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macbeth
01-04-2005, 08:40
I know that BL novels are to be taken cautiously as far as official fluff is concerned, but in this case, Graham McNeil is one of the members of the game designing team, so...

I cannot understand the story of this guy. What is he really? An Imperial Fist who turned to the Iron Warriors? A mixeture between the geneseeds of the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists?

I don't understand how it could possibly work...

BoomerSub
01-04-2005, 09:04
He's an Iron Warrior who was made with captured Imperial Fist geneseed.

Despite Fabius Bile's efforts, geneseed is still hard to come by for the traitor Legions and they're not above taking it from fallen enemies.

-PK

t-tauri
01-04-2005, 09:47
It's nature or nurture. Is it the genetic information from the geneseed or the upbringing which makes someone turn to Chaos?

macbeth
01-04-2005, 11:45
Apparently it's not the geneseed, as there are numerous examples of loyal marines comming from traitor legions (Captain Garro of the Death Guard, isn't it?)...

Sojourner
01-04-2005, 12:26
It is conceivable though, given that psychic talent tends to run in families, that those with traitor geneseed are more likely to develop an affinity for Chaos.

macbeth
01-04-2005, 14:59
I would say that it has to do with mutations.
Mutating marines tend to be regarded as ennemies by the Imperium, and thus push them to chaos. Chaos marines are always willing to help their brethren who are persecuted by the Imperium...

gunhed
01-04-2005, 16:23
It's nature or nurture. Is it the genetic information from the geneseed or the upbringing which makes someone turn to Chaos?

And the whole idea of the Storm of Iron book was that the Iron Warriors capture a secret hoard of Imperium Gene Seed to give to Abbadon to make new marines.

I suppose it keeps Fabius Bile off the streets :D

Xhalax
02-04-2005, 00:36
Chaos does seem to be more a nuture thing rather than a nature thing really.
Plus there are cases, especially during the Horus Heresy of members of the Traitor Legions fighting the good fight rather than turning against the Emperor with their battle brothers.

As for Honsou, as was already said, he was created using an Imperial Fists geneseed rather than an Iron Warriors purely by luck (or unluck in his cases as everyone holds it against him) that he drew the short straw and got given an IF geneseed.

Though it begs the question, how many 'pure-blood' IWs are left?

Brunificus
02-04-2005, 00:56
Chaos does seem to be more a nuture thing rather than a nature thing really.

Couldn't agree more, just take a look at the Unfleshed in Black Sun Dark Sky.

Xhalax
02-04-2005, 01:27
Exactly!
They are the perfect example of that fact! 13th Company Sapce Wolves are pretty good examples too.
10,000 years in the EoT and they're still fighting the good fight. Plus its rumoured that the Curse of the Wulfen occures as a kinda 'anit-Chaos' device. That they turn rather than fall into Chaos. Though how far that's true, I'm not eniterly sure.

gunhed
03-04-2005, 10:21
I can see that, but I'm sure that one or two of the more puritanical inquisitors would see someone completely mutating into some kind of werewolf as more chaosy than not, whatever the reason/outcome.

Xhalax
03-04-2005, 13:42
Well they're the Inquisition....what to they know?!?!
Plus, if memory serves, isn't the curse of the Wulfen supposed (and I use that term as loosely as i can) to be a secret known only to the Chapter?

Delicious Soy
03-04-2005, 14:36
I believe rumours have been doing the rounds for several millenia, plus the dissolution of the Wolf Brothers chapter due to genetic instability is a matter of record. I'd say after that the Inquisition like to keep an eye out for them. Downwind of them of course :p

Rich
03-04-2005, 15:32
Well they're the Inquisition....what to they know?!?!
Plus, if memory serves, isn't the curse of the Wulfen supposed (and I use that term as loosely as i can) to be a secret known only to the Chapter?

