very best Imperial ship designs incorporate weapon systems such as nova cannon and lance turrets which have incredible range and killing power which the Tau can't compete with. Even on the subject of ordnance, the Imperium can produce torpedoes making use of such tech as vortex warheads and psychically guided weaponry.

Areas where the Tau don't have a look in

- personal power fields
- teleportation
- bioengneering
- terra forming
- vortex weaponry
- laser weaponry
- titans & mind impulse tech
- servitors (arguably a form of bio engineering, but suitably different)
- exterminatus/germ warfare
- navigation/warp travel
- astropathic communication
- other psychic uses (astronomicon, battlefield psychers, emperor's tarot)


If anybody can add/refute anything, please do. i do accept that the Tau are advancing fast, but I also thinkt hey have a long way to go before they surpass the imperium in technology. Opinions?

blitz589
26-06-2005, 17:01
Didn't the imperium atack the Tau, and loose, and that was before they actully had somewhat of a empire, also it dosnt matter how fast your land speeders are if they cant have a very large Anti tank weapon, there battlesuits are big, because they have like 3 weapons on them. And even there logic behind evrything is better, The Imperium think if they Bless the weapon it will work, Tau think if they build it it will work.

Comissar_Severinus
26-06-2005, 17:07
Rich, they don't have many of the things you listed just because they don't need (or have even thought) about it.
Eg. exterminatus/germ warfare is totally out of any Tau mind, it's far too brutal for them.
Warp travel, navigation: They just don't need it. Their worlds are located near their home planet, unlike those the Imperium controls.
Astropathy, astronomicon, battlefield psykers. It's really difficult to use technology to get psychic powers :p, specially since they don't know much about the Warp and don't have psykers at all.

Aside from that, I agree with you. Tau are advancing quickly -but not that quickly. I mean, the Adeptus Mechanicus is older than his whole race!! :chrome:

Asher
26-06-2005, 17:25
Didn't the imperium atack the Tau, and loose, and that was before they actully had somewhat of a empire,

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but 6'000 years priort to the 'present day' (in 40K) a Imperial Fleet was despached to exerminate an primitive alien species (the Tau). Unforutantely, that fleet got caught in a warpstorm (IIRC) and never reached its destination. The messy burocraty of the imperium soon forgot about those savage aliens.

LostTemplar
26-06-2005, 17:39
I believe he is refering to the Damocles Crusade. Which, was a half-hearted attempt by the Imperium to destroy the Tau. Of course it "failed". They withdrew voluntarilly, due to the inpending Tyranid Fleets (not by getting their sses handed to them, although, they did, up to point).

The Tau, in my view, haven't really experienced a full out war against them. All they had, was the equivalent of a skirmish, speaking in galatic terms.

Bruen
26-06-2005, 17:56
- personal power fields

Shield generators? They even have a rare (unique?) hardwired version.

- teleportation

Agreed.

- bioengneering

I don't see any info either way about Tau lacking this technology, but considering how quickly they evolve would they need it?

- terra forming

I don't see any info either way about Tau lacking this technology.

- vortex weaponry

Does this even exist any more? I though it disappeared with 2nd edition.

- laser weaponry

Why use lasers when pulse, plasma and ion technology fills that gap?

- titans & mind impulse tech

According to Firewarrior battlesuits use mind interface tech so its a lot more common for the Tau than for the imperium plus hardwired systems have to be something like bionics. Not having Titans is a choice rather than a technology deficit, they use low-orbit spacecraft like Mantas for that purpose.

- servitors (arguably a form of bio engineering, but suitably different)

What about drones? No need to mess about converting a body, just mass produce drones.

- exterminatus/germ warfare

I don't see any info either way about Tau lacking this technology.

- navigation/warp travel

No psychers means no true warp travel, its not a technology thing.

- astropathic communication

Ditto, this is not a technology thing.

- other psychic uses (astronomicon, battlefield psychers, emperor's tarot)

Ditto.


i do accept that the Tau are advancing fast, but I also thinkt hey have a long way to go before they surpass the imperium in technology. Opinions?

IMHO the key difference between Tau and Imperial tech is that the Tau understand and can mass-produce all of their stuff while the imperium cannot.

Take your example of Terminator armour vs XV8 Battlesuits, for close quarters fighting Terminator armor is superior but the Imperium cannot easily make more suits while the Tau can just build another factory for battlesuits. In addition its debatable which is better at medium and long range combat.

At its height Impreial technology was undoubtably higher than Tau tech is now, however the Imperium has fallen a long way from its golden age and will continue to loose technology for the forseeable future until the AdMech get a grip.


Grav tanks

- personally I don't think the tau actually have true grav tanks, but rather use V/STOL technology on a limited scale. Nonetheless, the Imperium can produce the faster and more manouverable landspeeder, and although they do not have heavier examples of this form of technology, its questionable as to whether they need or want it, given its expense, need for high maintenance and the fact that it is outclassed both by fliers ad conventional battletanks (except in terms of speed as far as tanks are concerned). All Imperial cehicles have the immense advantages of durability, rugability and the ability to make use of local materials for fuel - which means that even when tau tech may seem better, in a protracted campaign the imperial tech is more practical and requires less technical support and dedicated facilities.

According to the Tau codex and other published sources the Tau uses anti-grav for everything from drones to Orca dropships to civilian trains. Although I cannot find a reference to confirm it I see no reason why they would not also use it for tanks.

On the Landspeeder issue see Tau Tetras and Piranhas.

Why do you believe that Tau anti-grav requires "expense, need for high maintenance"? I see nothing in fluff to support this. For all you know Tau sealed-unit anti-grav drives and reactors may not require any maintenance at all, and use something as common as water or hydrogen as fuel.

Lets face it the Tau use anti-grav in 7 out of the 14 units in their army list, it cannot be that hard for them to maintain.

Nkari
26-06-2005, 18:26
Aye I agree.. And remember ppl, it is allways harder to make smaller things than big things, and one of the reasons why the Tau does not use Huge Plasma cannons on their ships is that they have rail weapons, and missiles to fill those places, and they are less violatile should they malfunction. They allso do not see a reason to use huge plasma cannons on their suits, for the reason that the power source and the weapon itself would be to big to use on the suit, and thus restricting its movement and/or armament. And I do belive Tau want movement and tactical flexibility instead of overwelming firepower and little or no movement.

Talkie Toaster
26-06-2005, 18:57
-Plasma weaponry [snippity]
That's not neccessarily correct. Tau don't have any high-power imperial style plasma weaponry, but they do make wide usage of ion weaponry, which uses pretty much the same principles but at lower energy levels. We know Tau are capable of producing ion weapons on a par with plasma weaponry (Ion Cannon), and it woudn't be too hard to add bigger batteries, up the voltage and have some very nice plasma stream weapons. Once again though, you try and make that kind of improvement and you end up with a less mobile, more bulky weapon that has no clear purpose (anti-infantry? They already have ion cannons, and railguns would be better for anti-tank), it just doesn't fit with Tau tactics.

Warlord Gnashgrod
26-06-2005, 19:41
I don't think Tau Tech is superior to Imperial tech. At least not currently. But the Tau do understand technology a lot better than the Imperium does. The imperium sees tech in a quasi-religious, superstitious way. The Tau understand it better and more analytically. Also, the Imperium is essentially stagnant. There are very few, if any, tech advances in the Imperium anymore. But the Tau are continuing to improve their tech and understanding of machines and science. So at the rate things are going, eventually the Tau tech will surpass Imperial Tech. It's just a matter of time.

Rich
26-06-2005, 21:35
First up Bruen, thanks for your reply.


- personal power fields

Shield generators? They even have a rare (unique?) hardwired version.


Agreed. However, that is battlesuit mounted - its not the same as having a personal field mounted in something as small as a rosarius. I'm assuming that the drone mounted shields require a decent amount of energy, hence the use of a drone rather than a small jewelry like item. Also, the Imerpium (to my knowledge) has several different forms of shield tech (basic shields, refractor, conversion and displacement) wheras the Tau are limited to the one form.



- bioengneering

I don't see any info either way about Tau lacking this technology, but considering how quickly they evolve would they need it?


I'm assuming that if there is absolutely no mention of something in the fluff, especially when it is something that is quite hard to achieve, then the tau do not have access to it. This is true of both terra forming and bio-engineering, but by bio engineering I am refering specifically to the creation of space marines, and that is not a road which I think the Tau have gone down (the mastery fo that field seems to be the one area in which the Imperium is completely unparalleled).




- vortex weaponry

Does this even exist any more? I though it disappeared with 2nd edition.


Vortex weaponry still exists, although is not as common. Fluff examples include the soul spear and vortex torpedoes and grenades. As this is warp based tech, i very much doubt that the Tau have access to it.



- laser weaponry

Why use lasers when pulse, plasma and ion technology fills that gap?


This is a very good point, and is also a reason why the Imperium doesn't need rail gun tech - why bother, when they can easily produce lascannon and the like for their anti-tank requirements?



- titans & mind impulse tech

According to Firewarrior battlesuits use mind interface tech so its a lot more common for the Tau than for the imperium plus hardwired systems have to be something like bionics. Not having Titans is a choice rather than a technology deficit, they use low-orbit spacecraft like Mantas for that purpose.


I'm not convinced that Tau have access to mind impluse units in the same way that the Imperium do, and I certainly don't think that they can produce titans (apart from the technological problems of producing walkers that large, the titans seem to have a certain degree of sentience in themselves, and the Imperial tech allows the crew to link together and with the titan in perfect harmony.



- servitors (arguably a form of bio engineering, but suitably different)

What about drones? No need to mess about converting a body, just mass produce drones.


True. Nonetheless, the Imperial tech also implies an astounding comprehension of human anatomy and physiology, and the Imperium is also capable of expanding the technology to create things like praetorian battle servitors - as far as I know, servitors can take a hell of a lot more punishment than drones also.




- navigation/warp travel

No psychers means no true warp travel, its not a technology thing.



True, but navigators are specifically bio-engineered (or were at some point) and are therefore in many ways a technological creation. In addition, the Imperium's ability to use psychic tech (force weapons, psychic hoods and also nullifiers and limiters) is a whole area in which the Tau have zero look in.






IMHO the key difference between Tau and Imperial tech is that the Tau understand and can mass-produce all of their stuff while the imperium cannot.

Take your example of Terminator armour vs XV8 Battlesuits, for close quarters fighting Terminator armor is superior but the Imperium cannot easily make more suits while the Tau can just build another factory for battlesuits. In addition its debatable which is better at medium and long range combat.

At its height Impreial technology was undoubtably higher than Tau tech is now, however the Imperium has fallen a long way from its golden age and will continue to loose technology for the forseeable future until the AdMech get a grip. [QUOTE}

Very true. However, I think that the AdMech understand their tech to a far greater extent than is commonly believed, and can build things quite easily when the mood takes them. Mostly, I think they limit tech for political and power considerations, as well as money. because the AdMech is effectively independent to the Imperium, they need to maintain a monoploy, and do so by limiting the supply of certain weaponry to ensure that the Imperium is dependent on them.

[QUOTE=Bruen]

Why do you believe that Tau anti-grav requires "expense, need for high maintenance"? I see nothing in fluff to support this. For all you know Tau sealed-unit anti-grav drives and reactors may not require any maintenance at all, and use something as common as water or hydrogen as fuel.

Lets face it the Tau use anti-grav in 7 out of the 14 units in their army list, it cannot be that hard for them to maintain.

The impression that i have of the Tau is that they don't go in for extended field operations, leaving such things to the kroot an other auxillaries. This implies that their equipment is not designed to be used in extended campaigns without maintenance, and needs constant attention - this is also influenced by the Imperial attitude to such tech, which suggests that it is of limited ruggedness and not widely issued to other imperial units because of the impracticality of its extended use away from tech priest support. I'm assuming that the tau would have the same problems.

As for whether the Tau have anti-grav, I'm assuming from the models that their tanks are not anti-grav, as they seem to have V/STOl type engines. Drones may have anti grav but it seems to be on quite a limited plane (a few feet above the ground) and their battlesuits use jump packs.


Aye I agree.. And remember ppl, it is allways harder to make smaller things than big things, and one of the reasons why the Tau does not use Huge Plasma cannons on their ships is that they have rail weapons, and missiles to fill those places, and they are less violatile should they malfunction. They allso do not see a reason to use huge plasma cannons on their suits, for the reason that the power source and the weapon itself would be to big to use on the suit, and thus restricting its movement and/or armament. And I do belive Tau want movement and tactical flexibility instead of overwelming firepower and little or no movement.

The impression that i get is that the only Imperial plasma weaponry which overheats is the man portable stuff, because of the lack of sufficient cooling. Ship and titan mounted weaponry doesn't seem to suffer from this problem, so those disadvantages are no longer inherent.

There seems to be a lot of conflict in terms of why would the Tau want particular examples of Imperial tech, and that is a fair point. Nonetheless, even though for example tau don't have heavy assault troops to use in a teleport attack, the fact that they don't have teleporters still shows a lack of technology in that regard. I particularly agree with Bruen's assertion about terminators and battlesuites being incomparable in some respects - in many ways it might even be better to compare battlesuits to landspeeders, as these two have roughly the same battlefield role. Terminators seem to be a niche troop choice and are mostly a relic of ship-to-ship boarding actions than surface warfare really.

Brother Smith
26-06-2005, 21:39
Remember with Imperial tech. that they didn't develop it, REAL humans from the DAoT created it, The Imperium merely recovered it (And the AdMech did it at that!).

Comissar_Severinus
26-06-2005, 22:29
the fact that they don't have teleporters still shows a lack of technology in that regard.

Indeed. Even Orks have teleporters.

Son of Morkai
26-06-2005, 22:34
Not just have teleporters, they have damn good teleporters. And force fields. But the knowledge to make them is hard-coded into their DNA, so that doesn't really count.

Xisor
26-06-2005, 22:48
Warp Tech- The Tau *have* it, they reverse engineered it from a spaceship crashed on a moon in orbit around T'au(BFG Fluff from Armada). However, what they lack is the adequate 'psyker' or equivalent to guide them from Realspace to Warpspace. The Niccassar and Kroot can't, as psychic as they are, they are not 'Navigators'. Another crucial factor here is that the Tau have no Geller Fields to protect them inside the Warp. I'm not sure how long it took humans to figure them out...However, I digress. It is, it would seem, technologically possible to make a warp drive that doesn't require a living psyker, or then there is a large clue that the Demiurg *do* have Psykers. Whilst the Tau version of a 'warp jump'(a Warp Dive to the Tau, not actually entering the warp, but bouncing off) is far more reliable, the Imperial method *is* faster.

Grav/Anti-Grav Tech- A key point here is it's extensive use in Tau Spaceships. They have huge Gravitic Engines, they uses Gravity manipulation where the Imperium uses Void Shields, they are propelled by creating Grav fields and 'riding them'. The Tau *are* well clued up here it would seem. The Imperium's 'premiere' Grac tech(the Landspeeder) is just as 'constrained' by the limits of Grav tech as the Tau are(unlike Eldar Falcons and such which also act as aircraft in some fluff situations).

Psyker-related- The Tau methods, whilst more reliable are far more inferior to their Imperial counterparts. The Tau have no 'strictly' FTL communications, they *must* use messenger boats to make jumps to carry messages, much like 'runners' of old. The Imperium can, less reliably, communicate far more easily over interstellar distances. Imperial communiques are also unlikely to be intercepted or destroyed en-route(as could happen to Tau in a war-scenario). Otherwise, the Tau use of the telekinetic psykers the Niccassar are in far 'excess' of the prevaling psychic powers of the Imperium. The Niccassar steer and manouver their vessels using psychic powers, last I'd heard only Alpha Class psykers were up to this, with the highest sanctioned psykers of the Imperium being able to do nothing quite as severe.

Bionengineering- I think the knowledge is there, but more importantly I think the Tau are exerting a restraint not evidence during the Dark Age of Technology with humans. Likely the Tau are *very* strict about genetic engineering and such(how would a mutant/X-Tau fit into Tau society?). However, my educated guess would be that Tau bioengineering *is* by leaps and bounds inferior to the Imperium. They *could*, they just don't want to....(Note they also have Kroot on their side, who, if necessary would make excellent test subjects for bioengineering)

Laser Tech- My prediction here would be that the Tau lack this, *alot*. Imperial Lances far outstrip Tau Ion Cannons in space, and a Lascannon, in comparison to a Railgun is far more compact and manouverable. Whilst the railgun and Ion tech *is* equally powerful, I would venture it is nowhere near as technologically advanced, not to lascannon standards anyway. Lasgun tech, I can imagine the Tau could quickly reverse engineer it, but they don't as Pulse Rifles are still far better and are still an affordable option for the smaller Tau Empire.

Servitor/MIU/Cyborg Tech- The Imperium(or rather mankind) *had* AI tech, but throw it out after the Golden/Iron/Bronze-man fiascos. The Imperium doesn't use it through choice, IMO. MIU however, the Imperium is capably of using en-mass and excellently. The Tau however can use it reliably so that, except in rare instances, no Tau-machine bonding is necessery. The Tau won't feel 'affinity' with their machines, unlike Titans and Starships(and presumably Power Armour, Tanks, Fighters, everything that has hardwired interfaces) unless suffering Battlesuit Neurosis. Again, where the Tau are more reliable and 'capable' with what they have, I think it is safe to say the Imperial Tech is still far in advance.

AI- Here's the trick. The Imperium fudged this big time, and now 'never' use it. The *most* significant AIs are the mini-AIs(Machine Spirits) of Vehicles and Vessels(Titans, Landraiders, Starships etc). These could be a leftover of 'preImperial' AI that the Ad Mech is to fearful to tamper with. The Tau however, have use of limited AI in the form of Drones and Drone networks. These are extensive in Tau society, so should they ever encounter an 'I, Robot' it's going to take one hell of a 'Fresh Prince of Borkan' to save them. I suspect that the Demiurg, with their extensive automisation technology, are advising the Tau in this regards.

Overall, the Tau are *far* inferior to Imperial tech, just on a 'level' or 'how far along the tree' standard. Prevaling however, the Tau are more reliable and far better understood than Imperial tech 'on the whole'. But, irregardless I'd suggest that the Imperial tech is far more advanced at 'it's highest level', but that on a common or average level the Tau are quite a few levels up on the Imperium.(Lasgun tech is very impressive, but I'd still put it that mass produced and reliable plasma(pulse) tech is still at least one up on it).

Teleportation, Tau are having none of it, because they can't! :eek: Even the orks out-do them here! :p

Xisor

PS
Heh, there's a very humorous part in Armada that details the early Tau fleet where, in their first battles with ork fleets they were(to paraphrase) completely outclassed: they [the orks] had better shields, better armour, were faster, more manouverable and better armed than the Tau ships. Admitedly this was before the founding of Tau'n(the second Tau sept), so was a *long* time ago, and the Tau have come a long way. But it's still amusing.

Shinzui
26-06-2005, 22:55
How advance you are in a certain technology is based on how small you can make it while still being functional. The Railgun to the Rail rifle is a good example. The simple fact is that if you can make a smaller version a larger version is far easier to make.



plasma weaponry

Tau Plasma weaponry ranges from the Pulse pistol (mounted on escort drones for the Water caste) right though standard Pulse weaponry to the Plasma rifle.

As I said before making larger versions of the same weaponry (and as such more destructive) is far easier than making smaller versions.


Battlesuits

- another area in which the Imperium seems to have no counters. The two biggest detractors are first that the Imperium has perfected jump pack technology in assault marines (although not on the same scale) and also in grav chutes and other 'deep strike' equipment.

Battlsuits have Jet Packs
Assault Marines have Jump packs

Jet packs keep the wearer in flight indefinately, Jump packs keep the wearer in flight for periods of time. They are complete different types of jump engines as Jet packs are slower over long distances but more agile in flight while jump packs can attain flight more quickly and faster over distance.

Grav chites, well since Tau cadres are known to be able to dismount from Manta missile destroyers at high altitude using personal jet packsss I see little difference. (see Tau codex)


Terminator armour is arguably much better than battlesuits in terms oif personal protection, with the added bonuses of being smaller (and therefore much better for ship-to-ship and tunnel fighting), useful in assault, and being able to make use of teleportation technology to appear in the heart of the enemy defences unexpectedly.

Index Xenos Tau say Battlesuits are equal to tactical dreadnought armour, since we don't know every aspect of battlesuit operations and technologys (and limit for terminator armour) making a decision which is better is irrelevant. The Battlesuit is severly toned down from the fluff as can be argued space marines are but Battlesuits are considered fast moving agile dreadnoughts in kill team and For the Emperor novels.

Considerable weaker and different to how they finally turned up in the game.


The Imperium also makes use of sentinels and dreadnoughts which can counter the tau walkers well, and although not created for the same types of combat are good examples of perfected walker technology.

Quote so, though they both are very slow combard to the XV8, and cannot match the firepower of a broadside.


Grav tanks

- personally I don't think the tau actually have true grav tanks, but rather use V/STOL technology on a limited scale.

It does on the front of the Tank (see the design sketches for the devilfish). Also Drones have anti-grav engines.


Nonetheless, the Imperium can produce the faster and more manouverable landspeeder, and although they do not have heavier examples of this form of technology, its questionable as to whether they need or want it, given its expense, need for high maintenance

Lol double standards, if its advance and there is no mention of it the Tau don't have it but if it's the same case as the Imperium they probably do have but choose not to use it because they have more effecient weapons/tech. LOL

Since they can build land speeders I assume those that can make them can reproduce larger versions as I said above.

Also something that should be pointed out that Devilfish are able to achieve orbit under their own power. Something that nothing the Imperium has is able to at that size.


Space ship technology

- the Tau haven't really made many in roads here, and in some areas (notably warp) they are very much beginners.

They are hardly beginners in their version of war tech.


Nonetheless, the Imperium is capable of producing ships that are faster (SM ships) more powerful (the largest Imperial battleships) and has perfected its fleet as a single entity.

I'll see what the Commerce protection fleet is like before I comment as it's their 3rd phase expansion fleet and is apparently going to be quite fast and agile.



- personal power fields

Hard-wired shield generator (hard-wired equipment is the size of jewelery btw) which might be rare but no rarer than much of the Imperiums shield tech.


- teleportation

Quite so, though Tau don't need teleportation that much and the Imperium doesn't use it regularily.


- bioengneering

Bioengineering is a pretty broad catagory, making space marines is hardly the focus of it.


- terra forming

Haven't seen any mention of the Imperium doing this.


- vortex weaponry

It would defeat the purpose of the Tau waging war in the first place


- laser weaponry

I point to Gue'vesa for the obvious answer to this one.


- titans & mind impulse tech

Manta Missile destroyers and the White shark are far arguably more advance and just as effective.

Battlesuits use a Neural interface, Hard wired equipment must use it as it's too small to have controls (sometimes ususally actually inside the Tau).


- servitors (arguably a form of bio engineering, but suitably different)

Why drones are far more advanced, Servitors can only do basic tasks, Drones can do advance strategies and work independently.


- exterminatus/germ warfare

Defeat the purpose of war in the first place.


- navigation/warp travel

Tau do have warp travel, Safer and consistent, just slightly slower.


- astropathic communication

Tau have their own version of interstellar communication, though they do have an advantage against Tyranids.


- other psychic uses (astronom[icon, battlefield psychers, emperor's tarot)

Psychic technology is hardly comparable. It's like saying a alien race with four arms is more advance because it's using two guns instead of one. Psychic tech for the most part is racial talent. Then again Tau don't have problems with Daemons and chaos cults turning up in their cities.

Somethings the Imperium doesn't have (some of the things I list can be found in the Inquisitor water caste profile).

Universal translater - Can translate nearly any language and when spoken though can translate the language to every different person in range. So a Tarellian would hear his language, a human would hear his and an Ork would hear his while the Tau is talking Tau.

EMP weaponry - There has been no evidence the Imperium even has larger versions let alone smaller version. Even power armour can be disabled by it.

Hand held disruption pod.

Hand held holographic projector.

Tau tracking system which makes long range fire from Tau ships more accurate.

More Advanced Turret system.

Deflector Shield

Jet Pack techonology

The Smart Missile System and Seeker Missiles (far more advance guidance missile than anything the Imperium has used)

Gravitic Engine - while it's arguable that normal Imperial engines and warp engines are better for calculated warp jumps without the navigator the Tau system is far better and can achieve almost a normal warp jump.

Ether Drive - The Interstellar capability for the Manta Missile destroyer. Much slower then what is used by Tau capital ships over interstellar distances. I know of nothing the Imperium has this size which can achieve that.

Interstellar communication that don't need psykers.

As Xisor said the Tau aren't as advance in the Tech tree but what they do have and understand often is more developed than Imperial counterparts. ( though he was wrong about they have to use messenger boats for interstellar communication :p )

Comissar_Severinus
26-06-2005, 23:01
PS
Heh, there's a very humorous part in Armada that details the early Tau fleet where, in their first battles with ork fleets they were(to paraphrase) completely outclassed: they [the orks] had better shields, better armour, were faster, more manouverable and better armed than the Tau ships. Admitedly this was before the founding of Tau'n(the second Tau sept), so was a *long* time ago, and the Tau have come a long way. But it's still amusing.

:wtf: What the hell were the Tau flying in? Rowing boats? :p

Falkus
26-06-2005, 23:04
Agreed. However, that is battlesuit mounted - its not the same as having a personal field mounted in something as small as a rosarius

I'll point you to Aun'Shi and his hardwired shield generator.


I'm assuming that if there is absolutely no mention of something in the fluff, especially when it is something that is quite hard to achieve, then the tau do not have access to it.

Warhammer 40,000 is a war game, and the codexes reflect that, with a primary focus on military. Just because something isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's not present.


This is a very good point, and is also a reason why the Imperium doesn't need rail gun tech - why bother, when they can easily produce lascannon and the like for their anti-tank requirements?

Or rather, it's because that if railguns had ever been developed by humanity, the Ad Mech haven't rediscovered it yet.


and I certainly don't think that they can produce titans

Primarily because Tau combat doctrine disavows the use of giant walkers.


The impression that i have of the Tau is that they don't go in for extended field operations, leaving such things to the kroot an other auxillaries.

Where'd you get that impression from? Commander Farsight held out for a hell of a long time during his campaign against the orks before being relieved.


Drones may have anti grav but it seems to be on quite a limited plane (a few feet above the ground)

Then why can they deepstrike?


and their battlesuits use jump packs.

Everything I've seen indicates anti-grav. The suits certainly don't look like they're using any form of rocket propulsion.

Bruen
26-06-2005, 23:07
First up Bruen, thanks for your reply.

No probs - I always enjoy these discussions as long as they remain constructive.


Agreed. However, that is battlesuit mounted - its not the same as having a personal field mounted in something as small as a rosarius.

One of the Tau special characters has a hard-wired shield generator implanted in his body or worn a jewlery. Its not common but Tau tech is up to it.


I'm assuming that if there is absolutely no mention of something in the fluff, especially when it is something that is quite hard to achieve, then the tau do not have access to it.

In that case you are already skewing the argument in favour of the Imperium simply because they have more fluff written about them.

There is so little Tau fluff that I feel it is unfair to say "if it doesn't appear in the fluff then they can't do it". I think that it would be more reasonable to say that we don't know.


but by bio engineering I am refering specifically to the creation of space marines, and that is not a road which I think the Tau have gone down (the mastery fo that field seems to be the one area in which the Imperium is completely unparalleled).

I agree that the Tau do not seem to have tried to create a race of generticaly engineered warriors, but is that because they cannot or choose not to? Given that they already have the Fire caste devoted and evolved to fight I am not sure that they would feel the need.


Vortex weaponry still exists, although is not as common. Fluff examples include the soul spear and vortex torpedoes and grenades. As this is warp based tech, i very much doubt that the Tau have access to it.

I will take your word for it on the fluff angle, I am not 100% up on current Imperial fluff. As I have said before I do not think that the lack of warp-based items is a technology issue. Without psychers no race can use them.


This is a very good point, and is also a reason why the Imperium doesn't need rail gun tech - why bother, when they can easily produce lascannon and the like for their anti-tank requirements?

Agreed, the Imperium and the Tau do not have to produce identical items, just things that serve the same purpose.


I'm not convinced that Tau have access to mind impluse units in the same way that the Imperium do, and I certainly don't think that they can produce titans (apart from the technological problems of producing walkers that large, the titans seem to have a certain degree of sentience in themselves, and the Imperial tech allows the crew to link together and with the titan in perfect harmony.

It probably isn't exactly the same but it does the same thing, allowing crew to have mental control over their equipment.

I don't know if the Tau could produce giant walking war robots but my point is that they don't need them, they use Mantas for that task. Could they produce a direct copy of an imperial titan from scratch? I doubt it, but that just makes them different.


True. Nonetheless, the Imperial tech also implies an astounding comprehension of human anatomy and physiology, and the Imperium is also capable of expanding the technology to create things like praetorian battle servitors - as far as I know, servitors can take a hell of a lot more punishment than drones also.

There are lots of kinds of drones, like heavy gun drones and even drone sentry turrets. Sure praetorian battle servitors are tougher than Tau gun drones, but as we do not have stats for either sides entire range of servitors/drones I think the jury is still out on this one.


True, but navigators are specifically bio-engineered (or were at some point) and are therefore in many ways a technological creation.

While thats true its also something that the Imperium used to be capable of. Could they still create navigators and space marines from scratch with their current technology? I doubt it.


In addition, the Imperium's ability to use psychic tech (force weapons, psychic hoods and also nullifiers and limiters) is a whole area in which the Tau have zero look in.

Again this isn't a tech thing IMHO


Very true. However, I think that the AdMech understand their tech to a far greater extent than is commonly believed, and can build things quite easily when the mood takes them.

As long as it comes from an STC template.
I remember reading somewhere that it took them 5000 years to develop a new aerospace fighter from scratch.


