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View Full Version : Space Marine recruitment method may eventually fail?



Essia
27-06-2005, 04:14
Considering marine aspirants are recruited before the boys reach puberty, it means every few generations the best examples of the male population will not be able to breed, leaving weaker males to produce the next generation.

the Aspirants are judged by their strength/courage etc, also by their genetic proposition to accepting the gene seed.

Wuld this mean in the long run the worlds the marines recruit from will eventuall become weaker as more and more aspirants fail under ther genetic alterations?

Instigation
27-06-2005, 04:45
I doubt it. The main reason been that I dont think that space marines recruit an entire generations worth of children from a world, only the very strongest and even out of those, only the ones who prove medically suitable and unlikely to reject any of the many surgical alterations that they will undergo.
Additionally not all chapters recruit like this and many recruit ordinary boys from civilized worlds or worlds where families have had recruits in every generation since the astartes arrived (for eg the Ultramarines). In fact I doubt that recruiting the most toughest and strongest child of a deathworld really makes much of a diffrence considering how much they are brainwashed and chemically altered and as such i think its just another backwards practice of some of the more savage and aloof chapters.
Also I can imagine that several of the more barbarous chapters that follow this sort of recruiting might concievably spark off tribal conflicts on the worlds that they recruit from in order to artificially induce natural selection and therefore make it easier to find their suitable candidates.

Khaine's Messenger
27-06-2005, 04:58
Considering marine aspirants are recruited before the boys reach puberty, it means every few generations the best examples of the male population will not be able to breed, leaving weaker males to produce the next generation.

Assuming that all superb physical specimens are taken? Aren't you further assuming that~
A) all superb physical specimens compete/are abducted
B) all superb physical specimens are considered psychologically compatible
C) all superb physical specimens successfully compete, and are not maimed, shamed, or otherwise disqualified yet still capable of developing their reproductive faculties (ie, not including those executed for passing the physical trials but failing psychological ones)
D) there does not exist the idea of a "second best" (further, that new "superb" specimens cannot be created from the recombination of factors relating to "unfit" specimens, ie how genetic one's superb nature is, etc.)
E) the Space Marines abduct/recruit from every generation from every tribe/city/etc. on the planet

It's theoretically possible, as many Space Marines recruit from feral/feudal worlds, for their recruitment prospects to start to look bleak (this very thing was supposedly happening to the DA in the Piscina system, although off the top of my head I seem to recall this was due more to psychological issues of the natives). If you recruit like the Doom Eagles (aheh), then it's quite likely you'd be left with diminishing populations, as well.

On the other hand, it's also quite likely that if a chapter were facing such prospects, they could attempt to strike out and take up some new stomping grounds....

Essia
27-06-2005, 10:18
Assuming that all superb physical specimens are taken? Aren't you further assuming that~
A) all superb physical specimens compete/are abducted
B) all superb physical specimens are considered psychologically compatible
C) all superb physical specimens successfully compete, and are not maimed, shamed, or otherwise disqualified yet still capable of developing their reproductive faculties (ie, not including those executed for passing the physical trials but failing psychological ones)
D) there does not exist the idea of a "second best" (further, that new "superb" specimens cannot be created from the recombination of factors relating to "unfit" specimens, ie how genetic one's superb nature is, etc.)
E) the Space Marines abduct/recruit from every generation from every tribe/city/etc. on the planet
I gues first of all it depends on the planet, to a chapter of 1000 marines and say 3 times that in serfs to support their marine master (many of which came from the recruitment process) in a hive world it would have been a drop of water in the ocean. However as marines pay no tilth to the Imperium, I doubt they are given such valuable worlds in general. Plus the fact they want warriors, which would suggest feral/feudal worlds where warroir culture is strong. so to maintain a chapter and keep up the losses in battles, there will be steady number of suitable aspirants drawn from the population.