In the times of the heresy, when the Imperial Army included beastmen and all sorts of abhumans as standard, I expect that the wulfen were well known about. It would make sence that the Inquisition and Adeptus Terra would keep track of their memory and be vigilant for their return, so they at least would have an idea of the curse's existance.

inquisitorkane
03-04-2005, 23:13
Though it begs the question, how many 'pure-blood' IWs are left?

The answer, as far as I would venture, is not too many. As with all the other Traitor legions, the original IWs are going to have been whittled down to a few hundred, possibly thousand, hardcore veterans. these guys make up officer corps and inner circle members. I'm sure that new IW (ones created either from geneseed engineered by Bile or capture geneseed, or possibly seed engineered by the IW themselves) outnumber original ones. 10,000 + years of warfare has a way of thinning the herd.

However, I would think that the IW would have a higher number of original warriors left than other legions, due to their more conservative tactics. Legions such as the WE, who are more likely to take risks, or legions that have had a series of major defeats, such as the BL, are going to have much fewer original traitors left.

Delicious Soy
04-04-2005, 07:45
In addition to that IW were a large legion that was widespread, meaning that large numbers of them would have been harder to pin down and destroy as the fled to the EOT.

macbeth
04-04-2005, 07:57
And don't forget that their technology is more advanced than the one of the other chaos legions. Where the BL, WB or NL have to take riske, the IW can send tanks with mechanical devices instead of living troops...
THat must have had an influence on their true number.

Rich
04-04-2005, 08:07
Were the IWs ever as large as the other legions though?

Personally, I think there is a hard core of original veterans who have just got damn good at surviving. After that, then it is either new recruits or converted loyalists (like the red corsairs). However, because time flows differently in the eye, it is possible that some of the members of the chaos legions have (to their minds) only just fled to the eye, and are fresh from the heresy - they would maintain all of the undiminished malice and spite, but would perhaps lack the experience of the 'hard-core' traitors.

Delicious Soy
04-04-2005, 09:48
You also have to realise the diference between fluff and games, in the fluff a large scale raid by any SM unit would maybe result in the death of a battle brother or 5. In a protracted offensive (ie several years) they may lose up to half a company. Casualties would also be widespread across 30+ Grand Companies across each individuals periodic campaigning, and given the largely coherent command structure of the IW, Perturbo as an excellent logistician would manage his losses fairly well.

inquisitorkane
04-04-2005, 15:47
True, very true. But as I said, even with the best of tactics, your luck can't go 10,000 years without taking numerous turns for the worse. That said, I do believe that the IWs were one of the larger legions to begin with, so maybe the number of original traitors is somewhere in the low thousands. Still, not many, but more than my first estimate.

salty
04-04-2005, 16:26
In addition to this, you have to take into account that the number of Iron Warriors removed as "casualties" in a game does not represent the number that die. A casualty in gaming terms is someone who is either dead or suitably incapacitated to play no further part in the battle. In fluff terms, he may only have a punctured third lung, or second heart failure. Therefore, they do not take so many "death" casualties as you would expect.

Salty :)

Samoth
05-04-2005, 11:33
In storm of iron, wasnt it only honsou's company that were halfbreed's? The rest, the majority, were pure blood?

Wraith
05-04-2005, 12:01
In addition to this, you have to take into account that the number of Iron Warriors removed as "casualties" in a game does not represent the number that die. A casualty in gaming terms is someone who is either dead or suitably incapacitated to play no further part in the battle. In fluff terms, he may only have a punctured third lung, or second heart failure. Therefore, they do not take so many "death" casualties as you would expect.

I think it's fair to say that any model killed by a weapon twice it's toughness, a deamon weapon, a force weapon, a psychic vortex, a C'tan... is 100% dead.

Rich
05-04-2005, 15:58
Unless they are incapacitated - in 40k, you can loose your legs and still recieve bionics to repair the damage. Generally speaking though, I agree.