Mostly, I think they limit tech for political and power considerations, as well as money. because the AdMech is effectively independent to the Imperium, they need to maintain a monoploy, and do so by limiting the supply of certain weaponry to ensure that the Imperium is dependent on them.

If so then they are shooting themselves in the cybernetic foot, for example when they loose irreplacable forgeworlds to Orcs and Tyranids and Chaos.


The impression that i have of the Tau is that they don't go in for extended field operations, leaving such things to the kroot an other auxillaries. This implies that their equipment is not designed to be used in extended campaigns without maintenance, and needs constant attention - this is also influenced by the Imperial attitude to such tech, which suggests that it is of limited ruggedness and not widely issued to other imperial units because of the impracticality of its extended use away from tech priest support. I'm assuming that the tau would have the same problems.

Thats a lot of assumptions there.

I know from the Tau Codex that the Tau engaged the Imperial Forces in "many months of terrible fighting" so they do have extended deployment capabilities.

Nothing in the fluff indicates that Tau tech requires excessive maintenance or that this is a problem.

IMHO thats just wishful thinking on your part as is your statement to the effect that "if the imperial equivalent requires a lot of maintenance then so must the Tau version". You have nothing to back it up that I have seen.


As for whether the Tau have anti-grav, I'm assuming from the models that their tanks are not anti-grav, as they seem to have V/STOl type engines. Drones may have anti grav but it seems to be on quite a limited plane (a few feet above the ground) and their battlesuits use jump packs.

Assumptions.....Other Tau vehicles use anti-grav for support and normal engines for propulsions - just like land speeders.

The Tau codex states that "Tau jetpacks are extremely agile, combineing anti-gravitic and jet technology" so all drones and suites (apart fropm the XV88) use anti-grav.


I particularly agree with Bruen's assertion about terminators and battlesuites being incomparable in some respects - in many ways it might even be better to compare battlesuits to landspeeders, as these two have roughly the same battlefield role.

Thats true but the same still applies, I remember reading that the Imperium has a hard time manufacturing the anti-grav engines for landspeeders because the engines themselves are made from STC templates that the AdMech no longer understands.

A lot of Imperial stuff is like this, take the Land Raider. The Imperium can manufacture them using STC data but they don't understand how they work anymore.

Xisor
27-06-2005, 00:26
How am I wrong about the message boats for interstellar comms? Unless I missed something it is part and parcel of the reason for the huge strings of Waystations in the void between stars of the Tau empire. Messenger ships make short jumps carrying massive data stores and use highly efficient close range data transfer to pass on data when they arrive at their destination. Thus a messenger would make a series of jumps from one fleet ot another to deliver the data 'in person' as it were. It's described in BFG:Armada.

And as for the flying Rowing boats, effectively just giant space shuttles. How would our present day spacefleet cope against Orks? They were flying Explorers against orks. Colonisation and exploration vessels when the Tau really were young and naive with not a clue about the wider galaxy...


Xisor

Shinzui
27-06-2005, 00:40
I'd say the message boat system is faster method but as demonstrated by the fluff in the battle report in WD264 the outposts main transmission array was taken out by the Tyranids and he was forced to use the message boat as the secondary method of communication.

I also point to the Por'hui news broadcast which was mentioned as a live broadcast. Live would not be referred to terminology in a recorded session in the media industry.

It wouldn't make much sense for waystation to work in the passing the parcel setup (waystations are not mentioned as part of the system in BFG: Armada) that messge boat operate. It makes more sense that Warstations relay communication when the signal starts to degrade because of distance.

I imagine the Message boat would be a system used for fast communication for fleet or for ships and colonies outside the range of the Waystation network. But a standard communications network would be used by colonies which do not need fast communication.

Xisor
27-06-2005, 01:05
I'm sorry to be blunt about this, as your assumptions are pretty good, but *this is the way it is*. BFG:Armada, the other big fluff resource for the Tau, specifically details it.

I'll try and get a quote.



The problem of communication over interstellar distances had to be resolved as well. Lacking telepathic communication a tau fleet, once despatched, was immediately on its own, unable to communicate with its superiors or other elements of the fleet. Strings of waystations were established to relay messages but this was only effective over relatively short distances. Accordingly the Skether'qan(tans. Messenger) class starship was built. The Messenger was tiny by comparison to the rest of the fleet and was crewed by a single pilot aided by the most advanced drones. By reducing the crew to a minimum the Messenger was able to be fitted with the smallest gravitic drive capable of performing Warp dives. Its systems were optimised for for storage and relay of vast quantities of data. Urgent messages could now be transmitted by vast relays of Messengers each diving in turn and passing its data to the next vessel in the chain. The method was still clumsy, and coordinating separate fleet formations remains a Kor'vattra(tans. Fleet) weakness neccessitating extremely rigourous planning.


And thats that settled. BFG Armada Pg 97

Xisor

Getz
27-06-2005, 01:07
I'm not convinced that Tau have access to mind impluse units in the same way that the Imperium do, and I certainly don't think that they can produce titans (apart from the technological problems of producing walkers that large, the titans seem to have a certain degree of sentience in themselves, and the Imperial tech allows the crew to link together and with the titan in perfect harmony.

You can be as unconvinced as you like, but I'm afraid it's laid out in black and white in the Firewarrior novel. It doesn't necessarily work in the same way, but it clearly works very well therefore we can state with some authority that the Tau have a highly developed "mind impulse" control system of some sort.



The impression that i have of the Tau is that they don't go in for extended field operations, leaving such things to the kroot an other auxillaries. This implies that their equipment is not designed to be used in extended campaigns without maintenance, and needs constant attention - this is also influenced by the Imperial attitude to such tech, which suggests that it is of limited ruggedness and not widely issued to other imperial units because of the impracticality of its extended use away from tech priest support. I'm assuming that the tau would have the same problems.

Why should you assume that? There is no evidence that Tau Anti-grav is unreliable. In fact, it's very ubiquity in Tau society suggests quite the opposite - would you sell an anti-grav car to a consumer society that had fundamental unresolved reilability issuses?

Furthermore, we can categorically state that the Tau do go on extended campaigns. They did so before they allied with the Kroot and they did so during the Damocles Crusade.

The problem here is that whenever you are making an assumption when faced with a lack of evidence, you are always making positive assumptions with respect to the Imperium, but negative assumptions regarding the Tau.

As has already been stated on this thread, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The Imperium really has very little or no ability to Terraform planets in M41. We have no idea how good the Tau are at Terraforming, but as NASA seems to think that basic terraforing technology will be vital if Humanity is ever to leave the Solar system, we can assume that can probably terraform a planet like Mars into something habitable.

Unless you can put together an objective and unbiased position then I'm afraid (and I don't mean to sound mean, but this is basic debating skills stuff) that your opinions are worthless.

Shinzui
27-06-2005, 01:11
The problem of communication over interstellar distances had to be resolved as well. Lacking telepathic communication a tau fleet, once despatched, was immediately on its own, unable to communicate with its superiors or other elements of the fleet.

Like I said. Dispatched would mean they are not in Tau space or nearly a colony so would not be nearly the waystation network.


Strings of waystations were established to relay messages but this was only effective over relatively short distances.

Like between colonies?

That passage says fleet. It says nothing about Colony communication. So that proves nothing about what you said

The Tau have no 'strictly' FTL communications, they *must* use messenger boats to make jumps to carry messages

Cloudscape_online
27-06-2005, 01:25
The tau do have anti-grav, just as the eldar do. The flying bases are anough to prove that. In 40K games it is more convenient to have the models on the tabletop, rather than having a 'ground level' battlefield and a 'Sky Level' battlefield. It's just impractical.

Just because fluff doesn't mention their advances in Biotech, it does not mean that they don't have or understand it. Any race with a concept of war will have explored any and all avenues of death to possibly inflict upon their opponents. If there is nothing that the Tau are allergic/poisoned by, or if they do not get infected by bacteria or virii, then there is no reason for them to explore bio-weaponry.

Xisor
27-06-2005, 01:31
Well, the only alternative I see is a series of Waystations being able to intercommunicate using light(excluding complex theories on quantum entanglement communications). In this manner it'd take 300 Years for a message to traverse the Empire one side to the other. I really don't envisage this being the case.

Rather...Waystation strings *in* system, from the Biospheres and inhabited locales to the outerparts of the systems into 'deep space' where typical warp jump points are located. From here, a Messenger would presumably, pick up the signal and set the message onto a mainstream messenger 'route' to delivery to a Hub, where more messengers would transfer the relevant details and carry them off into the empire. From there, the messengers would drop the message at the outerlimits of a starsystem, and the Waystation chain would tansmit it back in system.

Forgive me, I'd misread you're original points and had taken you to be meaning instantaneous interstellar comms, hence why I jumped on the high horse :angel:

That said, Waystation relays over short distances can't mean much more than those that tend to be measured in AU(or that *we'd* measure in AUs). (If you start using Light Years then I'd say thats far to long for a message, civillian or not!). Finally, a curious hole in GWs fluff for the Tau is them living in a Globular Cluster. Theory points to Globular Clusters being old and essentially dead and thought to have no planets. Of course the theory could be complete ********, but you'd think GW wouldn't simply pluck it out of a hat...

Xisor

Shinzui
27-06-2005, 01:44
Yeah thats a good theory. Though that would invalidate the fluff I mentioned earlier. My theory on waystation is they basically work like a repeater in a Star or Mesh topology network and strengthen the signal they recieve.

I don't know much about different types of intercommunication but the Tau can always use one of the many Sci-fi communications methods for long distance communication that has been used (can't think of any off the top of my head).

So in my theory you'd have colony A which depending on distance might have three or four waystations to relay communications to colony. This would explain when it's mention that waystations are found in the void between systems (I think I don't have books with me at the moment but I'll look up when I get home), not only a rendezvous point but also a point to send commincations to colonies.

And this would match up with the BFG fluff. A String of waystations oculd not take fleet comminications as it's range is too short and the distance is only achieved by using multiple stations. so any fleet wanting to communicate without messengers would basically be at the station (as I doubt a starships would have enough power or size to have as powerful comminications array as a colony) to relay messages.

So when it comes to fleet. The Messengers basically function as a movable 'waystation network' which is only different in fuction that the messengers actually have to travel to the next messenger to relay rather than sent it in whatever form the Tau would over a waystation network.

The reason I like this theory is because it works in both the bfg fluff and the previous fluff. Though I could be completely wrong as the BFG team like ignoring previous fluff (like the Ether drive on the Manta grumble gumble).

Hopefully Tau fluff will become detailed enough we can know the true answer :/

Khaine's Messenger
27-06-2005, 05:35
Nonetheless, the Imperium can produce the faster and more manouverable landspeeder, and although they do not have heavier examples of this form of technology (...)

Mind you, the Imperium is not without other S/VTOL craft (some with antigrav assist), most of which outstrip the landspeeder in terms of usefulness or multitasking (Valkyrie/Vulture). Of course, this doesn't even begin to excuse the lack of things like helicopters for close-in air support...not sci-fi enough, I suppose (although presumably the major limitation here would be flight ceiling...everything in 40k seems to require at least orbital capability). That aside, the landspeeder is absolutely nothing to be proud of unless it's being used in manners other than presented in the SM 'dex....

Nagothrand
27-06-2005, 07:38
But remember, The Imperium can still make anti-grav motors small enough to fit inside servo-skulls which are evn smaller than drones, as well as anti-grav suspensors for heavy bolters. This shows they at least have the capability to equal Tau anti-grav tech.

Briareos
27-06-2005, 10:31
The Tau understand what they build and can improve upon it. Given all the fluff about lost tech and production problems, does the AdMech even understand what it builds ? Or is it just blindly following half-faded blue prints ? Imperial tech knowledge is not stagnant - it is decadent.

Given that we can not separate what the Imperium builds (understand) from what it simply replicates (does not understand), comparing tech levels is pretty much a dead end discussion unless some guidelines are set down.

Cloudscape_online
27-06-2005, 20:39
"Imperial tech knowledge is not stagnant - it is decadent." :eyebrows:

Decadent? :wtf: Slaanesh tech is 'decadent' (and pretty vulgar too). Imperial Tech is more like archaic lore. It's closer to religious magical practices like Judaism. Most rabbi' don't know why they perform certain rituals, but they know they must for everything to work.

Auzu
27-06-2005, 20:44
But remember, The Imperium can still make anti-grav motors small enough to fit inside servo-skulls which are evn smaller than drones, as well as anti-grav suspensors for heavy bolters. This shows they at least have the capability to equal Tau anti-grav tech.

In fire warrior the air cast pilots make use of hand sized flying droes so The Tau also have smaller drones than the "war" version in 40k.

Khaine's Messenger
27-06-2005, 21:55
This shows they at least have the capability to equal Tau anti-grav tech.

Of course they can. The problem is that these technologies are not applied consistantly, broadly, or in uses that would be, well, helpful. The entire approach humans have to technology in 40k is just bizarre...on some worlds that appear on their face to be less technologically adept than the merchant-dominated hover-ramas of "Abnett-verse," the wheel is considered a sinful invention of the Great Enemy, and as such they have horse-drawn hover-carts!

As has been stated quite frequently, there are aspects of Imperial technology that the Tau at present cannot hope to match, but the Tau are much better about consistantly applying their technological prowess across the board.

Briareos
27-06-2005, 23:14
Decadent? :wtf: Slaanesh tech is 'decadent' (and pretty vulgar too). Imperial Tech is more like archaic lore. It's closer to religious magical practices like Judaism. Most rabbi' don't know why they perform certain rituals, but they know they must for everything to work.
Decadent : a lowering of standards; decay. Historically, decadence is the begining of the end for social structures. The term can be applied to any broadly decaying system.

The Imperial technological base is constantly decaying, the standard of production are regularly lowered because of the loss of knowledfe. It is decadent.

Dakkagor
28-06-2005, 00:31
In regard to titans. . .


crew to link together and with the titan in perfect harmony

Rubbish. Read Dictato or any of the other titan fluff sections, and you'll see what I mean. Titans are possessed by vast, angry war gods of AIs, with the intelligence of grizzly bears and an attitude to match. To control a titan, you have to beat the damn thing into mental submission like an angry pitbull, with a mind made out of stainless adamantium. The admech recruit far and wide for their princeps, as only the strongest willed can pilot a titan to war.

I can't imagine the same thing with tau battlesuits. A tau AI would be automatically subservient to its owner, and probably more intelligent anyway.

A second point is that only Titans and large warships seem to use mindimpulse tech in the imperium. Space marine power armour and dreadnought armour instead rely on the black carapace nerve data, which copies and augments the brains signals to the muscles, to make the wearer faster and stronger. Something subtly different. Power armour and dreadnought armour you move, and it moves with you. Mind impulse, you merely think, and it moves.

Iracundus
28-06-2005, 04:41
The Imperial Armor Vol. 1 from Forgeworld sums up the Imperium/Adeptus Mechanicus attitude to technology pretty well. If there is a problem, they don't think about trying to make a piece of technology better or more efficient. They think about throwing more people at it, making it bigger, pumping more power into it.

I'd say the Imperium has trouble whenever something has to be compact yet high performance due to their superstitious understanding of their technology. The Imperium can get performance but only at massive size, inefficiency, unreliability, or safety problems. The Imperium can get compactness in things like servo-skulls and Landspeeders but such applications are relatively low powered.

That's why the Imperium doesn't have major safety problems with plasma weaponry above a certain size but has trouble making safe plasma sidearms. When you're in a starship, it's possible to add a coolant system or another generator to generate shielding. Miniaturizing everything down is what the Imperium has trouble doing consistently.

They can generate gravity on starships, where they can follow the old tactic of pumping more power into everything and space is not at a premium, and have servo-skulls with small low powered anti-grav units, but they lack anti-grav tanks which fall into that size range where things are big but where the anti-grav unit must still be compact. Landspeeders mass nowhere near a tank so the Imperium can get compactness where high power output is not needed.

Their starship engine technology has slowly declined over the millenia (read the BFG rulebook) to the point where they had to phase out grand cruiser class ships due to inability to produce sufficiently powerful yet compact engines. However, the Imperium still produces battleship engines without problem presumably because those high output engines do not need to be as compact to fit into the hull.

Olannon
28-06-2005, 16:56
teh tau are much more organised then teh imperium. their tech accelerates at a much higher speed ad they are much better at mass production. Teh tau ownzzz

Flame Boy
30-06-2005, 21:43
Well, the Imperium can still maintain larger anti-grav vehicles, though they are extremely rare. Examples include the Arbites Grav Tank in the Inquisitor vehicle rules and in "Liber Mechanicus Part XVI", concerning explorator parties. http://www.portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4431

I guess the closest equivalent that the Imperium has to Tau Railgun technology is the Leman Russ Vanquisher turret in battlefield role, and the production of that is probably in decline now that the Gryphonne Forge World has been consumed by the Tyranids, as I think only one other Forge World is supposedly producing their own pattern of the turret. The Imperium probably have larger weapons that use similar principles to the railgun, but I'd wager they would be Ordinatus/Starship-grade weapons, and so they wouldn't fit into the same niche.

I'll just be boring and say that the Imperium has far more powerful technology, but Tau technology is rapidly becoming more sohpisticated.

Oh, and i'm sure I read some bckground somewhere about Tau attempting to copy the processes to create space marines, but all the experiments led to failure, because the test subjects were unable to survive the changes. I suppose that makes mankind seem almost Orky in comparison with their ability to stick implants into themselves and get them to transform into hulking warrior-monks. I cannot reember where I read this fluff though. Does anyone find this familiar? It might have been the Fire Warrior novel, or something completely different.

Xisor
30-06-2005, 23:36
The closest the Imperium has to Railgun tech is Railgun tech. The thing is, the Tau have smaller more portable Lascannons and such that do a fairly similar job...How does the Imperium have railguns I hear cried!? How, their ships use them. The description of Imperial Weapons Batteries are along the lines of

"Massed arrays of superheavy plasma cannons, gravitic accelerators, railguns and macro cannons" So yes, it is starship grade as you presumed. Looking at Railguns the size of lascannons, the Railrifle, I'd still rather have a Lascannon...

I'm afraid the talk of Tau 'Space Marines' is something I've never come across, so if it does exist, I'd be looking to see it...

Xisor

Shinzui
30-06-2005, 23:41
There is no piece of fluff about Tau space marines (I doubt there ever will be as XV8 Battlesuits are prett much equal in power and ability), maybe some over excited player making up stories but nothing that has been published.

I'd argue again the Lascannon being man portable, only Space Marines which are nearly equilavent to a Battlesuit in strength and size can carry it and it's ammo by himself, which is no different to a Railgun it being mounted on an XV88.

Falkus
01-07-2005, 03:12
Looking at Railguns the size of lascannons, the Railrifle, I'd still rather have a Lascannon...

Actually, the laser equivlant of a rail rifle is the lasgun. The cannon sized railgun equivlant is the railgun.

Xisor
01-07-2005, 03:24
No no no no my good man(woman?)! I don't mean 'equivalent', I *do* mean size.

A man portable railgun is a railrifle(more or less), a man portable 'heavy Las' weapon is a Lascannon. A 'lasgun sized' Railrifle is a solenoid :p

Seriously though, 'superheavy las tech' that you *need* a superior 'chassis' to mount, ie proper Railguns, are approaching the size of Laser Destroyers....

Xisor

Khaine's Messenger
01-07-2005, 03:32
The "laser" equivalent of a rail rifle doesn't really exist. The closest thing you can find would be a hot-shot long-las, and even that's debateable because it's not exactly a low-key anti-materiel/heavy infantry weapon like the rail rifle apparently is (you have to wonder what drove them to develop the rail rifle instead of simply adopting chemical propellants or even developing pulse technology to "sniper" levels of precision--assuming that the purpose was to develop a sniper weapon! Perhaps it was indeed intended to be anti-materiel? Or maybe just a thematic concern of the game devs or something to do with game balance, but we can't exactly deal with it in those terms here, can we? Suffice it to say, my worst fear is naturally that it's a token "anti-SM" weapon, but that's just an irrational suspcion). It's a little bit of a stretch to suggest that the rail rifle should be compared on a 1:1 basis with any one Imperial weapon in any case, but that's me....

And the closest thing the Imperium has to railgun tech on the groundpounder level is the Mars-pattern shuriken pistol featured in Draco, which, if it's anything like it's Eldar counterpart, uses a magnetic field to "stabilize" the round. But then that's relatively old background anyways, I suppose....

Xisor
01-07-2005, 03:41
Ah, my mistake this time. I don't mean to compare them 1:1. Bah, I also said Tau instead of Imperium.

However, my point was on the scale of miniaturisation, the Lascannon-Marine comparison to a Broadside isn't entirely fair IMO due to the scales being at least one 'shift' apart IMO. A properly 'miniature' Railtech is effectively the railrifle, a minature Laser Destroyer is a Lascannon....

I don't see why they saw the need to reduce the Railrifle for Firewarrior when an Ion Rifle would have been more appeasing(certainly for the statline they gave it). Still, thats 'rule of cool' for you, bloody computer games, mutters, grumbles....

Xisor

Khaine's Messenger
01-07-2005, 03:59
However, my point was on the scale of miniaturisation, the Lascannon-Marine comparison to a Broadside isn't entirely fair IMO due to the scales being at least one 'shift' apart IMO.

I wasn't replying to you. ;)

Still, lascannon marine-to-broadside is vaguely valid if only because it's a squad-based heavy weapon that serves roughly the same purpose. I suppose I could waffle a bit and say that one step down from a "railgun" is "a railgun that can only adequately fire one variety of munition" (which is what broadside railguns are, remember; whether this is some consideration based on an autoloader or what have you, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure, the broadside railgun is not exactly the same as a hammerhead's railgun...).

Lord Balor
01-07-2005, 06:25
Imperial Tech at its height Far supassed anything the Tau have ever engineered, but that was thousands of years ago. Currently, The Imperium is in a slow steady state of decline both physically and technologically. The Tau however are rapidly expanding and developing at an astonishing rate, making it a matter of time until it exceeds that of mankind. Much of the Imperium's understanding of its own weapons have been lost to time and/or semi-religious perspective of it whilst the Tau have a deep scientific understanding of it.

Here's a quote for all those doubting terraforming capacities of man:

The Planet Mars has changed enormously since man first set foot upon its barren and arid surface. In the early 22nd century it became the first world to be terraformed. It was given an atmosphere and its deserts were turned into fertile soil...

Albiet it was 18,000 years ago (and 2nd edition) it still shows that at some stage, the Imperium understood and was able to easily TerraForm lifeless planets.

To Compare Tau Tech and Imperial Tech is quite difficult as the imperium is by far past its used by date. Were you to measure a 40,000 year old Tau Empire crumbling under the strain of a million wars and the Imperium, then it would be a just comparrison. The Tau are accelerating at such a rapid rate as a result of the mysterious Etherals, lack of *supernatural influences, relative quarentine and contact with other cultrues (IIRC Ion technology was aquired from the squats, not developed by the Tau). The Imperium is decaying from a 10,000 year war of survival where its world are spread thinely around the galaxy and anything but the standardition of the most basic tech is all but impossible. To have a small concealed empire is one thing, but to have a million world engulfed by war affects your ability to advance or use advanced equipment on the battle field.

*In a galaxy where Daemons are real it is no wonder why there is such a superstition of all things including technology. This hampers their ability to develop at the rate of the Tau, who are not bound by such subconscious manifestations.

At their current level in the present day, Imperial tech is still superior to Tau tech, but much rarer (Considerig the size/age between the two empires) and its inner workings are far from understood. Lower tech/mainence equipment is used in war efforts because it is impossible to supply the Imperial War machine with anything else. However Tau technology is rapidly catching up to the Imperial counterparts and is scientifically understood making it far more reliable and efficient than mankinds. There are some areas where Tau Tech seems more advanced (Grav tech, battle suits) whilst the Imperium has an advantage with their presence in the warp (Warp Travel, communication, psykers etc).

To conclude... Everyone < Nids :evilgrin:

Bruen
01-07-2005, 09:56
(IIRC Ion technology was aquired from the squats, not developed by the Tau).

Like the rumour that Tau got their technology from a crashed Imperial spacecraft I have never seen any fluff to back this up and since the squats were banished from 40k before the Tau were even invented I find this unlikely.

If there is any such fluff then I would be very interested to read it :)

Instigation
01-07-2005, 11:02
The tau did get alot of their spacecraft technologies from an "alien" craft found crashed on their moon. Whether it was human or not is speculation but the bottom line is that they did recieve outside assistance. Thats not to say the imperium didnt find some ruined alien technology and backwards engineer it to create their first craft since no one remembers that far back...

Also with regards to what Lord Balor was saying, i have to say that i disagree. While yes alot of imperial technology is ridiculously ancient and as you say "pass the useby date", i still think that the imperium produces alot of new technology and while somethings slowly fade from humanities memory and abilities to replicate, it seems to me that new things take their place. And then ofcourse there is the occasional remnant of STC discovered which boosts imperial tech a great deal - so its not ALL crumbling and misunderstood - just alot of it is.
Also imperial technology is not "hampered" as u say because of superstition. All the fluff seems to show that civilized and fairly rich hive imperial worlds have a very high level of technology, just unlike the tau the imperium has a big class distinction and so it is not available to everybody. And also unlike the tau the imperium cannot equip its massed guard legions as advanced as the small "hit and run" almost raider like armies of the tau can be equiped. I might also point out that the imperiums own specialised armies (ie the Space Marines) are equiped sparing no expense and i believe demonstrate technology that in many ways surpasses that of say the average tau military force.
Also many seem to think that the superstition associated with the admechs administering of imperial tech is a drawback...yes as we know in the 40k universe warp sentiences are born by high concentraion of belief in the material universe. As such i think that the machine god is indeed an existing warp sentience and the practices of the admech strengthen existing imperial tehcnology - not weaken it.

Bruen
01-07-2005, 11:10
The tau did get alot of their spacecraft technologies from an "alien" craft found crashed on their moon. Whether it was human or not is speculation but the bottom line is that they did recieve outside assistance.

That is indeed the rumour, but I was asking for a fluff reference to back that up.

I have never seen anything official that supports it; there is nothing in the Tau codex about it but I don't own every GW publication so it could be in another book.

Ubik_Lives
01-07-2005, 11:50
I think the start of Imperial Armour Vol. 1 is the best in summing up the current level of Imperial technology.

It describes how debased technology has become in 40k, to the Imperium physics has been been replaced with mysticism. Anything that involves the STC designs is a reflection of the will and divinity of the Machine God, and thus the Emperor, and so any changes or innovation would be heresy. Designs are not improved upon or tinkered with, instead using manpower and faith as substitutes.

Sometimes new STC templates are found and the Ad Mech gains some technology, though for every new toy found, there is another that they have lost to the ages, unable to repair or replicate anymore.

The Imperium is no longer advancing technologically (save for the occassional STC find). The layers of religious dogma surrounding technology has even caused some subcults of the Ad Mech to fear new technology and improvement. Compound this with the fact that individual forge worlds guard technological secrets from each other, and the fact that some higher level technology has to be hand crafted, and you can understand why the best of Imperial technology is in the hands of the few and powerful.

Moving on from Imperial Armour and into my own response to the Tau v Imperial debate, I'd say that the the Tau possess a greater amount of what you might term low to middle range technology, while the Imperium has pockets of tech all across the board. Sure they don't have teleporters, advanced bio engineering, and the like, but by the same token, they aren't using lasguns and hauling battleship guns into place by men with chains. The Tau may not have the great highs of Imperial tech, but they have a better average.

Also Tau production levels do exceed the Imperium's. I honestly don't see the Tau having a significantly lower armed forces per capita than the Imperium (they'll have less due to their total population, but that inhibits production as well), and the Tau military is much better equiped than Imperial forces. Sure there are the Space Marines, but there's one Space Marine per planet on the Imperium. I'm pretty sure the Tau are managing more than one crisis suit per planet at the moment. Or more than one Manta Missile Destroyer per planet for that matter. Also when you consider just how quickly the Tau have made their fleets compared to Imperial build times, you can see that the Tau have the production edge here.

As for the Tau discovery of a warp capable ship on one of their moons, that's from the BFG suppliment Armada. Reverse engineering warp drives may seem like 'cheating' but given the current level of Imperial technology is built upon archeological digs for STC templates, I'd rate the two the same. The only real difference is that the Imperium get it easy because they're finding design templates, while the Tau have take their thing apart without breaking it and work out it's functions.

Bruen
01-07-2005, 12:12
Ahh OK, I don't have any of the BFG books.

Psiweapon
02-07-2005, 15:31
The Imperium of course has heights of thecnology unparalelled by the Tau, but the grasp of theory and production the Tau have is far superior than that of the imperium. About jewel sized things, the hard-wired support systems are either wetware (socket-in-head) or jewel-like. And about the rosarius Ņor was it the Crux Terminatus? Sorry, (I'm not very reliable abut imperial fluff) wasn't made of a bit of the Empie's armour? if it is, maybe it's some sort of psychic force or whatever. About Terminator armor, it's seems like a hellishly complex piece of equipment. But it's very rare, and quite difficult to repair. Battlesuits have different specs but I'd think they're equally efficient overall, just the XV are easier to produce, mantain, etc. About plasma (and fusion! nobody thought about fusion weapons!) weapons, just go look in FW for the tau plasma cannon and tau fusion cannon. They're a nightmare. (But yet, they can only be mounted on the Hammerhead, so they're too cumbersome for XV8, but I'm sure XV88s could handle them. Shield generators: a 4+ inv shield generator costs 20p for the tau and any XV8 or XV88 can have it. For SM it costs more and is only one per army and for CG only. Termies have their 5+, though.

