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odmiller
28-09-2006, 06:11
After reading the Dawn of War series, specifically the last 2, it seems that all signs are pointing to the Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons successors. Now this has often been postulated and discarded as impossible, but the last two books almost hit you over the head the supporting evidence.

As a general recap.

General Background
- Blood Ravens have a very high number of Librarians
- Blood Ravens are continually thisrting for knowledge, to the point that it's come many times to the Inquisition's notice
- Blood Ravens don't know their Primarch, just their Father Librarian
- Their history has been purposefully obscured
- One squad disappeared into the Eye of Terror, led by their Librarian, in search of knowledge

Revealed in Ascension
- Blood Ravens in the far past built a recruiting world outpost on top of an earlier marine outpost
- This earlier marine outpost was built during the time of the Heresy. It was built by marines in Red Armor (T Sons, Blood Angels, or word bearers?).
- These marines were able to work with the Eldar to set magic and psychic wards to lock a Necron force in Psychic Stasis
- These Heresy Era marines were tasked by the Eldar with guarding this galaxy wide threat, but they mysteriously left abandoned the planet and it was never recorded again in Imperial records until the Blood Ravens took it back over
- Finally, the Eldar still remember working with the Heresy Era marines, and mistake the Blood Ravens as being one and the same

Revealed in the Tempest
- The Blood Ravens can field entire squads of Librarians and even have a secret inner circle of Librarians sort of like the DA Deathwing, who hold knowledge not spread throughout the rest of the Chapter
- The Blood Ravens resent the Imperial Fists, and even have a secret tome written about the un-founding, explaining how those Founding chapters aren't necessarily all they're cracked up to be
- The Blood Ravens Father Librarian Vidya was known to Arhiman of the Thousand Sons
- Arhiman hints that the Blood Ravens Librarians' bear the same color as the T-Sons as more than a cooincidence, it's based on the Rubric of Arhiman
- Ahriman is intimately familiar with the details of the founding of the Blood Ravens, but doens't explain how
- Ahriman of the Thousand Sons, the Eldar and the Harlequins, and the Blood Ravens of old and their Father Librarian are all very linked in the ancient times


So, here's my theory based on all this circumstantial evidence...

1) The Thousand Sons were the marines working with the Eldar to secure the Necron during the Heresy. This never came to notice in the rest of the Imperium either because of the start of the Heresy, orbecause they kept it secret. This is why these "red marines" would leave their responsibilities to gurd one of the greatest threats in the universe....they were fighting the rest of the Imperium and were driven into the eye.

2) The Blood Ravens were founded before or during the Heresy by a Senior Librarian of the Thousand Sons. Whether he (Father Vidya) split from the Thousand Sons before over the ends and means in the pursuit of knowledge, or the split did not occur until the Heresy is unknown. It could be that they were a splinter known to be loyal by the powers that be and were allowed to found a new Chapter, or it could be that they had already separated themselves.

3) Father Vidya had many of the same studious, searching tendencies as his old Legion, but while the T Sons turned down the evil road in anger and to cure the Rubric, his searches of knowledge remained benign.

4) He worked again with the Eldar to craft another powerful anti-Necron weapon, stored in the Blood Raven's battle barge and to lock the Necron in another place in the galaxy.

5) Although his passion for research and the rituals were maintained, Vidya's actual knowledge were gradually buried over time, but unlike all the other Chapters, their origins were deliberately obscured, for obvious reasons.

Sooo, what do you think?

cailus
28-09-2006, 06:40
- This earlier marine outpost was built during the time of the Heresy. It was built by marines in Red Armor (T Sons, Blood Angels, or word bearers?).

I'm pretty sure that Heresy era Word Bearers are black. Plus they embraced Chaos worship before the heresy and the Edlar would not work with the followers of Chaos (unless they were unaware of it but I doubt it). So that rules them out.

Collaboration with Eldar or any Xenos during the Great Crusade was forbidden. This makes it even more likely it is the Thousand Sons as they violated other Imperial edicts such as the prohibition of the usage, experimentation and study of Warp powers.




So, here's my theory based on all this circumstantial evidence...

1) The Thousand Sons were the marines working with the Eldar to secure the Necron during the Heresy. This never came to notice in the rest of the Imperium either because of the start of the Heresy, orbecause they kept it secret. This is why these "red marines" would leave their responsibilities to gurd one of the greatest threats in the universe....they were fighting the rest of the Imperium and were driven into the eye.

I agree with this. As stated above, the Thousand Sons violated other basic laws of the Imperium, hence collaboration with Xenos is possible. And the reason for leaving fits.



2) The Blood Ravens were founded before or during the Heresy by a Senior Librarian of the Thousand Sons. Whether he (Father Vidya) split from the Thousand Sons before over the ends and means in the pursuit of knowledge, or the split did not occur until the Heresy is unknown. It could be that they were a splinter known to be loyal by the powers that be and were allowed to found a new Chapter, or it could be that they had already separated themselves.

This would be difficult. Mars keeps records on Marine chapters and each Marine chapter has to supply regular geneseed to the Imperium for testing. It would arguably be easy to determine that the genestock submitted by the Blood Ravens is Thousand Sons.

Unless they have an alternative supply of geneseed which they use as phony tithes.

An alternative theory is that Ahriman manipulated creating the Blood Ravens after the heresy and that the Blood Ravens are either consciously or unwittingly are in effect working to further the Thousand Sons mysterious goals.



3) Father Vidya had many of the same studious, searching tendencies as his old Legion, but while the T Sons turned down the evil road in anger and to cure the Rubric, his searches of knowledge remained benign.

Of all the Chaos legions, the Thousand Sons motivations remain unclear. They only turned Chaos because Horus orchestrated the Space Wolves attack on them.

They seek knowledge but the reason why they seek knowledge is a mystery.

Personally, I don't like the idea of Chaos as evil. It's merely a different perspective (kinda like a Shinto saying an atheist is evil, or a Bangladeshi saying a Congolese is evil (picked the most inoffensive examples I could think of)).



4) He worked again with the Eldar to craft another powerful anti-Necron weapon, stored in the Blood Raven's battle barge and to lock the Necron in another place in the galaxy.

Dunno about this. Whatever the case the Blood Ravens would appear to have a weakness to Chaos - e.g. the 5th company which disappeared under dubious circumstances or the fall of the Librarian in Dawn Of War.


5) Although his passion for research and the rituals were maintained, Vidya's actual knowledge were gradually buried over time, but unlike all the other Chapters, their origins were deliberately obscured, for obvious reasons.

Sooo, what do you think?

Given the lack of knowledge regarding the chapter's history, this is possible.

odmiller
28-09-2006, 07:21
I'm pretty sure that Heresy era Word Bearers are black. Plus they embraced Chaos worship before the heresy and the Edlar would not work with the followers of Chaos (unless they were unaware of it but I doubt it). So that rules them out.

Collaboration with Eldar or any Xenos during the Great Crusade was forbidden. This makes it even more likely it is the Thousand Sons as they violated other Imperial edicts such as the prohibition of the usage, experimentation and study of Warp powers.





I agree with this. As stated above, the Thousand Sons violated other basic laws of the Imperium, hence collaboration with Xenos is possible. And the reason for leaving fits.




This would be difficult. Mars keeps records on Marine chapters and each Marine chapter has to supply regular geneseed to the Imperium for testing. It would arguably be easy to determine that the genestock submitted by the Blood Ravens is Thousand Sons.

Unless they have an alternative supply of geneseed which they use as phony tithes.

An alternative theory is that Ahriman manipulated creating the Blood Ravens after the heresy and that the Blood Ravens are either consciously or unwittingly are in effect working to further the Thousand Sons mysterious goals.




Of all the Chaos legions, the Thousand Sons motivations remain unclear. They only turned Chaos because Horus orchestrated the Space Wolves attack on them.

They seek knowledge but the reason why they seek knowledge is a mystery.

Personally, I don't like the idea of Chaos as evil. It's merely a different perspective (kinda like a Shinto saying an atheist is evil, or a Bangladeshi saying a Congolese is evil (picked the most inoffensive examples I could think of)).




Dunno about this. Whatever the case the Blood Ravens would appear to have a weakness to Chaos - e.g. the 5th company which disappeared under dubious circumstances or the fall of the Librarian in Dawn Of War.



Given the lack of knowledge regarding the chapter's history, this is possible.


On the subject of Geneseed, I guess it would have taken some collaboration initially in the high ranks of the Imperium, but the new novel also makes it clear that the Blood Ravens have very unusually high contacts in the Ordo Psychana and the Ministarium. Once the gene seed was initially set as Blood Raven seed (as opposed to Thousand Sons) it would presumably never be found out. Any samples would be check to make sure they are Blood Ravens, and that's it. Samples are not checked against all the traitor legions, there would be no need, just against the Chapter's own control.

From all the fluff, the ministirium itself seems to have no real grasp of how many Chapters are out there, and where they all come from. There is a lot of autonomy. As an example, it seems to be suggestedthat the Dark Angels themselves created the Angels of Vigillance shortly after the second founding, all on their own despite the wishes of the high lords.

In all the Chaos after the Heresy and the subsequent foundings, I could see a gene seed batch showing up labelled Blood Ravens, something about missing records or paperwork, and them getting added to the Imperial roles. Especially if their Founder is well connected and trusted by the right people. The rest is history.

SOTIRIOS
28-09-2006, 07:40
[QUOTE=cailus;973108]

Of all the Chaos legions, the Thousand Sons motivations remain unclear. They only turned Chaos because Horus orchestrated the Space Wolves attack on them.

QUOTE]

Sorry to disagree on that statement.Leman Russ was ordered by the Emperor to destroy the TS because with their warning destroyed his work to open the webway to humankind...That can be found in the HH art books. In the BL novels appears that Horus is only taking the chance and brings the TS to his side because of the sudden attack of the Space Wolves. Do not forget also that the forces of Space Wolves were supported by some of the Emperor's Bodyguards(Custodian Guard) and the Sisters of Silence...So the attack on Prospero was NOT orchestrated by Horus.It took place under direct command of the Emperor...

Wazzahamma
28-09-2006, 07:59
Well, the take in the Heresy novels is that the Emperor sent the SW, Sisters and Custodes only to forcibly escort Magnus back to Terra for questioning and reprimand. Horus intercepted Russ en route and convinced him that Magnus was a chaos loving, traitorous sorceror and that he was better off killing 'ol one eye than taking him alive.

Russ took the Warmaster's orders at face value and changed his mission statement from what the Emperor had commanded.