I do not suggest they are ALL taken, but that it is going on continuously. to some first founding chapters this may mean before the herasy. I recall the angel of darkness novel where the apothecary gives a % success rate if the aspirants would likely accept the geneseed. Suppose those failed ones are put back into the population whicle the ones with high acceptance probability are taken away. the next time the marines come around the new aspirants will be sired by those the marines did not accept. this means there is selection pressure for those with higer probablity to accept the geneseed.

this is different to the physical/psychological aspect but still similar, as the failed ones return to the tribe to sire the gext generation. again it comes to population. If in very low populated worlds such as Fenris or the Salamander home world. Having these young men taken away do matter to the tribe's genepool.

Of course some of these traits may not lie in the male Y chromosome so would not matter...........


If you recruit like the Doom Eagles (aheh), then it's quite likely you'd be left with diminishing populations, as well.

How does the Doom Eagles recruit?

Randallw
27-06-2005, 11:17
Whoever wins a hanggliding race in a hurricane.

Adept
27-06-2005, 11:52
Okay, assuming that each Chapter recruits from only a single world, and only needs to replenish (on average) 15% of it's numbers, then every few generations they will take the best 150 young men they can get their hands on. Even in a tiny (read less than 10,000) global population, that isn't going to be enough to swing the gene-pool very far in any direction.

Remember, the fighting strength of a Marine Chapter is only 1,000 men.

athamas
27-06-2005, 12:08
also remember the chapter serfs probably have families, and they are they guys who did not become marines for one reason or another!

Khaine's Messenger
27-06-2005, 21:27
However as marines pay no tilth to the Imperium, I doubt they are given such valuable worlds in general.

Eh? Marines may not pay tithes, but they provide a valuable service....I see no reason for them to be "given" substandard worlds from which to recruit. At best, population pressures on their "homeworlds" would simply limit their ability to recruit, but only when they are pressured to induct a whole swathe of aspirants would they start to truly deplete the population of potential aspirants.


so to maintain a chapter and keep up the losses in battles, there will be steady number of suitable aspirants drawn from the population.

Assuming what casualty rates over what time periods? Even the Crimson Fists' recruitment practices after the whole Rynn's World affair haven't sped up simply because they suffered massive casualties.


but that it is going on continuously

Define "continuously"...?


Having these young men taken away do matter to the tribe's genepool.

Not really, because they will have siblings and relatives who are capable of passing on their traits. Because only a small segment of the overall population is even elligible to participate in marine recruitment, and that portion is not defined only by physiology, it's not exactly like you've got Space Marine siphoning off everyone. As long as they don't "over-farm," things will be quite all right, outside forces notwithstanding.


How does the Doom Eagles recruit?

I don't know if it was the exception to the rule, but in at least one circumstance, a whole pack of children from devastated villiages were herded together....and out of all of that, only one of them survived the trials (well, two really, but one of them was executed for not having the proper Doom Eagles mindset).

Brother Othorio
28-06-2005, 01:22
Eh? Marines may not pay tithes, but they provide a valuable service....I see no reason for them to be "given" substandard worlds from which to recruit.


i feel it should be pointed out at this juncture that just because a chapter is granted dominion over a planet/system doesnt mean that automatically becomes its main source of recruits, the Crimson Fists claim dominion over Rynn's World, yet they recieve the bulk of their recruits from the feral world of Blackwater in a nearby system..

Emperor's Light
28-06-2005, 09:54
The recruitment system does have something to do with chapter tradition. Imperial Fist successors seem to be in the habit of recruiting from multiple worlds. This actually seems to make the most sense. As you expand your recruitment pool, the pool of acceptable candidates likewise increase. These chapters can much better sustain fighting strength than chapters that recruit from a single, low population world.

Many chapters do seem to recruit only from their homeworld, however.

It wouldn't benefit the High Lords to grant Space Marine chapters worlds without a suitable candidate pool. After all, why bother founding a Space Marine chapter in the first place if you don't want it to fight well?

However, feral worlds may be ideal because they provide little production tithe but have hardy populations ideal for Space Marine recruitment.

Space Marine recruitment rate should be low enough even on low population worlds it shouldn't have sizeable negative impact of the gene pool, even considering those who don't survive. However, the "once per generation" recruitment rate is simply too low to be realistic, especially in so many stories only one or two candidates are taken each time. At that rate, a Space Marine chapter can only afford one or two permanent casualties every twenty years. Even expecting only ten permanent casualties every twenty years is way too optimistic, even for Space Marines.