Brother Othorio
02-07-2005, 17:46
And about the rosarius Ņor was it the Crux Terminatus? Sorry, (I'm not very reliable abut imperial fluff) wasn't made of a bit of the Empie's armour?

the Rosarius is a forcefield ~ if memory serves it was devised by Goge Vandire so he could impress his faith upon the order that would become the sisters of battle, he told one of them to shoot him with a laspistol, whilst he was unarmoured and clutching his holy symbol in front of him.. the woman fired.. the force field generator kicked in, and the unknowing masses saw the shot 'miraculously' blocked by his 'faith in the Emperor' ~ after Vandires reign was brought to a close the truth of his rosarius was discovered.. and the Ecclesiarchy had copies made..

Imperial legend holds that the Crux Terminatus on a suit of terminator armours shoulderpad contains a fragment of the Emperors armour, thus protecting the wearer from harm.. originally the fluff held that it was only the crux worn by captains that contained it (and it had no in-game effect) thanks to whoever it was naming the terminators 5+ invulnerable save the Crux Terminatus Save alot of people now believe its universal and that the save is a result of the Emperors blessing ~ people who point out that chaos terminators dont have Crux Terminati but do have the 5+ save say its more likely to be either the sheer bulk of the armour, whilst others put it down to a forcefield akin to the one in the Rosarius

TheSonOfAbbadon
02-07-2005, 18:04
Well, chaos terminators do have a crux terminatus save, it states as much in Abbadon's rofile "the crux terminatus save is increased to a 4+" I say the crux terminatus is just a smaller rosarius.

Eldacar
02-07-2005, 18:57
I seem to remember that once, there was something saying "Terminator armour is legendarily thick and contains extensive, powerful armour". I have it in an old Chapter Approved publication, in the article where Terminators recieved their 5+ Invulnerable saves. I always thought they had it because Terminator armour was supposed to be so damn tough, not because of some forcefield or similar.

TheSonOfAbbadon
02-07-2005, 19:08
The 2+ armour save represents the toughness of the armour.

Eldacar
02-07-2005, 19:10
According to the article, IIRC (I'm away from the book at the moment), the 5+ Inv. save also represents the toughness. I'll look it up again in about 7-10 hours, when I get back home.

TheSonOfAbbadon
02-07-2005, 19:18
But an invulnerable save represents a force feild or psychic force protecting the model, not actual armour.

Talkie Toaster
02-07-2005, 19:38
But an invulnerable save represents a force feild or psychic force protecting the model, not actual armour.
Oh no it don't. Supernatural speed (assassins) and bloody-mindedness (feel no pain) both provide invulnerable saves. Conversely, Fire Warriors (if you believe the game) have mini portable shield generators, presumably built into their shoulderpads and covering their firing arc, but they don't get an invulnerable save because the field is low powered.

Sephiroth
02-07-2005, 20:12
Areas where the Tau don't have a look in

- exterminatus/germ warfare

Just thought I'd chip in and say that the Tau actually have their own version of Exterminatus (how comparable to the Imperium version, I'm unsure).

Check out Commander Farsight's background:


In time, O'Shovah's forces pushed back into several Ork held systems in the Damocles Gulf and inflicted exterminatus upon their worlds, effectively terminating the immediate threat.

Eldacar
03-07-2005, 02:41
But an invulnerable save represents a force feild or psychic force protecting the model, not actual armour.
Okay, I found the reference.

I quote from Chapter Approved, the article entitled "Crux Terminatus". It deals with the overwhelming amounts of plasma weaponry that was being directed at the Terminators and the subsequent solution to that problem. It was written by Andy Chambers. Now, I believe that this was the first Chapter Approved book that they published, but I'm not 100% sure on that. If it helps, they also had within this publication temporary army lists for the Sisters of Battle, the IG Armoured Company and the Necrons. The "Crux Terminatus" article is on page 55.

The quote is here:

"Terminator armour is legendarily thick and heavily reinforced with armaplas and adamantium. Terminators are capable of surviving just about any hit, even ones from plasma or power weapons."

It then went on to say that the above quote was the reason for Terminator granting a 5+ Invulnerable save to the model in addition to the 2+ Armour Save.

Psiweapon
03-07-2005, 11:22
"Terminator armour is legendarily thick and heavily reinforced with armaplas and adamantium. Terminators are capable of surviving just about any hit, even ones from plasma or power weapons."

It then went on to say that the above quote was the reason for Terminator granting a 5+ Invulnerable save to the model in addition to the 2+ Armour Save.

So that's it :p

Ubik_Lives
03-07-2005, 17:52
Yeah. When people started crunching numbers about just how many shards of the Emperor's armour needed to be floating around, you'd wind up with a little 2g bit of armour before even considering losses. Not exactly enough to be giving an invunerable save.

Also Chaos needed to get the save without the crux terminatus...

Lord_krok
21-07-2005, 16:41
There seems to be a general assumption that Tau tech is superior to Imperial tech, and to me this seems wrong. Granted the Tau are actually progressing with their tech at a faster rate than the imperium (which seems to get worse in some areas) but nonetheless I find it hard to credit the Tau with technology which is better than its imperial equivalent. To begin with, I'm going to go for the common things which the Tau are assumed to have mastered, and please feel free to argue/discuss, especially other examples of imperial/tau technological differences.

Plasma weaponry

- this is an area which the Tau excel, and at first glance they seem to have a far better grasp of such equipment than the Imperium. There are two obvious counters to this. The first is that Imperial plasma technology is more powerful - this implies that the Imperium could produce weaponry with the same affects 9and less lethal side affects) as the Tau, but choose not to. Pure speculation, but I expect this is because the Imperium sees plasma as an anti-heavy infantry weaponry and 'juice it up' to ensure its potency against all forms of armour - the odd accidental deaths as a result mean nothing to the Imperium, who can call upon legions of soldiers to replace those occassional casulaties.

The Imperium also has examples of heavy plasma weaponry, which as far as I know the Tau don't have. I'm not only talking about standard plasma cannon, but also those mounted on battletanks and even on starships. The Imperium is perfectly capable of producing plasma weaponry large enough to mount on a titan, something the Tau cannot (to my knowledge) achieve. The Imperium also uses plasma as an energy source, and can create plasma grenades and other applications of plasma technology

Although plasma weaponry seems to be rarer in the Imperium, this to me suggests more to do with cost than anything else. The Imperium could probably equip every guardsman with a plasma rifle, carapace armour and assorted hi-tech kit, but the fact is they have billions upon billions of guardsmen and they don't need to give them all plasma weaponry, not when it is cheap and efficient to give them easily produced las weapons and back them up with heavier equipment to deal with bigger threats. The Space Marines have an arguably better weapon in the bolter, with its specialisation for assault and close range combat, and they too don't all need to lug around plasma we\ponry.

Battlesuits

- another area in which the Imperium seems to have no counters. The two biggest detractors are first that the Imperium has perfected jump pack technology in assault marines (although not on the same scale) and also in grav chutes and other 'deep strike' equipment.

Terminator armour is arguably much better than battlesuits in terms oif personal protection, with the added bonuses of being smaller (and therefore much better for ship-to-ship and tunnel fighting), useful in assault, and being able to make use of teleportation technology to appear in the heart of the enemy defences unexpectedly.

The Imperium also makes use of sentinels and dreadnoughts which can counter the tau walkers well, and although not created for the same types of combat are good examples of perfected walker technology.

Grav tanks

- personally I don't think the tau actually have true grav tanks, but rather use V/STOL technology on a limited scale. Nonetheless, the Imperium can produce the faster and more manouverable landspeeder, and although they do not have heavier examples of this form of technology, its questionable as to whether they need or want it, given its expense, need for high maintenance and the fact that it is outclassed both by fliers ad conventional battletanks (except in terms of speed as far as tanks are concerned). All Imperial cehicles have the immense advantages of durability, rugability and the ability to make use of local materials for fuel - which means that even when tau tech may seem better, in a protracted campaign the imperial tech is more practical and requires less technical support and dedicated facilities.

Space ship technology

- the Tau haven't really made many in roads here, and in some areas (notably warp) they are very much beginners. Nonetheless, the Imperium is capable of producing ships that are faster (SM ships) more powerful (the largest Imperial battleships) and has perfected its fleet as a single entity. Whether the Tau manage to catch up in this area remains to be seen, but the very best Imperial ship designs incorporate weapon systems such as nova cannon and lance turrets which have incredible range and killing power which the Tau can't compete with. Even on the subject of ordnance, the Imperium can produce torpedoes making use of such tech as vortex warheads and psychically guided weaponry.

Areas where the Tau don't have a look in

- personal power fields
- teleportation
- bioengneering
- terra forming
- vortex weaponry
- laser weaponry
- titans & mind impulse tech
- servitors (arguably a form of bio engineering, but suitably different)
- exterminatus/germ warfare
- navigation/warp travel
- astropathic communication
- other psychic uses (astronomicon, battlefield psychers, emperor's tarot)


If anybody can add/refute anything, please do. i do accept that the Tau are advancing fast, but I also thinkt hey have a long way to go before they surpass the imperium in technology. Opinions?

what are you taking about? the Tau have [to my knowage]: powerfields (they just aren't used in 40k); teleportation; the equivelint of laser tec - the pulse rifle; MIU's - how do you think gun and sheild drones are controled?; the equivelient of severtors - drones - they can be made to do almost anything; Exterminues.

Also, the fact that they don't have warp travel/astropathic communication and anything linked to that is the fact that the Tau aren't psychic. Their brains aren't built like human brains, and the like. Anyway... the Tau have a much saffer way of travel, they skim the warp, there fore they don't run into warp beasts.

Oh and Tau torpedos, I can arguge that they are very much better then the imperium. They contain drone chips, there fore they can redirect for changes in the ships course. believe me, I've played with a Tau fleet against the eldar. Tau torpedos can actully chase Eldar ship :p of course they don't have the feul, and that is the main problem. Also, while i'm on the subject, the Tau have much better range with their weapon batteries and it can be argued, better targeting systems.

Remember, the Tau don't have unlimited resourses and man power to make the specilist tech that the imperium has.

LostTemplar
21-07-2005, 22:41
Actually...


Tee hee.

Go see Battlefleet Gothic. And Inquisitor. You'll soon realise that the Imperium... Has them too. And better.

Tau are just in possession of all their techonlogy, while the Imperium isn't.

Robot 2000
05-09-2005, 12:19
The Tau are a civilisation on the way up (although how likely they are to quite squished pretty soon is a matter for debate ;) ) while the Imperium is one on the way down. While the Imperium has achieved some massive heights of technology, like the creation of Space Marines, anti-aging techniques, etc etc, nowadays these only remain as isolated, rare, poorly understood examples. The Tau can't match these yet, but what they do have, they understand completely. That's the main difference.

Wiseman
05-09-2005, 13:05
i have to agree with the terminators being used for ship to ship boarding actions, id say if anything they are closest to the broadsides. Technologywise I'd have to say that the Tau have nothing on the Imperium when it comes to vehicles, sure the Tau vehicles seem to hover(though i agree on it being V/STOL) Imperial tanks are easily mass produced and of the larger ones, the machine spirit gives a huge boost to them, as well as the fact that they are more armoured and armed.

The two different races though are seemed towards different combat styles, whereas the Tau need a quick victory the Imperium will always win in a war of attrition

Robot 2000
05-09-2005, 13:56
TERMINATOR ARMOUR IS NOT DESIGNED FOR THE SAME THING AS BATTLESUITS!

It's really futile to compare them! Terminator armour is designed for medium to close range engagements where they will be putting out and receiving a LOT of fire and most likely having to fend off opponents in hand to hand as well. The Battlesuits are ONLY effective at range and are used for making hit and run attacks rather than stomping around shooting and pulping anything that gets in their way. It's a totally invalid comparison, so stop making it please!

Sephiroth
05-09-2005, 14:53
I don't know, I've seen them used aggressively, and quite well at that!

Considering they also have access to the flamer, and fusion blasters (range 12") I'd say their more tactically versatile.

That said, it is allot of fun darting through cover, blowing stuff up and it canít shoot back. :D

Anatole Marius
16-04-2006, 15:10
Ultimately these comparisions are irealivent as but races have differing outlooks the Tau are not willing to go out into a drawn out conflict if possible to avoid as they a race of collectivists. Also the Tau have not felt the full brunt of the horrors out there. The imperium is suffering not be cause of any technology faults but because it is besieged on all fronts. The imperium pulled out of their attack upon the Tau because of the Tyranids. The Imperium is dying slowly but it will fight to the last and is willing to sacrifice every man, woman and child if it has too. Worlds are exterminated in seconds and that is the imperiums way. The Tau are protectionist, unwilling to sacrifice any individuals if possible and ultimately will suffer if the imperium drops. Ironically they are not prepared for the horrors they will face. The Eldar are greatly better at weapons tech than the Tau and yet they lost heavily to the Tyranids and they were nearly wiped out by Slaanesh. If the Tau develop psychicly they are ill prepared.

Ultimately, Neither empire is better at technology it is just outlook that seperates them. Religious Totalitarian doctrain unable to understand the value of life or Collectivist caste system unable to understand true sacrifice.

cav da man
16-04-2006, 21:10
so for us ****** out there the simple version:
imperium : religious nuts who put technology down to faith and magic half the time, mess of planets decaying nicely into something resembling your grandma's cooking
tau: neat little blue dudes who know what they're talking about, understand and can improve. Currently on the up, unsure on how long that will last, may in the close or distant future go squishy and turn into something resembling your.........you know the rest.
And also basicly this is an unfair comparison because you cannot compare two things designed for different purposes by different races in totally different situations facing different threats.
Sound good to you?

unforgiven555
17-04-2006, 00:38
If the Tau develop psychicly they are ill prepared.

They won't/can't develop psykicly. They were designed not too.

As for tau tech:
- It is currently almost at par and in some areas above imperial tech. Specialized imperial technology far surpasses it, but for the "average" peice of technological equipment the tau have a higher rate.

- Tau will continue to develop technology, but a main source of advancement will result from the integration of other alien cultures and technology. The imperium refuses to use any alien artifacts being "heretical". The tau accept them and use them as need be. Depending on who they come in contact with, it is forseeable they could quickly pass the imperium in many areas. Or, they may take time.

- Regarding tyranids: Tau are only facing splinter fleets; not an entire hive fleet (and they won't ever, GW won't kill one of their most popular races and their empire could obviously not handle it). The demiurg would convince the eldar to help them or something (the eldar seem to have some affection for their empire).

* The main difference between the tau and imperium is that the tau are advancing rapidly. They are also accepting of other cultures, and as such, much of their advancement come sfrom this area.

El_Machinae
17-04-2006, 01:25
There does seem to be an upper limit on how far a species can advance, though, since the Necrons seem to be there already.

Psiweapon
17-04-2006, 01:25
As for whether the Tau have anti-grav, I'm assuming from the models that their tanks are not anti-grav, as they seem to have V/STOl type engines. Drones may have anti grav but it seems to be on quite a limited plane (a few feet above the ground) and their battlesuits use jump packs.


Their tank, drones, and suits USE antigrav. Their jumppacks and other air manoeuvering devices use a combination of jets and antigrav capabilities. That's stated in the fluff.

Assume what you will, I'll assume that you're using double standards. Where you see the Imperium as "not wanting to" do something, you see the Empire as "not being able to".

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-04-2006, 03:18
There does seem to be an upper limit on how far a species can advance, though, since the Necrons seem to be there already.

They've only just got out of stasis, they are the representation of what their technology was like billions of years ago, if they start advancing their tech again, no doubt they'll know where to start, and what to do.

Though there is a limit, I expect the limit is far beyond any of the current 40k tech.

El_Machinae
17-04-2006, 07:09
I'd think that they wouldn't have gone into stasis, if they could have continued progressing their tech, no?

Zzarchov
17-04-2006, 07:23
Its stated by GW that the Tau have inferior tech to the Imperium.

A railgun may seem awesome..but look at its size compared to the equivalent Imperial Tech..Laser Destroyers, which has a blast template.

Imperial devices are just better than their tau counterpart. Even plasma..play more detailed 40k games..like inquisitor, necromunda or 2nd edition.. Imperial Plasma doesn't overheat unless you switch it to "High power" AND don't give it a round a cool down.

Whats different is distribution and manufacture. Tau have modern concepts of technology usage and creation, The imperium has a medieval mindset to it (These people get these weapons even though better ones are available, because thats their social status and thats what they traditionally get..even if it costs us the battle)

The Orange
17-04-2006, 08:01
Though there is a limit, I expect the limit is far beyond any of the current 40k tech.
Weahter they have reached their limit is debatable, but since they are now mostly mindless slaves to the C'Tan, I doubt thier Tech will ever get better (but I'm sure they have a treasure trove still burried).


(These people get these weapons even though better ones are available, because thats their social status and thats what they traditionally get..even if it costs us the battle)
I don't think so. I think its more to do with economics then with class. The Imperium has to outfit Billions of troops, and the current weapons used by the IG is what they can easily produce in great quantities, and what is reliable. Despite their crude nature, the IG is still a formidable force. If it could I'm sure the Imperium would out fit everyone with bolters, and Land Raiders, but these items take more time & respurces, as is, the Imperium is producing as much as it can, and can't slow down to give everyone permium equipment, which would also require more maintenece.

Zurai
17-04-2006, 08:53
A railgun may seem awesome..but look at its size compared to the equivalent Imperial Tech..Laser Destroyers, which has a blast template.

Railguns are far, far superior to Laser Destroyers. They have higher strength, better AP (auto penetrate), and have a larger blast template with good enough stats to cover anti-infantry as well. Against AV14, a Railgun that hits has a 50% chance to penetrate, while a Laser Destroyer only has a 17% chance. The Railgun will destroy an AV14 target on 25% of all hits, while a Laser Destroyer will only destroy the same target 8% of the time. That's four times the stopping power, at the same range, with additional versatility in the form of the strength 6 large blast template.

It's not like they're only better against AV14, either. Rails are signifigantly more lethal against ANY armor value. Even against AV10; they automatically penetrate on ANY hit and 50% of those will destroy the target, while the LD still can glance on a 1.

On top of all that, Railguns are one of the few things in the game that can instant kill Demon Princes and other T5 models. Laser Destroyers can't touch that.


Even fluffwise, Railguns win, primarily because Laser Destroyers are incredibly rare. Railguns are a dime a dozen. Quantity has its own quality.

Anatole Marius
18-04-2006, 21:16
umm do you realise a Laser destroyer isn't a lascannon or have the laser destroyer rules changed since my day that they are now rubbish?

Gotchaye
19-04-2006, 00:15
Laser Destroyers, to my knowledge, offer little more than does the current Prism Cannon. However, it should be noted that the Vanquisher Battle Cannon puts the Railgun to shame.

GodofWarTx
21-04-2006, 01:19
Tau technology is about the same as imperial technology levels before humanity came into contact with the warp. Humans had drones and AI, and they were completely corrupted, which is why they have servitors : They are machines with souls. My theory is with more and more contact with the forces of chaos and the warp, the more likely it is for Tau's technology to become corrupted on a cataclysmic scale.

unforgiven555
21-04-2006, 03:14
My theory is with more and more contact with the forces of chaos and the warp, the more likely it is for Tau's technology to become corrupted on a cataclysmic scale.

Hmm, I figured the corruption came from the technology given to the Mars adepts by the C'Tan. Machines can be corrupted, but wouldn't it be less likely, as they don't have a soul? Also; the drones that tau use are not very intelligent on their own, and need to be networked to perform basic functions. I doubt we'll see the machines rebelling against the tau on a large scale/at all (unless of course they decide to do something stupid like incorporate technology from a C'Tan).

TheSonOfAbbadon
21-04-2006, 05:05
Tau technology is about the same as imperial technology levels before humanity came into contact with the warp.

It's some way behind it, pre-imperial Iron Men were able to think exactly like a human and had the intellectual capacity of a human. Tau drones just fly and shoot.


Humans had drones and AI, and they were completely corrupted, which is why they have servitors : They are machines with souls.

Wrong, Servitors are part man, part machine, and they probably have less soul than a normal human as they just obey certain commands and have no emotions.


My theory is with more and more contact with the forces of chaos and the warp, the more likely it is for Tau's technology to become corrupted on a cataclysmic scale.

That theory would be reasonable if it weren't for the fact that the Tau are immune to possession and warp corruption [mostly] as they have almost no soul. Although I suppose the Tau could be corrupted by the warp, but it would take far, far longer than it would with humanity.

cav da man
21-04-2006, 18:36
they have souls and they are living things with emotions (well as far as fiction goes), the reason they arn't corrupted yet is because they have nothing in the way of phycic ability (grrr stupid spelling) and because their economy and lives are very strictly structured so that none of them really get a chance to have doubts and dream up nasty things to do to people involving chains and whips and who knows what else........

Mike The Zealous
09-01-2008, 00:32
You do have a good point on many of those, but they are a few things that are not completely right. For instance, the tau dont like putting plasma guns on their ships because i think they are more interested in their railguns as main guns, which as far as i know, are just as strong, if not stronger, than most plasma guns, or at least equivalent to it. Also the psychic parts, those are true, but the tau have adapted around most of their psychic problems. Overall, pretty good list. Now upon looking at the list again, you make very good points, especially in the imperials favor. Upon seeing all of them, i do believe that the tau do have superior widespread technology for their infantry and elites, but there is the problem with their military is that they dont have nearly enough numbers of their fire warriors as the IG do, and the FW dont have the skills, personal wargear, or armor that is normal for space marines. So basically, the Tau Fire Caste fill a area between IG and Space Marines in functionality and survivability. Or so i think

Chaplain of Chaos
09-01-2008, 00:48
The key is that beyond simple machines chimeras, las weaponry, plasma, the truly advanced technology humans have over the Tau is completely beyond human understanding. When the truly ancient machines break, like the baneblade etc a tech priest doesn't actually understand how the machine runs. I am assuming that the equipment from the Dark Age of Technology is much more advanced than any science we've seen except for the tech of the Eldar and Necrons.

They pray to the machine-spirit they tighten some bolts in a precisely documented ritual, smear some oil on it and then hope to the Omnissiah that they appeased the internal spirit of the machine.

Imperial knowledge does not advance, it stagnates. Beyond the occasional discovery of an STC the strict enforcement against techno-heresy prevents humans from advancing.

While the Tau are not as advanced in all areas (as only makes sense considering their civilization is infinitely younger than Human civilization) they have a grasp of their technology. The Earth Caste understands how it all works they can fix it and build more and innovate with old ideas.

Tau may not be as advanced right atm, but they will be soon.

Zelnik
09-01-2008, 01:53
Hey folks

Comparing imperial tech to tau tech in many ways is like comparing apples to oranges. Imperial and Tau tech went down two very different paths at some descernable point in their history, humans adopting laser based weapons while Tau using magnetic accelerators. While both sides dabbled in the other (humans using them for bombardment cannons and plasma weapons)
The tau abandoned laser technology for plasma and magnetic accelerator rounds.

Lets do some comparisons.
Lascannon vs rail gun. The las cannon requires a two man team to fire a high powered laser beam at a foe, this typically requires a large battery pack to be toted along. It has good range, and good punch power.
The rail gun requires a heavy mounting, like the lascannon, but instead of using two troops to carry it around, they use advanced crisis technology for added mobility. The power and range of the rail gun are far in excess of the lascannon, and can be fired on the move. Also it can be equipped with a submunition if tank equipped.
Imperium:0 tau:1

Tau Plasma vs Imperial Plasma.
Imperial plasma is powerful, potent, and long range. It literally fires a ball of plasma (or a tiny sun), at the enemy, however due to the lack of understanding, the weapon tends to overheat and kill its user. In larger weapons it creates a large plasma explosion, and if made large enough can be equipped most effectively to titan or baneblade level equipment.

Tau plasma is used almost exclusively as antipersonelle weapons on battlesuits. giving up strength for a safer weapon, it projects the plasma in a beam at its foe. the tau have ceased large scale plasma due to the effectiveness of larger ion cannons and rail guns. in the early days of the tau empire, there were tank mounted plasma weapons used to strip off void shields from titans, but those have fallen into disuse.
Imperials 1, tau 1.

tau Pulse weaponry vs Imperial lasguns, bolters and heavy bolters.
Imperial infantry weapons are primitive to say the least, but economically sound. the bolter, used almost exclusively by the space marines, is the height of standard issue weaponry in the imperium. the heavy bolter is basically a normal bolter supersized.

Tau pulse weaponry utilizes plasma and magnetic accelerators to provide an, on the whole, more powerful weapon. The pulse rifle out-ranges the bolter, and the burst cannon is light enough to fit on tau stealth suits, making it an effective assault weapon. The carbine fires pulse rounds at a fast enough rate to cause pinning. the only thing the imps beat is the burst cannon due to the better AP value and longer range.

Imperial:1 Tau:2

Tau Missiles vs Imp rockets

Imperial rockets are clearly stronger and have longer range then tau missiles, in order to achieve equal strength, tau weapons need to be on the scale of hunter killer missiles, but the lighter missiles have a faster rate of fire, and marker guidance.
Tie.

Battlesuit Technology.
Imperial battlesuits require extensive genetic and physical modification in order to use, otherwise the massive stresses on the body would liquidfy a normal human. the tau are capable of producing battlesuits that require no genetic or physical changes, and can carry more powerful weapon systems in comparison to the imperials. Compare a stealth suit to a space marine suit. the only difference is the lack of the black carapice, which is a physical grafting. Also, jet packs on ALL their suits, and stealth generators far superior to anything the imperium has.
Tau 3 Imps 1

Spacefaring technology.
I will go ahead and say this, read the fluff on imperial ships, read the fluff on tau ships. Read the CPF fluff. Imperial ships are ancient behemoths with most of their advanced technology stripped out for "replacable" work gangs. Every time you destroy an imperial ship, you kill 5000 humans, or more. if you destroy a tau ship, you destroy a heavily automated drone crew, maybe some stragglers that couldn't get to the escape pods, so maybe 50-100 crew.
On a note of speed. sure you go fast, but some of your crew may go insane and have demons explode from their heads. Go slow, and safe, and it won't happen.
Tau win hands down.

Teleport technology:
All teleport technology goes through the warp. All of it. the tau cannot enter the warp. nuff said, its not that they are primitive, they just don't care enough to try. This applies firmly to all psyker technologies.

Chaplain of Chaos
09-01-2008, 02:33
That was a rather biased argument I would say, Apples to Oranges you say eh... It didn't include a large amount of Imperial Tech which the Tau just don't have. I would call a Titan a battlesuit... just of hugely massive proportions. I would say that grasp of warp technology easily gives the Imperials a point, it's somethign that they have developed and the Tau haven't.

The Tau have a more advanced and enlightened mindset towards technology in the current age certaintly.

I would also say that the Humans of the Dark Age of Technology where practically techno-wizards compared to the Tau.

Wikhed
09-01-2008, 02:46
I'm sure it's been said already but the Imperials are declining in tech but Tau are acquiring a better understanding. Tau think of tech as a purely mechanical or electrical device and not an entity like Ad Mech does. No prayer rituals or holy salves to appease the Machine Spirit but pure diagnostics and repair of malfunctioning equipment.

qsd
09-01-2008, 03:54
The key is that beyond simple machines chimeras, las weaponry, plasma, the truly advanced technology humans have over the Tau is completely beyond human understanding. When the truly ancient machines break, like the baneblade etc a tech priest doesn't actually understand how the machine runs.

They have some understanding of baneblades. Otherwise explain how they developed stormblades and such when there really is only the STC for Baneblades and Stormswords.



I am assuming that the equipment from the Dark Age of Technology is much more advanced than any science we've seen except for the tech of the Eldar and Necrons.

Things like Rhinos, power swords, etc are Dark Age gear.
Actually, some of the really advanced stuff is on par with Eldar and Necron, or at least I would say so. Take for example, the 2nd Grey Knights novel. There was an AI-STC (what I mean is that the AI was the STC) that had a physical form made of pure information. On top of that, it could manipulate objects without touching them as well as physically hurt people by shooting information at them. Its abilities were strong enough that it was able to beat up GKs just by toying around with them.
Another, would be the Castigator Titan (one of the things that could be made with that STC), that while it couldn't really piece itself back together like Necrons do, its body could self-repair. Plus some of the solid parts could flex around as if they were more like muscle than metal, not something you see on Necrons - they have mechanical style joints



They pray to the machine-spirit they tighten some bolts in a precisely documented ritual, smear some oil on it and then hope to the Omnissiah that they appeased the internal spirit of the machine.

Actually what the tech-priests do are essentially normal maintainance routines, albeit heavily ornamented with long, unneccessary rituals such as praying and incense burning.



Imperial knowledge does not advance, it stagnates. Beyond the occasional discovery of an STC the strict enforcement against techno-heresy prevents humans from advancing.

That's just the majority of the time.
If it was always that way, Land Raider Crusaders, some Baneblade variants, C'tan phase swords, etc would not exist.
Some do stray from the AdMech's laws and innovate or use xeno tech. Not all heretics are necessarily traitors.

qsd
09-01-2008, 04:26
sorry to double post but



Lets do some comparisons.
Lascannon vs rail gun. The las cannon requires a two man team to fire a high powered laser beam at a foe, this typically requires a large battery pack to be toted along. It has good range, and good punch power.
The rail gun requires a heavy mounting, like the lascannon, but instead of using two troops to carry it around, they use advanced crisis technology for added mobility. The power and range of the rail gun are far in excess of the lascannon, and can be fired on the move. Also it can be equipped with a submunition if tank equipped.
Imperium:0 tau:1

Space Marines carry lascannons by themselves. Also presumably if a jump-pack equipped marine can wield a giant gauntlet as large, if not larger than his body, he can probably wield a lascannon. Theres your basic equiv of a suit.
In a way the lascannon has an advantage because two (or even one depending how you're carrying it) guardsmen can lug it around. Railguns are restricted to suits and vehicles. Yes, theres rifles but those are significantly weaker than the gun.



Tau Plasma vs Imperial Plasma.
Imperial plasma is powerful, potent, and long range. It literally fires a ball of plasma (or a tiny sun), at the enemy, however due to the lack of understanding, the weapon tends to overheat and kill its user. In larger weapons it creates a large plasma explosion, and if made large enough can be equipped most effectively to titan or baneblade level equipment.