Nazguire
28-09-2006, 09:51
Well, the take in the Heresy novels is that the Emperor sent the SW, Sisters and Custodes only to forcibly escort Magnus back to Terra for questioning and reprimand. Horus intercepted Russ en route and convinced him that Magnus was a chaos loving, traitorous sorceror and that he was better off killing 'ol one eye than taking him alive.

Russ took the Warmaster's orders at face value and changed his mission statement from what the Emperor had commanded.

Either way, Magnus doesn't seem the type to allow someone he sees as a barbarian haul him halfway across the galaxy with an army at his back. And chances are Russ would have seen Magnus as a Chaos worshipper anyway and done the same thing anyway.

Prodigalson
28-09-2006, 13:45
Russ would have done what the Emperor told him to do. While it's common knowledge that Russ blew off anyone else, there is nothing in the background that would sudgest ath Russ would arbitrarily ignore the Emperor and Kill Magnus instead.

Also, If Russ had shown up and said, "Yo, the Emperor wants to see you." I think Magnus would have gone. After all, then he could have discussed what had happened to Horus together and perhaps not have happened.

The Thousand Sons went to chaos becuase of Horus. Their background is even more tragic now.

Wazzahamma
28-09-2006, 13:48
Well, that's conjecture. I'd say Russ' duty to the Emperor would outweigh his own selfish desires. Plus, I'm sure Magnus would welcome a confrontation with the Emperor over the superiority of his corcery. Then again, what I'm saying is also conjecture.

ryng_sting
28-09-2006, 15:54
The Blood Raven's IA article puts Vidya's rise to prominence during an attack against a major cultist uprising instigated and supproted by the Alpha Legion, far away in the Gothic sector. This didn't start happening in earnest until after the heresy after Alpharius was slain. Ergo, Vidya could not have been alive during or immediately after the heresy.

odmiller
28-09-2006, 16:34
The Blood Raven's IA article puts Vidya's rise to prominence during an attack against a major cultist uprising instigated and supproted by the Alpha Legion, far away in the Gothic sector. This didn't start happening in earnest until after the heresy after Alpharius was slain. Ergo, Vidya could not have been alive during or immediately after the heresy.

I didn't have that article handy. However, after reading the latest two novels, I would think that as GW continues to expand the fluff, things are slightly changing (as seems to happen quite a bit).

I got the distinct impression that Ahriman's knowledge of Vidya was as contempories, or close to it, and that Vidya was the founder of the Chapter , not mearly a Librarian that came along during their history. Anyone else read the books have their own take?

Kymar
28-09-2006, 16:44
- The Blood Ravens Father Librarian Vidya was known to Arhiman of the Thousand Sons
- Arhiman hints that the Blood Ravens Librarians' bear the same color as the T-Sons as more than a cooincidence, it's based on the Rubric of Arhiman
- Ahriman is intimately familiar with the details of the founding of the Blood Ravens, but doens't explain how


You forget that Arhiman is a seeker of forbidden knowledge and a great liar to boot. Just because he knows about it, doesn't mean that the Blood Raven'stold him about it / or that he was actually there.

odmiller
28-09-2006, 17:33
You forget that Arhiman is a seeker of forbidden knowledge and a great liar to boot. Just because he knows about it, doesn't mean that the Blood Raven'stold him about it / or that he was actually there.

Lol, no, I'm not forgetting. And it certainly doesn't mean anything in an of itself. However, GW is certainly piling up the circumstantial evidence to make us think they're linked.

Also, a very strange ending to the last book, one worthy of the Soul Drinker series, but as it doesn't really touch on this discussion, I won't go into details and potentially ruin the suprise for anyone.

heretics bane
28-09-2006, 17:42
the BR did have lots of libarians but even the standard marine is a psyker in one way or another,its in the gene seed and most people think that the BR are a loyalist splinter group of the tousand sons

Commander Ozae
28-09-2006, 19:18
Being psychic is not a part of the geneseed with the exception of the BA and their successors. The BR have a high percentage of psykers because they recruit from worlds where there are lots of people with the psyker genes. Therefore, the larger portion of people they bring into the chapter are psykers to begin with. Geneseed (like the TS) might enhance psychic talent but cannot create it out of nothing.

damz451
28-09-2006, 22:24
the thousand sons got lots of phykers because of the geneseed, the blood ravens librarians had latent phyker abilities before they even became space marines.

apart from that it could be possible that they are linked sumhow but the reasons behind their phycic powers are quite different.

Commander Ozae
29-09-2006, 01:20
No, the thousand sons did not get lots of psykers because of their geneseed. They recruited form a planet with an abundance of psykers. However, their geneseed probably did influence latent psykers to develop there powers even more but it is stated in IA that a large percentage of their marines were not psykers.

devolutionary
29-09-2006, 01:30
The more I learn about the Ravens, the more I think they're linked to the Blood Angels in some way. They have a stubborn, fanatical streak that goes beyodn your average marine. They have abnormal psychic talents (not withstanding recruitment, keep in mind the BAs have a massive psychic undercurrent to their background, and there is always Mephiston). They are awfully tragic, and the BAs are the Goth marines.

As a 1kSons fan I empathise with the desire to vindicate the geneseed of that legion, but quite frankly somebody would know that they were from the heretics, and they would be too big a threat to allow to live.

zendral
29-09-2006, 01:52
Don't forget that in the last dawn of war book, at the end, that one new guardsmen recruit showed signs of mutation. Remember that the geneseed of the sons was famous for that. Maybe the blood raven legion was created after some alteration to the geneseed, or perhaps some geneseed was founded from magnus that was not prone to mutation.....yet. And maybe it has started to come out again.

odmiller
29-09-2006, 16:55
The more I learn about the Ravens, the more I think they're linked to the Blood Angels in some way. They have a stubborn, fanatical streak that goes beyodn your average marine. They have abnormal psychic talents (not withstanding recruitment, keep in mind the BAs have a massive psychic undercurrent to their background, and there is always Mephiston). They are awfully tragic, and the BAs are the Goth marines.

As a 1kSons fan I empathise with the desire to vindicate the geneseed of that legion, but quite frankly somebody would know that they were from the heretics, and they would be too big a threat to allow to live.

Aside from the name's similarity, I don't see any possible way they're BA descendents.

There is nothing about them being more stubborn and fanatical than other marines. In fact the "trait" that is put forth over and over is their thirst for knowledge.

The Blood Ravens' psychic abundance seems to be completely different than the BA one. There is no hint of the psychic trauma associated with Sanguinius' heirs, just a huge number of Psychers.

As far as tragic marines go, I guess, but who's story is more tragic than the 1k Sons?

I'm not a fan of the 1k sons in any way, shape or form, and I don't care to vindicate their geneseed, but GW is making a big push to at least link the two chapters (1k sons and Blood Ravens). There has never been any GW effort to link them to the BA at all, again other than the name, so I don't get how there can be a BA successor theory.

odmiller
29-09-2006, 23:59
Thought a little more about this.

Ever since the first Index Astartes people have been guessing where the BR come from. From the beginning, the 1k Sons have been discounted because they're traitors. I get that, not supposed to occur.

But then over the course of two novels GW/BL add a huge weight of circumstantial evidence pointing towards the 1k Sons as an origin, and still the answer is "nah, they're traitors, never happen."

You certainly may be correct, but I've never heard anyone explain what else all the evidence points to. I'veheard "Red armor means Blood Angels, Psychic Powers means Grey Knights", but all these are incredibly tenuous, generic links. There are literally two books worth of hints pointing to the 1k Sons, never mind the generic ones (Thirst for Knowledge, Librarians, etc.) and this seems to be discarded because "it couldn't happen".

And hey, if the last Horus Heresy Art book is to be believed, the Grey Knights themselves seem to come from traitor Gene Seed, so.... why not?

The Hoff
30-09-2006, 11:50
There are some fairly crazy theories flying around here, so I thought somone needs to represent the 'fluff-nazi'/'Canon Lawyer'/Voice of reason camp by saying that Black Library novels are not to be considered canon.



But then over the course of two novels GW/BL add a huge weight of circumstantial evidence pointing towards the 1k Sons as an origin

What you mean to say is 'BL adding weight of evidence'(as opposed to GW/BL), the Black Library authors are notorious for their liberal and blase approach to GW canon. In my mind ,and I think others may agree with me here, Black Library writings carry about as much weight as fan-fiction when it comes to interprueting the background. In short, anything BL authors write is to be disregarded.

There is simply no way a loyalist chaper could be founded on Traitor geneseed. The origins of the Blood Ravens may be lost, yet the IA article suggests that the Chapter was part of the second founding, soon after the Heresy. This is a time when the survivors of Traitors legions were being ruthlessly hunted across the galaxy or driven back into the Eye of Terror.

Surely you guys cannot suggest that a company of Thousands Sons could front up to the avenging loyalists and say 'No no, we are not with them, we are still on your side guys...seriously'.
What happened to the TS was tragic and all, but they were still excommunicated, and the fledgling Imperium would have exterminated them as ruthlessly as they would any other Traitor Legion.

Hence, in my opinion there is no way that a Loyalist Chapeter could have been founded on the Thousands Sons geneseed.
Furthermore, despite the fact that such a founding is impossible, I would add that there is no way such a thing could go undiscovered for 10,000 years. And homouring this impossible notion even further, were such a Chapter to be discovered, the Grey Knights would be dispatched immediatly and in great wrath, and another name would be scratched from the list of Chapters (just like the poor old Relictors).




And hey, if the last Horus Heresy Art book is to be believed, the Grey Knights themselves seem to come from traitor Gene Seed, so.... why not?

The last Horus Heresy art book is not to be beleived. The Grey Knights do not come from Traitors geneseed...that is the most blasphemous thing I have heard all day:mad: .

Anyways...

Terminatorphoenix
30-09-2006, 12:05
It may be fluff heresy but it makes sense.If the grey knights wee founded from the gene seed of the loyalist members of the traitor legions it would be the ultimate two fingures to the chaos gods "You took half of our warriors but we're gona do one better,were gonna make super loyalists out of the loyalist ones".

Wazzahamma
30-09-2006, 12:16
And I'm the awful fascist who feels the need to point out the difference between official canon and fan preference. ;)

We're all entitled to believe the parts of fluff that we wish to...but if we to establish an "official canonical" approach, then we have to accept whatever GW publishes. Unfortunately, for those that don't like the fiction, Black Library is a section of BL Publishing, itself a division of Games Workshop. BL=GW. Sabertooth= GW. There is no real difference.