As hardy as Space Marines are, their rate of losses has to be much, much higher than that considering they are almost constantly involved in combat operations. Recruiting once every five years and taking three to five each time would be more realistic, but still a bit of a stretch.

Adept
28-06-2005, 11:33
However, the "once per generation" recruitment rate is simply too low to be realistic, especially in so many stories only one or two candidates are taken each time. At that rate, a Space Marine chapter can only afford one or two permanent casualties every twenty years. Even expecting only ten permanent casualties every twenty years is way too optimistic, even for Space Marines.

I imagine most of the stories centre on a single village or group of villages. It would be a smart move on the part of the recruiting parties to take the top two or three contenders from each area, rather than take the top ten or twenty from one area. You end up with a higher average calibre of recruit that way.


As hardy as Space Marines are, their rate of losses has to be much, much higher than that considering they are almost constantly involved in combat operations. Recruiting once every five years and taking three to five each time would be more realistic, but still a bit of a stretch.

You are right. 15% was way out. Having said that, the number of recruits a Marine chapter wants compared to the average Imperial Guard regiment or even the average PDF, is so miniscule that any amount of genetic influence is going to be so miniscule as to be insignificant.

Olannon
28-06-2005, 16:54
it won't faIL... A CHAPTER is a 1000 men strong, and won't take enough men from a big industrialized world like Macragge to empty the population. And besides, nature always finds a way, if there's a lack of men, more boys will be born (which as been proved scientificly after WWII)

MorningStar
29-06-2005, 04:46
Yes suggesting the gene-pool of a planet will be deplited into a mass of weak feable people is slightly ridiculous, unless the population is very small. And from what I get from most of the fluff I've read most chapters take their initiates from multiple worlds if not systems. Also another fluff point is that alot of chapters even ones not recruiting from ferel and feudal worlds have very dangerous trails, even the Ultramarines.

Xyon
29-06-2005, 16:58
I havent read any of the other reply's to this so if somebody has already stated this, you know why. The marines don't always recruit before puberty, to the letter of the background, marines are recruited while they are still growing, which could mean anytime between the ages of birth and the mid 20's. It is far more likely that they recruit men before the end of puberty, around 16-18, as they would still have some growing to do, but also are better able to be judged on their physical strength, agility, and battle prowess. As i find it highly unlikely that 8-12 year-olds will have much battle experience. Which brings me to my point that its possible for people who are recruited to have children, ala the white scars, or any other chapter but on a smaller scale.

Just my two dollers

after reading the other reply's, you all have some good points too.

Xander-K
29-06-2005, 18:09
At that rate, a Space Marine chapter can only afford one or two permanent casualties every twenty years. Even expecting only ten permanent casualties every twenty years is way too optimistic, even for Space Marines.

wow, does that mean that each game of 40k is to represent several millenia of fighting over a battlefield not more than a few hundred metres long.

(just picture this happening :D )

Emperor's Light
29-06-2005, 19:54
wow, does that mean that each game of 40k is to represent several millenia of fighting over a battlefield not more than a few hundred metres long.

(just picture this happening :D )

Some of my opponents do take that long to play their turns. :eyebrows:

Although I would say in games of 40K models removed include both KIA and wounded. In the case of Space Marines, given their hardy physiology, most of those are probably wounded.

athamas
29-06-2005, 20:10
remember game statistics to fluff statistics are often way, way off!

zealousheretic
06-05-2006, 21:21
No kidding.

If you wanted to represent marines as being as tough as the fluff depicts, at the very least you'd give them Feel No Pain.

Melchiah
06-05-2006, 21:32
Input:2 cents.
Marines are the best of the best of the best of the best.......
Our planet,ie earth. Has how many sports and compitions (edit, spelling, im sure its still worng)? and taking small members from that groups from the whole world, this is what the think 40 billion, Ultramar has how much? BT are a fleet chapter they take where they want?
No i dont think it would fail persay but would it hurt that much to lower the standard of recurtment when their druged up and remoded the genetic system so much that they arent even "human" anyways

Kage2020
07-05-2006, 04:47
One could actually argue that the Space Marines were, in the long run, designed to fail. It would make a certain amount of sense, all things considered.