Its not the lack of understanding, its their lack of decent cooling systems.
For people who said bigger plasma tech is more reliable, no it is not. Russ executioners are infamous for being very hot, and sometimes end up like ovens. The reason titan crews aren't really affected is because the entire gun is mounted outside of the vehicle's main body.



tau Pulse weaponry vs Imperial lasguns, bolters and heavy bolters.
Imperial infantry weapons are primitive to say the least, but economically sound. the bolter, used almost exclusively by the space marines, is the height of standard issue weaponry in the imperium. the heavy bolter is basically a normal bolter supersized.

You forgot Sisters of Battle who are a lot more numerous than Space Marines.




Tau Missiles vs Imp rockets

Imperial rockets are clearly stronger and have longer range then tau missiles, in order to achieve equal strength, tau weapons need to be on the scale of hunter killer missiles, but the lighter missiles have a faster rate of fire, and marker guidance.
Tie.

Imperials have an arsenal of rockets compared to the Tau's relatively few.
To name some
-frag
-krak
-deathwind
-deathstrike
-vengeance
-castellan
-those ones on the Manticore
-etc.
Tau have what?; seeker missiles and battlesuit rockets?



Battlesuit Technology.
Imperial battlesuits require extensive genetic and physical modification in order to use, otherwise the massive stresses on the body would liquidfy a normal human. the tau are capable of producing battlesuits that require no genetic or physical changes, and can carry more powerful weapon systems in comparison to the imperials. Compare a stealth suit to a space marine suit. the only difference is the lack of the black carapice, which is a physical grafting. Also, jet packs on ALL their suits, and stealth generators far superior to anything the imperium has.
Tau 3 Imps 1

Power armor is not a battlesuit. Its a suit of armor.
Battlesuits are miniature versions of mechs.

Also you don't need modification to use imperial armor. Inquisitors, Sisters of Battle, some ecclesiarchy priests, etc all have access to power armor and such, but they require no modifications.



Spacefaring technology.
I will go ahead and say this, read the fluff on imperial ships, read the fluff on tau ships. Read the CPF fluff. Imperial ships are ancient behemoths with most of their advanced technology stripped out for "replacable" work gangs. Every time you destroy an imperial ship, you kill 5000 humans, or more. if you destroy a tau ship, you destroy a heavily automated drone crew, maybe some stragglers that couldn't get to the escape pods, so maybe 50-100 crew.
On a note of speed. sure you go fast, but some of your crew may go insane and have demons explode from their heads. Go slow, and safe, and it won't happen.

Its more than 5000 people. Some dropships are capable of carrying more people. Think 10-30k at minimum.
Tau ships also have more than 50-100 otherwise eldar and dark eldar could slaughter them by boarding their ships.



Tau win hands down.

They still have some ways to go.



Teleport technology:
All teleport technology goes through the warp. All of it. the tau cannot enter the warp. nuff said, its not that they are primitive, they just don't care enough to try. This applies firmly to all psyker technologies.
Necrons and C'tan hate the warp and do not use it. Tell me how Necrons 'phase out'. It can't be a wormhole because otherwise other things besides the Necron would be pulled into their bases when activated. Same for monoliths.

Hellebore
09-01-2008, 04:27
Imperial technology is just more varied than tau tech.

The tau are of an upgrade mindset - when something better comes along they just stop producing the previous model and use the next one.

The Imperium has a much broader range of technology that is all being produced.

The worst imperial tech is worse than tau tech, but the BEST imperial tech is better than tau tech.

It's just that both get produced along side each other.

Hellebore

Mike The Zealous
09-01-2008, 04:53
True, and it did say in the GW land raider history that the Imperium had a whole system or two devoted to the making of Land Raiders, which meant that the IG could use em too. Its just that the Emperor ordered that all the SM get the Land Raiders during the Heresy, and the system(s) that built only land raiders were toasted by Chaos. Since the imps dont want to contradict a order by the Emperor, they still have it to where only SM can get Land Raiders

kikkoman
09-01-2008, 06:11
If anybody can add/refute anything, please do. i do accept that the Tau are advancing fast, but I also thinkt hey have a long way to go before they surpass the imperium in technology. Opinions?

The Tau equip their troops with the best they've got. The Imperium equips their troops with what is affordable


But the very very very cream of the crop of the Imperium, it's ahead of Tau tech.
The Inquisition, Grey Knights, and the Imperial Assassins. Exitus weapons outperform pulse

if we just go by 40k stats... Burst cannons... they're worse than Big Shootas, so orks got da best technology :D


Or even the infamous railgun. It's gigantic, only portable on a tank or suit dedicated to its use. When Imperial weapons get that gigantic, they're made for knocking holes in titans.

and it used to be that Spyrer Hunter Suits were antique advanced human tech, but it was ret-conned into Tau :/, so I can't say that anymore.

Brother Siccarius
09-01-2008, 06:53
Everything that you mention are things that the Imperium can do very well, but has no understanding of. It's important to understand that much about the Imperial Tech.



Plasma weaponry

The Imperium can make these, but do not understand the workings of them. Their plasma weaponry has a chance of killing it's user when it vents the superheated air of an overheated reactor. You could stop that from happening by shaping the vents differently or pointing them away from the user, but they don't, because they don't understand the workings of it, and don't improve upon their 'sacred' technology.


Battlesuits

The Imperium has battlesuit-like technology but has little comprehension of it. In many cases they can make it and in some cases improve upon it (since power armor and Terminator armor weren't part of the lost secrets of technology), but it's so expensive to build that only the most elite and wealthy can even afford to get a suit made for them (twelve planetary governors couldn't scrape together enough to buy a single suit).


Grav tanks
Space ship technology

Again, lost technology, and the Imperium has no comprehension of it's full use or purpose.


Areas where the Tau don't have a look in
- personal power fields
Tau have these in spare, but aren't going to give it to just anyone. Where'd you think shield drones and battlesuit fields came from?


- teleportation
To be fair, the Imperium doesn't have this either. Their's is only shifting dimensions and taking a short leap through the aether to possibly end where they need to be.


- bioengneering
What'd you think the caste system was all about?


- terra forming

Have it

- vortex weaponry

That's warp sorcery, and the Tau don't use it, but have a much better weaponry to use. Dozens of mid-high yield warheads with incredible accuracy (probably get off 5 headshots and 7 groin shots on a ratling).


- laser weaponry

Have it


- titans & mind impulse tech

Don't have titans (inefficient in combat, inefficient out of combat), do have mind-impulse, which is what drone controllers and battlesuits work on.


- servitors (arguably a form of bio engineering, but suitably different)

Ghastly and barbaric use of technology and life itself. But they have enough bionic technology to do it and make it look pretty as well. 'Hardwired' stuff is literally that.


- exterminatus/germ warfare
They want the population alive, a dead planet is of no use to the Greater Good. Besides, if they had it, you wouldn't know it was them that used it (they aren't as open about atrocities as the Imperium).


- navigation/warp travel
- astropathic communication
- other psychic uses (astronomicon, battlefield psychers, emperor's tarot)

Tau don't have psykers among them, but they do ally with them. Besides, they have yet to really need it. Slow expansion is working fine enough for them.[/QUOTE]

Drogmir
09-01-2008, 07:13
I say this

If the Tau were so advanced the would have figured out a way to compensate tech wise for their **** poor WS instead of having to deal with alien mercs (Kroot)

that's all I have to say.

It's an almost but no quite in some areas, **** poor in others, and fantastically beyond.

Zelnik
09-01-2008, 10:11
In response to qsd...


i think you need to re-read some of your background material.

Space marines do NOT carry las cannons single handedly, if that were the case they would also tote along a bolter, or perhaps a plasma pistol with it. they require wearing suits of powered armor to carry such large equipment, just like the Tau, and they lack the upgraded systems that give them the capacity to move and shoot. looks like the mighty space marines forgot what gyro stabilization was.

Plasma technology is mystified, and is only 'worshipped' effectively at one single forgeworld with any sort of effectiveness. Any weapon that can kill its user due to overheating is an example of dangerous and misunderstood technology. In the executioner, they can complain it gets

hot, but it hasn't melted down any leman russ' that i know of.

my point remains even with the sisters added :P

Tau technology probably does not lack many equivelants (I mean seriously, if you have missile tech, you have fragmentation tech), they instead use weaker, but drone aided missiles for different purposes on the battlefield. And the first person who tells me a seeker is worse then a HK missile needs to reboot their brain.

Your statement on space marine power armor is, i am afraid, poorly stated. Powered armor and battlesuits are the same thing with different names. If your statement were true, then space marines would be MUCH easier to kill, and totally incapable of moving in their heavy suits of armor. I will say it again, compare a stealth suit to a space marine power armor, that is enough evidence for anyone. It says specifically in the codex space marines that their armor is POWERED, in IA, it describes the systems in detail.

Um, they DO get boned in boarding actions. Big 'ol rule in the tau fleet. "Tau vessels count as half value for boarding actions". thats why they have the most advanced missile tech in BFG, with variable speed and a 45 degree turn.. i play the tau in BFG buddy.

Since when are we talking about necrons here? the tau can't use the warp because they lack any understanding of it without psykers. they won't use it because its dangerous, as they found out at medusa 5.

now other responses..

The tau don't construct titans because they are not efficient in combat. The tau doctrine of war demands high mobility and flexibility. A titan is a massive walking target. Because of this fact they can easily deal with titan legions with advanced tactics, and the use of the tigershark AX-1-0 and Manta missile destroyers. The greatest weakness of the more common and smaller titans is their lack of anti-air weapons. This adaptation was best shown during the Taros campaign when a single tigershark AX-1-0 destroyed a warhound titan IN A SINGLE SHOT from its heavy rail guns. before you mention "but its void shields were down!", thats because it knocked them out with its own compliment of seeker missiles. Titans on the ground are one thing, titans in the air, entirely different.


I have no doubts that golden age tech used by grey knights, assassins and the custodes are more advanced, but these are examples of "deified" tech, in which each piece is worshipped for its hopeful function in battle. If it breaks down, its lost forever.


In response to the baneblade variants, It really is not a matter of inventing something new, because all of the technologies present in the stormsword and storm blade are standard imperial tech. When forgeworlds lacked the data to make their own shadowsword or baneblade, they tacked on titan or bigger versions of smaller weapons to make something that might just work. Adaptation is not invention.

Oh.. the vanquisher... it would put the rail gun to shame.. if most of the designs didn't warp the barrel, making it a one trick pony. I don't deny its superiority in the system, but i note that it is a technology that is flawed, and can make a tank useless if the barrel melts.

a note of tech corruption.
Vehicle corruption works by forcing demons into the very metal of the tank, and sealing it in there. demons and warp entities don't willingly go inside them. Tech corruption itself takes a VERY long time, and when you have a dynamic AI to defend it, the risk goes down. Chaos is not the end-all for all the races, they just want you to think it is.

On ship batteries..

Most imperial vessels use standard shell batteries (giant battle cannons) as their weapons, and fire them in a "shoot everything you can" manner, which equates to filling space with big shells. Tau rail guns fire at a much slower pace due to power flow issues, launching rail slugs at a slower pace, but higher accuracy. in the end it balances out. Plasma batteries is a lost tech and is only used on one single ship in the imperial fleet (one of the grand cruisers)


Yes, the imperial guard is a VERY effective fighting force. but their effectiveness does not stem from high technology. It grows from experience of fighting on dozens of worlds, and fanaticism to the emperor.

Iracundus
09-01-2008, 14:19
You're mistaken about Imperial starship usage of plasma weaponry. Read the main BFG rulebook on the Murder and Tyrant classes for example. The Murders were the former mainstay of Battlefleet Obscurus and had some of the finest plasma batteries ever produced by the AdMech. The Tyrant class features "superfired" plasma batteries with increased range compared to standard ones. "Weapon batteries" in BFG for Imperial ships represent a wide range of weapons, of which plasma batteries are actually one of the more common types, alongside projectile cannons.

Brother Siccarius
09-01-2008, 17:28
I say this

If the Tau were so advanced the would have figured out a way to compensate tech wise for their **** poor WS instead of having to deal with alien mercs (Kroot)

that's all I have to say.

It's an almost but no quite in some areas, **** poor in others, and fantastically beyond.

That's a culture thing, and really has nothing to do with their technology. If you really want to look at improved weapon skills though, look at the Battlesuit. Having a suit of mech armor wired directly into your brain kinda gives you some good reflexes. They don't like to fight in close combat, however, because it's chaotic, unpredictable, and it's much much more efficient to simply blast your opponent away at range (preferably before they know you're there).



I have no doubts that golden age tech used by grey knights, assassins and the custodes are more advanced, but these are examples of "deified" tech, in which each piece is worshipped for its hopeful function in battle. If it breaks down, its lost forever.

One thing, the tech used by the Grey Knights, assassins, and custodes are not Dark Age technology. Power Armor and Terminator armor was created as the Great Crusade went on, the first being used by troops on Terra. Psyker weaponry was only created and perfected some time after the great crusade was over, and the ban on Psyker soldiers put to a rest. The Assassins use technology that was perfected and created after the Dark Age, with the exception of the C'Tan phase blade. They aren't misunderstood or unable to be created, they're just wholly expensive and reserved only for the super-elite of the Imperium*.

*when you can't keep your own elite from rebelling, it's good to keep the best weaponry in the hands of those that are tasked with taking them down.

Bregalad
09-01-2008, 18:13
Holy threadomancy of 20 months old threads!

Zelnik
10-01-2008, 15:22
Sha-ZAM baby!

Firaxin
10-01-2008, 17:05
Railguns--they can't be fired by unaided infantry, the recoil is so great they would automatically miss. There are also literally hundreds, thousands, perhaps millions of lascannons to every one railgun.
Which pretty much applies to all the other gun comparisons.

I don't know why some equipment is discounted just because they're worshiped. Maybe they won't be able to repair it if it breaks down, but they can always build more, even if they don't understand it.

I'm actually inclined to believe there are more space marines than firewarriors. After all, if you read Kill Team, the tau get freaked out when they hear how many humans are on a single hive world. And there are probably dozens or hundreds or thousands of stormtroopers to a single firewarrior. I'm betting more SoB too.

Every Tau weapon you point to I can find a more powerful one which is being mass produced. Because frankly, nearly everything except the veryvery top tier stuff is produced at dedicated factories which churn out the same tank/weapon/ammunition/etc over and over and over again. Maybe they seem rare in the fluff or game terms, but that is because they're spread out over the entire Imperium. If the Imperium was say, the size of the Tau empire, I'm sure every Imperial regiment would have baneblades, titans, space marines, etc attached too it.

Chaplain of Chaos
10-01-2008, 17:12
Thats another thing to consider, the Imperium is monstrously vast next to the relatively itty bitty Tau Empire.

Orca
10-01-2008, 18:41
Oddly, the first thing I though of regarding Tau titans was GW doesn't want to get into legal hassles with the various Anime flying/fighting robot franchises.

Sekhmet
10-01-2008, 19:15
Railguns--they can't be fired by unaided infantry, the recoil is so great they would automatically miss. There are also literally hundreds, thousands, perhaps millions of lascannons to every one railgun.
Which pretty much applies to all the other gun comparisons.

I don't know why some equipment is discounted just because they're worshiped. Maybe they won't be able to repair it if it breaks down, but they can always build more, even if they don't understand it.

I'm actually inclined to believe there are more space marines than firewarriors. After all, if you read Kill Team, the tau get freaked out when they hear how many humans are on a single hive world. And there are probably dozens or hundreds or thousands of stormtroopers to a single firewarrior. I'm betting more SoB too.

Every Tau weapon you point to I can find a more powerful one which is being mass produced. Because frankly, nearly everything except the veryvery top tier stuff is produced at dedicated factories which churn out the same tank/weapon/ammunition/etc over and over and over again. Maybe they seem rare in the fluff or game terms, but that is because they're spread out over the entire Imperium. If the Imperium was say, the size of the Tau empire, I'm sure every Imperial regiment would have baneblades, titans, space marines, etc attached too it.

There's a difference between a massive manpower advantage and technology.

The Imperium has a massive manpower advantage. So great, in fact, that the Tau Empire isn't a threat. But just because the Imperium has a brute-force (programming reference) ideology towards technology doesn't mean they have better technology.

And yeah... 2 year old threads don't need to be bumped.

Firaxin
10-01-2008, 19:37
I'm talking about their mass production skills far surpassing the tau's. Economics and Logistics are a science in themselves. You could say the tau tech is inferior because its not that much better yet costs more and is slower to be produced.

GodofWarTx
11-01-2008, 03:27
They won't/can't develop psykicly. They were designed not too.

As for tau tech:
- It is currently almost at par and in some areas above imperial tech. Specialized imperial technology far surpasses it, but for the "average" peice of technological equipment the tau have a higher rate.

- Tau will continue to develop technology, but a main source of advancement will result from the integration of other alien cultures and technology. The imperium refuses to use any alien artifacts being "heretical". The tau accept them and use them as need be. Depending on who they come in contact with, it is forseeable they could quickly pass the imperium in many areas. Or, they may take time.

- Regarding tyranids: Tau are only facing splinter fleets; not an entire hive fleet (and they won't ever, GW won't kill one of their most popular races and their empire could obviously not handle it). The demiurg would convince the eldar to help them or something (the eldar seem to have some affection for their empire).

* The main difference between the tau and imperium is that the tau are advancing rapidly. They are also accepting of other cultures, and as such, much of their advancement come sfrom this area.


Regarding averages, its a bit difficult to play out like that, when considering the scale of things. A human hive world has more individuals than all of Tau space, according to a discussion between a delegation of Tau and Imperials in Kill Team. Heh, i seem to remember the Fire Warriors were horrified at this revelation and looked angrily to the Water Caste diplomats who were unapoligetic to the misdirection they were forced to use. The imperium has to produce *STANDARDIZED* weaponry for trillions of soldiers. The tau dont even come close to this logistical nightmare. I would argue the greatest asset the imperium has to its survival has been its logistical system that allows such an absolutely massive empire to survive. The beauty of it has to be the simplicity and adaptablility of its weapons systems like the lasgun, leman russ, and others.

The imperium stopped integrating alien tech after it was realized that quite a bit of alien tech is corrupted from the ruinous powers. Several of the original marine legions were lost due in fact to taking up and integrating alien tech, most notibly, the Emperor's Children.

It didnt help matters that for milennia mankind was preyed upon and almost exterminated during the Age of Strife.:(


Tau technology is rising to the same level which the Golden Age of mankind has, with the same sense of science and understanding. Unfortunately, just like mankind, all that AI technology will become corrupted just like the Iron Men did. Remember, mankind developed servitors because AI sentience is extremely vulnerable to corruption without a soul to anchor it in the warp. I would say the tau are even more vulnerable than man was because of their inherent "safety' from warp influence themselves (their low registry in the warp of their souls) causing them to underestimate the dangers of renegade AI.

A lot of the blessings done on machines goes back to the dark bleak days of the Heresy or earlier, when machines WERE able to be corrupted. The tau utilitarianism would be great and superior to mankinds mysticism......except for the fact that the warp exists and corruption is its nature.

Brother Siccarius
11-01-2008, 03:32
Railguns--they can't be fired by unaided infantry, the recoil is so great they would automatically miss. There are also literally hundreds, thousands, perhaps millions of lascannons to every one railgun.
Which pretty much applies to all the other gun comparisons.


Well, there's the rail rifle, which is the man-portable variant. I also don't see why the Railgun needs to be mass produced, nor why it's not possible to mass produce them. It's a weapon for a specific role, like everything in the Tau military. There's just no need for a railgun in every squad.

The Imperium is about overwhelming force, meaning mass use of the most powerful weaponry. The Tau get the same or better results with half the forces, and seven times the efficiency. Just because they don't have a railgun for every citizen, doesn't mean they can't do it if they wanted to.



I don't know why some equipment is discounted just because they're worshiped. Maybe they won't be able to repair it if it breaks down, but they can always build more, even if they don't understand it.


It's about comparing tech levels, which, as they don't understand certain tech, doesn't really count for a comparison of which race is better technologically skilled.

Chaplain of Chaos
11-01-2008, 04:44
Well we know that the Tau are more Technologically skilled... thats just sort of a fact of Fluff.

I think we where discussing just the basic nature of existing technology. Does anyone know what canon is on Machine Spirits? Are they real or superstitious mumbo-jumbo, because it's handled both ways.

Brother Thuemoose
11-01-2008, 05:06
I wish I saw this thread before posting in that "How do the Tau feel about the Necrons" one.
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121890&page=2

The Gothic Me
11-01-2008, 08:54
Is there actually any technology that the Tau have that the Imperium doesn't?

Sidri
11-01-2008, 11:24
Nope - Imperium saw it all... Just don't use anymore... Why to use pulse rifles when you have dirt-cheap and reliable lasgun which may work from the sun energy? Or why use difficult to maintaintroopcarriers, when you have 2-engined Chimera working on wood or anything else (including socks)???
Of course - pulse rifles are more painful but - would it work if you drop it in water? Does it need supply of ammo? How often does it necessary to clean it?
Of course - devilfishies are better, but I sincerely doubt that they would handle prolonged usage (say 6 months) without help of techpriest and where people may literally live?
That is the question of logistics and economy...
Considering "high stuff" - Imperium can and do produce rare equipment at least on Mars - and the quality is of Dark Age of Technology.... Just take baneblades - many forgeworlds try to produce them but only several possess STC - and Mars do possess as well as several others... Imperium just can not produce "high stuff" en large... Too costly... And would you dare giving assault cannons to IG regiments which may rebel?

ynkvyzytor
11-01-2008, 12:02
Thing which large number of people dont realize is that strenght of various armor and weapons in rules and fluff is VERY different.

For example you look at pulse rifle in tau codex, you think wow tau have real powerfull infantry weapon, str 5 this is better than bolter which have str 4. Problem is in fluff pulse rifle is as strong as hellgun, which is strenght 3. It has that high strenght in game rules only because gw wants to have different armies. There is no army which has base infantry weapon with str5 and rng 30. if you give pulse rifle str3 firewarriors are stormtroopers with higher range and lower bs.

And most advanced technology that imperium has is lasgun and i dont mean this as joke. Lasgun power packs can be recharged rapidly in campfire, campfire has extremely lesser energy than lasgun shots so its more than 100% energy transfer efficiency.

Someone said that IOM doesnt have cloaking technology - what about vindicare assasin, iirc he have cloak more advanced than stealthsuits.

And battlesuit is different thing than power armor. power armors priority is durability, battlesuits is firepower. power armor is strong armor that has servomotors to move it armor, battlesuit is mini dreadnought. And that crisis have 3+ save same as power armor doesnt mean they are same durability. 3+ save quality table would look something like this (from worse to best) - Stealthsuit,SoB PA,Crisis suit,Inquisitor PA, SM PA. (i dont know where to fit eldar 3+ saved units so i excluded them).

Getz
11-01-2008, 13:08
At the risk of sounding more offensive than I intend to, you clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about...


Thing which large number of people dont realize is that strenght of various armor and weapons in rules and fluff is VERY different.

No it's not. This argument only normally gets wheeled out when people don't think that their favourite army is and uber-hard an l33t as they think it should be, but there is one very important fact that you have to take into account.

Very little of the fluff is written from an unbiased, disspassionate viewpoint.

Furthermore, most of the fluff is written with a greater emphasis on drama than internal consistancy. As a result, in most books about guard Lasguns are dangerous weapons capable of taking down marines with reasonable regularity. In most books about Marines a Marine can shrug off pretty much anything short of a lascannon like warm summer rain (and they can shrug off lascannons on occasion too). What's the truth? <shrug> Whatever the author wants it to be of course....

The only objective measure of the "reality" of the 40K universe is the game. Afterall, the games we play are the "real" events in the 40K universe, and the fluff is a dramatisation of those events. Obviously the game is too crude to describe the fine detail, but if we know that a Lasgun will wound a human on a 4+, then we know that it has about about a 50% chance of inflicting an incapacitating wound per hit, which interestingly enough is about the same as an M16 or AK74...

Similarly, we can say that Power armour gives the wearer about a 70% chance of surviving effective small arms fire and that it takes specialised weaponry to reliably breach it...


For example you look at pulse rifle in tau codex, you think wow tau have real powerfull infantry weapon, str 5 this is better than bolter which have str 4. Problem is in fluff pulse rifle is as strong as hellgun, which is strenght 3. It has that high strenght in game rules only because gw wants to have different armies. There is no army which has base infantry weapon with str5 and rng 30. if you give pulse rifle str3 firewarriors are stormtroopers with higher range and lower bs.

Where exactly did you get the idea that a Pulse rifle is as strong as a Hellgun? I've never seen any official fluff that implied that, and until you can reference me some I'm not going to dignify that with any further response.

However, you've clearly got the whole relationship between the fluff and the Game the wrong way round. The game comes first. GW decided to create an army universally equiped with powerful weapons, but only average BS and poor HtH - and then created fluff to explain it - High Technology but weak physiology.

In fact, just take a look at the development of the Tau to see how this works. Apparently, originally the Tau were going to be BS4, but playtesting during development showed that to be rather overpowered so the Army had it's BS dropped by a point and some fluff was made up about how Tau have poor eyeight compared to Humans to explain this.


And most advanced technology that imperium has is lasgun and i dont mean this as joke. Lasgun power packs can be recharged rapidly in campfire, campfire has extremely lesser energy than lasgun shots so its more than 100% energy transfer efficiency.

I agree about the idea that a Lasgun battery is a very advanced piece of kit, but 100% efficient energy transfer is a physical impossibility.


Someone said that IOM doesnt have cloaking technology - what about vindicare assasin, iirc he have cloak more advanced than stealthsuits.

In game terms their effetiveness is about the same, but Vindicare Assassins are vanishingly few in number (probably a couple of hundred across the entire Imperium) and they are the only expression of this technology in the Imperial Armoury. Stealth suits and Sniper Drones are positively commonplace in comparison.


And battlesuit is different thing than power armor. power armors priority is durability, battlesuits is firepower. power armor is strong armor that has servomotors to move it armor, battlesuit is mini dreadnought. And that crisis have 3+ save same as power armor doesnt mean they are same durability.

You're quite right. They're considerably more durable than Power Armour...


3+ save quality table would look something like this (from worse to best) - Stealthsuit,SoB PA,Crisis suit,Inquisitor PA, SM PA. (i dont know where to fit eldar 3+ saved units so i excluded them).

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong... And you are clearly betraying you Imperial Base here too. Tau Battlesuits confer both an armour save and also an increase in toughness to the bearer and in the instance of a Crisis or Broadside suit, additional wounds as well (incidentally, I'd assume that Eldar power armour is considerably more advanced than either Imperial or tau Technology - it's certainly a lot less bulky - but it doesn't offer any better protection than the power armour worn by a SoB)

The Power Armour work by SoBs and Inquisitors is essentially the same thing, and sits at the bottom of the scale. Marine Armour is superior thanks to the black Carapace, but gains most of it's superior durability from the inherent Toughness of the Marine inside. Stealth Armour is capable of giving a (T3) Tau the same ability to resist firepower as an SM, so it must have superior protective capabilities, and the Crisis suit is more durable still (the old Tau Codex explicitly states that the Crisis Suit conferred the extra wound on the wearer, but that nugget was removed from the latest version). Furthermore, in order for Crisis and Broadside suits to match their fluff, they'd ideally be T4(5) - but there you go, the idea that the Fluff should take predominance over th game mechanics never seems to apply when it makes something better than Marine tech... :eyebrows:

ynkvyzytor
11-01-2008, 14:15
No it's not. This argument only normally gets wheeled out when people don't think that their favourite army is and uber-hard an l33t as they think it should be, but there is one very important fact that you have to take into account.

Very little of the fluff is written from an unbiased, disspassionate viewpoint.

Furthermore, most of the fluff is written with a greater emphasis on drama than internal consistancy. As a result, in most books about guard Lasguns are dangerous weapons capable of taking down marines with reasonable regularity. In most books about Marines a Marine can shrug off pretty much anything short of a lascannon like warm summer rain (and they can shrug off lascannons on occasion too). What's the truth? <shrug> Whatever the author wants it to be of course....

You are right in that warhammer is internaly quite inconsistent. But in most books space marines are quite resistant to lasguns but are killable by them if there is large number of them firing or heavy charshielded character firing full power shot to head or some weakpoint of power armor.

And I am really curious where can space marines(power armored) shrug off lascannons or even where they are totaly invurneable to las fire.






The only objective measure of the "reality" of the 40K universe is the game. Afterall, the games we play are the "real" events in the 40K universe, and the fluff is a dramatatisation of those events. Obviously the game is too crude to describe the fine detail, but if we know that a Lasgun will wound a human on a 4+, then we know that it has about about a 50% chance of inflicting an incapacitating wound per hit, which interestingly enough is about the same as an M16 or AK74...

Similarly, we can say that Power armour gives the wearer about a 70% chance of surviving effective small arms fire and that it takes specialised weaponry to reliably breach it...


Yeah sure and ig consript has 20% chance to beat SM in CC

Heavy destroyer cannon is in fluff described to punch through both sides of landrider without larger power loss at other end. In game Rules it has like str 9
ap 2.
Railgun can Shoot trough Leman russ but not so easilly and shootingh through Russ is easier than land rider because land rider is bigger and heavier armored.
In game Rules it has str 10 ap 1.

And there are lot more inconsistences.

Yes backgroud was deveploved for the game but afaik this is backgroud section of forum not rules.But backgroud evolved from point where it was there only because of TT game.There are lots of people that are interested in warhammer background and didnt played single game of 40k or dont know how TT works and i know few people that even dont know that TT of warhammer exists or it was crated for 40k backgroun not other way around.