Inconsistencies in BL novels with GW fluff (IA articles, etc) are no more disreputable than inconsistencies between two pieces of "GW" published fluff (and yes, GW has contradicted itself over the years. Can we say that the GW writers who contradict other writers are not "real GW", simply based on preference?).

These "liberties" that BL writers are seen to take (and a few BL authors are in fact GW writers. A fact few seem to respect) can sometimes be written off as simple mistakes and a lack of thorough research on the author's part. But it's not entirely their fault- their editors and the IP management should be keeping a tighter rein on the author, as well as supplying all the relevant research in order to avoid these problems.

At other times, such as the revelation about the Grey Knights in the latest HH artbook- this is simply a case of new fluff superceding old. After all, the HH art books (and the Sabertooth fluff) are written by Alan Merret, the IP manager of Games Workshop. He is responsible for all the background fiction published by GW, BL or Sabertooth. The official nature of these writings is not debatable.

Now, whether or not he's doing a good job, however, is totally up for debate... ;)

Mechanicus
30-09-2006, 13:50
EDIT: Wazzahamma's post sums up what I was going to say. I should have read it before posting but, oh well... :)

But in essence, I agree that I personally don't believe that the Blood Ravens are from traitor geneseed, but only because they weren't from the 13th or 21st foundings, where such practices may have been plausible due to the nature of the founding's chapters and the records of these foundings (In the records case, practically non existant).

Wazzahamma
30-09-2006, 13:54
Well, that's the thing about all 40k fluff- novels, artbooks or magazines...it's all ambiguous enough that we can choose to believe whatever we want without arguing if it's "official" or not. Even the Grey Knight from traitor geneseed development is only hinted at in the 4th artbook, it's not explicitly stated.

Revlid
30-09-2006, 14:11
Besides that, why would the Blood Ravens have to be Thousand Sons who wandered up to the Inquisition and asked for a rename?
If I was a loyalist splinter of the Thousand Sons who'd been fighting Chaos somewhere, then after the heresy saw all these new chapters being made, I'd just change my symbol and heraldry and name, and send a tithe of Gene-seed to Mars with a note attatched to it saying "Blood Ravens". Le Voila, the loyalist Thousand Sons are now a completely legit new chapter. They were certainly smart and unconventional enough to do so.
Like others have said, all Traitor Gene-seed has been destroyed, so how would the Mechanicus compare it to the Thousand Sons?

heretics bane
30-09-2006, 16:59
but remeber the thousand sons where not oraginaly curropt until after the wolves destroyed them so any time before thatthey would have already have sent there gene seed to mars as russ was the only one who thought he knew they where traitor



P.S sorry for any spelling mistakes spell checks not working for me

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 18:50
but remeber the thousand sons where not oraginaly curropt until after the wolves destroyed them so any time before thatthey would have already have sent there gene seed to mars as russ was the only one who thought he knew they where traitor

Hm, a 'chronological' implication then, but following Russ' attack on the Thousand Sons, massive investigations must have been undertaken, wether it was about geneseed corruption, xenos-influence, provocation, doctrinal differences, prejudice, arrogance... The list goes on, but agree it must have been done.

odmiller
30-09-2006, 22:12
And I'm the awful fascist who feels the need to point out the difference between official canon and fan preference. ;)

We're all entitled to believe the parts of fluff that we wish to...but if we to establish an "official canonical" approach, then we have to accept whatever GW publishes. Unfortunately, for those that don't like the fiction, Black Library is a section of BL Publishing, itself a division of Games Workshop. BL=GW. Sabertooth= GW. There is no real difference.

Inconsistencies in BL novels with GW fluff (IA articles, etc) is no more disreputable than inconsistencies between two pieces of "GW" published fluff (and yes, GW has contradicted itself over the years. Can we say that the GW writers who contradict other writers are not "real GW", simply based on preference?).

These "liberties" that BL writers are seen to take (and a few BL authors are in fact GW writers. A fact few seem to respect) can sometimes be written off as simple mistakes and a lack of thorough research on the author's part. But it's not entirely their fault- their editors and the IP management should be keeping a tighter rein on the author, as well as supplying all the relevant research in order to avoid these problems.

At other times, such as the revelation about the Grey Knights in the latest HH artbook- this is simply a case of new fluff superceding old. After all, the HH art books (and the Sabertooth fluff) are written by Alan Merret, the IP manager of Games Workshop. He is responsible for all the background fiction published by GW, BL or Sabertooth. The official nature of these writings is not debatable.

Now, whether or not he's doing a good job, however, is totally up for debate... ;)


Stated perfectly.

I tend to think the decades (centuries) after the Heresy were incredibly chaotic, brutal, and disorganized as the Imperium was trying to sort itself out, chase down the traitors and rebuild. All the beaurocratic organizations we know and love, the Inquisition especially, were in their infancy at that time, and the entire infrastructure of Mars and Terra was in ruins. I think the trusted marines without taint could have been allowed to live and serve, although reflagged as a new organization(again - see the Grey Knight teaser in the HH Art book). After all, the Imperium knew marines from the traitor chapters fought and died for the Emperor on Istvaan 3, knew of the Einstein, etc. The automatic and unthinking reactions of the Imperium of 40k were not the same ones in 30k, if I read the new Horus Books correctly. Anyway, I think it could have happened in that Era, not the present one.

Maybe not.

But I think that's where GW is hinting.

Wazzahamma
01-10-2006, 01:33
Well, who else would you trust more to fight chaos than marines who renounced both their legion and primarch to remain loyal to the Emperor? I agree that in the centuries that followed, the more unforgiving attitudes of the new Imperium probably coloured the story so that the Eisenstein loyalists were rumoured to have been incarcerated till death or even executed. We shouldn't forget that equally valid rumours were that they were allowed to fight their traitorous brethren at the siege of Terra and that Garro became an apothecary post-heresy.

Also, I thought I read somewhere in old GW fluff that the geneseed of the traitor legions of the first founding was still kept somewhere on Mars, but under the highest level of protection and secrecy...

Velict
01-10-2006, 02:35
Also, I thought I read somewhere in old GW fluff that the geneseed of the traitor legions of the first founding was still kept somewhere on Mars, but under the highest level of protection and secrecy...

I seem to remember that as well.

1k Sons can definitely not be ruled out.

damz451
01-10-2006, 02:49
i think it was an evil plan by the deceiver lol, Tbh they could be part of any legion (traitor or loyal) for instance they could be a dark angel succesor which would explain why they dont know their past.

Revlid
01-10-2006, 10:57
Yes, but apart from not knowing their founding Legion they have no real connection to the Dark Angels, and loads to the Thousand Sons.

cailus
01-10-2006, 22:14
I think it is very possible that the Blood Ravens are from traitor geneseed if Ahriman of the Thousand Sons was involved. This guy is a master manipulator and has knowledge that would surpass that of many other researchers of arcane lore.

Commander Ozae
01-10-2006, 23:24
Let's face it, all the fluff we have right now points that the Blood Ravens were created using the Thousand Sons geneseed. But no one knows when this happened. It could have been they were a loyal element from the Heresy or it could have been that hte High Lords used their geneseed for some unknowable reason. Is it possible, just speculating, that their geneseed came from the Cursed Founding?

Talos402000
02-10-2006, 05:06
There was a rumour going around about Project Augustus, an attempt to use traitor geneseed in creating new loyalist chapters. Supposedly the Night Lords were used for the Marines Malevolent, the World Eaters for the Minotaurs, the Death Guard for the Sons of Antaeus, and the Thousand Sons for the Blood Ravens, and who knows how many others.

To clarify something else, the only place in the Imperium one would have a chance of finding traitor geneseed is the Inner Sanctum of the Emperor's Palace, the place where the Primarchs and first marines were created, and its been closed since the Siege of Terra (although no one seems to want to talk about why it's closed) and guarded by Custodes.

Also, a new Blood Ravens novel is coming out this month and supposedly Brother-Librarian Rammah encounters a familiar band of Marines in it... in an Eldar Library world. I think we will find a few new clues in this book.

zendral
02-10-2006, 05:31
Also, a new Blood Ravens novel is coming out this month and supposedly Brother-Librarian Rammah encounters a familiar band of Marines in it... in an Eldar Library world. I think we will find a few new clues in this book.


Isn't that whats already out? Tempest?

odmiller
02-10-2006, 05:51
Isn't that whats already out? Tempest?

Yes, that's the book I described at length in the first post. That's the book theat triggered this whole discussion again.

Wazzahamma
02-10-2006, 07:38
There was a rumour going around about Project Augustus, an attempt to use traitor geneseed in creating new loyalist chapters. Supposedly the Night Lords were used for the Marines Malevolent, the World Eaters for the Minotaurs, the Death Guard for the Sons of Antaeus, and the Thousand Sons for the Blood Ravens, and who knows how many others.

Now that's very interesting- was that rumour "official" fluff or one that began and circulated amongst fandom? In other words- where can I read more about it?

Jellicoe
02-10-2006, 12:58
So if what you are saying is correct and the cursed founding was done on the use of 'purified' traitor geneseed does that account for all the chapters of that founding or just some? IIRC the lamenters who were of the same founding were purified Blood angel geneseed. No blood curse but dead unlucky. Perhaps a more systematic process to refine the geneseed of all the original legions or least those of the more unsteady ones?

Slazton
02-10-2006, 13:57
Blood Ravens' geneseed could have come from the Thousand Sons, as why in the sacred Emperor would they corss check the geneseed with another Chapter?

See the logical way of thinking is that the AdMech is looking for mutation and other deviants from the geneseed they prior have so why would they go through the ffort of referencing it with other Geneseed?

Its not even logical as all geneseed comes from an original stock.

Personally I like the idea and hope it is expanded upon.

How old is this guardsmen? Are you sure that he is mutated in some way? Alright this is what spoiler tags are people...

[ spoiler] [/spoiler] obvioulsy no space between [ and spoiler so tell me.....

CoG-Aragorn
02-10-2006, 19:03
Why's Voronwe's theory removed? I kinda liked it.

odmiller
02-10-2006, 21:45
Blood Ravens' geneseed could have come from the Thousand Sons, as why in the sacred Emperor would they corss check the geneseed with another Chapter?

See the logical way of thinking is that the AdMech is looking for mutation and other deviants from the geneseed they prior have so why would they go through the ffort of referencing it with other Geneseed?

Its not even logical as all geneseed comes from an original stock.

Personally I like the idea and hope it is expanded upon.

How old is this guardsmen? Are you sure that he is mutated in some way? Alright this is what spoiler tags are people...

[ spoiler] [/spoiler] obvioulsy no space between [ and spoiler so tell me.....

Read on below...

