PDA

View Full Version : Chargers hit unintended troops



Mephistofeles
21-09-2006, 16:07
This may sound like a stupid question, but I have to know how it is supposed to work. I take an example so that you understand what I mean, not that good at explaining it:

I have a unit of Empire Spearmen standing in front of a unit of orcs. Beside the spearmen is a cannon. The orcs are not positioned completely straight in front of the spearmen and the cannon, but more like this:

_________________Orcs Orcs Orcs
____________________Orcs Orcs Orcs
_______________________Orcs Orcs Orcs
_________________________Orcs Orcs Orcs

Cannon___Spearmen
_________Spearmen
_________Spearmen
_________Spearmen

Well yeah, I think you get the picture. Now, the orcs want to charge the cannon, and so declare a charge against it. When they start their charge-move however, they will bump into the spearmen. Are the spearmen charged?

The book says "Charging a unit is the only way to get into combat with it, you cannot simply move them into base to base contact". Now, does that mean that the Orcs stop just in front of the spearmen? Or does this count as charging, and the spearmen will take the charge instead?

If the spearmen indeed count as charged, can they make a charge reaction? The book states that the charge reactions are declared when the charge is declared, and no charge has been declared against them?

Please help!

Atrahasis
21-09-2006, 16:35
You have insufficient movement to reach your target, so the charge fails.

Mephistofeles
21-09-2006, 16:44
I have? Why is that?

Atrahasis
21-09-2006, 16:58
Because you could wheel to avoid the spearmen, but that would leave you short of your target.

Mephistofeles
21-09-2006, 17:12
I can only make one wheel in one charge move right? So If I wheel to avoid the spearmen, you mean that I have no more whells left and therefore cannot reach the cannon?

I presume you don't mean in Inches, 'cause that just seems illogical..

DarkTerror
21-09-2006, 18:04
My understanding is that if you can't make it your intended target, no matter what the reason is, the charge fails. If you would be forced to run into the spearmen to make it to the cannon, the charge fails. No combat exists.

shartmatau
21-09-2006, 18:09
You are allowed to wheel towards the cannon, if you cant reach it because the spearmen get clipped then you failed your charge. If you can reach the cannon without touching the spearmen then your fine but you can only wheel once before making contact with the cannon.

Festus
21-09-2006, 18:38
Hi

So you say you are close enough?

Simple solution: WHeel to the right, until you can only hit the cannon and not the spearmen.

And yes, you can only wheel once, not twice or 643 times... :(

Festus

mageith
21-09-2006, 19:28
Well yeah, I think you get the picture. Now, the orcs want to charge the cannon, and so declare a charge against it. When they start their charge-move however, they will bump into the spearmen. Are the spearmen charged?
I think everyone agrees you can't hit the spearmen by accident.

However if the cannon flees you would probably hit them as enemy in the way.

As Festus indicates, it would not take much of a wheel, late in the move to hit the cannon.



The book says "Charging a unit is the only way to get into combat with it, you cannot simply move them into base to base contact". Now, does that mean that the Orcs stop just in front of the spearmen? Or does this count as charging, and the spearmen will take the charge instead?

You could end up next to the spearmen but then the cannon could try out its new grapeshot rules. :(



If the spearmen indeed count as charged, can they make a charge reaction? The book states that the charge reactions are declared when the charge is declared, and no charge has been declared against them?

They don't. If they did they could. If players could make undeclared charges against units that then could not make a charge reaction, they'd do it all the time. Our game would be a very much different game.

sliganian
21-09-2006, 20:01
Isn't there something about being able to contact two units on one charge? (no book handy)

The problem with the cannon is where does one 'draw the battleline'? What I mean is, if the Cannon crew were lined up in FRONT of the cannon at the time the charge was declared, would it not be possible for the Orcs to hit the extreme left crew model without a Wheel at all? (Sorry, hard to explain and I am not about to attempt ASCII pics)

mageith
21-09-2006, 20:29
Isn't there something about being able to contact two units on one charge? (no book handy)

There's several. In order to charge the spearmen and the cannon, the orcs would have to be in the flank (they apparently are not) and wide enough to take in both the cannon and spearmen (they apparently are not).

Of course they could break the spearmen and pursue into cannon.



The problem with the cannon is where does one 'draw the battleline'? What I mean is, if the Cannon crew were lined up in FRONT of the cannon at the time the charge was declared, would it not be possible for the Orcs to hit the extreme left crew model without a Wheel at all? (Sorry, hard to explain and I am not about to attempt ASCII pics)

Yikes! You might be right!

HOLD "The crew and any characters that might have joined the crew are lined up in front their war machine." (86)

This occurs before the success of the charge is determined.

I always played they crew didn't go forward until the machine itself successfully was charged.

eldrak
21-09-2006, 21:44
If you charge the spearmen and have a wide enough unit (and the cannon is positioned in an enough forward position) you can get them both.
You should always maximise models fighting on the original charge target.