Where exactly did you get the idea that a Pulse rifle is as strong as a Hellgun? I've never seen any official fluff that implied that, and until you can reference me some I'm not going to dignify that with any further response.

For example in kill team iirc they were weaker than bolters and there is lot more but beacause i borrow books from library, dont have tau codex (but i have read it), and google search is unsucessfull because if i search strenght of pulse rifle it founds masses of game list and rules i cant give any direct qoutes.



In fact, just take a look at the development of the Tau to see how this works. Apparently, originally the Tau were going to be BS4, but playtesting during development showed that to be rather overpowered so the Army had it's BS dropped by a point and some fluff was made up about how Tau have poor eyeight compared to Humans to explain this.

Like I said fluff is created for army because of tabletop but it evolves from here.




I agree about the idea that a Lasgun battery is a very advanced piece of kit, the 100% efficient energy transfer is a physical impossibility.

Like Recoil of Lasguns or hundred of other thing in 40k that are physical impossibility?





In game terms their effetiveness is about the same, but Vindicare Assassins are vanishingly few in number (probably a couple of hundred across the entire Imperium) and they are the only expression of this technology in the Imperial Armoury. Stealth suits and Sniper Drones are positively commonplace in comparison. In Game yes in fluff i think that vidicares stealth is better but i wouldnt argue about it.And i said that imperium has stealth technology not that it is as common as it is for tau.




Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong... And you are clearly betraying you Imperial Base here too. Tau Battlesuits confer both an armour save and also an increase in toughness to the bearer and in the instance of a Crisis or Broadside suit, additional wounds as well (incidentally, I'd assume that Eldar power armour is considerably more advanced than either Imperial or tau Technology - it's certainly a lot less bulky - but it doesn't offer any better protection than the power armour worn by a SoB)

The Power Armour work by SoBs and Inquisitors is essentially the same thing, and sits at the bottom of the scale. Marine Armour is superior thanks to the black Carapace, but gains most of it's superior durability from the inherent Toughness of the Marine inside. Stealth Armour is capable of giving a (T3) Tau the same ability to resist firepower as an SM, so it must have superior protective capabilities, and the Crisis suit is more durable still (the old Tau Codex explicitly states that the Crisis Suit conferred the extra wound on the wearer, but that nugget was removed from the latest version). Furthermore, in order for Crisis and Broadside suits to match their fluff, they'd ideally be T4(5) - but there you go, the idea that the Fluff should take predominance over th game mechanics never seems to apply when it makes something better than Marine tech... :eyebrows:

And you know why battlesuits give additional wound or toughness? Maybe because battlesuit have a lot of matterial to shot off without harming pilot.If you shot hand off power armor loss of arm is going to be quite unpeasant.If you shot of arm from battlesuit you just shot one of battlesuits weapons problem is it has two more(afaik tau is only in torso of battlesuit head arms and legs ar machanical without any part of tau pilot).But actual armour durability of marines armor is better so if you hit part of battlesuit where is pilot located it has lot lower probability of survival.

In fluff sob power armor is more like powered carpace, marine is more like walking tank. And even logicaly would you expect that marines armour that has like 4 times stronger armour plates would offer same protection like sob power armor?

Getz
11-01-2008, 14:40
The reason why Crisis suits are more durable doesn't alter the fact that they are more durable...

ynkvyzytor
11-01-2008, 15:31
The reason why Crisis suits are more durable doesn't alter the fact that they are more durable...

No i didnt said that crisis is more durable.

Which you would consider more durable tank with massive frontal armor and no rear armor or tank that has good all around armor.

This is the same thing, against unprecise(orks) attacks crisis suit is better but against someone who knows where to shoot and can hit it(space marines) crisis suit is a lot weaker.

Forbiddenknowledge
11-01-2008, 15:44
Something I'm not sure has been brought up - teleportation.

The way it works in the 40k universe is by sending the telepotee briefly through the warp (See numerous fluff examples). Whilst it may not be beyond the Tau to do this, eventually, currently they lack the ability to do so - the main way they can enter the warp is hardly small scale enough for teleportation.

Also - through numerous examples in fluff, like SoD, it is noted that Tau equipment is exceptionally easy to maintain - a pulse rifle could take knocks and continue to fire.

Whilst pulse rifles use ammunition, they contain thousands of shots worth - the limiting factor being power. The cell however can be charged up by the backpack, with the small scale (can't remember the tau name for it - like cold fusion style generator).


Problem is in Fluff pulse rifle is as strong as hellgun

Where in the Empire are you getting this? Fluff wise, whilst a lasgun and hellgun can blow of a limb with a good shot, a pulse rifle can obliterate torso's, and even cause serious (although not always fatal) damage to power armour.

Getz
11-01-2008, 17:45
No i didnt said that crisis is more durable.

Which you would consider more durable tank with massive frontal armor and no rear armor or tank that has good all around armor.

This is the same thing, against unprecise(orks) attacks crisis suit is better but against someone who knows where to shoot and can hit it(space marines) crisis suit is a lot weaker.

Well, you can think what you like, but none of this alters the fact that Crisis suits are more durable than Marine Power armour, both in the fluff and in the game.

Incidentally, history tells us that the Tank with heavy armour on the front is far superior to the one with all round even protection...

ynkvyzytor
11-01-2008, 17:46
Something I'm not sure has been brought up - teleportation.

The way it works in the 40k universe is by sending the telepotee briefly through the warp (See numerous fluff examples). Whilst it may not be beyond the Tau to do this, eventually, currently they lack the ability to do so - the main way they can enter the warp is hardly small scale enough for teleportation.

Necrons can teleport without warp so tau arent neccesiary limited to warp technology.




Also - through numerous examples in fluff, like SoD, it is noted that Tau equipment is exceptionally easy to maintain - a pulse rifle could take knocks and continue to fire.

Whilst pulse rifles use ammunition, they contain thousands of shots worth - the limiting factor being power. The cell however can be charged up by the backpack, with the small scale (can't remember the tau name for it - like cold fusion style generator).

Isnt star of damocles book where broadsides can shoot down imperial starships from orbit with fusion blasters?

Dont know about power but pulse rifle has build in magazine for lots of shots but it can be only reoladed in base by technics.



Where in the Empire are you getting this? Fluff wise, whilst a lasgun and hellgun can blow of a limb with a good shot, a pulse rifle can obliterate torso's, and even cause serious (although not always fatal) damage to power armour.

For example in kill team pulse rifles were stronger than lasgun (not by that much) and weaker than bolter.
And can you please tell me where pulse rifle obliterates torso? or anything that is so much stronger than lasgun.



Incidentally, history tells us that the Tank with heavy armour on the front is far superior to the one with all round even protection...

I didnt mean that it is crisis and pa is exactly like that tanks it only that both have different kind of armor.

Crisis armor is usefull against orks that care more about number of rounds fired than accuracy
Power armor is usefull against sm that would fire burst of bolts to most vurneable location

Chaplain of Chaos
11-01-2008, 18:08
Game pulse rifle is stronger than both, lasguns, hellguns and bolters.

ynkvyzytor
11-01-2008, 18:17
Game pulse rifle is stronger than both, lasguns, hellguns and bolters.

Wow i dint know that and i didnt try to explain that game stats and fluff has in lot of ocassions few in common.
IF I wanted to write about game rules I would go to rules section of this forums not in backgroud.

Chaplain of Chaos
11-01-2008, 18:26
Well... Game Rules section isn't a good place to have a discussion on the diffrences between Imperial and Tau Tech as that's more for asking specific game rules question. This is a discussion on the diffrences of the two factions weapons so it's perfectly justifiable to use in game stats as comparisons.

ynkvyzytor
11-01-2008, 18:33
Well... Game Rules section isn't a good place to have a discussion on the diffrences between Imperial and Tau Tech as that's more for asking specific game rules question. This is a discussion on the diffrences of the two factions weapons so it's perfectly justifiable to use in game stats as comparisons.

OK.
In other forums where i posted, using game statistic for backgroud discussion was more like last resort and considered stupid if not necesary.
It seems that opinion about using game stats in bacgroud discussion here is different.
Sorry if my previous post sounded offensive.

FrankManic
11-01-2008, 18:36
The quick refutation is that the Tau can build and repair all their equipment flawlessly, whereas the Imperium hasn't got a damned clue how to replace a lot of it's more advanced gear. I suppose a good example of this is the jump packs versus battlesuits. Imperial Jump Packs are used by a small and incredibly elite percentage of it's armed forces, and even then on a limited basis. The Tau, on the other hand, use Jump systems extensively on their heavy infantry and scout battlesuits as a fully integrated part of their military apparatus. The Tau don't neccesarily outstrip the Empire in sheer technological badassedness, but they have better utilization and are much more adaptable in their technology.

Dyrnwyn
11-01-2008, 18:52
OK.
In other forums where i posted using game statistic for backgroud discussion was more like last resort and considered stupid if no necesary.
It seems that opinion about using game stats in bacgroud discussion here is different.
Sorry if my previous post sounded offensive.

Well, frankly, if you're talking about the background in terms of relative power between weapons, the rules are the best place to go, since they explicitly place weapons on a 1-10 scale in strength, give AP values, and approximate ranges. If you read the books, nothing is consistent. In one book a Marine tears through Eldar like their Guardians and Aspects are cheap marionettes, and in another, Eldar massacre what must be half a chapter of Marines without losing anything significant. Lasguns may be peashooters incapable of seriously hurting Marines in one book, and deadly weapons in the next. Getz has been constantly pointing this out to you.

The background is more useful for having discussions that aren't related to the battlefield, like logistics strength, views on other factions, tactics doctrine, civilian life, etc. In discussions like these, yeah, it is silly to reference the game rules. However, in a discussion where you mention that "pulse rifles are stronger than lasguns, but weaker than bolters" is wrong, because the rules flat out state that pulse rifles are stronger than both lasguns, hellguns, and bolters.

Incidentally, if you want background indicating the strength of pulse rifles, Ciaphas Cain finds a battlefield where some cultists have been attacked by Tau Pathfinders, and finds the corpses with shattered chests and burnt internals; so gruesome and burnt he assumes they were hit by plasma weaponry. That's why you don't use anything but the rules to indicate weapon strength, because for narrative purposes, one book says pulse fire<bolters and another says pulse fire=plasma.

ynkvyzytor
11-01-2008, 19:17
Well, frankly, if you're talking about the background in terms of relative power between weapons, the rules are the best place to go, since they explicitly place weapons on a 1-10 scale in strength, give AP values, and approximate ranges. If you read the books, nothing is consistent. In one book a Marine tears through Eldar like their Guardians and Aspects are cheap marionettes, and in another, Eldar massacre what must be half a chapter of Marines without losing anything significant. Lasguns may be peashooters incapable of seriously hurting Marines in one book, and deadly weapons in the next. Getz has been constantly pointing this out to you. Background is inconsistent but not as you want it to make. Where is aspect warrior better than spacemarin in anything except his own speciality? And tactics and strategy have effect in battle too what if victories of some races on books were because tactics no because superior weapons.
Lasguns are capabel of hurting PAed SM in all books that I read and in no books that I read are capable to hurting PAed SM exceptionaly easy.
This bacground incostistence is almost in every sci-fi so warhammer isnt exception.



The background is more useful for having discussions that aren't related to the battlefield, like logistics strength, views on other factions, tactics doctrine, civilian life, etc. In discussions like these, yeah, it is silly to reference the game rules. However, in a discussion where you mention that "pulse rifles are stronger than lasguns, but weaker than bolters" is wrong, because the rules flat out state that pulse rifles are stronger than both lasguns, hellguns, and bolters.

Even if background is incostistent its still better than rules that are made to be balanced not to be precise to background. But in most weapon comparsion I agree that rules are quite precise but there are some horibly under and overstated weapons and units. For example pulse rifle is imho MOST overstated weapon in warhammer rules, Necron weapons on other hand are HORIBLY understated. Grey Knights are described in fluff to be on par with sm librarians but stat wise they are lot weaker.




Incidentally, if you want background indicating the strength of pulse rifles, Ciaphas Cain finds a battlefield where some cultists have been attacked by Tau Pathfinders, and finds the corpses with shattered chests and burnt internals; so gruesome and burnt he assumes they were hit by plasma weaponry. That's why you don't use anything but the rules to indicate weapon strength, because for narrative purposes, one book says pulse fire<bolters and another says pulse fire=plasma.

This is something Hellgun would do. After hit by bolter there is no torso but scattered pieces of flesh. And after being hit by imperial plasma gun there is no torso because it is completly vaporised.
And incidentaly he is true they were actualy hit by plasma weaponry because iirc pulse rounds turn in plasma after fired.

Getz
11-01-2008, 19:26
For example pulse rifle is imho MOST overstated weapon in warhammer rules <snip>

That pretty much sums it up doesn't it - In your opinion....

In my opinion Space Marines should be instant killed by flying Ham sandwiches - it's their own brand of Kryptonite! Doesn't make it true though, does it?

Pulse Weapons are S5. Bolters are S4. Those are facts. Deal with them.

legio mortis
11-01-2008, 19:50
In game terms their effetiveness is about the same, but Vindicare Assassins are vanishingly few in number (probably a couple of hundred across the entire Imperium) and they are the only expression of this technology in the Imperial Armoury. Stealth suits and Sniper Drones are positively commonplace in comparison.
Just as a quick note about stealth fields, Imperial ships can be equipped with null shields, that hide them from any and all forms of detection, even psychic. There are, however, found mainly on Inquisitorial and AdMech ships, but have found their way onto a Navy ship or two.

kikkoman
11-01-2008, 19:58
Game pulse rifle is stronger than both, lasguns, hellguns and bolters.


Game Big Shoota is stronger than both, pulse rifles and burst cannons.

ynkvyzytor
11-01-2008, 23:18
That pretty much sums it up doesn't it - In your opinion....

That imho part was actualy to most not to overstated

like - Pulse rifles are overstated in rulebook and imho the most overstated.




Pulse Weapons are S5. Bolters are S4. Those are facts. Deal with them.

Weapon strenghts from TT are sometimes LOT different than strenght of this weapon in fluff.
This is fact. Deal with it

Ok this isnt leading anywhere, you dont accept other proofs than game rules which i cant provide. I dont accept other proofs than background which I doubt you can provide, so I will move on to other technologies.

Tau Afaik doesnt have any superheavy tanks. No titans and their super heavy aircraft has chance only against warhounds imperium has larger titans.
Tau warp speed is iirc 1/6 of imperial. And because lots of technology that tau have is obtained from other races I think it is fair to say that imperium has digital weapons. Imperium can gravdrop entire regiments of troops from dropships can tau do the same? what about gravchutes do tau have them?Some Imperial tanks have inertial dampeners on their guns.

And Imperium do advance their technology but extremly slowly - for example hellfire rounds vere created againist tyranids and tyranids showed after hh (i dont know exactly when they were created but it is quite new technology(for imperium))

txamil
12-01-2008, 00:00
Anyway, the answer is necrons.

The Gothic Me
12-01-2008, 00:08
I think that in the end the facts say that the Imperium has better technology, but it appears to be the other way around because the Tau have better logistics and government which allow them to get their best equipment onto the field in large amounts, whereas the Imperiums stagnant beurocracy hamstrings them even though their tech is technically superior.

I donít seeing it being any more complex then that.

Mott
12-01-2008, 00:16
Just put a model hammerhead next to a model leman russ. (im an IG armored player too)

but tau don't have psykers and cant manipulate the warp. Everyone else has gods\demons\c'tan\psykers n such.

However in the imperium's defense, do the tau have things like displacer fields?
(personal teleporters that go off when in danger, teleporting you a short distance to safety)

Id say thats pretty damn hi tech, even if its inquisitor only stuff.

I also think theres alot of merit in the cost\technology argument. Why make\find plasma guns for every man when you can have ten men with lasguns?

Hellebore
12-01-2008, 00:47
That pretty much sums it up doesn't it - In your opinion....

In my opinion Space Marines should be instant killed by flying Ham sandwiches - it's their own brand of Kryptonite! Doesn't make it true though, does it?

Pulse Weapons are S5. Bolters are S4. Those are facts. Deal with them.

Except that in Inquisitor a bolt pistol does 2D10+4 damage, and a pulse pistol does 2D6 damage:

http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/tau.html

So the rules on the table top although useful as a benchmark are not very helpful at all, because they are beholden to the gods of balance.

An eldar Pathfinder in Inquisitor has a BS of 110%, whilst a space marine Captain has a BS of 75% despite have completely different stats in 40k.


Hellebore

Getz
12-01-2008, 01:47
Weapon strenghts from TT are sometimes LOT different than strenght of this weapon in fluff.
This is fact. Deal with it

Then the fluff is wrong. Simple as... There is no objective truth out there because the 40k universe doesn't exist. There is only the Game rules...


Ok this isnt leading anywhere, you dont accept other proofs than game rules which i cant provide. I dont accept other proofs than background which I doubt you can provide, so I will move on to other technologies.

Okay, from now on I will reference the source of all my counters to your points. Somehow I doubt you an do the same. I will accept the fluff as a perfectly valid source of information, but not in the completely asinine case of trying to claim that an S4 weapon is more powerful than an S5 weapon on the grounds that a couple of unamed, unreferenced fluff sources say so - despite being contradicted by an at least equal number of fluff sources and the actual game rules.


Tau Afaik doesnt have any superheavy tanks. No titans and their super heavy aircraft has chance only against warhounds imperium has larger titans.

What about Mantas? They're more than capable of taking down a Warlord, and have done so in the fluff. This can be found in the Tau Codex and in Imperial Armour Volume 3.

The Tau don't use superheavy Tanks and Walkers because the choose not to, having instead pursued the path of the Superheavy flyer. This says nothing about their technological capability, instead being a reflection of their battlefied doctrine.


Tau warp speed is iirc 1/6 of imperial.

Actually, on average 1/3 of imperial warp speed according to BFG Armada, and thats a consistant speed not subject to the vagrancies of the warp, which can completely throw Imperial wap travel.


And because lots of technology that tau have is obtained from other races I think it is fair to say that imperium has digital weapons.

Eh? The Tau have miniturised wargear - consider Aun-shi's forcefield in an amulet and that odd widget the Water Caste envoy could take in Inquisitor - and the fact that they are prepared to trade technology enables them to expand their technology base faster than by trying to work it out for themselves. Their willingness to learn from other races is an advantage, not a disadvantage.


Imperium can gravdrop entire regiments of troops from dropships can tau do the same?

Yes. There's a picture of them doing exactly that in the codex


what about gravchutes do tau have them?

Yes - they're called Jet Packs (which according to the Tau codex combine both Anti-grav and jet technology)


Some Imperial tanks have inertial dampeners on their guns.

All Battle Suits and Tau tanks have equivalent systems. Various bits of Battlesuit and vehicle wargear are described as such in the Tau codex.

legio mortis
12-01-2008, 04:00
Then the fluff is wrong. Simple as... There is no objective truth out there because the 40k universe doesn't exist. There is only the Game rules...
As has been posted by Hellebore, it's a bad idea to take game rules literally. They're there for balance. If the game was to be truly fluffy, then the Leman Russ would be able to move and fire all it's weapons accurately, meaning no scatter for the battlecannon.

I believe that part of the reason that the Pulse Rifle is S5 is because of the Fire Caste's inherent ranged ability. Fluffwise, the bolter will cause much more body damage than a pulse rifle. The pulse rifle basically fires a small plasma particle that burns it's way through the body. A bolter, on the other hand, explodes after penetrating the body.



What about Mantas? They're more than capable of taking down a Warlord, and have done so in the fluff. This can be found in the Tau Codex and in Imperial Armour Volume 3.
The biggest titan that the Tau have encountered was a Warhound, not a Warlord.


Yes. There's a picture of them doing exactly that in the codex
A picture of them grav-dropping all of their soldiers? No, but they have pictures of Crises suits dropping from Mantas, not Firewarriors.


Some Imperial tanks have inertial dampeners on their guns.
Actually, just about every Imperial tank has inertial dampeners built in. It helps gyro-stabilize the main gun and at the same time it acts as a shock absorber for the gun's tremendous recoil.

Brother Thuemoose
12-01-2008, 07:43
Is there any fluff on whether the Tau have cloning tech? Because that seems to be another area that the Imperium has them beat

The Gothic Me
12-01-2008, 07:55
Is there any fluff on whether the Tau have cloning tech? Because that seems to be another area that the Imperium has them beat

I thought the Imperium couldn't clone?

Chaplain of Chaos
12-01-2008, 08:07
In an amusing Fluff reference to inconsistancy, I believe it was in Dawn of War: Ascension. The Blood Ravens lose and entire squad of space marines to Eldar Pathfinders without ever even glimpsing their enemies. Supposedly the Eldar where so ungodly good they just whispered around the edges of sight and took little potshots till the marines where cut down.

Getz
12-01-2008, 11:45
The biggest titan that the Tau have encountered was a Warhound, not a Warlord.

The Tau encountered and destroyed Warlords during the Damocles Crusade. It's described in the old Tau Codex


A picture of them grav-dropping all of their soldiers? No, but they have pictures of Crises suits dropping from Mantas, not Firewarriors.

But they do show an Ethereal Grav dropping with a Fire Warrior sized Jet pack and there is no reason why Fire Warriors couldn't potentially be issued with them as needs require. Furthermore. The Imperium isn't capable of Grav Dropping all their troops either - only the specialised Drop troop regiments.

ynkvyzytor
12-01-2008, 12:12
Okay, from now on I will reference the source of all my counters to your points. Somehow I doubt you an do the same. I will accept the fluff as a perfectly valid source of information, but not in the completely asinine case of trying to claim that an S4 weapon is more powerful than an S5 weapon on the grounds that a couple of unamed, unreferenced fluff sources say so - despite being contradicted by an at least equal number of fluff sources and the actual game rules.

I said before that my source was killteam. And as Hellebore said in inquisitor which i would said is less concerned about ballance(not that it was perfectly logical in strenghts, I remeber something about marine punching harder than lasgun) and there has pulse pistol less than half damage of bolt pistol.



The Tau don't use superheavy Tanks and Walkers because the choose not to, having instead pursued the path of the Superheavy flyer. This says nothing about their technological capability, instead being a reflection of their battlefied doctrine.

They could build superheavy skimmers like eldar and eldar have fast attack and hit and run doctrine too.



Eh? The Tau have miniturised wargear - consider Aun-shi's forcefield in an amulet and that odd widget the Water Caste envoy could take in Inquisitor - and the fact that they are prepared to trade technology enables them to expand their technology base faster than by trying to work it out for themselves. Their willingness to learn from other races is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

Forcefield in amulet - Imperium has rosarius
And if you meant that gizmo thing it isnt realy that miniature

Digital weapons are ring sized and they contain lasgun or needler (usualy one-shot but i belive there was version with more shots)




Yes - they're called Jet Packs (which according to the Tau codex combine both Anti-grav and jet technology)

Tau jet pack are big and used by battlesuits. Grav chutes are small and normal IG troops uses them. And can jet pack decelerate from maximum speed that can object falling in atmosphere accomplish (dont know gravity on that planet) To safe landing speed five meters above ground? (source is Dark Apostle)


In an amusing Fluff reference to inconsistancy, I believe it was in Dawn of War: Ascension. The Blood Ravens lose and entire squad of space marines to Eldar Pathfinders without ever even glimpsing their enemies. Supposedly the Eldar where so ungodly good they just whispered around the edges of sight and took little potshots till the marines where cut down.

Yes but Dawn of War Ascension was written C.S. Goto which is in numerous forums and reviews called something like bane of warhammer fluff or K.J. Anderson of warhammer(For those who dont know him some of his "greatest" accomplishments - Star Wars Star Destroyer equiped with railguns, In one starcraft book are colonist without almost any efective weapons that succesfully defended agains zerg attack, Hydralisk that failed to penetrate front window of theirs truck with his ranged attack, And hydralisk shooting down Battlecruiser)



But they do show an Ethereal Grav dropping with a Fire Warrior sized Jet pack and there is no reason why Fire Warriors couldn't potentially be issued with them as needs require. Furthermore. The Imperium isn't capable of Grav Dropping all their troops either - only the specialised Drop troop regiments.

Imperium is capable of gravdroping entire regiments without any special equipment for the troopers, Anti-Grav drop system can be instaled on dropship. (i try to find source)

Getz
12-01-2008, 12:40
I said before that my source was killteam. And as Hellebore said in inquisitor which i would said is less concerned about ballance(not that it was perfectly logical in strenghts, I remeber something about marine punching harder than lasgun) and there has pulse pistol less than half damage of bolt pistol.

I'm afraid the Space Marine stats in Inquisitor are pure fan******y, and the only Tau Character available is a Water Caste Envoy. Get back to me when they do rules for a Fire Caste Warrior.


They could build superheavy skimmers like eldar and eldar have fast attack and hit and run doctrine too.

But they don't. It doesn't mean they can't - in fact the technology displayed by the Manta means they almost certainly can.


Forcefield in amulet - Imperium has rosarius

Yes they do, and I don't remember saying they didn't - -I was just citing an example of miniturised Tau wargear. :rolleyes:



Tau jet pack are big and used by battlesuits. Grav chutes are small and normal IG troops uses them.

Jet Packs come in a variety of sizes, ranging from the big ones in Crisis suits to the small ones in Drones. The Jet Pack on a Stealth Suit is about the same physical size as an Elysian Grav chute.


And can jet pack decelerate from maximum speed that can object falling in atmosphere accomplish (dont know gravity on that planet) To safe landing speed five meters above ground? (source is Dark Apostle)

Yes, because they are used for high altitude deployment. Can a Grav chute grant the wearer free flight like a jet pack? No, it can't.


Imperium is capable of gravdroping entire regiments without any special equipment for the troopers, Anti-Grav drop system can be instaled on dropship. (i try to find source)

Look. I don't know where you think you're going with this but I'm well aware that Imperial Technology trumps the Tau in some areas and wouldn't deny it. None of that makes you any less wrong for thinking a S4 weapon is more powerful than an S5 one, which is the point I took issue with you on.

Nazguire
12-01-2008, 12:49
Colonisation and exploration vessels when the Tau really were young and naive with not a clue about the wider galaxy...

Xisor

Kinda like how they are now eh? Young, naive, with no real idea about how hostile the galaxy is at large as they are isolated in their big fish in small pond Empire.

phalonia
12-01-2008, 15:29
The comment was made at the beginning of this thread that Imperial plasma technology is better because it is more powerful, and that if it was so desired the Imperium could lower the energy on their plasma weapons to make them as stable as Tau equivalents. This is incorrect as it is well known that the big difference between Imperial and Tau technology is that the Imperium replicates ancient designs without really understanding how they work, whereas the Tau actually understand the full workings of their technology. To that end they can continue to research and develop, whilst the Imperium is stuck with designs that are not rethought or improved.

Eetion
12-01-2008, 16:12
It could be the Imperium has stronger plasma tech cos the Tau reduced the strength to overcome the inherrent safety issue at a higher power. Id take reliability over increased power anyday.

Iracundus
12-01-2008, 18:01
If one looks at the Eldar, their Starcannons are also at S6 but are safe so it seems there is a similar plateau in Strength across multiple races. It could be that at that particular scale, there are inherent issues with safety at any higher power that might either be technically difficult to solve or which may be too expensive to do so. The Imperium however has no shortage of manpower and values power over safety.

Sir_Turalyon
12-01-2008, 18:14
his is incorrect as it is well known that the big difference between Imperial and Tau technology is that the Imperium replicates ancient designs without really understanding how they work, whereas the Tau actually understand the full workings of their technology.


Actualy, Heresy-era plasma weapons were even more deadly and dangerous to vield, and Imperium redesigned their plasma weaopns to ensure greater safety of troops. This is no longer reflected in rules, but was described in 2nd ed codex:Chaos. Other question is, could Imperium do it again nowadays...

ynkvyzytor
12-01-2008, 19:19
Tau plasma weapons are battlesuit weapons and arent used by infantry which means they are probably lot bigger and heavier than imperium counterpart. And Imperium can make pistol sized plasma weapons unlike tau.

Iracundus
12-01-2008, 19:24
The 2nd ed. Chaos Codex bit about plasma weapons has been superceded and is now obsolete. Originally in 2nd ed., plasma weapons had to recharge a turn after firing, and the Chaos Heresy era ones were the ones that did not need to recharge but had a risk of overheating. In the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex, it said the number of casualties from plasma weapon overheating was unacceptable so the Imperium instead changed over to using ones that had a slower fire rate (spending a turn cooling). Obviously since 3rd ed., this is no longer the case.

legio mortis
12-01-2008, 19:32
Furthermore. The Imperium isn't capable of Grav Dropping all their troops either - only the specialised Drop troop regiments.
Yes they are. They did it when they invaded Luybov (or something like that) by creating large gravity wells off of the side of their drop ships.

Getz
12-01-2008, 20:10
Tau plasma weapons are battlesuit weapons and arent used by infantry which means they are probably lot bigger and heavier than imperium counterpart. And Imperium can make pistol sized plasma weapons unlike tau.

Again, this is a question of doctrine rather than technology, as Tau do not employ special or heavy weapons in their basic infantry squads. The Tau may or may not be able to develop pistol sized plasma weapons, but the fact that haven't doesn't mean they can't.

Dakkagor
12-01-2008, 20:58
Looking at the size of a plasma rifle/fusion gun, or burst cannon, the only thing stopping the tau using squad based special and heavy weapons is doctrine. The tau could also choose to produce a plasma pistol, but choose not to because a plasma pistol is useful only to dedicated assault troops going up against hard targets. Considering that when the tau find a hard target they tend to accelerate a chunk of high speed metal through it or blow it up with drone guided missiles, assault isn't one of their main concerns. (apart from staying out of it)

Also, the pulse rifle has better range than a bolter. this makes it a better gun even if it had the same strength, and the ammunition is less bulky. Bolters are also rare, difficult to maintain weapons issued only to shock troops. The tau issue pulse rifles to second line alien auxillaries. A weapon that can explosively dissassemble a guardsman outside the guardsmans effective response range with his own rifle.