Yes. He was old, 17 or 18, and the process was hurried. Apparently the Blood Ravens have a lot of trouble getting recruits so they are undergoing ever more dangerous processes. However, the Captian tells him to hide his mutation and get on with it, they won't let a little thing like tentacle fingers cost them a good marine! Heretics!

Fulgrim's Gimp
02-10-2006, 22:00
All 1st founding legions including the traitors have samples kept by the admech,this comes from 2nd ed Ultramarines codex. As for project Augustus , though I don't remember the name as Augustus the cursed founding army list mentioned that the chapters bore strong resemblance to the traitors. Also Fabius Bile was involved in the Incunabla incident in one of the IA volumes where the cursed founding were made , so there may be a precedent for mucking about with Traitor geneseed.

cailus
02-10-2006, 23:38
Read on below...

Yes. He was old, 17 or 18, and the process was hurried. Apparently the Blood Ravens have a lot of trouble getting recruits so they are undergoing ever more dangerous processes. However, the Captian tells him to hide his mutation and get on with it, they won't let a little thing like tentacle fingers cost them a good marine! Heretics!

Quite clearly my Impaler Chapter are the only pure chapter out there. All the others are heretics and traitors who need to be purged!

Slazton
03-10-2006, 00:16
I think that must be a flaw. The Blood Ravens can't be that desperate. Something tells me they are being set up for another Soul Drinker style issue...maybe even the flagship army for renegade Space Marines?

Gen.Steiner
03-10-2006, 00:25
Tentacled fingers!? Heresy and treason!

I shall mobilise the Righteous Fists to unite with the Impalers to bring the Emperor's Justice to these vile heretics - we must crush their evil before they split the Imperium asunder once more!

That aside, I think it's very interesting indeed. I'd like to hear more about Project Augustus as well...

Wazzahamma
03-10-2006, 01:49
Agreed on hearing more about Augustus...any help?

Talos402000
03-10-2006, 03:46
Here is the opening to the whole article, which was posted on Relic forums sometime back (do a search). It talks about how the entire Cursed Founding was orchestrated by rogue Inquisitors who tried to use Chaos to fight Chaos and sabotaged the Founding by substituting Traitor geneseed (taken from loyal marines who died during the Great Crusade) taken from the Inner Sanctum.


Doors, ornate and golden, and as ancient as the Imperium itself, yielded to the Inquisitor as he descended deeper into the clandestine realm of the Adeptus Custodes. The secretive caretakers of the Emperor had gone to great lengths to hide the Master of Mankind in a myriad of hallways, chambers, and dust. His only sense of direction was the humming of the great machine that kept the Emperor's soul anchored to this world at the cost of so many others. Were it not for the guiding voice of his Masters, the Inquisitor surely would have been discovered and terminated.

Eventually he came to the great door the voices spoke of. Standing higher than his own impressive height, he was forced to crane his head upwards to look at the face of a man in armour imprinted upon the door's golden surface. In the figure's right hand was a book with the Imperial Eagle upon it's face, and from his left hung a map of the entire known universe. Below the man stood hundreds of others, some noticeably larger and bearing symbols of the Adeptus Astartes First Founding legions; all looking up towards to the inspiring figure. To the right of the door a dust-choked lever was found within what was once a well-defended guard post. The Inquisitor, without a trace of hesitation, set in motion the process that would open one of mankind's greatest secrets to the prying eyes of the universe once again.
The entire chamber rumbled as ancient machinery turned on decaying gears hidden deep within the golden walls and parted the doors to an ichor of blackness that reached beyond the sight of man and cast a shadow upon one's very own soul. Seeing the carving of the beloved Emperor give way to unholy blackness presented a grotesque irony that the Inquisitor took as a dire warning. Rivulets of dust fell from the spaces between the great ceiling plates as a gust of foul air blew forth from the now open wound that is the Inner Sanctum. The Inquisitor knew that from this point on his intrusion could no longer go unnoticed by those who guarded this place, and those who also sought entrance.

Wazzahamma
03-10-2006, 13:21
Talos402000, at the risk of revealing my poor search skills, can you point me to what search words you used to find it on Relic? I've typed "cursed founding" and "minotaurs" and gotten a whole bunch of threads, but none of them seem to contain the article you quote...I know...I suck...

Talos402000
03-10-2006, 19:40
Don't feel too bad. I can't find the ******** thing anymore either. I think they deleted the thread.

Wazzahamma
04-10-2006, 03:17
I've done a few net searches for it as well, and every link to the article has been deleted. ARRRGH

jonson the lion
16-02-2009, 17:29
If you have read the book Battle for the abyss you'll see that on page 368 at the bottom Mhotep a thousand sons sergeant says Knowledge is power which
is part of the blood ravens warcry the whole thing is knowledge is power ,guard it well. So with that and other replies on this site lead me to believe that the Blood ravens might come from the thousand sons legion.

jonson the lion
16-02-2009, 17:46
also in the new book coming out in august called prospero burns there could be more info on the thousand sons and posible some on the blood ravens

chivalrous
16-02-2009, 18:21
There was a rumour going around about Project Augustus, an attempt to use traitor geneseed in creating new loyalist chapters. Supposedly the Night Lords were used for the Marines Malevolent, the World Eaters for the Minotaurs, the Death Guard for the Sons of Antaeus, and the Thousand Sons for the Blood Ravens, and who knows how many others.


So if what you are saying is correct and the cursed founding was done on the use of 'purified' traitor geneseed does that account for all the chapters of that founding or just some?

This is just speculation on my part and not corroborated on anything in the background, Black Library or otherwise, however I seem to remember that a number of later chapters were founded with a geneseed spliced from two chapters rather than one.

I wonder if the founding of the Blood Ravens occurred after Mephiston recovered from the Red Thirst?

I suggest that maybe the Blood Ravens are an attempt by the Blood Angels to find a cure for the Red Thirst by introducing a strain of geneseed with a strong psychic characteristic, knowing that it was Mephistons psychic powers that ultimately allowed him to recover.
What better geneseed to use than one that is already known to tend towards psychic ability.
It is heretical but the arguement for it, is that at some point all of the Blood Angels will degenerate into frothing space vampires and the Imperium really doesn't want that to happen in a first founding chapter. While the Thousand Sons' geneseed is succeotible to corruption through the temptation of psychic powers, those powers will be distracted on a genetic level to keeping the Red Thirst at bay, much like Cable's (X-force, X-Men etc.) psychic powers operate at a much lower power level than X-Man or Stryfe's powers because he has to devote a lot of his power into keeping the techno Organic virus at bay. The Thousand Son's geneseed could be likened to a cowpox innoculation against the smallpox. A small amount will give you a minor ailment (psychic powers) but ultimately prevent a dangerous, crippling and occasionaly fatal disease (frothing space vampirism!)
Meanwhile, the Imperial powers that be are keeping an eye on the chapter to see just how effective the solution is and whether it can be used down the line on the Blood Angel's chapter.

Col. Tartleton
16-02-2009, 19:36
This is just speculation on my part and not corroborated on anything in the background, Black Library or otherwise, however I seem to remember that a number of later chapters were founded with a geneseed spliced from two chapters rather than one.

I wonder if the founding of the Blood Ravens occurred after Mephiston recovered from the Red Thirst?

I suggest that maybe the Blood Ravens are an attempt by the Blood Angels to find a cure for the Red Thirst by introducing a strain of geneseed with a strong psychic characteristic, knowing that it was Mephistons psychic powers that ultimately allowed him to recover.
What better geneseed to use than one that is already known to tend towards psychic ability.
It is heretical but the arguement for it, is that at some point all of the Blood Angels will degenerate into frothing space vampires and the Imperium really doesn't want that to happen in a first founding chapter. While the Thousand Sons' geneseed is succeotible to corruption through the temptation of psychic powers, those powers will be distracted on a genetic level to keeping the Red Thirst at bay, much like Cable's (X-force, X-Men etc.) psychic powers operate at a much lower power level than X-Man or Stryfe's powers because he has to devote a lot of his power into keeping the techno Organic virus at bay. The Thousand Son's geneseed could be likened to a cowpox innoculation against the smallpox. A small amount will give you a minor ailment (psychic powers) but ultimately prevent a dangerous, crippling and occasionaly fatal disease (frothing space vampirism!)
Meanwhile, the Imperial powers that be are keeping an eye on the chapter to see just how effective the solution is and whether it can be used down the line on the Blood Angel's chapter.

You can't be further from the truth...

The Blood Ravens date to at least the earlier foundings I believe, Mephiston being at oldest born in the second half of the M41.

@Jonson the Lion: I question the need for a solid two plus year necromancy over such clutching at straws (no offense.)

The Blood Ravens recruit from psychically latent worlds, and their geneseed (if doing anything at all) simply aids this. The Thousand Son Gene-seed theoretically aided in attuning to the warp. Clearly it doesn't cause psychic powers, as the Rubric destroyed most of the legion (being non psykers.) The gene-seed did not cause the mutations, as these were an after affect to Magnus' eventually submitting to Tzeentch as being the cause of his problems.

Primary Example: Gabriel Angelos- Latent Psyker of low power, although he is apparently able to hear the astronomican's choir. I'm curious if this is not dissimilar to the abilities of the Navigators, or secondly if its more in line with the visions of the Black Templars' Emperor's Champions, or perhaps as a tertiary thought, is it the voice of Tzeentch or Magnus...

Regardless, the fact that the Blood Raven's are in possession of a secondary psychic beacon nigh alike the Astronomicon is bizzarre and as of yet unexplained. I am currently of the belief that the Blood Ravens were a force of infiltrating Thousand Son's (loyalist mind you) who at some point suffered a major destruction of Records, either by upper echelon members of the Chapter, the Inquisition, or some other power. At this point they lost contact with their past, and opted to leave it in the past and move forward giving thanks that their secret was no longer haunting them.

However Azariah Vidyah, a curious ranking librarian began delving into the matter. He was unable to find out precisely where they came from, but he managed to reveal the fact that their past had been deliberately destroyed. Later when the Chapter suffered heavy losses and he was elevated to the duel title of Chapter Master and Chief librarian - Great Father, he put them on their current path.

Then in M38 (I theorize) Ahriman the Sorceror made contact with a Librarian of the Fifth Company. He revealed the unknown side of their past, though leaving much to be desired and lacking proof, the inquisitive Librarian asked for real evidence, as he did not fully trust Ahriman, though he felt it may be the terrifying truth. Ahriman said he would show them the way to the Planet of Sorceror's to speak with Magnus himself. Ahriman explained that he had been exiled by Magnus for his failed attempt to save the legion's honor. The librarian took Ahriman's word, and set off into the Eye of Terror, his drive for the truth more important to him then his own life or that of his company. He decided that even if the story were not true it would be a great end to die in pursuit of knowledge.