Nazguire
09-04-2005, 00:11
If the Horus Heresy Art Books are anything to go by then each Legion could must 100,000+ Space Marines.
I'm quite sure I read that the Iron Warriors were a larger Legion, but were always pre-heresy taking the most casualties due to the garrison duties they were assigned by the Emperor.
So if that is the case, then it is quite possible that post-heresy, there are more Iron Warrior thoroughbreds then we think, maybe 10,000+...maybe 40,000+. Being one of the more 'sane' Legions, they would have some sense of preservation, being siege artists of the highest degree.

Rich
09-04-2005, 10:49
I think that the Iron Warriors got decimated at the Seige of Terra though, where they were beaten by Dorn and the Imperial Fists - throwing your men at the most powerful fortress in the galaxy would quite quickly reduce your effective fighting capacity.

I'm assuming that the the captured IF geneseed used to create Honsou was that won at the Iron Cage? If so, he would be almost as old as the other traitor marines in any case, so is not by any means a mere stripling!

malika
09-04-2005, 10:52
I dont think they got decimated at the Siege of the Imperial Palace, the walls got breached, I think the Iron Warriors used meaningless warriors as cannon flodder for this I think.

Rich
09-04-2005, 11:29
I doubt it tbh. The Iron Warriors were comprehensively defeated, and would not have fled to the eye so readily if they had not been badly mauled in the fighting.

Samoth
09-04-2005, 14:59
Afaik, they were one of the few legions to win they're battle. They breached the walls of terror, and then were fightinh IF's when everyone else ran, so they did too.

Rich
09-04-2005, 16:47
Afaik, they were one of the few legions to win they're battle. They breached the walls of terror, and then were fightinh IF's when everyone else ran, so they did too.

The IWs were charged with taking the Imperial Palace and they were repulsed. Therefore they failed - they tried to take humanities greatest citadel and were defeated.

Tom
09-04-2005, 22:06
Aye, but they sure put a decent sized dent in it.

And they'll be back.

DantesInferno
10-04-2005, 00:18
I think that the Iron Warriors got decimated at the Seige of Terra though, where they were beaten by Dorn and the Imperial Fists - throwing your men at the most powerful fortress in the galaxy would quite quickly reduce your effective fighting capacity.


It seems totally out of character for the IWs to throw their men at the walls of the palace. First of all, the Legion wasn't there in its entirety (due to being split up time and again during the Crusade), so they wouldn't have the numbers to be front-line troops. Secondly, there are millions of other cultists, daemons and traitor marines there, why would the IW need to charge at the walls? They would be for the most part doing what they do best, directing the siege efforts. There were the World Eaters to charge madly at the walls, and the Death Guard to trudge up and consolodate the position. Just seems quite unlike the IW to behave as you suggest.

Nazguire
10-04-2005, 01:04
The IWs were charged with taking the Imperial Palace and they were repulsed. Therefore they failed - they tried to take humanities greatest citadel and were defeated.


Hmmmm...methinks they didn't lose so convincingly as you said. They knocked down the Walls, forcing the defenders back to the Inner Sanctum. When the rest ran, the Iron Warriors fought a series of running battles. Basically they fortified themselves and made it as hard and as bloody as possible for them to be pulled out. Like a fish hook, the more you pull at it the wrong way, the more it takes with it.
They also proved that the walls weren't unbreachable and were in fact subject to demolition like any fortress. Perturabo also proved that he and his Legion were worth far more than the garrison duties they were given before the Heresy.
The Iron Warriors didn't destroy/take the ENTIRE Palace, but it was largely they who were responsible for the progress the Traitors made. Without the Titans of the Deaths Head Legion and the other one I can't remember, and the Iron Warriors, the Battle might not have gone as well for them as it did for the most part.

Inquisitor Engel
10-04-2005, 03:46
Ok, here's my take on the original Legions size.

The Ultramarines were known to be far and away the largest, both from the time of the Great Crusade, to the formation of the Chapters. The Ultramarines split into 23 Chapters, giving us approximates 23,000-25,000 Marines, taking into account command squads, the Librarium, Command Squads, vehicle crews and other 'support' marines that don't make up the "10 companies of 100 infantry"

I would hazard a guess that it was around 30,000to 35,000 Ultramarines at their height, and that most Legions hovered around 10,000 to 20,000, with the Emperor's Children being the smallest.