Firaxin
13-01-2008, 00:24
Bolt weapons are not rare at all.

ynkvyzytor
13-01-2008, 00:42
Again, this is a question of doctrine rather than technology, as Tau do not employ special or heavy weapons in their basic infantry squads. The Tau may or may not be able to develop pistol sized plasma weapons, but the fact that haven't doesn't mean they can't.

I absolutely agree with that they may or may not be able to produce plasma pistol but if you respond at every exampe of imperial technology that is better than tau, with sentence it doesnt fit to their doctrine, I would respond to every exampe of tau technology that is superior to imperial, with sentence they could deveplov it but theirs religious believes dont allow them to do it (I hope you all agree to that if admech droped their religious belives and started created new technology, they would have level of technology significantly better than tau). The fact is simple imperium has pistol sized plasma weapons, tau dont.




Looking at the size of a plasma rifle/fusion gun, or burst cannon, the only thing stopping the tau using squad based special and heavy weapons is doctrine. The tau could also choose to produce a plasma pistol, but choose not to because a plasma pistol is useful only to dedicated assault troops going up against hard targets. Considering that when the tau find a hard target they tend to accelerate a chunk of high speed metal through it or blow it up with drone guided missiles, assault isn't one of their main concerns. (apart from staying out of it)

From what I remember tau plasma rifle on battlesuits was lot larger than plasmagun carried by IG and IG plasmagun is considerably stronger. So Tau could only create plasma weapon that is larger AND weaker than imperial counterpart its only advantage is that it doesnt overheat which is considerable problem only in tabletob. In fluff plasmaguns generaly dont overheat if you arent too trigger happy



Also, the pulse rifle has better range than a bolter. this makes it a better gun even if it had the same strength, and the ammunition is less bulky. Bolters are also rare, difficult to maintain weapons issued only to shock troops. The tau issue pulse rifles to second line alien auxillaries. A weapon that can explosively dissassemble a guardsman outside the guardsmans effective response range with his own rifle.

Pulse rifle is lot weaker than bolter it is comparable to hellgun (pulse rifle is semiauto only. Single shot from it is stronger than that from hellgun, but hellgun has advantage of autofire) and yes it has grater range than hellgun and bolter but question is how accurate fire warriors are at that range (lasgun has range about 1 kilometer so at that range that pulse rifle has over lasgun fire warriors probably would be pretty inacurate). more important diference than range would be optics which tau has superior than IG.

Eetion
13-01-2008, 00:55
Bolt weapons are not rare at all.

Yes they are, despite the availability to SM forces, the bolter is relatively rare (although still a considerable number), when compared to the vast number of lasguns and autoguns.

Johnnyfrej
13-01-2008, 04:53
At its height Impreial technology was undoubtably higher than Tau tech is now, however the Imperium has fallen a long way from its golden age and will continue to loose technology for the forseeable future until the AdMech get a grip.
QFT. I believe those cogboy bastards are holding out on us! For all we know, the Mechs are fully capable of creating mass produced tech that could rival that of the eldar like we did during the Great Crusade. I think the cogboys just want to keep the info to themselves because if some random mech or engineer on some backwater planet found a crashed jetbike or something he could make more copies and create a rival company to guild for the Mechanicus to compete with.

Brother Siccarius
13-01-2008, 07:33
Which brings us to the real advantage that the Tau have over the Imperium. The Tau are willing to share their technology. Due to their communal commercialism and tech-friendly alliances they have a greater propensity to have their best tech more widespread. They'll even share it with allied peoples and trading partners. Because of this, their warriors really are better equipped than the majority of the Imperials.

The army lists aren't that good a representation of the fluff, and only about %10 of the Imperial guard are as well equiped as those in the IG codex (20 plasma and 15 Lascannons an army, hah!). However, the Tau are almost always shown as being extreemely well equiped (main exception that proves the rule is Farsight).

As to dropping the Tau onto the battlefield, they prefer to drop them in their grav vehicles and aircraft. Why drop hundreds of men with parachutes when you can simply armor their travel to the ground with tanks and missiles?

T_55
13-01-2008, 08:06
The imperium shares its technology with its people, which number billions upon billions more then the tau and their allied races put together, what more do you want when everyone else either looks down at them as 'primitive' or abuses their technology? 10% is also greatly exaggerated, mind telling me where you got your figures from as well as your definition of well equipped or do you mean well supplied?

GodofWarTx
13-01-2008, 09:10
The quick refutation is that the Tau can build and repair all their equipment flawlessly, whereas the Imperium hasn't got a damned clue how to replace a lot of it's more advanced gear. I suppose a good example of this is the jump packs versus battlesuits. Imperial Jump Packs are used by a small and incredibly elite percentage of it's armed forces, and even then on a limited basis. The Tau, on the other hand, use Jump systems extensively on their heavy infantry and scout battlesuits as a fully integrated part of their military apparatus. The Tau don't neccesarily outstrip the Empire in sheer technological badassedness, but they have better utilization and are much more adaptable in their technology.

Going back to my point, i would say that the Imperium have better utilization if their technology, considering they have to serve expodentially larger population base. Remember, there are roughly as many Tau in the galaxy as their are humans on Necromunda. Judging by humanities suvival with such "primitive" defense technology, their system works rather well, not to say the Tau dont have a rather good grasp of technology. I would say though that the average Earth Caste specialist knows about as much about technology as a Techpriest or Enginseer, or perhaps an advantage to the Earth Caste. However, at the upper echoelons (spelling?) of scientific knowledge, the higher members of the Adeptus Mechanicus have a frightening knowledge and control of technology. The technology just locked away on Mars as a giant stack of trump cards has often been alluded to. Neutron Blasters on scuttling giant machines has been one thing i can think of. The skittarri im sure are equipped probably to Fire Warrior standards, and i would safely say that there are more skitarrii under arms than their are Tau alive, Fire Caste or not.


I thought the Imperium couldn't clone?
As far as i remember, they do, but thats a very good question. I mean, space marine geneseed is artificially grown, and the Afrael Strain of troopers are clone troopers, though there was some bad consequences of messing with fate/kharma on that one.

Bolt weapons are not rare at all.

I agree. They are "rare" in the grand scheme of things on the intergalactic scale, which is staggering, but considering that its availible to sisters of battle, private citizens, the ministorium, the Imperial Guard, marines, the inquisition, the mechanicus, their are several billion floating around to supply a galaxy of countless trillions of humans. I would say a Tau Pulse rifle is wildly rare in comparison in terms of availibility.

Sekhmet
13-01-2008, 09:12
QFT. I believe those cogboy bastards are holding out on us! For all we know, the Mechs are fully capable of creating mass produced tech that could rival that of the eldar like we did during the Great Crusade. I think the cogboys just want to keep the info to themselves because if some random mech or engineer on some backwater planet found a crashed jetbike or something he could make more copies and create a rival company to guild for the Mechanicus to compete with.

The Imperium has never rivaled the Eldar's tech. Not now, not in the Crusades (which was lower tech than we have now), and not in the Dark Ages (still slightly inferior to post-fall Eldar, who themselves are inferior, technology wise, to pre-fall Eldar).

stormblade
13-01-2008, 10:24
Humanity has more advanced genetic studies and implants than the Eldar.(at least it seems so)

azimaith
13-01-2008, 10:25
I dunno if thats true or not. Possibly, I don't think the eldar have ever really looked toward modifying their bodies in that fashion. I don't think i've even seen wraithbone augmetics.

ynkvyzytor
13-01-2008, 11:26
Thing with rarity of bolter is not only they are expensive but lasgun is overal better weapon. I dont know about you but i would certainly have rather lasgun than bolter if I was rank and file Imperial Guardsman.

Lasgun is more reliable than bolter has enough stoping power against enemies that guardsmen commonly encounter (fights against enemies with power armor or enemies that are too tough to be effeciently harmed by lasgun is extremly rare most Imperial guards didnt see SM, CSM, Eladar Aspect Warrior, Tau Battlesuit or other extremly armored foes their entire life much less have to kill them with lasguns).

Acording to munitorium manual lasgun has 150 shots in power cell(lasgun has different power setting and patterns so actual number of shots can be different in oher lasguns)
Bolter has 30 bolts in magazine which is considerably bigger.For standard troops this would be huge difference.

Even IF imperium could equip all their troops with bolters they wouldnt.

Bolter is usefull for marines which commonly engage enemies that would be hard to kill with lasgun and there is additional benefit of fear effect that bolter has because death by bolter shell is quite messy. It somewhat usefull for sergants if enemy that would reqire bolter to kill would show up and sergants are generaly better shots and morale than common gurdsman so their ammo consumption is lesser. Commissars uses them because someone standing at your back that will shoot you if you retreat with is more scarier if he has big gun and then generaly commissars are good shots. Why sisters of battle uses bolters i have no idea because I dont have that much knowlege about way they fight and enemies they engage

Eetion
13-01-2008, 11:43
Vespid have Neutron Blasters, the Tau dont need a mechanical monstrosity to make use of them.
Also Earth Caste Engineers far exceed the mechanicum adepts, they fully understand their area of expertise, not messed around with superstition and obscure actions. While your probably right on the upper echelons of the Mechanicum... The Earth Caste win for innovation.

Getz
13-01-2008, 12:37
I absolutely agree with that they may or may not be able to produce plasma pistol but if you respond at every exampe of imperial technology that is better than tau, with sentence it doesnt fit to their doctrine, I would respond to every exampe of tau technology that is superior to imperial, with sentence they could deveplov it but theirs religious believes dont allow them to do it (I hope you all agree to that if admech droped their religious belives and started created new technology, they would have level of technology significantly better than tau). The fact is simple imperium has pistol sized plasma weapons, tau dont.

You're completely missing the point. Pointing out technologies that are adsent from the Tau armoury is all well and good, but when such technologies are absent because the Tau have no need for them it doesn't tell us anything about their technological capabilities, only about their requirements.

It's rather like claiming that the Allies didn't have the technology to build Heavy tanks during WWII because they never fielded anything as big as a Tiger II - well, as it happens they did create a number of comparable designs but never mass produced them because they didn't see the need for them.


From what I remember tau plasma rifle on battlesuits was lot larger than plasmagun carried by IG and IG plasmagun is considerably stronger. So Tau could only create plasma weapon that is larger AND weaker than imperial counterpart its only advantage is that it doesnt overheat which is considerable problem only in tabletob. In fluff plasmaguns generaly dont overheat if you arent too trigger happy

The Plasma gun model for Crisis Suits is scaled to the model. Burst cannons come in a variety of sizes depending on whether they're intended to be mounted on a Stealth suit, Crisis Suit of Tank. There's no reason to assume that the Plasma Rifle represents the smallest that Tau Plasma Technology gets.


Pulse rifle is lot weaker than bolter it is comparable to hellgun (pulse rifle is semiauto only. Single shot from it is stronger than that from hellgun, but hellgun has advantage of autofire) and yes it has grater range than hellgun and bolter but question is how accurate fire warriors are at that range (lasgun has range about 1 kilometer so at that range that pulse rifle has over lasgun fire warriors probably would be pretty inacurate). more important diference than range would be optics which tau has superior than IG.

And here you go again stating your opinion about pulse rifles as fact. Until such time as you're prepared to provide something more substansive as proof you might as well shut up. Claim that a S3 weapon is equal to and an S4 weapon is more powerful than an S5 weapon is plain stupid. The piece of fuff you've latched on to is wrong and you are wrong. End of debate.

ynkvyzytor
13-01-2008, 13:08
You're completely missing the point. Pointing out technologies that are adsent from the Tau armoury is all well and good, but when such technologies are absent because the Tau have no need for them it doesn't tell us anything about their technological capabilities, only about their requirements.

Problem is you could say that about any technology - why tau doesnt have wraithbone - because they dont need it - why tau doesnt have laser weapons - because they dont need it - why tau doesnt have high ranged balistic cannons (like basilisk) - because they dont need it. There insnt important IF tau have capabilities to create plasma pistol or not. Imperium has capabilities to create lots of stuff if adeptus mechanicus didnt killed everyone who tried to create something new. Fact is they simply dont have that technology reason may or may not be that they are incapable of creating it but it isnt important important is they dont have that technology. If we (like all people on earth) pooled large sums of money to research of Railguns or Energy cannons we would have them (ok we already have but they are not usefull in combat).





The Plasma gun model for Crisis Suits is scaled to the model. Burst cannons come in a variety of sizes depending on whether they're intended to be mounted on a Stealth suit, Crisis Suit of Tank. There's no reason to assume that the Plasma Rifle represents the smallest that Tau Plasma Technology gets.

Do you realy think that stealtsuit burst cannon and vehicle burst cannon (if it is larger) are same strenght? In game rules yes they are, because it would complicate game if they werent. But Vehicle burst cannon would be probably stronger. Plasma rifle mounted on Battlesuit that is lot bigger than plasmagun caried by IG and it is weaker if tau would scale down that plasma rifle to be carried by fire warrior it would be LOT weaker than that carried by IG.




And here you go again stating your opinion about pulse rifles as fact. Until such time as you're prepared to provide something more substansive as proof you might as well shut up. Claim that a S3 weapon is equal to and an S4 weapon is more powerful than an S5 weapon is plain stupid. The piece of fuff you've latched on to is wrong and you are wrong. End of debate.

No rules are wrong because they are meant to be balanced and interesting to play. Pulse rifle is lot weaker than bolter in lots of novels killteam is only that I remember. Even in inquisitor rules pulse pistol is lot weaker than bolt pistol. Rules are wrong(actualy they arent wrong by balance and game standpoint but by comparable strenght of weapons to background) and you are wrong. End of debate

Getz
13-01-2008, 13:40
So your entire argument is that a couple of books written by the BL - who are notorious for getting the basics completely wrong - trump the Official background and rules? Give up sunshine, you're beginning to look desperate.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about but have become so determined to "win" the debate you're that you're repeating yourself in an ever more agressive tone despite the fact I have already pointed out the flaws in your arguments. Well, I'll tell you what - I've run out of patience and trying to discuss this with you is clearly pointless so if it makes you feel any better, congratulations, you win the internet.

Lord Zarkov
13-01-2008, 14:07
Even in Inquisitor, while pulse pistols are weaker than bolt pistols (and on par with autopistols), the rules for pulse rifles and carbines (apparently from Inquisitor Conspiracies) have them doing 3D6+5 Damage (8-23, mean 15.5) compared to the boltgun's 2D10+4 (6-24, mean 15) so about on par. However while the boltgun only fires 1-2 shots the pulse rifle fires 2-3 and the carbine fires 3-4 on semi and 8 on full auto. (which looking at the way shuriken weapons have been done would probably equate to S5 in 40K)

Looking at the system in Inquisitor though (as well as models in 40K) though it appears (IMO) that the Tau cen get a fair bit of strength and prefer a high rate of fire, but have problems minitureising things without comparitively large drops in power.

ynkvyzytor
13-01-2008, 14:18
So your entire argument is that a couple of books written by the BL - who are notorious for getting the basics completely wrong - trump the Official background and rules? Give up sunshine, you're beginning to look desperate.

And where in official background (sorry to say but bl books are actualy official background dont know what you consider it) is written that pulse rifle is stronger than bolter (rules are NOT background)

And if you think that in codexes arent "basic completely wrong" you are wrong .There is that thing if in two codexes are two things completely different it is blamed on different point of view from from the races to which codexes belong and that they are CODEXES and they couldnt be possibly mistaken.

And BL books from right autors are generaly quite precise in background (there are exceptions like autors like C.S. Goto).



You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about but have become so determined to "win" the debate you're that you're repeating yourself in an ever more agressive tone despite the fact I have already pointed out the flaws in your arguments. Well, I'll tell you what - I've run out of patience and trying to discuss this with you is clearly pointless so if it makes you feel any better, congratulations, you win the internet.

Yeah I love people saying congratulations you win the internet (which means I am right and you are wrong) and I've run out of patience (which means I have to had last word dont try to say anything more on this subject). If you realy run out of patience and dont wished to discuss anymore you wouldnt write this post. Only meaning of your post is to reinforce your arguments by mocking anyone who disagrees.

Getz
13-01-2008, 14:52
I shouldn't be doing this, but I couldn't let this one past....


And where in official background (sorry to say but bl books are actualy official background dont know what you consider it) is written that pulse rifle is stronger than bolter (rules are NOT background)

What about that Caphias Caine novel where rebels killed by pulse fire are described as having wounds akin to those inflicted by Imperial Plasma Weapons? Or does that not count because it doesn't support your argument?


Yeah I love people saying congratulations you win the internet (which means I am right and you are wrong) and I've run out of patience (which means I have to had last word dont try to say anything more on this subject). If you realy run out of patience and dont wished to discuss anymore you wouldnt write this post. Only meaning of your post is to reinforce your arguments by mocking anyone who disagrees.

I meant exactly what I said, that debating with you is clearly pointless. As it happens, by bugging out I am giving you the last word, but you know what - I just don't care. You have brought nothing new to this discussion and if you aren't able to see the flaws in your logic and reasoning, I have no further desire to attempt to point them out to you.

In fact, even continuing this post is clearly counterproductive, so well done Internet Warrior, I predict a long and happy career for you here on Warseer.

stormblade
13-01-2008, 15:54
I dunno if thats true or not. Possibly, I don't think the eldar have ever really looked toward modifying their bodies in that fashion. I don't think i've even seen wraithbone augmetics.

Well, perhaps Eldar bodies couldn't be augmented because they would react badly to any kind of implant.

My point was that in some scientific areas Imperium is the best in some others it is not.

ynkvyzytor
13-01-2008, 16:01
So your entire argument is that a couple of books written by the BL - who are notorious for getting the basics completely wrong - trump the Official background and rules? Give up sunshine, you're beginning to look desperate.

What about that Caphias Caine novel where rebels killed by pulse fire are described as having wounds akin to those inflicted by Imperial Plasma Weapons? Or does that not count because it doesn't support your argument?

So Killteam novel isnt official background but Ciphias Cain novels are? interesting double standards.

And my argument that in killteam novel pulse rifles are weaker than bolters is thrumped by your argument that in Ciphias Cain novels are Pulse Rifles stronger. How interesting.

Inkvizitor fluff is still valid? If yes imperial plasma weapons still have two setings in lower plasma pistol has lower damage than bolter(This is only game rules if someone posts fluff example I wouldnt argue about that) And there is question if that wounds looked as inflicted by plasma weapons(which they were) Or they were as several like plasmagun would inflict(which they arent because plasma guns are described to vaporise enemy torso) So question is if that comparsion wasnt only to appereance of wounds caused by plasma weapons on lower settings. by describibg that wounds



The gunner's head vaporized and he pitched forwards...
Hotshot round vaporizing a head.

If I am not mistaken Lagun with hotshot pack is close to hellgun in power.
And in this example of hotshot lasguns power than Pulse Rifles in that example from ciphias cain novel

Johnnyfrej
13-01-2008, 16:26
If I am not mistaken Lagun with hotshot pack is close to hellgun in power.
And in this example of hotshot lasguns power than Pulse Rifles in that example from ciphias cain novel
The Hellgun does have the stength equivalent too a Lasgun, but has better AP. They require the backpack powercell because of the increased energy required for the full auto fire and better armor piercing capabilities. They have better AP because their beams are focused with improved heavy-duty lenses. On a side note there is also an option to add an underslung grenade launcher similar to modern day earth rifles.

ynkvyzytor
13-01-2008, 17:44
The Hellgun does have the stength equivalent too a Lasgun, but has better AP. They require the backpack powercell because of the increased energy required for the full auto fire and better armor piercing capabilities. They have better AP because their beams are focused with improved heavy-duty lenses. On a side note there is also an option to add an underslung grenade launcher similar to modern day earth rifles.

This is game rules (and in this case rules arent wrong but only too undetailed for example if rules were other scale lasgun could have str4 hellgun 6 a and bolter 10 but because there cannot be that much diference betwen weapons because of scale of tt statistic), fluffwise hellgun is stronger and because of that it shoots through armor better. I dont know where you get that info about better focusing and if you remember that please post it I would be interested there is not much info about hellguns.

Lagun is fully capable of full auto fire (about 5.7 rounds per second from source I dont remember and about 9 rounds per second from munitorium manual) Hellgun has backpack battery because it consumes considerably more energy then lasgun and with standard magazine they would be able to make only few shots.

And with that underslug gl you meant that only hellgun can have it or lasgun and hellgun can have it?

five01st
13-01-2008, 19:03
I haven't seen anyone on this thread express much beyond the Tau weaponry. Considering the other topics of bioengineering (bionics), teleportation/warp travel/navigation, Anti-Tank weaponry, and Battlesuit vs Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

I have only seen one mention to bioengineering, or bionics as I seem to understand Rich's meaning, is Commander O'Shovah in the old Tau Codex under his Profile, a quote on page 50 reads "...he has lived for at least three centuries... It may be that another has taken up his mantle, or that the real Commander is extending his lifespan though some technological process." Suggesting only the possibility of bionics.

The seemingly lesser Tau technology in the fields of Warp Travel and navigation is reflected in their genealogical structure where it is noted that the Tau lacked a "Navigator gene" and their complete lack of psychic power, resulting in a sketchy understanding of the Warp and the fear of what lies beyond.

Perhaps to prove at least the brilliance of the Tau Earth Caste members in charge of weaponry design, it would be best to look at the Anti-Tank weaponry. The Imperium's Anti-Tank weapons consists of mainly lascannons for the SM and ordinance shells for the IG. A lascannon delivers a tightly focused shot of energy which is transfered to a single point. The energy is then transfered to the target generally causing enough energy transfer to cause vaporization of any substance, causing the piercing damage, though the thickness of armor could then stop a hull breach as the weapon's energy is dispersed upon contact, likely creating a pool of molten metal at the target rather than a small hole as though the shot "drilled" thought the armor. But this is only possible with massive amounts of armor, present on tanks such as the Land Raider and also the reason why Terminators attain a 5+ invulnerable save.
The Imperial Guard however mostly rely on the Battlecannon and the Earthshaker (at least this is my AT weaponry for my IG army). Both weapons are ordinance weapons and deliver their power in their explosions. The actual shot itself is large, large enough that when fired, the round has enough kinetic energy to transfer this to the target and potentially penetrate armor, though the fact that the shot is large slightly lessens the chance of complete penetration as energy is transfered over a larger area. The actual penetration does not come from the explosion which is represented by halving the strength of the weapon when the central circle is not directly on the vehicle.
The Tau, however, employ the Railgun which uses a solid shot accelerated to hypervelocity. This means that the kinetic energy is transfered to a small point and is more able to pierce though armor and because the shot is chemically bonded to itself (the lascannon only shoots photons) the transfer of energy is not dispersed as much as its Imperial equivalents, and thus the AP1 rating.

The Adeptus Astartes partially structures itself around the ability to create an insertion, as shown in their Starships, Land Raiders, and Terminators. The ability to force a "wedge" into enemy territory and deploy forces in the midst while protecting their warriors from harm has always been an available option. This is why as Tactical Dreadnought Squadrons, they have the flexibility to stand back and support or direct an assault. This is just how they were developed, structured and trained.
However, on the Tau, the values of mobility, flexibility, and bringing full weapons to bear on a single target have always been stressed. This is why in their most vaunted technological progress is in part represented by the Battlesuits. The choices available to a Battlesuit squad and the overall commander allows for precisely outfitting each squad to fit in their grand master plan, while allowing the maneuverability to position each squad as needed when the battlefield itself changes, unlike Terminator squads, which must be placed in a part of the battlefield where they will be able to make the most difference.
To argue that either the Battlesuit or the Terminator is a greater demonstration of technology is highly arguable, but you have to consider that both were structured to be an integral part of how each army structured itself to the roles. The point being that both have very different roles, and for someone to say that one is better at their own role than the other is at their role, is [insert offensive word of your preference].

Also as a final note, I do not see the Imperials developing "Smart" weaponry like the Tau's Seeker Missiles or the Smart Missiles, both of which do not require line of sight.

Firaxin
13-01-2008, 19:22
The imperials have 'smart' bullets, which are much smaller than any missile. And not only do they guide themselves to the target (even turning around and coming back if they miss), but after penetrating the target they will turn around and penetrate again, and again, and again, until it's energy is spent. Because of their complex design they are not produced at a very high rate, so you tend to only see Inquisitors and other powerful individuals weilding these.

ChrisAsmadi
13-01-2008, 19:25
Also as a final note, I do not see the Imperials developing "Smart" weaponry like the Tau's Seeker Missiles or the Smart Missiles, both of which do not require line of sight.

Hunter-killers?


Digital weapons are ring sized and they contain lasgun or needler (usualy one-shot but i belive there was version with more shots)

Sorry, but Digital Weapons aren't made by the Imperium. They, like C'Tan Phase Blades, are alien tech utilized by the Imperium. They're made by the Jokaero.

Firaxin
13-01-2008, 19:33
Sorry, but Digital Weapons aren't made by the Imperium. They, like C'Tan Phase Blades, are alien tech utilized by the Imperium. They're made by the Jokaero.

Reverse Engineering is a technological skill. I'm guessing the digital weapons aren't made by the Jokaero because otherwise they would have Jokaero weapons in them, not lasguns or needlers.
For C'Tan Phase Blades, these too are reverse engineered (I believe the weapon the Soul Stealers are trying to reclaim for several books was made by the Imperium long ago in the Dark Age of Technology).

GodofWarTx
13-01-2008, 21:03
Vespid have Neutron Blasters, the Tau dont need a mechanical monstrosity to make use of them.
Also Earth Caste Engineers far exceed the mechanicum adepts, they fully understand their area of expertise, not messed around with superstition and obscure actions. While your probably right on the upper echelons of the Mechanicum... The Earth Caste win for innovation.

Possibly, but you have to balance out the fact that Earth Caste engineers are completely ignorant of the dangers of the warp when constructing and designing their technology, while the Techpriests bless their creations and create designs that are resistant to corruption. As far as the neutron blasters, the Tau also need the unique biology of the Vespid to field the guns, and it is a huge difference in scale as the imperial versions are extremely large and devastating weapons systems rather than small arms.


Hunter-killers?



Sorry, but Digital Weapons aren't made by the Imperium. They, like C'Tan Phase Blades, are alien tech utilized by the Imperium. They're made by the Jokaero.


Reverse Engineering is a technological skill. I'm guessing the digital weapons aren't made by the Jokaero because otherwise they would have Jokaero weapons in them, not lasguns or needlers.
For C'Tan Phase Blades, these too are reverse engineered (I believe the weapon the Soul Stealers are trying to reclaim for several books was made by the Imperium long ago in the Dark Age of Technology).

Good points, the Tau reverse engineered a lot of their technology from the ship that crashed in their system, especially interstellar travel methods.

legio mortis
13-01-2008, 21:46
Also as a final note, I do not see the Imperials developing "Smart" weaponry like the Tau's Seeker Missiles or the Smart Missiles, both of which do not require line of sight.
Hunter Killers, most Guard missile weapons, the Hellstrike missile, the Skystrike missile, the Lance missile, the Flail missile, smart bombs, and torpedoes all prove that the Imperium has smart weaponry.

Dyrnwyn
13-01-2008, 22:06
Heavy destroyer cannon is in fluff described to punch through both sides of landrider without larger power loss at other end. In game Rules it has like str 9
ap 2.
Railgun can Shoot trough Leman russ but not so easilly and shootingh through Russ is easier than land rider because land rider is bigger and heavier armored.
In game Rules it has str 10 ap 1.
I see you're ignoring the quotes from guardsmen about the railgun.

"Our tanks were useless. As soon as we broke cover their battlesuits' heavy guns were locked on to us. I swear it was as if they had someone nearby aiming for them before they shot. And when they did shoot... Emperor's mercy! Their guns punched through our armor like it was paper. all I could see was trails of fire where their projectiles had ignited the air." - Codex: Tau

"One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after having been hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank - one the projectile's entry point, the other it's exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked out through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty meters from the wreck." - Codex: Tau Empire

The difference being that in the Necron codex, there are static images being evaluated by a member of the Admech, but Tau weapons are evaluated via testimonials from Guardsmen. Just because the Guardsmen don't gush about the technical details doesn't mean that the railgun isn't good. The Railgun may very well be a better anti-tank gun, because remember, gauss weapons are not really weapons, but essentially Necron harvesting equipment. The railgun may be better than the Ďheavy gauss cannoní but the heavy gauss is still the Necron equivalent of a combine.


Background is inconsistent but not as you want it to make. Where is aspect warrior better than spacemarin in anything except his own speciality? And tactics and strategy have effect in battle too what if victories of some races on books were because tactics no because superior weapons.
Lasguns are capabel of hurting PAed SM in all books that I read and in no books that I read are capable to hurting PAed SM exceptionaly easy.
This bacground incostistence is almost in every sci-fi so warhammer isnt exception.
There is inconsistency in any body of fiction put together by multiple authors over a long spread of time. However, I donít see quite as much inconsistency in say, Star Wars novels or Battletech novels as I do in 40k novels. This is because other novels based on sci-fi universes have to hold to a canon that is the standard for what has and can happen in that universe. Black Library has come out and said that there is no official canon for 40k and all novels are equally valid. Therefore Gotoís assertion that Falcons have view slits and can brought down by children stuffing rocks in gun barrels is just as valid as Kill Teamís weak pulse weapons.


]Even if background is incostistent its still better than rules that are made to be balanced not to be precise to background. But in most weapon comparsion I agree that rules are quite precise but there are some horibly under and overstated weapons and units. For example pulse rifle is imho MOST overstated weapon in warhammer rules, Necron weapons on other hand are HORIBLY understated. Grey Knights are described in fluff to be on par with sm librarians but stat wise they are lot weaker.
Gauss is understated because Gauss arenít real Necron weapons. Gauss Ďweaponsí are really harvesting equipment for feeding the Cítan. When you look at the fact that a Necron Ďwarriorí is essentially a farmer with a hoe to the Necrons, you realize how scary actual Necron weapons must be.