Its now the 41st Millennium, and Ahriman now in search of the Black Library encounters another Blood Raven Librarian. He sees the possibility to reunite the entire chapter with his own Prodigal Sons (dare i say chapter) in order to help him find the Library. He fails doubly in this matter thanks to the skeins of fate and thats about the status of events in that theater.

Amornar
16-02-2009, 22:43
I agree with the 1k sones theory. If the Grey Knights- the holiest of the holy space marines can be allowed to exist being made from what is probably loyalist traitor legion gene seed then the blood ravens can exist from 1k son geneseed. GW is all about making the 40k universe dark and full of connections and plot twists. What is more interesting from a writer and developer's point of view? Just another loyalist chapter successor or a chapter founded in secret from loyalist traitor legion gene seed that may or may not be tainted after all? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Iron-Man
17-02-2009, 08:33
Is there anyone else on here who believes that the Blood Ravens are from the Imperial Fists? They have one of Dorns weapons. that has to count for something right? and why do they secretly resent the Imperial fists? All this talk about them having connections with 1k sons just because they have psychic talents is a little misleading IMHO. The BR openly look for latent psykers when they are recruiting on planets. in the second DoW book it talks about Gabriel and his command staff watching the combatents fight and them looking for psykers in the group. Librarians are charged with upholding the history of the chapter and not just being psychic guys. Maybe the BR think that more librarians=better chance to discover the truth with their past. the fact that they have many librarians has nothing to do with their geneseed as they intentionally search for psykers and planets with high psychic population. thats my two cents on this.

kamedake88
17-02-2009, 12:48
I'm pretty sure that Heresy era Word Bearers are black. Plus they embraced Chaos worship before the heresy and the Edlar would not work with the followers of Chaos (unless they were unaware of it but I doubt it). So that rules them out.

Collaboration with Eldar or any Xenos during the Great Crusade was forbidden. This makes it even more likely it is the Thousand Sons as they violated other Imperial edicts such as the prohibition of the usage, experimentation and study of Warp powers.





I agree with this. As stated above, the Thousand Sons violated other basic laws of the Imperium, hence collaboration with Xenos is possible. And the reason for leaving fits.




This would be difficult. Mars keeps records on Marine chapters and each Marine chapter has to supply regular geneseed to the Imperium for testing. It would arguably be easy to determine that the genestock submitted by the Blood Ravens is Thousand Sons.

Unless they have an alternative supply of geneseed which they use as phony tithes.

An alternative theory is that Ahriman manipulated creating the Blood Ravens after the heresy and that the Blood Ravens are either consciously or unwittingly are in effect working to further the Thousand Sons mysterious goals.




Of all the Chaos legions, the Thousand Sons motivations remain unclear. They only turned Chaos because Horus orchestrated the Space Wolves attack on them.

They seek knowledge but the reason why they seek knowledge is a mystery.

Personally, I don't like the idea of Chaos as evil. It's merely a different perspective (kinda like a Shinto saying an atheist is evil, or a Bangladeshi saying a Congolese is evil (picked the most inoffensive examples I could think of)).




Dunno about this. Whatever the case the Blood Ravens would appear to have a weakness to Chaos - e.g. the 5th company which disappeared under dubious circumstances or the fall of the Librarian in Dawn Of War.



Given the lack of knowledge regarding the chapter's history, this is possible.

Long quote for something so short but Heresy era Thousand Sons wore red armor and gold trimmings. source; all the Horus Heresy art books have thousand sons in red armor. Now on the other hand word bearers wore black armor during the heresy.
I agree with the OP. I've always thought that Cassern's war-fu was weak but even these rudimentary literary tricks to hide an implied fact are just that, rudimentary. looking at above posts and posts on similar threads tells me that people have not read these novels but still like to discuss them. Fair enough, I do the some thing sometimes but when someone brings obvious evidence to the table don't brush it off. The most used argument against the whole we're not secretly chaos marines (alpha Legion) in good marine armor is that the only link to Loyal Chaos Marines is physic talent of the chapter and thats it. But as the OP suggests... well clearly spells out goes much deeper.

Its called reading between the lines, I mean what does Ahriman need to do explicitly say 'yea, the whole lot of you was created after angry throw out sex between me and a... well that thing in the corner, (Keeper of secrets leers out of corner), after daddy Magnus banished me'. What CS goto tries to do is use the lamest trick in the book and he does it badly (not to totally trash the guys hard work, I actually like some of his books). All it is, is vailed mystery and intrigue.

Poseidal
17-02-2009, 14:29
Can someone tell me more about the Grey Knights founding? What traitor legion were the progenitors in this big reveal?

Because if they are allowed, then Blood Ravens being loyalist Thousand Sons suddenly becomes a lot less unlikely.

Though I have to say, I initially thought they were a Blood Angels successor chapter with a name and logo like that.

chivalrous
17-02-2009, 16:47
You can't be further from the truth...
ohh a challenge:evilgrin:

Umm, The Blood Ravens geneseed was actually developed from the adrenal glands of rabid hamsters and the venom from radioactively charged spiders. :p


The Blood Ravens date to at least the earlier foundings I believe, Mephiston being at oldest born in the second half of the M41.

Understood, cheers!

But I do wonder if there is any possibility of addressing how different mixes of geneseed might work out.

Word Bearers mixed with Black Templars (Imperial Fists) to create an incredibly zealous crowd of religious nutters for instance.
Space Wolves mixed with Dark Angels. something comletely self loathing... space Lemmings perhaps.

Obake123
17-02-2009, 18:56
Good chain of evidence their. I rather like the idea of the Blood Ravens being a Thousand Sons successor chapter.

Don't understand some of the hate thrown at the idea of Loyalist Chapters being founded on Traitor Geneseed. All of the available info in the HH books seems to show that the Primarches went bad and dragged their men down with them. Nothing wrong with the seed, just the leadership.

Besides, the occasional squad from every chapter (save the Grey knights) goes over to Chaos. Yet those chapters are still around. The whole don't get blamed for the weakness of a few.

Question - Magnus of the Thousand Sons went to great trouble to try and warn the Emperor about Horus. Why didn't he listen????

Might have saved a little trouble....

Colin

Col. Tartleton
17-02-2009, 20:31
Well the only stated mix breed chapter afaik are the Relictors, who seem to be Ultramarines and Dark Angels to my recollection.

As you can see, their traitor halves (DA) inspired them to embrace the use of Chaos as a weapon, their Ultramarine half told them it was ok cause "we da best."

Thus those two aren't going to be mixed again...

My alternate theory that isn't totally backed up in the fluff (as there aren't enough dates so I didn't mention it) is that the Blood Ravens backed Van Dire, they came to arms with the IF then repented when they saw the truth. They deleted their past DA style as to put it all behind them. They also decided to train as many librarians as possible in hopes that they would never be duped like that again.

However this leaves out a lot of other stuff and has no real evidence...

Industrial Propaganda
18-02-2009, 09:58
The last Horus Heresy art book is not to be beleived.

Alan Merret wrote the Horus Heresy art & background book.
He is the living incarnation of WH40K's Fluff. So I can believe it.

Imo, I'm a so called fluff nazi and take BL stuff as canon.
BUT of course there are evolution and contradiction in the fluff.
I have always let the new overwrite the old. End of line.

Poseidal
18-02-2009, 10:02
Can someone tell me more about the Grey Knights founding? What traitor legion were the progenitors in this big reveal?

Because if they are allowed, then Blood Ravens being loyalist Thousand Sons suddenly becomes a lot less unlikely.

Though I have to say, I initially thought they were a Blood Angels successor chapter with a name and logo like that.

Can anyone tell me the above? (it got stuck on the end of the page, so I think people probably missed it).

Also, who provides the Geneseed for new chapters? could the people who store them actually play around with them first, so in theory some successor chapters aren't 'true' successors but a mix?

jonson the lion
04-03-2009, 21:58
Does anyone know why the space wolves attack and sack the the capital city of prospero and declared exterminatus by the inquisition

Hellebore
05-03-2009, 02:02
Can anyone tell me the above? (it got stuck on the end of the page, so I think people probably missed it).

Also, who provides the Geneseed for new chapters? could the people who store them actually play around with them first, so in theory some successor chapters aren't 'true' successors but a mix?

SPOILERS


It was heavily infered in flight of the Eisenstein that Garro and a few others became the primogenitors of the grey knights. This included that Luna Wolf the Half Heard iirc. They were mostly Death Guard.

The other theory is that they became the origin for the Inqusition. Either way, the book says that they were requisitioned for a secret new purpose.


Personally I've always preferred the notion that they GKs are a successor chapter to the Custodes. It makes a lot of sense.


I don't see the 'traitor geneseed makes it impossible' argument as concrete. For a start, all traitor geneseed was locked up under stasis ward. They don't access it. They certainly won't compare it to the loyalist geneseeds.

Secondly, loyalists from traitor legions existed and were accepted by the Imperium, cf Garro et al. Thus, there is precedent for loyalist TSs to be taken back into the fold.

From what I remember of the TS IA article, it WAS Magnus' geneseed that increased the psychic prevalence of his marines. If he is psychic, and the genes for that are in his geneseed, then it means it could bestow or augment psychic power in those that received the seed.


So, the Blood Ravens being TS successors is not entirely unrealistic.

Hellebore

thearchiver
05-03-2009, 03:10
On the subject on canon or not, arnt the DoW books all flagged as 40,000DoW?

Which would to me atleast mean that they are in there own subset universe and so would not be canon in the general 40k universe.

murrytheskull
05-03-2009, 03:40
When playing through the Dawn of War 2 Campaign you get titbits of Blood Ravens history through the conversations of the squad sergeants as well as on the loading screens.

They don't give away anything earth shattering and I don't think I'm spoiling anything by recounting the following (Keep in mind I played it through a few weeks ago and I don’t remember it perfectly)

- There are rumoured to be 4 founding heroes of the Blood Ravens. Though this is only half remembered legendary tales. You get a little blurb about two of them. I think their names all started with A. Sorry I can’t remember more...they may not have told you much more :(

- Davian Thule the commander on Kronus (during the third game expansion Dark Crusade) should have been elevated into the highest ranks of the Chapter considering his victory there. However, he withdrew from the politics of the blood ravens and his standing has suffered. It is said that he discovered terrible secrets about the chapter's past and this is the reason for his withdrawal.