Kage

EarthScorpion
07-05-2006, 10:37
In adition, there are also the sisters of any sucessful candidate, who will remain on their planets to breed, who will still possess the required genetic fitness and compatibility.

minibutmighty
07-05-2006, 12:57
One could actually argue that the Space Marines were, in the long run, designed to fail. It would make a certain amount of sense, all things considered.

Kage

That is also true. As mighty s the astartes are, their numbers are so few and their standards so exacting that combat losses on such a scale would easily prevent rogue chap[ters being a major threat.

Are we talking great crusade era (I am talking about Loken and Sigismunds debate as to wether they would any longer have a purpose after the crusade in Horus Rising) or are we talking post heresy where chapter size limits and increasingly dangerous recruitment were introduced as a sort of multiple redundancy system preventing large numbers of heretics?

Daemon*hunter
25-02-2007, 19:59
I dont think they would take enough people to wipe out a generation!!!

Carnelian
25-02-2007, 22:00
Have you guys been reading the Damnatus Crusade comics that are coming out at the moment? In the first issue, they detail a recruitment of a new marine into the Black templars chapter.
SPOLIERS AHEAD!

The BT land on a warrior planet, where they pitch lots of a tribe's warriors against each other until most are dead. After this they set a huge lion type thing on the survivors. Out of the eventual survivors, 4 of them are thougt tough enough to take through the training. Out of these guys at least one doesn't make it through to becoming a neophyte.
So as you can see the Black Templars have an extremely wasteful way of picking their recruits, because they wiped out the strongest warriors of a single tribe down to about 4 men, who they stole.
But seeing as the BT have no particular homeworld, this shouldn't be a recurring problem, but I doubt that all chapters can be this brutal in their recruitment (although if their planet has a population in the billions this shouldn't be a problem).

Kandarin
25-02-2007, 22:26
I'd imagine this is a problem sometimes, but only on a very small scale.

Perhaps some Chapters prefer to recruit from certain tribes. By taking their best warriors, they gradually weaken those tribes until they are overrun by other tribes. The Marines look at this, shrug their shoulders, and recruit from the victorious tribes. Repeat ad infinitum.

Brother Siccarius
26-02-2007, 06:15
also remember the chapter serfs probably have families, and they are they guys who did not become marines for one reason or another!

I'm only aware of two chapters in which this is not true;

1. Space Wolves:

A - you fail the bonding with your wolf spirit and manage to not kill yourself, you end up as a wulfen and spend the rest of your days with the other wandering wulfen.
B - you pass the phsycological bonding with your wolf spirit but are otherwise stopped from becomming a space marine, you are turned into a servitor as you cannot be allowed to go around blabbing that they aren't the gods that the natives think they are. You're also a convenient farm for fresh geneseed since you already have many of the implants in you.


2. Black Templars:

A. You're judged unworthy in battle or training, you become a servitor.

B. You're judged unfit physiologically, you're personality is wiped, and you become a servitor.

C. You fall in battle as a neophyte, the apothecary wants to keep you till your gene-seed is fully grown and recoverable. You're brought back with technology replacing most of your body, your personality is wiped, you become a servitor.

Remember that most chapters recruit from multiple worlds. Black Templars have no home world and recruit from multiple chapter monestaries. Ultramarines control and entire segmentum of the galaxy and recruit from any number of worlds there-in. Dark Angels have no homeworld and work much as the BT do, but secretively. The normal marine might survive 200+ years in service, and many chapters don't attempt to expand their ranks too much or will only be able to recruit a squad out of each batch of recruits.

In the end, the 40th millennium is a tough place, you need lots of servitors.

Varilone31
05-03-2007, 00:43
If a generation is swept of its strongest the next generation will not be weaker that is left to them and them alone size is a trait, strength is earned.