So Killteam novel isnt official background but Ciphias Cain novels are? interesting double standards.
No, he's just pointing out that basing your argument on Black Library novels is a poor backing, because different BL novels give contradictory accounts on the effects and abilities of equipment and troops. Something that has been pointed out to you multiple times and you continue to ignore. Black Library has also stated that there is no official canon, and that every novel is valid, despite their huge differences. That doesn't show a lack of internal consistency to you?


Inkvizitor fluff is still valid? If yes imperial plasma weapons still have two setings in lower plasma pistol has lower damage than bolter(This is only game rules if someone posts fluff example I wouldnt argue about that) And there is question if that wounds looked as inflicted by plasma weapons(which they were) Or they were as several like plasmagun would inflict(which they arent because plasma guns are described to vaporise enemy torso) So question is if that comparsion wasnt only to appereance of wounds caused by plasma weapons on lower settings. by describibg that wounds
Inquisitor also does not provide lasguns or hellguns with the power you attribute to them. You canít vaporize a head, with either weapon, unless a person is unhelmeted and has an extremely low base Toughness. Hellguns are not much more powerful than lasguns in Inquisitor, and instead have a constant recharge rate from the power pack, rather than a set number of shots per charge. Plasma in Inquisitor still does damage in excess of bolters, and the only 'low powered' setting is sustained fire, which does about the same as a bolter if it's a plasma pistol, and more than bolters if it's either other plasma gun.

In any case, I think youíre losing sight of the real question in your pro-Imperial, anti-Tau mindset. Looking at most of the background, itís not that Tau have overall better technology. Imperial technology does surpass Tau tech on numerous fronts. Itís that Tau have a better standard of tech, while the Imperiumís technological level varies wildly from world to world; on one, grav cars might be pretty common, on another, people walk or ride horses because wheels are forbidden and they donít have anti-grav tech. On the other hand, Tau septs worlds generally have comparable levels of civilian tech that are comparable to the more advanced Imperial worlds, with whisper-quiet grav trains and clean cities. The Tau also understand their technology, so they are slowly improving what they have. In fact, in the codex thereís evidence that Tau agricultural and construction equipment is superior, as those are items that keep cropping up in Imperial worlds in trade range of the Tau Empire.

ynkvyzytor
14-01-2008, 00:02
I see you're ignoring the quotes from guardsmen about the railgun.

"Our tanks were useless. As soon as we broke cover their battlesuits' heavy guns were locked on to us. I swear it was as if they had someone nearby aiming for them before they shot. And when they did shoot... Emperor's mercy! Their guns punched through our armor like it was paper. all I could see was trails of fire where their projectiles had ignited the air." - Codex: Tau

"One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after having been hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank - one the projectile's entry point, the other it's exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked out through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty meters from the wreck." - Codex: Tau Empire


The difference being that in the Necron codex, there are static images being evaluated by a member of the Admech, but Tau weapons are evaluated via testimonials from Guardsmen. Just because the Guardsmen don't gush about the technical details doesn't mean that the railgun isn't good. The Railgun may very well be a better anti-tank gun, because remember, gauss weapons are not really weapons, but essentially Necron harvesting equipment. The railgun may be better than the ‘heavy gauss cannon’ but the heavy gauss is still the Necron equivalent of a combine.
And testimonials of people which unit was destroy by totaly new and powerful weapons and they live in imperium that doesnt look kindly at failure are more valid that scientific analysis why? Railgun is more powerfull that almost all tank (not superheavy tank) mounted imperial weapons that I admit but necron weapons are still lot stronger.
On side note was that necron gauss harvesting thing really proven I always belived it was only a thery?



There is inconsistency in any body of fiction put together by multiple authors over a long spread of time. However, I don’t see quite as much inconsistency in say, Star Wars novels or Battletech novels as I do in 40k novels. This is because other novels based on sci-fi universes have to hold to a canon that is the standard for what has and can happen in that universe. Black Library has come out and said that there is no official canon for 40k and all novels are equally valid. Therefore Goto’s assertion that Falcons have view slits and can brought down by children stuffing rocks in gun barrels is just as valid as Kill Team’s weak pulse weapons.

Dont know about battletech but starwars are probably even more contradictonary than warhammer. And I am not even starting with starcraft novels.

And by that officialy yes theirs validity is same but there is that thing that comunities formed around universes like starwars or warhammer usualy know validity of autors and for background purposes use only novels from autors that have good enough grasp on background.

On the other hand Codexes like insanly glorify the army that is presented in it and they usualy indirectly say: This army is best army in warhammer.




No, he's just pointing out that basing your argument on Black Library novels is a poor backing, because different BL novels give contradictory accounts on the effects and abilities of equipment and troops. Something that has been pointed out to you multiple times and you continue to ignore. Black Library has also stated that there is no official canon, and that every novel is valid, despite their huge differences. That doesn't show a lack of internal consistency to you?

No he wasnt, he said that my novel examples have much lesser weight than his official background and rule examples. And when I was asking him what was his Official background example, he said that it is novel.



Inquisitor also does not provide lasguns or hellguns with the power you attribute to them. You can’t vaporize a head, with either weapon, unless a person is unhelmeted and has an extremely low base Toughness. Hellguns are not much more powerful than lasguns in Inquisitor, and instead have a constant recharge rate from the power pack, rather than a set number of shots per charge. Plasma in Inquisitor still does damage in excess of bolters, and the only 'low powered' setting is sustained fire, which does about the same as a bolter if it's a plasma pistol, and more than bolters if it's either other plasma gun.

This Inquisitor fluff validity question was only to prevent starting debate about: "Have plasmagun two power settings or not"

There is hellgun in inquisitor? i was searching for it and i didnt find it. Could you tell me where, maybe it isnt in that base rulebook that I searched or maybe I have old version.



In any case, I think you’re losing sight of the real question in your pro-Imperial, anti-Tau mindset. Looking at most of the background, it’s not that Tau have overall better technology. Imperial technology does surpass Tau tech on numerous fronts. It’s that Tau have a better standard of tech, while the Imperium’s technological level varies wildly from world to world; on one, grav cars might be pretty common, on another, people walk or ride horses because wheels are forbidden and they don’t have anti-grav tech. On the other hand, Tau septs worlds generally have comparable levels of civilian tech that are comparable to the more advanced Imperial worlds, with whisper-quiet grav trains and clean cities. The Tau also understand their technology, so they are slowly improving what they have. In fact, in the codex there’s evidence that Tau agricultural and construction equipment is superior, as those are items that keep cropping up in Imperial worlds in trade range of the Tau Empire.

I absolutely agree with it (of course with exception of that first sentence)

But this was written in this thread several times and I think that most of people in this tread agress with this. So I dont think that I am losing sight of real question because that question has been already answered. Which hasnt been answered are various individual technologies.

Brother Siccarius
14-01-2008, 00:28
The imperium shares its technology with its people, which number billions upon billions more then the tau and their allied races put together, what more do you want when everyone else either looks down at them as 'primitive' or abuses their technology? 10% is also greatly exaggerated, mind telling me where you got your figures from as well as your definition of well equipped or do you mean well supplied?

The figure is made up on the fly, I admit that, but it doesn't make it any less close to the truth.

Plasma weapons, Lascannons, and Bolt weapons are not widespread like they are in the army lists. The main weapon used by infantry Guard in the fluff has always been the missile launcher, not the lascannon*. Plasma Weaponry has always been represented in the fluff as being reserved for the elite because of it's scarcity. Bolt Weapons is the closest they got right to the fluff in the army list (not that that's good or bad) by reserving it for the chain of command, but even then you rarely see someone wielding a bolt weapon in the guard unless they're a person of power, prestige or significant pull.

They aren't primitive by any means, they have plasma technology! They just baby their tech without trying to improve it that quickly. They also have the disadvantage of their tech being hoarded by a cult that essentially uses it as currency.

The Tech Priests of Mars can build terminator armor, power armor, plasma weaponry, bolt weaponry, baneblades, titans, battle cruisers, heck I wouldn't put the Deathstar past their abilities, but they just don't care to do it. We know they can because of the fact that they've done it plenty of times after the Heresy, and none of those things are the lost artifact technology of the Dark Age.

About the only people they'll give to are the Marines, who they hire to protect their space, and the inquisitors, who scare the every loving Metal-Jesus out of them. To the munitorium they give the base weaponry and technology of their arsenal. To the Imperial planets, they give nothing from their forgeworlds, instead controlling factories on planets which build the needed machines.

The fighting people of the Imperium are well supplied, but I wouldn't define them as well equipped by the standards of what they could have. Based solely on the Skitarii that the Mechanicus can muster, create, train, and equip, what the Guard has is sticks and stones.


*No, I'm not just pulling this from the GG series, Ciaphas Cain, the Imperial Background books (Munitorium Manual, and Uplifting Primer), and others represent the main tank killing weaponry of Imperial Guard Infantry as the Missile Launcher.

Getz
14-01-2008, 01:13
No he wasnt, he said that my novel examples have much lesser weight than his official background and rule examples. And when I was asking him what was his Official background example, he said that it is novel.

<Sigh> Way to go misrepresenting me.

No, Dyrnwyn was right. I was pointing out to you that the BL novels are wildy inconsistant and that for any source in a BL novel you care to mention, I can probably find another one that contradicts it. The only consistant source of information about the game world are the rules.

legio mortis
14-01-2008, 02:41
<Sigh> Way to go misrepresenting me.

No, Dyrnwyn was right. I was pointing out to you that the BL novels are wildy inconsistant and that for any source in a BL novel you care to mention, I can probably find another one that contradicts it. The only consistant source of information about the game world are the rules.
The rules are great for a general overview, but they are written for balance, not fluff accuracy. Many of the rules tone down or decrease a certain unit's abilities for balance.

All BL books need to be taken with a bit of salt. They can work as reliable pieces of information when they are taken and analyzed with the background and other fluff pieces of said army or race. Other times, however, they can massively deviate from the background, or have certain "hero" moments. That said, many BL products are great sources of information, they just have to be taken in the right context.

Dyrnwyn
14-01-2008, 09:09
And testimonials of people which unit was destroy by totaly new and powerful weapons and they live in imperium that doesnt look kindly at failure are more valid that scientific analysis why? Railgun is more powerfull that almost all tank (not superheavy tank) mounted imperial weapons that I admit but necron weapons are still lot stronger.
On side note was that necron gauss harvesting thing really proven I always belived it was only a thery?
I didn't say they were 'more valid.' I said that you were ignoring them. The first quote establishes that the Railgun does extremely well against russ armor, refuting your statement; "Railgun can Shoot trough Leman russ but not so easilly" Hyperbole aside, it's apparent that the weapon is extremely effective against the tanks of the IG (our tanks were useless; armor was like paper). The second quote establishes that the Railgun is also capable of duplicating the 'shoot through a tank with no deflection' feat that the heavy gauss cannon is capable of. Granted, the quote specifies flanks of a IG tank, which are less armored than a Land Raider, but obviously the Railgun is capable of the feat with power to spare.

As for the harvesting equipment thing, it's rather obvious that from the way gauss weapons work that they're tremendously inefficient at killing things. They flay the target in layers measured in atomic scale and steal the atoms back into the gun. It's much cheaper and easier to blow large holes in living organisms to kill them, or puncture the armored box of a tank with a kinetic penetrator than vacuum away atoms layer by layer. Either the C'tan hobble their minions because they want to terrify their enemies rather than kill them, or the Necrons are doing exactly what they're supposed to do; gather food for the C'tan in their great harvest of the intelligent species.


Dont know about battletech but starwars are probably even more contradictonary than warhammer. And I am not even starting with starcraft novels.
I don't know about that. Some of the early Star Wars novels, yeah, descriptions of the workings of equipment were pretty wonky and not all together. The majority of them (well, those that I read, granted I stopped reading Star Wars novels a while ago) are fairly consistent on the descriptions of equipment effects though. Force effects I'll admit are changed fairly often.


And by that officialy yes theirs validity is same but there is that thing that comunities formed around universes like starwars or warhammer usualy know validity of autors and for background purposes use only novels from autors that have good enough grasp on background.

On the other hand Codexes like insanly glorify the army that is presented in it and they usualy indirectly say: This army is best army in warhammer.
Oh, so some BL books are valid sources and some are not? But BL has stated that there is no canon, and that all their books are valid background.

Generally, I've found that the best place to reference background is the Imperial Armor books and the codexes themselves.





No he wasnt, he said that my novel examples have much lesser weight than his official background and rule examples. And when I was asking him what was his Official background example, he said that it is novel.
You know, I've gone back and read Getz's posts. I don't see him making any such statement.


This Inquisitor fluff validity question was only to prevent starting debate about: "Have plasmagun two power settings or not"

There is hellgun in inquisitor? i was searching for it and i didnt find it. Could you tell me where, maybe it isnt in that base rulebook that I searched or maybe I have old version.
It's in the articles section on Specialist Games, the article about Stormtroopers.


I absolutely agree with it (of course with exception of that first sentence)

But this was written in this thread several times and I think that most of people in this tread agress with this. So I dont think that I am losing sight of real question because that question has been already answered. Which hasnt been answered are various individual technologies.
Well, fair enough. But frankly, I don't think you have much of a case.

To argue that the rules have no impact on the fluff and do not accurately reflect the fluff is silly. The rules are what make the fluff. An example given earlier; Tau were originally playtested at BS4, but they found that this was too unbalanced. So fluff was created that they had eyesight troubles to explain their BS3. They could have kept their original background, and upped points cost, but instead they changed the rules and wrote new background to reflect the rules. If the background came first, and the Tau weren't meant to have guns as strong as heavy bolter shells, they could have made rules to reflect that. But they didn't; they made the rules, and then built the fluff around them.

Forbiddenknowledge
14-01-2008, 15:05
If I may, on the matter of Boltpistol/pulse pistol damage in Inquisiter et al:

I have always been under the impression that, whilst a pulse weapon is clearly stronger (numerous fluff, game rules) a bolt weapon is more damaging - yes, a pulse round will kill, and probably knock you flying 10 feet, but at the end of it, there will only be a medium sized wound. A bolt round detonates, destroying torso cavaties and leaving nothing left.

Inquisitor stats seems to represent damage, not strength, so I see no reason based on the above why the I rules and 40k rules cannot be consistent.

Don't believe anything written in a BL novel, unless its Shadow Point/Execution Hour. Half the Tau novels say they have blue blood, half of them get it wrong and say red blood, so don't believe them flat out.

Brother Thuemoose
14-01-2008, 22:26
I thought the Imperium couldn't clone?

Some servitors are made from cloned parts, and its implied that the Death Korps of Kreig use cloning to increase the number of men at their disposal (I believe the passage in the Imperial Armour book states that the Guard tithe they provide is higher than it should be).

Edited for clarity.

kikkoman
14-01-2008, 23:21
Humanity has more advanced genetic studies and implants than the Eldar.(at least it seems so)

Dark Eldar seem to do more body augumentation. Grotesques are super resiliant, though purposefully stupid. Mandrakes got that stealth skin, Decapitator has an extra pair of arms. Talos is a big crazy cyborg.

Eldar bodies also seem to have a much higher 'cap' than human ones. Super speed n' skill and all. Exarch's in 2nd ed could punch as hard as space marine masters 'cause of their martial arts.

Maybe augumentation interferes with psychic power? Some sci fi settings make a magic/psychic vs bionics distinction.

Mike The Zealous
15-01-2008, 04:11
Tru, and in Ravenor, a ex-IG sniper swapped his long-las for a pulse rifle that he got off a tau, cause he thought it would do more damage, or so i think

T_55
15-01-2008, 14:00
I didn't mean it literally Brother Siccarius, not in that way, but almost every other race either has no use for it or thinks of it as primitive in comparison to their own technology or in their own arrogance/ignorance. Elder, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Dark Elder, etc.

And people have already said the armylists are generally bad representation of fluff.

Shas'o Zor'bas
25-08-2008, 12:49
A good way to understand that Tau Technollogy is superior to the Imreriums is the Hammerhead. There is no other race, except I maybe Eldar, that can mount a raigun to a skimmer. The power that is needed to through the missile can easily destroy the Tank and in the case of a skimmer through it miles away. But the Tau have managed to overcome this objtacle and create stabilisation system that can hold the skimmer flying while still shooting. If a landspeeder for example had a railgun and fired it it would be thrown ferther than the missile:cries:

As for bioengeenering in the Tau codex it mentions that the Shas'els often carry scars BIONICS or misfigurements so Tau have bioengeenering but don't use it often. After all they have drones

Clockwork-Knight
25-08-2008, 17:11
Wait. Aren't railguns magnetically propulsed weapons, meaning that there isn't any recoil?

Lord Raneus
25-08-2008, 17:13
A good way to understand that Tau Technollogy is superior to the Imreriums is the Hammerhead. There is no other race, except I maybe Eldar, that can mount a raigun to a skimmer. The power that is needed to through the missile can easily destroy the Tank and in the case of a skimmer through it miles away. But the Tau have managed to overcome this objtacle and create stabilisation system that can hold the skimmer flying while still shooting. If a landspeeder for example had a railgun and fired it it would be thrown ferther than the missile:cries:

As for bioengeenering in the Tau codex it mentions that the Shas'els often carry scars BIONICS or misfigurements so Tau have bioengeenering but don't use it often. After all they have drones


Conversely, I'd say that the Lascannon, while slightly weaker than the railgun, is a far more advanced weapon. ;)

And, of course, Tau spaceships are utter rubbish compared to Imperial ones. An Imperial cruiser can take a Tau battleship.

Lord Damocles
25-08-2008, 17:14
Threadomancy Ahoy!


Wait. Aren't railguns magnetically propulsed weapons, meaning that there isn't any recoil?
In theory, yes. Like Shuriken weaponry.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
25-08-2008, 17:20
Quite correct, I think. Of course, recoil often is enforced by the Rule of Cool, so it may be different. Also, bionics =/= bioengineering. Astartes are bioengineered, implanted with vat-grown, physiologically compatible super-organs. Bionics, while advanced, are just a mechanical implant, in essence an advanced prosthesis.

StarshipBOb
25-08-2008, 17:26
Wait. Aren't railguns magnetically propulsed weapons, meaning that there isn't any recoil?

Newton's Third Law dictates that their will be a relatively large amount of recoil, especially when chucking a heavy slug of metal at hypersonic speeds.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
25-08-2008, 17:52
Logically, however, there's no "action" involved- you just drop the slug into the chamber and let the magnets do the rest...

StarshipBOb
25-08-2008, 18:07
Logically, however, there's no "action" involved- you just drop the slug into the chamber and let the magnets do the rest...

There is still recoil, just where it happens is up to debate. link (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2001PhRvE..63e8602C)

Lord Damocles
25-08-2008, 20:44
Do railguns even fire solid ammunition?

I thought they fired (blue) energy pulses?

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
25-08-2008, 20:53
Tau rail-weapons are pretty much identical to the real thing- a solid projectile accelerated by parallel magnetic "rails".

Firaxin
25-08-2008, 22:12
Dear god, this again?

Bring it on, fishlovers. You'll find that no matter what, your arguments will always be outclassed by us loyalists. :evilgrin:


...Not that I'm trying to start a fight or anything. :angel:

Drogmir
25-08-2008, 23:06
Ok this post might come off as creepy but it works in my mind.

The Tau Empire is so small in terms of location and right in front of the Tyranid advance that I don't how how they're going to survive.

Imagine the human body is the Imperium as a whole
A tumor growing in his head are Necrons
the Athlete's foot he has are Orks
Eldar and Dark Eldar are a paintfully annoying rash
A Swarm of Mosquitoes attacking him are Tyranids but they can only enter his house at random intervals
The slow Cancer growing inside him is Chaos
Tau is the painful splinter lodged into his fingernail, no matter what he does he can't get it out and only drives deeper inside.



Strange analogy I know but I think it works, Tau is hardly on the top list of the Imperium's problems no matter how much technology they're getting.

Clockwork-Knight
25-08-2008, 23:39
Ehrm, actually, they don't have any problems with the Tyranids, because the Imperium already defeated Behemoth, and only remnants of it remain, as do splinter fleets of Kraken. Leviathan was also crushed at one part, while the other maw is halted at Orctavius, or whatever Ork empire there is. According to the new rulebook, the other arriving hive-fleets come from all different position. If anything, the Imperium will be destroyed before the Tau Empire (although not all too long afterwards).

I don't give the Tau any much chance if a really really big hive fleet the size of Behemoth appears, and they will probably be crushed after the demise of the Imperium by the star-beasts, but right now, everything's quite okay for them, and they're as big as never before.

Of course, should the Imperium manage to destroy the Tyranid advance, it may be that its forces will be so depleted, that the Tau will annex even more imperial planets. After all, the Imperium is at its knee, and even forced to take away troops and fleets from the Ultima Segmentum, to assist the beleaguered Cadian gate, and still not winning, with Chaos forces having gained a strong foothold on several sectors, and the Imperial Navy being forced to re-deploy new guard regiments from other far-away sectors and segmenti.

As for the analogy, I wouldn't put Tyranids as mosquitos, but more as rabid beasts with powerful venoms that have been already injected into the blood-stream. Remember Genestealers and the cults that have infested many thousand imperial worlds.

Allen
26-08-2008, 10:49
<Sigh> Way to go misrepresenting me.

No, Dyrnwyn was right. I was pointing out to you that the BL novels are wildy inconsistant and that for any source in a BL novel you care to mention, I can probably find another one that contradicts it. The only consistant source of information about the game world are the rules.

Well, the rules are contained in the race/faction specific Codex.
And we all know that every codex is just a big, dirty, stinky mass of propaganda. If you read the Tau's Codex you'll have the assumption that Tau complete and brutal supremacy over every single race in this galaxy is a matter of weeks because they scare even Chuck Norris with their awesomeness. Same thing about the Orks, Necrons, Chaos guys, Imperial guys and so on.

Every single codex contradicts every other one on fluff terms. Every codex has the same level of inconsistancy of BL novels, caused by game balancing needs, the "we need something new, something fresh" syndrome, the author being a fan/hate-boy and/or wildly competent/incompetent.

The only consistant source of information about Warhammer and/or Warhammer 40.000 simply does not exist. Looking for coherent and unbiased information in a setting created by GW is like looking for continuity and logic in Marvel comic books.

Getz
26-08-2008, 12:00
Threadomancy aside, you have quite completely missed the point. I was not talking about the fluff in the codices, I was talking about the rules.

I refer you to my previous post...

Very little of the fluff is written from an unbiased, disspassionate viewpoint.

BriareosDX
27-08-2008, 08:22
Allen is quite correct. Everybody always wins in their own codex. Note that for the Imperials, even losing a battle is a victory so long as they fought with faith in the Emperor.

That aside, I was talking with a friend about the Imperial reaction to Tau technology in one of the Ciaphas Cain books. The Imperials were terrified, calling the Tau's drones and suits "techno-sorcery". He pointed out that really, it's the Tau who would probably be terrified of the Imperial's Techno-Sorcery.

The imperials are the ones with power weapons, titans, and man-portable versions of weapons like melta guns and plasma guns, weapons that the Tau have to mount on battle-suits. Oh, and all those weapons? Some of them are ancient and still perform their jobs just fine. A space marine's bolter might be older than the entire Tau race. And it still works.

And think about a Tau Firewarrior's reaction to the ubiquitous lasgun. Sure, they're nowhere near as powerful as the firewarrior's pulse rifle. But that lasgun has almost no moving parts, can be re-charged in a campfire, and are produced in such vast numbers that imperial soldiers from opposite ends of the galaxy might have identical lasguns. What that says about their supply system is staggering.

And that's not even thinking about the Adeptus Astartes. Imagine seeing a squad of battlesuits ripped into tiny pieces by one guy with a powerfist. And then they have actual "magic" from the Librarians.

aim
27-08-2008, 11:07
I think you missed the point of that particular part of the book. ie Imperials think that technology is more a religion than something you can build and advance through understanding and knowlege. The reaction a tau would have is probably more along the lines of 'thats pretty cool'. Think a mechanic looking at a snazzy advanced car.

If you wanted a view of what imperials think of the technology itself look at kill team i think it is. Theres a part where a hammerhead appears over the top of a ridge or something, and the imperials in their tank cack their pants and belt it behind cover, commenting 'never let that gun shoot at you' or something along those lines.

Im staying out of this argument as its clearly fan boy oriented but I will add that people pointing out the tau plasma weapons are weaker, This is explained in the codex. It says that they have a mastery of advanced techs such as plasma and they decided to forgo some of the stopping power to make it a more stable and viable combat weapon.

Shas'o Zor'bas
27-08-2008, 12:35
Imperial Technology is cool I agree with this but it is not as advanced as the Tau Technology. You can easily see this by examining athe orks army. Orks are enemies of both but can only construct weapons similar to Imperial ones they can't even understand Tau Technollogy. But the most important thing is that we are talking about a game if GW decides that Tau can construct Titans they will construct them and if they decide that Tyranids can destroy the whole universe they will destroy it. It's simple:)

Allen
27-08-2008, 13:09
Threadomancy aside, you have quite completely missed the point. I was not talking about the fluff in the codices, I was talking about the rules.

I refer you to my previous post...


Well, I supposed that was a sort of error. Background/fluff is not defined by the rules, and will never be: rules are for gaming purposes and follow the gaming needs and mechanichs. You wrote that the unique source of information about the universe are the rules...well, I'm sorry, but "Warhammer 40.000 Universe" is not composed of rules, but of background. Rules form what can be easily defined ad "Warhammer 40.000 gaming system".

Fluff/Background/Lore is just an "add-on" to the core rules, a sort of novelization to just avoid gaming with cold roosters, numbers and maths. According to the rules an autogun is on par with a lasgun...on the fluff it is not. The lasgun is more powerful, accurate and needs less mantainance. On the fluff the lasgun is incredibly better (even on the logistical point) than the autogun.
According to the rules a carapace armour can block a bolt round. According to the fluff bolt rounds can pierce the power armour of Marines.

Rules are for gaming, and can influence the background only on a minimal level. Background is just some spicy sauce added to improve the taste of a gaming system: you can't really use fluff to back up gaming arguments and, vice versa, you can't use rules to validate background.


And by the way, I wouldn't call my reply threadomancy: the reply before mine was of the same day :D

Getz
27-08-2008, 13:15
To be honest, the threadomancy comment was not directed at you.

I agree that the rules do not define the exact detail of the fluff, and there are many elements of the fluff that have no representation in the rules (the superiority of the lasgun over the autogun, for example). However, they do define the broad strokes, and to argue that an S3 gun is more powerful than an S5 gun because a BL novel says so - which is where the point really came to the fore - is pretty silly, wouldn't you agree?

Allen
27-08-2008, 13:53
To be honest, the threadomancy comment was not directed at you.

I agree that the rules do not define the exact detail of the fluff, and there are many elements of the fluff that have no representation in the rules (the superiority of the lasgun over the autogun, for example). However, they do define the broad strokes, and to argue that an S3 gun is more powerful than an S5 gun because a BL novel says so - which is where the point really came to the fore - is pretty silly, wouldn't you agree?


Well, I'll surprise you: no, I don't agree :D
I don't agree because a Tau weapon or a Space Marine one have a particular strenght value because needs to be balanced in the gaming system and (more specifically) needs to be defined inside the particular racial/faction system of rules.

Black Library novels are -honestly- in great part an horrible mess if we analyze them under the background perspective. But if a BL novel or a piece of fluff say that a lasgun can pierce a hole in the armour of a fire warrior, well, that's the WH40K universe. Rules say that in WH40K gaming system a fire warrior is well protected against las rounds, but that's an entirely different perspective.

At least IMHO gaming system and fluff interacts in a very light way. As you said, the rules define in a general way the background, but that's all. General way. If the background say that a frag grenade could compromise the integrity of the sarcophagus of a chaos dreadnought...well, rules say otherwise. But we're speaking of the "setting" not of the "system".

BLZBOB
28-08-2008, 14:56
Just to clear up the railgun confusion its not magnetic, thats a gauss (not necron style) gun or coil gun if you prefer. Railguns electrically accelerate a slug, enough power and the slug gets electrons stripped and becomes a plasma. Either way though you are chucking out something with mass at speed. Newtons third dictates a force will be given as a reaction although there are ways around this and it would be possible to use the motion to generate power.

Havock
19-10-2008, 05:15
"Imperial tech knowledge is not stagnant - it is decadent." :eyebrows:

Decadent? :wtf: Slaanesh tech is 'decadent' (and pretty vulgar too). Imperial Tech is more like archaic lore. It's closer to religious magical practices like Judaism. Most rabbi' don't know why they perform certain rituals, but they know they must for everything to work.

It depends on which 'image' you follow: The problem is that GW is inconsistent, as well as every army book being it's own propaganda-pamflet.

How I see things: techpriests are perfectly capable of whipping out new ideas; it just takes a long time for it to 'pass', and it does depends on the person, and his (its?) surroundings.
Tau may compete with the IoM on a ground basis, but where it matters: space, they are horribly outclassed (and tech'ed)
It should say something that their brand new shiny cruiser (protector class) and sort of designed after the Lunar, because it is so damn awesome in their eyes (Yet we all know that the lunar is the workhorse of the imperial navy; sort of the 'autocannon' of spaceships).

Yeah, I am slightly biased in favour of the imperium, but that has less to do with the Tau and more with GW's mary-sue-ish approach when it comes to them.

Brother Siccarius
19-10-2008, 09:48
Allen is quite correct. Everybody always wins in their own codex. Note that for the Imperials, even losing a battle is a victory so long as they fought with faith in the Emperor.

That aside, I was talking with a friend about the Imperial reaction to Tau technology in one of the Ciaphas Cain books. The Imperials were terrified, calling the Tau's drones and suits "techno-sorcery". He pointed out that really, it's the Tau who would probably be terrified of the Imperial's Techno-Sorcery.