- The Blood Ravens companies sent to Kurava (in the fourth Soulstorm game expansion) were lost. This entire campaign was seen as a mistake. (Many gamers saw this expansion as a mistake...I wonder if relic was laughing at itself here)

- There are lots of relics from different chapters that you get as war gear related to other chapters. Each piece of special war gear comes with a little blurb. One of the blood angels related artefacts suggests that the blood angels deliberately obscure their history by linking themselves to other chapters. The similarities with Blood angels in name and colour are clever misdirection to keep attention away from their true past.


There are probably alot more in the game but these are the few i remember off the top of my head. I'm sure someone else can give a more detailed account.

Murrytheskull

Gu Long: Ancient Dragon
05-03-2009, 07:40
Must add, there have been examples of Chapters being set up with mixed geneseed, including traitor geneseed (Revilers, if i remember correctly have 3 one of which is Death Guard (from IA) cant quote as im in China and my IA's are in Scotland :P) Is it possible that the Blood Ravens are from mixed geneseed one of which was the Thousand Sons?

grissom2006
05-03-2009, 12:19
just a thought but maybe the blood ravens are in actual fact one of the missing legions without even knowing it

pookie
05-03-2009, 16:16
I don't see the 'traitor geneseed makes it impossible' argument as concrete. For a start, all traitor geneseed was locked up under stasis ward. They don't access it. They certainly won't compare it to the loyalist geneseeds.



but how can they have it?

wasnt it only after the HH were SM Chapters made to submit there Gene Seed for testing, not Prior to the HH, unless the Emp had a store of them?

Which is unlikly when you consider that the EC were the smallest legion untill reuinted with Fulgrim.... ( iirc 300 strong ).

Pitalla Crimson
09-03-2009, 04:41
well for starters its Goto, and I think that he's stuff is not canon anymore.
Or at least how he described the events of the books tough.

In holy terra they have a sample of all the primarchs geneseed and that include's the one of the renegade ones wich are locked down in vaults.

My theory are the follownigs:

1.Either the inquisition or the imperium decided to start a new chaper with the geneseed of Magnus the red but from scratch so the chapter had no idea where they camefrom.

2.Perhaps the most popular is that they are a loyalist splinter of the thousand sons that where on a crusade and when they returned the civil war was already over, so they where offered death or a fresh start. And since the Alpha Legion took care of most of the chapter, including the veterans and all that then there are barely some that remember.

For further info check out dawn of war 2 book, the 1st Blood Ravens book that is good.

NOTE: I find very funny how GOTO has gained a very large haters cult over the internet :p

pookie
09-03-2009, 12:15
well for starters its Goto, and I think that he's stuff is not canon anymore.
Or at least how he described the events of the books tough.

In holy terra they have a sample of all the primarchs geneseed and that include's the one of the renegade ones wich are locked down in vaults.

My theory are the follownigs:

1.Either the inquisition or the imperium decided to start a new chaper with the geneseed of Magnus the red but from scratch so the chapter had no idea where they camefrom.

2.Perhaps the most popular is that they are a loyalist splinter of the thousand sons that where on a crusade and when they returned the civil war was already over, so they where offered death or a fresh start. And since the Alpha Legion took care of most of the chapter, including the veterans and all that then there are barely some that remember.

For further info check out dawn of war 2 book, the 1st Blood Ravens book that is good.

NOTE: I find very funny how GOTO has gained a very large haters cult over the internet :p

My point was that teh 'Fluff' published contradicts its self thats all.

chivalrous
21-04-2009, 10:45
but how can they have it?

wasnt it only after the HH were SM Chapters made to submit there Gene Seed for testing, not Prior to the HH, unless the Emp had a store of them?

Which is unlikly when you consider that the EC were the smallest legion untill reuinted with Fulgrim.... ( iirc 300 strong ).

All the legions were created on Terra before the Primarchs were recovered so it may be that samples remained and didn't need to be submitted. Of course they'd be pure and untainted at that point.

I'm trying to remember if the Emperor's Children made it to Terra.
There would be enough dead bodies to harvest a sample of the Geneseed from.
Or maybe later skirmishes with the Emperors children. chaplains may have been under instruction to recover traitor specimens for whichever Ordo' is in charge of that sort of thing.
Even if they wouldn't use it to create more Space Marines, it would be useful to have to identify possible corruptions in later submitted loyalist geneseeds.

pookie
21-04-2009, 11:34
All the legions were created on Terra before the Primarchs were recovered so it may be that samples remained and didn't need to be submitted. Of course they'd be pure and untainted at that point.

I'm trying to remember if the Emperor's Children made it to Terra.
There would be enough dead bodies to harvest a sample of the Geneseed from.
Or maybe later skirmishes with the Emperors children. chaplains may have been under instruction to recover traitor specimens for whichever Ordo' is in charge of that sort of thing.
Even if they wouldn't use it to create more Space Marines, it would be useful to have to identify possible corruptions in later submitted loyalist geneseeds.

the Ec did in deed make it to terra during the HH, they spend the majority of there time slaughtering there way through the civilian population.

LexxBomb
21-04-2009, 15:42
Aside from the name's similarity, I don't see any possible way they're BA descendents.
.

they have furioso dreadnaughts... something that ONLY Blood Angels and their successors have them... that is what sparked the thougths that maybe the BA were the parent legion (without the blood drinking - which is how the curse is passed on)

Lord Damocles
21-04-2009, 19:15
Then again there's a picture of a Furioso pattern Dreadnought in the Black Templars codex as well...

The 'Index Astartes: Blood Ravens' specifically stated that the link with the Blood Angels (much like the link with the Raven Guard) was likely based on noting but the similar names.

Enkidu
21-04-2009, 21:42
Warning, this will be long;

I don't believe that Geneseed have anything to do with being traitor or not, atleast not directly.

We know Geneseed can influence alot of things, influence Psychic abilities, create strange behaviour patterns; influence body shape, size and growth.
A good example is sharp, boney, swordlike growths: I forget which chapter off the top of my head, but they too are said to always turn in 100% pure geneseed; from which we can infer; all that the geneseed is used for is purity testing, not comparison to every other Chapter/Legion, and also tells us that, if lacking tell-tale impurities, you can't tell which Chapter X Geneseed belongs to. And obviously kept as a stash incase they want to make more Astartes. Keep in mind, keeping a small stock of geneseed prob isn't enough to create a whole chapter at the drop of a hat. Seeing as every piece = 1 Astartes, I doubt the tithe or stash is very large. I would assume that foundings are planned pretty far in advance.

As for the whole Chaos theory: As Obake123 said above, the problem was the leadership.
The rank and file troopers didn't just up and decide to turn traitor and tell their leaders so. It was the Primarchs, Eidolon, Fabius Bile, Abaddon, Erebus and the like, who broke the Emporers edicts and purposefully (in one way or another and not always for 'evil' reasons) turned from the Imperium and began their descent into Chaos. Due to their inspirational leadership, the majority of their Legions turned as well.

Its a common misconception that Chaos = Evil. They are two entirely seperate measurements. I'm sure alot of people here remember the old D&D scale:
Lawful <---> Chaotic (please don't confuse this with CHAOS, its merely a corrilation)
Good <---> Evil

There are plenty of examples where someone who turns Chaotic isn't evil. The Soul Drinkers (Chaotic/Good anyone?) are a good example, right or wrong, they did things that were wrong and paid dearly, leading to them embracing Chaos, even if not on purpose, they didn't realize they were doing it, but they did embrace Chaos, ignorance is no excuse, I'm sure I remember a 40k quote similar to that. They of course, turned from Chaos which saved them from total corruption. So did the Blood Angels ala Dues Encarmine/Sanguinis.

Magnus and The Thousand Sons did the same, they completely embraced Chaos, but for good reasons, they just got screwed over.
If you believe the book Legion so did the Alpha/Omeggon.

Evil, is simply a byproduct of the taint Chaos brings. Embracing Chaos, leads to just that, chaotic behaviour. Valuing yourself over others, personal gain over your "families(species/empires/whatever)". Basicly a general degredation of morality. This will almost always lead to "Evil" behaviour. Example: A messenger brings you bad news, it sucks but hes still one of your guys, even if he is a lowely serf. Even an angry Flesh Tearer would prolly let him run away. Abaddon would most likely use his guts for wall paintings.
Look at Slannesh. Its version of Chaos is pure emotion to extreme levels, the novel Fulgrim points this out very well.


Since I'm going off on a tangent; back to the main point. It is implied that the Grey Knights are founded off loyalist-traitors. I believe it completely and it makes alot of sense, who better to be your top notch super loyal Demon/Chaos hunters than those who fought their brothers for their "father" instead of the other way around. The Geneseed can't be the reason the Legions turned traitor, if they were then how would multipule squads, and many ranking Captains not turn too? If I recall, nearly Lokens entire company stayed loyal, as did most of Tarvitz'; including a Dreadnought.

The Blood Ravens could easily be a small group (company?) of 1k Sons, who hid when the whole heresy went down, you didn't really think that during the crusade every single 1k Sons group was on Prospero do you? Look at it from their perspective; cut off from their Legion, rumors rampant about the Heresy going down and war on holy Terra (remember Astartes on Astartes war is unheard of, as is turning traitor). No idea what Magnus is up to, and no communication from Prospero.
After the whole thing blows over, that same group hears that Magnus and most of the Sons ran off with the traitors, who lost badly. The rest of the Astartes are visciously hunting anyone who even LOOKS at them cross-eyed. The Emperor himselve nearly dead, as well as half the Primarchs. These guys decide they don't want to run off and join the traitors; so they hide and after a founding or two, show up as the Blood Ravens pretending they don't know anything about their origins, and the newer guys don't if they are anything as good as the Dark Angels about hiding dark little secrets.
Alot can happen in the 10 thousand years after a civil war. All the Astartes records are kept on Terra and on Mars, the two places that got hit the hardest, not to mention all the fluff stating that MORE records got lost during the interm (the imperium really needs to start backing up their harddrives...).
So their Geneseed gets tested, its pure (enough), and they chalk it up to bad Administrative records, and violia you have the Blood Ravens, loyalist Thousand Sons with a secret to rival the Dark Angels.
Keep in mind all but the very highest, if even them by now, don't realize it. So either to hide the truth, or just to find it, they embrace all knowledge, and relics they can find, regardless of who its from cause... well they don't have any of their own. It would look pretty suspicious if they started trying to find Magnus or Arhimans relics....

If anything I think that Grey Knights/Blood Ravens being based from Loyalist traitors ADDS to the fluff, much more than detracts.