Unwise
22-09-2006, 00:14
I would just charge them both at once, they look pretty lined up to me. This is one of those things which takes some 'adjustment' to get the most models in combat. It does not look bad in the above example though. To complicate matters further, which direction are the spearmen facing? You cannot do a double charge if it would make you hit in an illegal side...my brain hurts.

mageith
22-09-2006, 02:12
I would just charge them both at once, they look pretty lined up to me. This is one of those things which takes some 'adjustment' to get the most models in combat. It does not look bad in the above example though. To complicate matters further, which direction are the spearmen facing? You cannot do a double charge if it would make you hit in an illegal side...my brain hurts.

You can't just choose to charge two units because it would be good tactic. Otherwise everyone would do it. See multiple targets, page 24.

Also "To declare a charge, indicate which unit is charging and nominate one enemy unit that it is going to charge." (18) The ability to charge two units is merely an accomodation for "awkward cases". (24)

In the case at hand, if you can charge and reach the cannon but because of length constraints you might end up touching the spearmen, it would be OK. But if you charged the spearmen it appears the Orc unit wouldn't stretch far enough to pick up the cannon.

To a certain extent you can manipulate multiple target charges.

Also in the case, I assumed the spearmen were facing right. If they are facing up, the the Orcs should just charge their flank, break them most probably, and take out the cannon on the pursuit.

But the original question has to do with accidental bumping/charging and that just isn't in the rules.

Mage Ith

Milgram
22-09-2006, 07:52
in FRONT of the cannon means they stand between the cannon and the charger. else you could never charge a cannon from behind. :)

sliganian
22-09-2006, 13:00
in FRONT of the cannon means they stand between the cannon and the charger. else you could never charge a cannon from behind. :)

Yes, true. :)

What I *meant* was, if the Crew decides to Hold against a Charge, then the Crew are lined up facing the direction the charge is coming from.

In the case presented at the start of the thread, I was musing that if one did things in the proper sequencce, the whole situation with the Spearmen *may* have been avoided, as the Orcs could reach the far side of the 'crew line'. Maybe. Not being there at the time, the rest of us will just have to speculate.

mageith
22-09-2006, 14:49
What I *meant* was, if the Crew decides to Hold against a Charge, then the Crew are lined up facing the direction the charge is coming from.

In the case presented at the start of the thread, I was musing that if one did things in the proper sequencce, the whole situation with the Spearmen *may* have been avoided, as the Orcs could reach the far side of the 'crew line'. Maybe. Not being there at the time, the rest of us will just have to speculate.
Its worse than that. The 'fact' that the crew line up during the hold reaction means the charge distance is reduced by the width of crew.

DeathlessDraich
23-09-2006, 17:16
There's an important omission in the charge rules unless I've failed to find it somewhere.
Failed Charge: If the enemy has fled .. or if you have estimated your charge incorrectly ... the charge has failed"

Taking the rules as RAW - half distance for a failed charge, is moved only if these 2 conditions are met and not for other cases** of failed charges!

I'm sure this is not the intended rules.

The rules taken as RAW do not rqeuire that the Orc unit moves half its charge distance after failing.

** e.g. intervening terrain prevents models from forming any battleline or more than one wheel is required

Festus
23-09-2006, 18:37
Hi

...*or if you have estimated your charge incorrectly*... covers much more than just the guessing of distances. It covers wheels, terrain, other units in the way, factors arising in the compulsory movement sub-phase, etc.

Festus

eldrak
23-09-2006, 19:59
Interesting
That they line up in front of the war machine (perpendicular to the direction of the charge) means that you can hit them in the second turn with a M6 unit if they are deployed as far forward as possible (which many do).

DeathlessDraich
24-09-2006, 08:00
Its worse than that. The 'fact' that the crew line up during the hold reaction means the charge distance is reduced by the width of crew.

I'm not sure this is correct.
The rules does not explicitly state that charge distances are measured After the crew lines up.

Atrahasis
24-09-2006, 09:29
Hi

...*or if you have estimated your charge incorrectly*... covers much more than just the guessing of distances. It covers wheels, terrain, other units in the way, factors arising in the compulsory movement sub-phase, etc.

Not under the rules. The rules specifically state that your estimate of the charge is one of distance.


I'm not sure this is correct.
The rules does not explicitly state that charge distances are measured After the crew lines up.

CHarge reactions are resolved before charges are measured. The lining up is part of the Hold reaction for War Machine crew.

DeathlessDraich
24-09-2006, 13:00
CHarge reactions are resolved before charges are measured. The lining up is part of the Hold reaction for War Machine crew.

The 'lining up' is under the Hold subheading certainly but it is not mentioned that it "is part of the Hold reaction". The exact point where this lining up occurs is not specified in the charge and charge reaction timeline.

The diagram also does not clarify this

Atrahasis
24-09-2006, 18:13
The heading is "Hold". Anything under that heading is part of the "Hold" Reaction unless specifically stated otherwise.

Rioghan Murchadha
25-09-2006, 05:21
As much as it pains me to point out that this time Atrahasis is in fact correct, he is. Hold is a reaction, which falls under the 'Declaring Charge Responses' heading in the order of operations.

Since it's part of 'declare charges', and the order of operations is
1: Declare Charges
2: Rally Fleeing Troops
3: Compulsory Moves
4: Move Chargers
5: Remaining Moves

The crew lining up for their hold response definitely happens before measuring which occurs in part 4: Move Chargers.