Not quite. The Imperials were afraid of the Tau's "Techno-sorcery" specifically because it seemed so advanced and wide spread. I believe there's a quote that's battered around on these boards along the lines of "The higher the level of technology the more it will resemble magic".



The imperials are the ones with power weapons, titans, and man-portable versions of weapons like melta guns and plasma guns, weapons that the Tau have to mount on battle-suits.

The Tau don't have these because it's not within their fighting style. Why have power weapons when you don't close with the enemy? Why have Titans when you're focused on fast strikes and maneuverability? The tau also don't like to employ squad based heavy weapons. It's possible for them to do so, and they proved that with the railrifle, but it's just not something they do currently. Though they only made the rail rifle in response to recent threats, so they may very well change tactics on that.


Oh, and all those weapons? Some of them are ancient and still perform their jobs just fine. A space marine's bolter might be older than the entire Tau race. And it still works.

The Tau race probably wouldn't care too much for that, except to wonder why they hadn't advanced at all in that time.



And think about a Tau Firewarrior's reaction to the ubiquitous lasgun. Sure, they're nowhere near as powerful as the firewarrior's pulse rifle. But that lasgun has almost no moving parts, can be re-charged in a campfire, and are produced in such vast numbers that imperial soldiers from opposite ends of the galaxy might have identical lasguns. What that says about their supply system is staggering.

Not really, all it says about the imperium is that they do things on a larger scale, it's not like a single Forgeworld is producing all of the lasguns for the Imperium, it's more like a lot of forgeworlds producing for a small area. All the similarity in design means is that they follow the same Fordian concepts that the Tau Empire does.



And that's not even thinking about the Adeptus Astartes. Imagine seeing a squad of battlesuits ripped into tiny pieces by one guy with a powerfist. And then they have actual "magic" from the Librarians.

Nothing new to the Tau. They just don't think like that. They're very analytical, and have a need to know everything. They probably already understand how a powerfist works, and if some fool in a battlesuit let one get close to them, then more fool them. Besides, taking ratio of suits of power armor in relation to population of the Imperium, and the ratio of battlesuits to the population of the Tau Empire, I'm more impressed with the lighter and more agile battlesuit that's still as strong or stronger than a Marine and carries more weapons.
The Tau adapt, they don't just sit their afraid of the new threat, they change their technology to overcome hurdles.

Shas'o Zor'bas
19-10-2008, 11:05
Good answer Siccarius:)

DantesInferno
19-10-2008, 12:25
Not quite. The Imperials were afraid of the Tau's "Techno-sorcery" specifically because it seemed so advanced and wide spread. I believe there's a quote that's battered around on these boards along the lines of "The higher the level of technology the more it will resemble magic".

Arthur C. Clarke's so-called Third Law:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Funnily enough it's probably working both ways in this case. The Imperials assume that the Tau advanced technology is magic, whereas the Tau assume the Imperial magic is advanced technology...

Firaxin
19-10-2008, 19:02
Not quite. The Imperials were afraid of the Tau's "Techno-sorcery" specifically because it seemed so advanced and wide spread. I believe there's a quote that's battered around on these boards along the lines of "The higher the level of technology the more it will resemble magic".
...Cain is also routinely afraid of pretty much everything he comes across... so I don't see how his reaction is indicative of the Imperium's as a whole.


I'm more impressed with the lighter and more agile battlesuit that's still as strong or stronger than a Marine and carries more weapons.
Frankly I'm more impressed with the more compact, smaller, terminator armor, which nevertheless provides a better save (even against railguns) than a mere battlesuit, has greater strength than any battlesuit (in the form of a powerfist), and whether its a heavy flamer or assault cannon or storm bolter combined with a backpack mounted missile launcher, has longer range and more powerful weapons.

In direct ratio terms, there might not be as many terminator armored soldiers as there are battlesuits, but we can explain that away in the same way you've explained away the weaker tau plasma weapons: It's because the Imperium doesn't NEED super soldiers; cannon fodder and inexpensive troops capable of garrison duty are far more important to them (especially because if they rebel, they won't be as powerful). They have the capacity to make terminator armor, and provide it on a large scale, but because they don't need/want to, (and because of complicated politics between the admech and the Imperium) they don't.

Also, @ whoever said we just need to look at the orks: The orks replicate human technology because they are in contact with humans all over the galaxy, and have had tens of thousands of years to copy our tech. Tau they've been in contact for what, a thousand years? On a very very localized level in only one teeny tiny portion of the galaxy.

Clockwork-Knight
19-10-2008, 19:54
Cain isn't the only one afraid of the Tau's techno-sorcery. So are the participants who went on to wage war in the Damocles Crusades described in the Rogue Trader-novels, Lt. Schaeffer's penal squad and himself, and practically everyone who else trades with them. So yeah, the Imperials see in Tau tech only black arts, enslaved machine spirits with no guidance by the tech-adepts of the Mechanicum.

Also, Terminator armor and Battlesuits serve completely different functions. The one's a protective suit intended to work in the vicinity of a highly radioactive power generator, turned into a battle-armor perfectly suitable for close-combat. The other one's a mobile weapon platform capable of flying and bringing rapid assault maneuvers, do hunt tanks and other heavy armor. The former is a lost art in many sectors of the Imperium according to Index Astartes, the other is mass-produced for higher-ranking fire warriors, and constantly evolving, so that the lattest techno-sorcerous battle-suits are small and compact, and have cloaking stealth abilities.

Triszin The Wrath God
21-10-2008, 06:34
this threads needs to be closed.....

Getz
21-10-2008, 12:50
Frankly I'm more impressed with the more compact, smaller, terminator armor, which nevertheless provides a better save (even against railguns) than a mere battlesuit, has greater strength than any battlesuit (in the form of a powerfist), and whether its a heavy flamer or assault cannon or storm bolter combined with a backpack mounted missile launcher, has longer range and more powerful weapons.

In direct ratio terms, there might not be as many terminator armored soldiers as there are battlesuits, but we can explain that away in the same way you've explained away the weaker tau plasma weapons: It's because the Imperium doesn't NEED super soldiers; cannon fodder and inexpensive troops capable of garrison duty are far more important to them (especially because if they rebel, they won't be as powerful). They have the capacity to make terminator armor, and provide it on a large scale, but because they don't need/want to, (and because of complicated politics between the admech and the Imperium) they don't.

I see your Terminators and raise you a Broadside suit with a shield generator... Better weapons, better Inv save and more wounds for about the same points.

However Clockwork knight makes a far better point. You are not comparing like with like. I might as well say that Titans are inferior to Mantas because they can't fly...


this threads needs to be closed.....

Never a truer word spoken.

Dakkagor
21-10-2008, 21:21
In direct ratio terms, there might not be as many terminator armored soldiers as there are battlesuits, but we can explain that away in the same way you've explained away the weaker tau plasma weapons: It's because the Imperium doesn't NEED super soldiers; cannon fodder and inexpensive troops capable of garrison duty are far more important to them (especially because if they rebel, they won't be as powerful). They have the capacity to make terminator armor, and provide it on a large scale, but because they don't need/want to, (and because of complicated politics between the admech and the Imperium) they don't.

I would dearly love to see some fluff support for that statement. Terminator armour is one of the rarest, most revered armour types in the imperium. I quote pg12 of the 4th edition Space marine codex


"Incredibly ancient, the secrets of their construction has long since been lost "

Scholam
22-10-2008, 03:37
The technology of the Imperium is extremely esoteric. A good example of this is that on a warship 30km long, which has artificial gravity and local control over inertial, is capable of travelling faster than the speed of light, and is equipped with weapons that can scour all life from a planet, cargo must be moved around the hold by slaves pulling on ropes.

While the highest examples of imperial technology are far in advance of the Tau, such as teleporters, nullships, titans, stasis fields, cyclonic missiles, Astartes, terminator armour etc., the Imperium usually has no idea how they function and probably cannot manufacture more of them. The highest examples of human technology, such as the Iron Men, are either long lost or forbidden. They also have no real concept of advancement, been that they are have using most of the same technology for at least 10 000 years.

The Tau, on the other hand, are constantly upgrading, experimenting and advancing. Their basic level of battlefield technology has already exceeded the basic battlefield technology of the Imperium, and they are only going to keep improving while the Imperium stagnates and, more often than not, moves backwards.

RichBlake
28-03-2009, 00:32
Why have so many people been dissing the lasgun in this thread?

Right now wearing jeans and a T-shirt I could easily carry a cell in each pocket, meaning 4 in my jeans and 1 in my gun. Thats 280 shots, plus I can recharge them by leaving them in sunlight, in heat or at worst by throwing them into a fire.

Lasguns suck power wise because they were never designed for that. They were designed to keep working no matter what you did with them because you were preparing to give them to all sorts of idiots.

Hellguns are probably the height of Imperial laser based basic weaponry. Though since they are AP3 in the new codex I'd like to see whther or not this is now "Hellguns are awesome" or simply "These guardsmen have awesome suped up hellguns".

Raellos
28-03-2009, 01:08
At this stage, it appears that the differences between Tau and Imperial technology are doctrinal, with a few notable exceptions. As Tau technology advances though, the Imperals will get left behind, unless somebody finds a ****-kicking stc fragment or something.

I do find it hard to swallow that the Imperium cannot build more terminator suits.

The_Outsider
28-03-2009, 01:20
I do find it hard to swallow that the Imperium cannot build more terminator suits.

This is basically proof that GW changes the fluff for whatever army they are writing the background for at the time.

The IoM can still make terminator suits, the 4th ed codex is the only place that says they cannot - though it does raise the question about the emperor's armour, but meh.

Also: people massively overrate tau technology (or just tau in general). Their empire is almost nonexistant, their technology is decent enough for them to expand into space and make war against the minor species, but nowhere near advanced enough to take on the big boys in an actual fight.

An often overlooked fact is the logistics the IoM has to deal with when equipping billions of soldiers across millions of lightyears - if the IoM was the size of the tau empire giving everyone power armour and boltguns would be far more likely.

Demon Druss
28-03-2009, 02:17
Personally its a bit unfair to compare the 40k Imperium and the Tau because humanity has been fighting on all fronts for nigh on 10 millenia a much more realistic debate could be held if you compared the Imperium of the 31st millenium to the Tau of 40k both races don't believe in gods at that point, Both races were conquering vast swathes of the galaxy and both races understand the principles behind their technology and were fairly naive of the warp although the emperor and a few others hid the truth

Raellos
28-03-2009, 02:26
I don't think they were naive of the warp, they had warp drives for millennia before then.

captainramoz
28-03-2009, 02:50
Didn't the imperium atack the Tau, and loose, and that was before they actully had somewhat of a empire, also it dosnt matter how fast your land speeders are if they cant have a very large Anti tank weapon, there battlesuits are big, because they have like 3 weapons on them. And even there logic behind evrything is better, The Imperium think if they Bless the weapon it will work, Tau think if they build it it will work.
No they actually didn't tried hard.
But a macharian size crusade will obliterate the tau empire forever:D

gendoikari87
07-12-2009, 21:45
Okay time to pick this apart like a vulture picks a month old rabbit.

I say this because arguments such as these "imperium is more advanced than tau" or "tau is more advanced than imperium' Or "Eldar are more advanced than tau" and vice versa. Are all horribly flawed to Begin with. First of all with civiliztions that are relatively close on the tech scale (I.E. Ones not a stone age civ, and the other is a Computer age civ) you can't really say ones more advanced that the other because the two usually take very different tech trees. Much like the eldar and tau debate. Yes the eldar have been around for much longer but the whole span of human history is over a million years and 99% of our advancement has been in the past 10,000 years. And of that at least half has been done in the past 5,000 years. and while the eldar might seem more advanced, it's all in areas the tau have not advanced at all or very little. So it's more like Eldar are on one side of the tree and tau are on the other. Argue how you like on which ones more advance, it's a moot point before the argument is even begun. Secondly Design philosophy is usually extravagantly different. Look at the mideval knight and the japanese samurai for example. I hear debates of putting a samurai and a knight in a fight to see who would win. Well that's asinine. A samurai was a fast shock troop for use in the japanese foot hills to fight under a primitive form of bushido, in the japanese style of war. The knight was essentially and armored tank designed for European use in the style of warfare the Europeans used. So who would win? It doesn't matter your comparing apples to oranges here and that's my first big point. Now on to the first post.

--Plasma weaponry

This is a case of design philosophy confusion. Yes Imperial versions are more powerful but they have to be mounted on a vehicle to have the coolants they require, or else they blow up. Tau plasma tech is smaller more efficient and not as deadly. The tau prefer their weapons to be safe. the imperium however has enough bodies lying around to waste a few million here or there. Tau do not.

-- battlesuits V Terminators

I fail to see your point, Terminators are, yes MUCH better at CC..... however the battlesuit is a medium range supplement to the long range railgun. The Battle suit is for fire support while the terminators are CC shock troops. The imperium glorifies CC as much as anything I know, at least the marines do. The tau see CC as primitive, and from a technical perspective they're mostly right.(Don't Believe me? Go pick out the most advanced power sword you can find, I'll go get a 9mm and we'll go at it.) Which is why tau don't have assault infantry. to them it's primitive, and useless for their style of warfare.

-- Grav tanks

In reality their about the same but the tau use them for anything and everything that's practical to use it on. Which given how prevalent it is in tau society I'd say that it's fairly common and understood and also cheap.

Also Read before you post, the hammerhead uses an anti-grav field and . If the engines were there as V/STOL that would mean the tau were idiots as the placement of the engines is wildly off center for such use. the jet engines are for forward thrust Mostly because i'm guessing either tau figured out how much better/safe it is to use antigrav for lifting only or that tau jet engines are much better. Which is especially true if they're not just simple chemical propellant engines either.

--Space ship technology

Again apples and oranges but probably comparing a rotten apple to a fresh orange. Even with the Nicassar the tau are limited to short range jumps, because they have no astronomican. Vortex is nice but (and I know Its very wrong) if the books, fluff and other sources are to believed the tau railguns fire projectiles at near the speed of light. Which gives them enough energy to pretty much wipe out anything. Even planets, as you go to speed of light your energy becomes infinite, and therefore any massive particle traveling at C has infinite mass and energy and that's just not possible or even anywhere in the realm of possible. But seeing as nothing in the fluff shows this, or even suggest that one railgun can wipe out all creation in the univers.... we can just chalk this up to "GW knows nothing of physics and need to be schooled before they open their mouths.". Even if the tau have an inertia canceller it doesn't work, or at least wouldn't work as a weapon. Now kill off the zombie emperor and your talking a more levelish playing field.

- personal power fields
They're just called Shield generators in the tau empire. They have them in the same size on their ethereals and they're much more protective. Here we can actually compare Oranges to oranges and tau shields (4+) and Imperial shields (5+) and the imperial shields just don't stack up.

- teleportation
Yeah...

- bioengneering
Tau are better at it than the imperium. just not in the traditional sense. The tau are selectivly bred to be the best in their field for their race.... EVER SINGLE TAU. not just the best of the warriors.

- terra forming

Don't have any info here, but I'd be willing to bet with as many inhabitable worlds as they have that they can do this.
- vortex weaponry
Who needs Vortex weapons when your main gun can kill all life in the known universe? jk lol. It's a philosophy, the tau WON'T use it or make it, not that they can't
- laser weaponry

They surpased this a long time ago, except for markerlights

- titans & mind impulse tech

Design philosophy they have other things to fulfill those roles.

- servitors (arguably a form of bio engineering, but suitably different)

Drones. Cheap. Cost Effective. Disposable. Small and entirely made of metal. I'll take these over servitors any day of the week
- exterminatus/germ warfare
Never even thought about by the tau
- navigation/warp travel
Nicassar
- astropathic communication
True
- other psychic uses (astronomicon, battlefield psychers, emperor's tarot)
Nicassar

All this being said, the imperium would kick the taus ass with throwing stones and interstellar transports. because the imperium can just send in a million soldiers for every tau in existance.

actually found the website through this thred while looking for old style tau models. Thought I'd respond to it and join up.

Random Person
08-12-2009, 04:31
Really, a more likely (though still extremely impractical) velocity of 0.1c or 0.01c would still be deadly, very deadly. They also are likely shooting lighter rounds at the higher velocities. Also on the ground they would be nowhere near that speed, 1 or 2 km/s would be a very sufficient, and more possible.

In "realistic" space combat (harder science fiction), rail guns are fine and 1 hit kills and all, but lasers can actually hit things at much longer ranges. Speed of shot is practically proportional to effective range. In 40k, see how lances and ion cannons (a charged particle beam most likely) are made of win in space. Except with Eldar with their Holofields where you can't tell where they are well enough for your single powerful shots and have to rely on the more rapid fire/plentiful weapon batteries.

Noserenda
08-12-2009, 04:45
And its time for another round of fan boy shouting...

Havock
08-12-2009, 04:50
Sweet merciful undying thread!
The imperium has rail guns by the way.

*cough*Nova cannons *cough*

Raellos
08-12-2009, 05:35
I quote pg12 of the 4th edition Space marine codex

Yeah, but the 4th ed book is a pile of poo.
New enhancements have been produced since the heresy, and new suits must have been produced- more chapters have been raised, first companies if not whole chapters have been destroyed, lost in the warp, etc.

The emperor didn't make a South American sized warehouse full of suits in his obsessive compulsive mechanics phase.

Terminator suits also are much more compact, more mobile, can teleport, and most importantly look better and aren't a hybrid metal plastic model ;)

gendoikari87
08-12-2009, 10:54
Really, a more likely (though still extremely impractical) velocity of 0.1c or 0.01c would still be deadly, very deadly. They also are likely shooting lighter rounds at the higher velocities. Also on the ground they would be nowhere near that speed, 1 or 2 km/s would be a very sufficient, and more possible.

In "realistic" space combat (harder science fiction), rail guns are fine and 1 hit kills and all, but lasers can actually hit things at much longer ranges. Speed of shot is practically proportional to effective range. In 40k, see how lances and ion cannons (a charged particle beam most likely) are made of win in space. Except with Eldar with their Holofields where you can't tell where they are well enough for your single powerful shots and have to rely on the more rapid fire/plentiful weapon batteries.
Actually by physics Railguns have longer Range. At least in space. A laser will diverge as a function of the resonance chamber something or another I don't have the actual equation with me, but it dissapates rather quickly, where as a railgun is now firing a projectile in a frictionless environment. So would continue on forever at that same speed. And you are right that it's probably more like .01C and that even a tiny projectile at .01c has a phenomenal amount of energy.

all momentums

1kg particle at .1c under classical=3E^7

Under Relativistic=30151134.46

Didn't mean to start another round of fanboy shouting.... just making my case that such shouting is generally useless. as the terminator argument proves.

I apologize for the thrednomancy.

Clockwork-Knight
08-12-2009, 11:29
Would a laser really start blooming so fast in space? There's no atmosphere and only really really few atoms and particles standing in the way of a death-raybeam (which we assume to exist for this hypothesis).

Random Person
08-12-2009, 14:54
Yes, rail guns do go on and on forever, which is all fine and dandy for hitting things such as planetoids and orbitals, which have a fairly predictable path. I also said effective range instead of just range, meaning how far out it can reliably hit and do damage, because the fact that the rail gun round takes (at 0.01c) 100 times longer to get to the target. A ship would have a larger and longer chance to accelerate out of the path of the round. This means the ship could be in a much larger area.

An individual rail gun round will just about kill anything it hits. The advantage of lasers comes from the fact that, despite having much lower damage per shot, they would have an effective range of 100 times that of our 0.01c rail gun because they would get there quicker. They laser would lose focus as range so let us cut the effective range in half, so 50 times that of the rail gun. Lasers do have a maximum range, as the 50 times their range is the point at which they are too spread out to deal damage. Lasers also get less powerful as range increases due to the divergence. But the massively increased range compensates for the lower damage. A laser ship can kill the rail gun ship from far off, before the rail gun ship has a chance to hit.

That is not to say rail guns would be useless. They would be very effective siege weapons, as you can sit half way across the system and pelt anything that can't move around freely with things more devastating than nukes. Planets can be rendered barren from well outside the range of any defensive weapon.

Poseidal
08-12-2009, 16:10
- laser weaponry

They surpased this a long time ago, except for markerlights
A Rail Gun is a massive weapon, and needs a system almost entirely dedicated to it.

A Lascannon can be carried by one or two guys.

An Imperial Weapon close to the size of a Rail Gun is a defence laser.

Karhedron
08-12-2009, 16:45
Would a laser really start blooming so fast in space? There's no atmosphere and only really really few atoms and particles standing in the way of a death-raybeam (which we assume to exist for this hypothesis).

Yes they would fail after a few KM at best. The reason is not the diffraction/dispersion caused by intervening particles but the coherence of the laser beam. Lasers are a coherent form of light and so are subject to the basic wave principles of all EM radiation.

A laser beam will loose its coherence over a distance of a few km as destructive interference sets in.

I have a degree in physics although it has been a few years. I cannot remember what the theoretical best range obtainable with a laser is but the figure 40km rings a bell. Space warfare is totally fictional so it is hard to say what is realistic and what is not. I would imagine though that missiles would be the most obvious option. Range measured in thousands of km, guidable and capable of carrying a very destructive payload. A convention nuclear ICBM would need relatively little modification to function in space.

Lasers have issues with coherence lengths as already described. Railguns would work in theory but have 2 problems. The first is the reaction force they would exert against the firing ship (although this can be compensated for by the engines). The second is targeting at long range with deflection to take into account.

A simple course change by the target as soon as it detects a railgun shot would likely result in a miss. Of course missiles can also be intercepted.

Personally I hope we never og to war in space but if we do it is likely that missiles will be the primary long range weapons. Inert projectile weapons such as railguns would probably be used primarily as interceptors or close range weapons, ditto lasers.

Plasma is in interesting concept but I know no way of containing it in a coherent projectile when it is fired. In theory, a plasma "bolt" would disipate after firing as the charged particles repel each other. The most likely use of plasma would be as a propulsion.

Poseidal
08-12-2009, 16:50
Wouldn't Lasers (more or less instant weapons) render missiles mostly useless, as as soon as in Laser Range, the missile will be shot down much faster than it will reach it's target; and you need a lot less energy in the Anti-Missile Laser than the missile would have?

Raellos
08-12-2009, 16:57
Erm... Missiles can go around stuff? Torps make for good disruption tactics?

Iuris
08-12-2009, 17:57
Are you quite sure about lasers losing coherence? Doesn't seen quite right from what I remember from my physics classes. Atmospheric interference is one thing, but in a vacuum?

We can use lasers to determine the range to the moon, after all, and that's way more than 40km...

EDIT: found this about beam divergence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_divergence, but that is a function of beam aperture and wavelength and should be variable.

gendoikari87
08-12-2009, 18:09
Would a laser really start blooming so fast in space? There's no atmosphere and only really really few atoms and particles standing in the way of a death-raybeam (which we assume to exist for this hypothesis).

It does not matter. It's a function of the lasers resonance chamber that can't be fixed. Similarily the divergence then is related to the wavelength of the laser itself. So you could Make one that went out to thousands of miles but not efficently, it'd be gigantic, rendering any such advantages of such a system useless.

gendoikari87
08-12-2009, 18:13
Yes, rail guns do go on and on forever, which is all fine and dandy for hitting things such as planetoids and orbitals, which have a fairly predictable path. I also said effective range instead of just range, meaning how far out it can reliably hit and do damage, because the fact that the rail gun round takes (at 0.01c) 100 times longer to get to the target. A ship would have a larger and longer chance to accelerate out of the path of the round. This means the ship could be in a much larger area.

An individual rail gun round will just about kill anything it hits. The advantage of lasers comes from the fact that, despite having much lower damage per shot, they would have an effective range of 100 times that of our 0.01c rail gun because they would get there quicker. They laser would lose focus as range so let us cut the effective range in half, so 50 times that of the rail gun. Lasers do have a maximum range, as the 50 times their range is the point at which they are too spread out to deal damage. Lasers also get less powerful as range increases due to the divergence. But the massively increased range compensates for the lower damage. A laser ship can kill the rail gun ship from far off, before the rail gun ship has a chance to hit.

That is not to say rail guns would be useless. They would be very effective siege weapons, as you can sit half way across the system and pelt anything that can't move around freely with things more devastating than nukes. Planets can be rendered barren from well outside the range of any defensive weapon.
actually the most you could get out of a laser would probably be about half the distance of the earth to the moon. Or less. and If remember correctly the railgun rounds are guided. Which is of course the only real option for space battle. guided missiles.

gendoikari87
08-12-2009, 18:16
Yes they would fail after a few KM at best. The reason is not the diffraction/dispersion caused by intervening particles but the coherence of the laser beam. Lasers are a coherent form of light and so are subject to the basic wave principles of all EM radiation.

A laser beam will loose its coherence over a distance of a few km as destructive interference sets in.

I have a degree in physics although it has been a few years. I cannot remember what the theoretical best range obtainable with a laser is but the figure 40km rings a bell. Space warfare is totally fictional so it is hard to say what is realistic and what is not. I would imagine though that missiles would be the most obvious option. Range measured in thousands of km, guidable and capable of carrying a very destructive payload. A convention nuclear ICBM would need relatively little modification to function in space.

Lasers have issues with coherence lengths as already described. Railguns would work in theory but have 2 problems. The first is the reaction force they would exert against the firing ship (although this can be compensated for by the engines). The second is targeting at long range with deflection to take into account.

A simple course change by the target as soon as it detects a railgun shot would likely result in a miss. Of course missiles can also be intercepted.

Personally I hope we never og to war in space but if we do it is likely that missiles will be the primary long range weapons. Inert projectile weapons such as railguns would probably be used primarily as interceptors or close range weapons, ditto lasers.

Plasma is in interesting concept but I know no way of containing it in a coherent projectile when it is fired. In theory, a plasma "bolt" would disipate after firing as the charged particles repel each other. The most likely use of plasma would be as a propulsion.

Sorry for multiposting I haven't gotten used to how to insert multi quotes when editing on here yet.


I like you, you know your physics.

but really the best option for anti capital ship space warfare is found in crest of the stars in their rail guns which launch high speed missiles. Course low speed missile are useful for hitting more agile ships.

Lowmans
09-12-2009, 13:52
Firstly, in case you might think I have any leanings on this I'm a professional engineer.

Bearing in mind 40K isn't and never has been 'Hard' SciFi I'm not sure why there's so much grief about all this.

Given this I'm glad there are 'Arts' people doing the writing because they're more likely to make the background interesting!

Futhermore, the view that something can't be done because we currently don't know how to do it or believe it can't be done is a bit shortsighted.

If you asked people a thousand years ago (or even a few hundred years ago) about splitting the atom, microwaves, LASER etc. imagine the answers you might get!

The really surprising thing should be the idea that in 40K, we, or the advanced aliens, would be using ballistic weaponry, infantry, manned vehicles etc.

gendoikari87
10-12-2009, 00:00
Firstly, in case you might think I have any leanings on this I'm a professional engineer.

Bearing in mind 40K isn't and never has been 'Hard' SciFi I'm not sure why there's so much grief about all this.

Given this I'm glad there are 'Arts' people doing the writing because they're more likely to make the background interesting!

Futhermore, the view that something can't be done because we currently don't know how to do it or believe it can't be done is a bit shortsighted.

If you asked people a thousand years ago (or even a few hundred years ago) about splitting the atom, microwaves, LASER etc. imagine the answers you might get!

The really surprising thing should be the idea that in 40K, we, or the advanced aliens, would be using ballistic weaponry, infantry, manned vehicles etc.
If you're an engineer then you know why the problem with LASERS isn't just that we "don't know how" it's related to quantum physics. You just can't build a perfect laser without perfect materials which are impossible.

as for the Speed of light. Not only do you need infinite energy but if you surpass the speed of light you actually start to have NEGATIVE mass or Rather a mass that's multiplied by a factor of i. So not really negative but imaginary. And the only way to get around this is to either mimic the tacheyon and travel backward through time, or warp space time around you which again requires energy levels that dwarf entire solar systems for small ships.

I Know people don't like it when you tell them this but some things are actually impossible.... at least in our universe. Other universes according to M-theory could work on different principals of physics. It is hereby that I propose that the 40k universe is one of these such worlds, and thus correct all fluff/science problems. Also because there are infinite universes multiple universes and in fact by definition infinite universes follow the 40k storyline and tech.

Lowmans
10-12-2009, 08:46
If you're an engineer then you know why the problem with LASERS isn't just that we "don't know how" it's related to quantum physics. You just can't build a perfect laser without perfect materials which are impossible.

as for the Speed of light. Not only do you need infinite energy but if you surpass the speed of light you actually start to have NEGATIVE mass or Rather a mass that's multiplied by a factor of i. So not really negative but imaginary. And the only way to get around this is to either mimic the tacheyon and travel backward through time, or warp space time around you which again requires energy levels that dwarf entire solar systems for small ships.

I Know people don't like it when you tell them this but some things are actually impossible.... at least in our universe. Other universes according to M-theory could work on different principals of physics. It is hereby that I propose that the 40k universe is one of these such worlds, and thus correct all fluff/science problems. Also because there are infinite universes multiple universes and in fact by definition infinite universes follow the 40k storyline and tech.


Oh Dear.

You appear to have quoted my post and then responded to statements I don't make.

Have another read.

Even if something is categorically, demonstrably impossible - so what!? It is not 'hard' sci fi!

Do you watch Star Trek and complain about the fact that certain effects and uses of the 'main deflector' appear to defy our understanding at various points through the series?

And if you have difficulty with the general statement -

"Futhermore, the view that something can't be done because we currently don't know how to do it or believe it can't be done is a bit shortsighted."

....

gendoikari87
10-12-2009, 12:38
No, some things are just scientifically impossible. Proven. The things that remain unknown are fairball but not the ones that have been mathmatically proven to be un-doable.