-----
Sorry for the huge read, tried to post this quick before I have to leave, so don't mind the errors!

LexxBomb
21-04-2009, 23:23
Then again there's a picture of a Furioso pattern Dreadnought in the Black Templars codex as well...

The 'Index Astartes: Blood Ravens' specifically stated that the link with the Blood Angels (much like the link with the Raven Guard) was likely based on noting but the similar names.

yer but when DoW was first published the Black Templars didn't have their own codex (unless you count codex Armageddon) and back then only the Blood Angels had the Furioso Dreadnaught.

the fact that one is in the Black Templars is probably a mistake made by the Heavy Metal team or the designer of the codex (to sell more models of it)... fluff wise only the Blood Angels have them and in order for the fluff to change there needs to be at least a reference in the time line of the Furioso being adopted as acceptable tech by the tech priest of mars.

sgtNACHO
04-07-2009, 05:04
There are so many theories out there we got
:Blood Angels successors Doesn't sound very fun or "plot twist" to me

:1K Sons Loyalist/geneseed, possible in many aspects

:Mixture of multiple different chapter, unless in 14th or 21st founding would be unheard of, and even in those i doubt they screwed with seed that much

:Hamsters and cobra venom, plausible though I'm not a fan of Space hamster droppings, so I reject this one :)

I'm going to throw a few ideas in there.

Maybe they are 1k Sons (during heresy) who went to a planet and in their sleep a virus or something hit them and gave them amnesia, they wake up knowing only their language, they're Space Marines, and their armor is red and gold.
They spend centuries trying to figure out who they are, when they can't they decide who they are, they call themselves blood(red armor) Ravens(they like birdies) and change their armor since they don't know whats going on really, so they want to start new.
They're discovered by Imperium who asks "WTF r u?" They say "We're Space marines, we are Blood Ravens." They decide the Imperium = Good so they chill with them and slowly pick up on what to do to fit in with the Imperium. They hear about the HH and they miss the connection of 1k Sons, so they go on doing what they do. They know they have a Primarch but don't know who, so they have the Unnamed Primarch!
Occasionally a Blood Raven will learn about their mysterious past somehow, and on even more rare occasions will learn of their connection to 1k Sons (such as Captain Angelos) Then they decide that revealing such things to the chapter would bring death to them, so they keep quiet.


Another theory, early foundings lets say 3rd 4th. The High Lords need some SuperMarines
They get a crazy idea, lets throw all our buddies' geneseeds and splotch them together to make one uber chapter of doom!
So they proceed, what happens is the grossest tainting of geneseed since the Weregeld. Out of 50 subjects, 40 died in an explosion of blood and gore, 5 Killed themselves to save themselves from the pain, and 4 destroyed their holding cells and killed their AdMech overseers only to be silenced by Virus Bomb Virus. But 1! One single Marine didn't leave his pod, one never seemed to fully develop properly, this marine seemed to be growing naturally just at an extremely slow pace. After 7 years in internment, this marine finally left his pod. He seemed normal enough, no mutations, no crazy side effects, not even Space Wolf wolfiness or Blood Angel flaw. He seemed to have stable geneseed slightly under par of Ultramarines.
This whole undertaking had been a mistake and was expunged from any possible records, and even a few scientists on the project, with big mouths, were silenced. The experiment had never happened except for this one marine, who was unsure of his place in the universe. The High Lords decided to mind wipe him, of the whole experiment, as it never happened instead they put him in stasis. the high Lords then go hard to work working with the geneseed, they work with it and even remove a few geneseeds such as Raven Guard and Space Wolf genes. Once it was deemed stable enough They revived the guy, saying he had to start a new chapter that would be called the Blood Ravens. So the high Lords make a chapter of these guys with crazy wierd geneseed that manages to balance itself out. But none of them know who they are and are never told who they are so they come up with stuff on their own and search for knowledge.

That was a little long was'nt it?

johnmcl7
04-07-2009, 09:45
I think the Imperium know what the Blood Raven's origins are but it's hidden from them rather than them having amnesia. There's no indication their geneseed is any better than other chapters, as it seems entirely free from defects I would think it would be less likely to be a hybrid geneseed from many chapters.

John

Aranel
04-07-2009, 17:33
I don't know much about Blood Raven fluff but I came across something interesting when reading Fallen Angels. The Lion cites that 'Knowledge is power guard it well' If I remember clorrectly, this is the personal motto of the Blood Ravens chapter.

Is there a possibilty that the Blood Ravens come from the Dark Angel geneseed or is this merely a coincidence

InquisitorNiels
04-07-2009, 17:41
yer but when DoW was first published the Black Templars didn't have their own codex (unless you count codex Armageddon) and back then only the Blood Angels had the Furioso Dreadnaught.

the fact that one is in the Black Templars is probably a mistake made by the Heavy Metal team or the designer of the codex (to sell more models of it)... fluff wise only the Blood Angels have them and in order for the fluff to change there needs to be at least a reference in the time line of the Furioso being adopted as acceptable tech by the tech priest of mars.

Maybe the guys who made the game said..."Hey this thing looks cool, lets add it in."

No need for there to be a connection between the two chapters. Just as Black Library authors make mistakes because it seemed cool, I'm sure they guys who made the game did the same. Do we even know if they game makers were 40k players, or if once they were told "make this game" they looked at the GW stuff and went from there?

Sceleris82
04-07-2009, 18:25
Honestly it seems pretty clear to me, that the Blood Ravens have somthing to do with the thousand sons. There is so many hints out there saying that.

The author of the books dont write in thoose hints for good messure, everything in their books have a purpose, so i see it odd to discard it with, Ahriman is lying or, its from xx persepective so its not true!

johnmcl7
04-07-2009, 20:35
I don't know much about Blood Raven fluff but I came across something interesting when reading Fallen Angels. The Lion cites that 'Knowledge is power guard it well' If I remember clorrectly, this is the personal motto of the Blood Ravens chapter.

Is there a possibilty that the Blood Ravens come from the Dark Angel geneseed or is this merely a coincidence

I've always assumed that the Blood Ravens simply took it as their motto rather than created it as the phrase is used all over the place.

John

Swope
05-07-2009, 08:43
I always entertained the idea that the Blood Ravens were one of the missing Space Marine Legions.

I can see GW introducing a new legion from a game

why not then they can build up there story through the games

PLUS that would be cool seeing as how they are my Chosen Space Marine Chapter

Urath
05-07-2009, 19:40
I think the Blood Ravens uncertain origins are a nod to the good old speculatron aspect of 40K, where things were left vague so that you could make up your own minds about them which is nice.

Recently though, Goto has been slowly grinding that down into dust with his total fail syndrome.

At the moment, it's obvious they have something to do with either the Word Bearers or Thousand Sons as they share characteristics of both, while it is more likely Thousand Sons.

Thousand Sons: Portion of the Legion that remained after Magnus and the rest vanished into the warp portal. This small portion survived and was taken by the Custodes back to Terra where they were judged, deemed loyal enough to remain but were attached to the Space Wolves or Custodes.
OR
Thousand Sons at the other end of the galaxy, sent on some mystic errand by Magnus/Ahriman. When they found out what happened to their Legion, homeworld and Magnus they went into cover and removed their insignia eventually resurfacing as Blood Ravens. Purposefully keeping their origins secret and eventually expunging them from the Chapter's historical records to prevent any Imperial faction from discovering it, even if that meant hiding it from future generations of Blood Ravens. They may not currently use Magnus' geneseed, but customs and characteristics from parent legion remained through teaching. Either that, or they send pure geneseed off to Mars and the Administratum while maintaining their own geneseed at the Omnis Arcanum.

Word Bearers: Loyalist portion that remained faithful to the Emperor, escaped Lorgar's corruption by either being too far away or direct combat. Very unlikely.

talon216
06-07-2009, 11:27
idk if this was brought up, i didnt finish everything. But...Thousand sons have many psykers b/c of the geneseed. when magnus was found and was given his legion he found them ripe with psychic mutation, because they were created with his geneseed, he had to train them to control their powers.

and the thousand sons motives are clearly known. After seeing his beloved legion turned to ash at the hands of ahriman, and not being able to kill him for being a pawn of tzeentch, he is quoted as saying "i will see the galaxy burn," and has been in his tower working on ways to accomplish this.

Compel
08-07-2009, 01:01
What it seems to me is that basically, the reason there isn't a definite answer, isn't that GW is being all cagey and clever, it's because all the different writers are off doing their own thing.

Relic are pretty much saying / strongly hinting that their choice for the Blood Raven creators are the Word Bearers. This makes logical sense for them. As far as they're likely concerned, the average guy who's mildly interested in the games story knows of only 2 chaos legions - the Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers. For Relic to choose any other one than those two, it's going to pretty much be seen as a cop out. "Oh, you know that big mystery we were setting up for 5 games, it turns out that the answer is these guys who you've never heard of! How cool is that?"

Then we have Goto who has only given the Word Bearers lip service in his books, instead introducing the 1000 Sons.

Then we have the DOW2 book, which I haven't read yet and as far as I know, might not even have anything to say about it at all.

And finally, GW. Well, you know GW as well as I do it could very well be the Space Monkeys from Uranus that created the Blood Ravens if they ever state something concrete about them.

pookie
08-07-2009, 13:04
Relic are pretty much saying / strongly hinting that their choice for the Blood Raven creators are the Word Bearers. This makes logical sense for them. As far as they're likely concerned, the average guy who's mildly interested in the games story knows of only 2 chaos legions - the Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers. For Relic to choose any other one than those two, it's going to pretty much be seen as a cop out. "Oh, you know that big mystery we were setting up for 5 games, it turns out that the answer is these guys who you've never heard of! How cool is that?"



i totaly disagree, those two Chaos Legions are not amongst the 4 most would know, they are on the perifiral, and its funny bexause a lot of people think the Word Bearers are the World Bearers.

World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Emperors Children are more well known, the possibly Iron Warriors and Dark Angels.... :evilgrin: before WB and AL.

Weaver
08-07-2009, 14:45
Just to add another one of those ambiguous (or perhaps not so...) little 'hints' that I had noticed (pardon if this has already been addressed at some point - I read the thread but didn't see anything to that extent) is taken from the Horus Heresy Art Books (yes I am well aware of the reputation associated here).

Regardless, in one of the books (I can get you all a page number later), it is made mention that one of the chapters of the Thousand Sons Legion is known as the 'Corvi Sanguini'. I mean, there are 'hints' and then there's flat out telling, and that kind of feels more like the latter to me...

