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Dragon of the Pants
27-09-2006, 16:59
I know there's a rule that says if you have a hand weapon and shield you get +2 to your save instead of just +1, but does that also apply to characters using a hand weapon and an enchanted shield?

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 17:02
Under the 7th edition rules, yes.

Dragon of the Pants
27-09-2006, 17:07
What about is the character is using a magic weapon?

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 17:16
No, it must be a hand weapon (or a magic weapon that specifically says it is a hand weapon).

Dragon of the Pants
27-09-2006, 17:21
Ah, all right. (There are magic weapons that specify that they are hand weapons? I always assumed a one-handed magic weapon could count as a "hand weapon".

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 17:35
"Hand Weapon" is a specific type of weapon which encompasses many types of weapon, and has special rules (the "parry" bonus and the ability to be used in combaination with each other for +1 attack).

Magic weapons have no type unless specified in their rules.

Dragon of the Pants
27-09-2006, 17:37
Ah, all right. Thanks for clarifying. (You're sure the parrying works with an Enchanted Shield though?)

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 17:39
Yes, I'm certain. A shield is a shield, whether magoical or not, and the parry bonus is a property of the hand weapon when used with a shield.

Dragon of the Pants
27-09-2006, 17:43
Excellent, now both my Exalted's have 1+ saves. Thanks.

g0ddy
27-09-2006, 17:56
So then other magic shields would qualify?

- g0ddy

ZomboCom
27-09-2006, 17:57
So then other magic shields would qualify?

- g0ddy

Until an FAQ denounces it, yes.

Which is likely to happen soon.

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 18:04
Until an FAQ denounces it, yes.

Which is likely to happen soon.

I doubt it. Jervis et al seem very keen on RAW, and RAW says magic shields qualify.

Dragon of the Pants
27-09-2006, 18:46
What is RAW?

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 19:24
Rules As Written.

An excuse not to do any rules support, the de facto state of rules support at GW anyway.

ZomboCom
27-09-2006, 21:23
I doubt it. Jervis et al seem very keen on RAW, and RAW says magic shields qualify.

Yes, but so did the RAW in the 6th ed book. It was only in an FAQ that it was pointed out that magical shields didn't provide the benefit.

TheWarSmith
27-09-2006, 21:34
nice to know it's possible to get a 1+ save on foot as a chaos warrior.

You can no longer combine the enchanted shield with other magic armours though, right?(stock chaos armour being an exception)

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 21:47
Yes, but so did the RAW in the 6th ed book. It was only in an FAQ that it was pointed out that magical shields didn't provide the benefit.

GW's policy in 6th was not RAW.

They have specifically stated that rules clarifications will ONLY be given where the rules are so confusing as to be unworkable.

Kadrium
27-09-2006, 21:56
Can anyone give an example of a magic weapon that counts as a hand weapon? I do believe you all, i've just never seen such a weapon in the BRB or any of the army rule books me or my friends have. I'm sure I'm just missing it, but I'd like to know if someone can point me in the right direction.

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 22:10
The Sword of the Quest.

Kadris
27-09-2006, 22:32
so, if im reading this right, my chaos warriors on foot with a shield and hand weapon have 3+ save all around, but 2+ in close combat to units in front of them. that right? taking it from pg 56.

Dragon of the Pants
27-09-2006, 22:39
Chaos warriors have a base 5+ save, so shield would bring them to 4+ and 3+ in close combat. UNless they're chosen, in which case, yeah, 2+.

Kadris
27-09-2006, 22:45
i thought chaos armor (warrior armor) was 4+ base, thats what my army book says on pg 24.
or is there an addendum i dont know about?

Crispus
27-09-2006, 22:47
Chaos warriors comes with heavy armour unless they are chosen in wich case thay have chaos armour.

Krusk
27-09-2006, 22:47
Is there some balance reason that dictates that being able to use say, a magic sword with a shield of some sort is beardy, or too powerful? I have always wondered exactly why you couldn't do that.

TheWarSmith
27-09-2006, 22:51
chaos warriors w/ hand weapon shield get a 4+/3+
chosen chaos warriors w/ hand weapon shield get a 3+/2+

NOTHING changes from 6th to 7th as far as chaos warriors go(except no parry bonus on the sides/rear)

My comment about chaos was about chaos CHARACTERS in chaos armour with enchanted shields and hand weapons.

Atrahasis
27-09-2006, 22:53
Consistency :P

No weapons retain their mundane properties once magical unless stated.

Kadris
27-09-2006, 23:34
Chaos warriors comes with heavy armour unless they are chosen in wich case thay have chaos armour.

ah, thanks (im new to the game if you cant tell)

Black Behemoth
02-10-2006, 19:30
Wait, so if Enchanted Shields can get the parrying bonus, that means that a model would get +3 to a save if used in conjunction with the hand weapon? Can it be combined with armor?

Mephistofeles
02-10-2006, 20:09
Enchanted Shield: 5+ save
Parry Bonus with that: 4+ save
With Light Armour: 3+ save
With Heavy Armour: 2+ save
In full plate or CA: 1+ save

robertsjf
02-10-2006, 20:20
The Sword of the Quest.

?que? Is this a Brettonian magic item?

Karhedron
02-10-2006, 20:54
Can anyone give an example of a magic weapon that counts as a hand weapon? I do believe you all, i've just never seen such a weapon in the BRB or any of the army rule books me or my friends have. I'm sure I'm just missing it, but I'd like to know if someone can point me in the right direction.
I believe that in the new O&G book, several magic weapons now count as "Choppas" in addition to their magical properties. The book also states that choppas can be combined with shields for the parrying bonus so presumably the same applies to these new magic choppas.

NakedFisherman
02-10-2006, 21:41
Sword of the Quest.

Griefbringer
03-10-2006, 09:25
?que? Is this a Brettonian magic item?

Yes. It can be used one-handed or two-handed, and when used one-handed it counts as a hand weapon.

Highborn
03-10-2006, 11:25
Magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specified in the description of the weapon

So no, not unless it says something like 'When used one handed, the Sword of the Quest counts as a hand weapon and may be used to gain the parry bonus in conjunction with a shield" or something to that effect.

Atrahasis
03-10-2006, 12:26
So no, not unless it says something like 'When used one handed, the Sword of the Quest counts as a hand weapon and may be used to gain the parry bonus in conjunction with a shield" or something to that effect.

Sword of the Quest:

"May be used as either a hand weapon or a great weapon, decided at the start of combat as normal."

If this is not special permission for the SotQ to use the mundane rules of hand weapons and great weapons, what is the point in giving the choice?

In other words, if choosing to use it as a great weapon grants "+2S, strikes last, requires 2 hands" then using it as a hand weapon must grant "fighting with a hand weapon and shield".

You cannot have it both ways.

T10
03-10-2006, 12:39
Agreed.

-T10

Festus
03-10-2006, 13:19
Seconded

Festus

Latro
03-10-2006, 13:56
Thirded ... yes I know, I'm bored :p

robertsjf
03-10-2006, 15:20
So the Dwarven Rune of Flight where in the 2nd paragraph it talks about the weapon being treated as a normal hand weapon means that any rune weapon with that rune can parry with a shield?

Kotobuki
03-10-2006, 15:24
The way you're describing it, yes.