The Heresy decimated virtually every Legion, it's safe to assume that most lost a significant portion, if not more of their number. As the Iron Warriors were probably larger than some other Legions, with each garrison doing basically nothing and recruiting from world to world, that there are still a significant number of original Iron Warriors running around, though I would say that they are all at least Aspiring Champions by today.

Nazguire
10-04-2005, 04:10
I would hazard a guess that it was around 30,000to 35,000 Ultramarines at their height, and that most Legions hovered around 10,000 to 20,000, with the Emperor's Children being the smallest.


Hmmm...the Emperors' Children had 30 Grand Companies...so if each Grand Company had 1000 members, then they were almost the same size as the Ultramarines.

It could also depend on whether you take the Horus Heresy Art Books as canon or not.

Inquisitor Engel
10-04-2005, 06:49
Hmmm...the Emperors' Children had 30 Grand Companies...so if each Grand Company had 1000 members, then they were almost the same size as the Ultramarines.
See below:


It could also depend on whether you take the Horus Heresy Art Books as canon or not.
They look pretty, but I would say as Fluff they're not too reliable. After all, the Emperor's Children was in the triple digits at the start of the Great Crusade. To get it up to 30,000 in just a couple thousand years is, even inducting adults as Space Marines, even in terms of 40k, is rediculous.

Alternatively, one could just double all of my estimates, except for the Emperor's Children and have the Legions halved and more! See... it just gets silly. :(

Delicious Soy
10-04-2005, 08:01
To get it up to 30,000 in just a couple thousand years is, even inducting adults as Space Marines, even in terms of 40k, is rediculous.Not really. Aside from a few legions (Worldeaters off the top of my head) everytime a primarch was discovered a massive recruiting drive began on the homewrold, to the point that several Chapters of a legion would be raised before moving on. During the heresey the process of converting a man into a marine was alot shorter and standards were not as harsh as they are in the 40k modern day. Raising marines was far easier because the restrictions weren't there, which you could then extrapolate as to why CSM's just won't fade away. Their methods of implantation may be more primitive and dangerous, but they can carry it out at a faster rate (so long as geneseed supplies are maintained)

On the IW siege of Terra: IIRC they carried out the siege as per their usual methodical method, rather than a frenzied assault (which is what the Worldeaters did; and were actually first through the defenses). They breached the defenses, which is what they were charged with doing, forcing those defending the palace all the way back to the final line of defense, the Eternity Gate. They achieved the mission set before them.

Nitpick-o-rama: The Emperors Children numbers (in terms of grand companies) is given in their IA article, not the HH books.

More general SM number post heresy: During that period of reformation the wars of the heresey were still being waged, many of them bitterly fought sieges to take out those bases still held by the traitors. The Ultramarines would have sufferred appalling casualties during these campagins as the main legion left intact. This would also explain why the Dark Angels only split into four, they would have probably been second largest (and still would have had significant numbers after half the legion turned). Of course, much of it is some inability to count. Look at the miniscule forces in the 3rd Armageddon war, 2 - 3 million troops total (including the astartes and battle sisters)? Germany threw more at the Russians in WWII

Samoth
10-04-2005, 13:54
Nazguire said what I meant, they were worth their wait in gold, compared to the ec's who went off to rape and pillage.

I'll say it again - in storm of iron, wasn't honsou's company the one and only half breed company present?

inquisitorkane
10-04-2005, 17:31
Perhaps it was the only company made up entirely of half-breeds, while the other companies had smatterings of half-breeds throughout.

Nazguire
12-04-2005, 09:12
A couple of thousand years to get 30,000 isn't too insane to believe. While the Legions roamed across the galaxy they had a massive recruitment session. So they were recruiting constantly from their main world and every planet in between. Considering the Ultramarines had 25,000 from only the Macragge System mainly, it isn't too hard to believe the Iron Warriors or Emperors Children (the Emperors Children, from what I can tell, being one of the more active Legions) to boost their numbers incredibly.

Sojourner
12-04-2005, 10:03
Recall that Space Marine recruitment in the Imperium involves laborious replication and implantation of gene-seed now that the original source is not available.

The Traitor Primarchs are still alive.

alterion
12-04-2005, 10:29
hmm i would hardly say alive in the conventional sense of the word.. i think that they are pretty much out of it except thta GW hasn't found a way to kill em off yet..

DantesInferno
12-04-2005, 10:53
Recall that Space Marine recruitment in the Imperium involves laborious replication and implantation of gene-seed now that the original source is not available.

The Traitor Primarchs are still alive.

Yes, but can you imagine asking Angron for some of his genetic material?

Delicious Soy
12-04-2005, 12:36
Yes, but can you imagine asking Angron for some of his genetic material?Fabius Bile claims to know how to create new primarchs, he would have had to have conducted his research somehow.

M@L@L
12-04-2005, 13:38
Hmmm, the Honsou thing was never really explained in either Storm of Iron or Dead sky black sun. I speculate that he was given the geneseed of the Iron warriors and a little of the fists to fill in the gaps as back during pre heresy times, the legions weren't so strict in their methods of recruitment of marine creation.

Typhus is an example as he was a human with some of the blood of the warlord race, who once ruled Barbarus, within him. Nowadays such a thing happening is unthinkable so it just goes to show that the imperium brought most of it's problems on itself back then. Ha!

Nazguire
14-04-2005, 08:43
Hmmm, the Honsou thing was never really explained in either Storm of Iron or Dead sky black sun. I speculate that he was given the geneseed of the Iron warriors and a little of the fists to fill in the gaps as back during pre heresy times, the legions weren't so strict in their methods of recruitment of marine creation.

Typhus is an example as he was a human with some of the blood of the warlord race, who once ruled Barbarus, within him. Nowadays such a thing happening is unthinkable so it just goes to show that the imperium brought most of it's problems on itself back then. Ha!

They in all likelihood wouldn't have known that he was a half-blood human. In those days it was all about recruiting recruiting and recruiting. Typhus i think would still have turned with the rest of the Death Guard and the Primarch so I don't see your point.

Back then they also would have used full gene-seed having the original sources alive and well e.g. Primarchs. They weren't as strict but they still had pride to as not use other gene-seed of the other Legions.

It was possible that he was given the gene-seed way after the Heresy and Iron Cage incident, when Perturabo became a Daemon Prince and his genetic material wasn't so...reliable

Ka'agg
14-04-2005, 23:04
I think Honsou was of the IW homeworld and Fist gene-seed, thats why he's a half breed.

macbeth
16-04-2005, 09:48
The thing which troubles me is taht, when you read Dead Sky Black Sun, it seems to imply (at least as far as I understand) that Honsou fought during the Heresy. At that time, Perturabo was still a mortal, his geneseed was still usable, and thus there was no need of using the one of their fiercest rivals...

Tom
16-04-2005, 22:24
Nah, honsou's referred to by the Warsmith and Forrix as being significantly younger in SoI.

demon
04-03-2006, 15:45
Honsou was a son of Olympia. So he was recruited from Olympian genestock just as the other grand company leaders.

However he was implanted not with Iron Warriors geneseed, but the geneseed that Perturabo took from the Imperial Fists' corpses after the battle of the Iron Cage - a trap he laid for his arch enemy Rogal Dorn whom Perturabo was insanely jealous of. Too many times the Emperor named Rogal Dorn as the greatest siege master of his armies. Too many times left behind to garrison conquered worlds while Dorn lay siege to & conquered swathes of fortified space. The recovering of the Imperial Fist geneseed from that battle was the event that secured his daemonhood. This, the use of the loyalist geneseed was done as an insult to their mortal enemies the Imperial Fists who were unable to function as a chapter for 20 years after the engagement.