Compel
08-07-2009, 18:12
i totaly disagree, those two Chaos Legions are not amongst the 4 most would know, they are on the perifiral


I think you missed the point of the post. To a 40k player, yes they are perhaps the less common ones. But to a PC gamer, who ultimately, Relic are mainly marketting to, the 1000 Sons might as well not exist. Without previously establishing the 1000 Sons -in a Dawn of War game- they are simply not a viable answer -for Relic.-

It seems entirely possible that 2 "canons" will be created, one for Relic, one for GW.

In saying that, if Relic has a 1000 sons character, or have then as an antagonist in the inevitable Chaos expansion, then all the theories are blown completely open again.

Askari
09-07-2009, 12:58
yer but when DoW was first published the Black Templars didn't have their own codex (unless you count codex Armageddon) and back then only the Blood Angels had the Furioso Dreadnaught.


The Chaos Legions also have "furioso" style Dreadnoughts... :p

That said, I don't think the fact the Thousand Sons don't appear in the games should affect the Blood Ravens' origins. The games also don't show how psyker-based the Blood Ravens are, or how the Alpha Legion are unlikely to use a Bloodthirster. Pure PC Gamers are unlikely to know that the Blood Ravens have to be descended from any of the 18 Legions.

Of course, I'd love for them to be Thousand Sons... as I have armies of both =)

LexxBomb
09-07-2009, 13:12
since when do Chaos legions have Furioso dreadnaughts... I have never seen this in any fluff source, and I sure do not remember reading it in any chaos codex

Lord Damocles
09-07-2009, 13:16
Chaos Dreads can have 2 CCWs. Thus 'Furioso style'.

(Codex: Chaos Space Marines (5th ed.), pg.95)

Cygnusmaximus
09-07-2009, 13:23
Regardless, in one of the books (I can get you all a page number later), it is made mention that one of the chapters of the Thousand Sons Legion is known as the 'Corvi Sanguini'. I mean, there are 'hints' and then there's flat out telling, and that kind of feels more like the latter to me...

If that is the case, I don't really think there's much more room for argument - I mean, they didn't even change their name!

pookie
09-07-2009, 13:31
I think you missed the point of the post. To a 40k player, yes they are perhaps the less common ones. But to a PC gamer, who ultimately, Relic are mainly marketting to, the 1000 Sons might as well not exist. Without previously establishing the 1000 Sons -in a Dawn of War game- they are simply not a viable answer -for Relic.-

It seems entirely possible that 2 "canons" will be created, one for Relic, one for GW.

In saying that, if Relic has a 1000 sons character, or have then as an antagonist in the inevitable Chaos expansion, then all the theories are blown completely open again.

sorry, i did miss that yes, i can see what you mean now.

ashc
09-07-2009, 13:39
Regardless, in one of the books (I can get you all a page number later), it is made mention that one of the chapters of the Thousand Sons Legion is known as the 'Corvi Sanguini'. I mean, there are 'hints' and then there's flat out telling, and that kind of feels more like the latter to me...

Subtle like a brick to the face.

Urath
09-07-2009, 13:47
If you were blind, had no sense of touch or hearing... Then yeah, I guess that would be subtle :p

ToXiK
09-07-2009, 14:29
Just to add another one of those ambiguous (or perhaps not so...) little 'hints' that I had noticed (pardon if this has already been addressed at some point - I read the thread but didn't see anything to that extent) is taken from the Horus Heresy Art Books (yes I am well aware of the reputation associated here).

Regardless, in one of the books (I can get you all a page number later), it is made mention that one of the chapters of the Thousand Sons Legion is known as the 'Corvi Sanguini'. I mean, there are 'hints' and then there's flat out telling, and that kind of feels more like the latter to me...

will be interesting to see if this comes up in the next HH books for some clarification that they happed to be away or dont turn to chaos and are the loyalists from the 1k sons who turn on there brothers and travel with the wolves or just run away.

This pretty much confirms it for me before this i had very few doubt now i have none

pookie
09-07-2009, 16:14
wheres this coming from that the TS had Traitor members and Loyal members? the whole Legion was Loyal, until Horus twisted the emps orders and sent russ in.

they were untill Magnus fled still Loyal, realing from the attack, they sought side with Horus, purely becuase they thought they were not welcome within the IoM.

Captain Thule
09-07-2009, 20:11
wheres this coming from that the TS had Traitor members and Loyal members? the whole Legion was Loyal, until Horus twisted the emps orders and sent russ in.

they were untill Magnus fled still Loyal, realing from the attack, they sought side with Horus, purely becuase they thought they were not welcome within the IoM.

It is only theories, as far as I know. But it seems logical that some would have remained loyal to The Emperor, seeing as how that happend in almost every other traitor legion. I don't know if there was any loyal marines in the Iron Warriors, Night Lords or Alpha Legion, but my guess would be that they had their share of breakouts too. Maybe not the Night Lords though, they all seemed like a nasty bunch... :D

ToXiK
10-07-2009, 08:47
yeah mine is just a theory going on the fact that the other traitor legions had loyalist elements and with the fact that they thousand sons left prospero not loyal (had gone to chaos to save his legion when russ broke his back) through a warp portal. the blood ravens came back to a deserted and ruined planet then headed for the nearest legion to find out what happened maybe?

pookie
10-07-2009, 13:55
It is only theories, as far as I know. But it seems logical that some would have remained loyal to The Emperor, seeing as how that happend in almost every other traitor legion. I don't know if there was any loyal marines in the Iron Warriors, Night Lords or Alpha Legion, but my guess would be that they had their share of breakouts too. Maybe not the Night Lords though, they all seemed like a nasty bunch... :D

But it isnt Logical, the TS were attacked ( and where the only one ) by a Loyal Legion, the others turned on themselves and purged there Ranks.

The TS didnt have to Purge there Ranks, as they had that done for them by the SW's, after that they will all have followed Magnus, who only turned to Horus, because he couldnt stand against both the Loyalists and Traitors, he sided with the Brothers who opened there Arms and welcomed him.

Though had Russ not ahd his orders changed, then Magnus could quite easily have stayed loyal especially since the HH was kicking off, a great way to show dear ol dad your not a Traitor is to go out and kick some traitorus brothers ass.

ToXiK
10-07-2009, 14:03
yeah but we dont know where the blood ravens company were at the sacking of prospero say that the big E contacted them and told them to meet suchandsuch here we dont have enough info like i said the may touch upon this in the HH books i mean we know that not all the thousand sons were at prospero as molkap (sp) was with the guys in BFTA

pookie
10-07-2009, 14:26
yeah but we dont know where the blood ravens company were at the sacking of prospero say that the big E contacted them and told them to meet suchandsuch here we dont have enough info like i said the may touch upon this in the HH books i mean we know that not all the thousand sons were at prospero as molkap (sp) was with the guys in BFTA

Imhotep? oh wait thats him from the Mummy :D

nah, a single one doesnt mean that an entire Company wasnt present, its more than likly that after Russ sacked Prospero, that Magnus recalled all TS back, after all, after that why would any TS stay Loyal?

im still not convinced that he BR are what people think, after all thers been so many Founding's of Loyal Chapters, some of which ( like the 13th Founding ) are unknown, imo its more likly they are from the Cursed founding rather than directly from TS Seed Proper ( ie created from, but not actually part of the Original TS's )

ToXiK
10-07-2009, 14:47
theres bubba hotep thats a mummy that stalks old crazy people :-)

maybe but the are from a cursed founding but why would one guy be off on his own? like i say see if they come up in a HH book they like to try and spring things on us there

lotrchampion
10-07-2009, 14:51
I follow the 'Thousand Sons descendants' line of thinking. The number of Psykers, the armour, the ideologies, etc, point so clearly to them. The only mystery to my mind is how they survived the Heresy, and what happened to them to make them the chapter we know today.

Captain Thule
10-07-2009, 15:31
But it isnt Logical, the TS were attacked ( and where the only one ) by a Loyal Legion, the others turned on themselves and purged there Ranks.

The TS didnt have to Purge there Ranks, as they had that done for them by the SW's, after that they will all have followed Magnus, who only turned to Horus, because he couldnt stand against both the Loyalists and Traitors, he sided with the Brothers who opened there Arms and welcomed him.

Good point. But where all the TS gathered on Prospero during the attack? If not, it's not unlikely that a few marines, or maybe even a whole company, remained unaware of the events and weren't told what had happend when they got back to their destroyed homeworld.

Maybe they were told that Prospero had been destroyed by Horus and the other traitor legions, and that the other TS had all fallen in battle. But that wouldn't explain why they changed their name.

Maybe The Emperor realized he had been wrong and were in desperate use of psykers to use against Horus and the other legions. He could have met with the few remaining marines himself and fed them a story about how the rest of the legion wen't bad for some reason. If they believed him (and this is The Emperor ;)), it's not unlikely they would be formed into a new force. Maybe they were even supposed to be formed into a new legion, but then The Emperor died and Roboute Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes. Who knows? :p

It's just theories, but it's fun to speculate.

Askari
10-07-2009, 15:31
im still not convinced that he BR are what people think, after all thers been so many Founding's of Loyal Chapters, some of which ( like the 13th Founding ) are unknown, imo its more likly they are from the Cursed founding rather than directly from TS Seed Proper ( ie created from, but not actually part of the Original TS's )

I agree, I think they are descendants from the Thousand Sons geneseed, not "loyal" Thousand Sons, since none of the Thousand Sons wanted to go traitor anyway, they were the betrayed. Being declared heretics, random squads of Thousand Sons would have been hunted down, or fled to rejoin their Primarch.

I'll also concede that with Ahriman in particular, they may have manipulated their gene-brothers, effectively creating a loyal image of themselves in the Blood Ravens, or may even have indirectly caused their founding.

thelightbringer
11-07-2009, 00:19
Anyone know what page in the Horus Heresy Collected Visions it is!!??

InquisitorNiels
11-07-2009, 02:15
Well maybe they are a loyal batch of TS marines from the heresy, knowing that they will be hunted down and killed they instead hide out, change their name and armour and wait. Some time goes by and they come out of hiding, all new marines are kept in the dark about their past, only the oldest, and now few original TS know their true history, but they dont share one bit of it, not the tiniest shred.

Now we have a chapter of loyal Blood Ravens, that as the original members die, so does the secret of having TS gene seed.

Lost_Heretic
11-07-2009, 03:48
but who's story is more tragic than the 1k Sons?

The Celestial Lions. :cries:

Nazguire
11-07-2009, 10:49
The reason that Mhotep stayed loyal, just as why the Space Wolf didn't kill him on first sight, was because they were all cut off from the Legion. Skrall didn't know that Angron had went traitor, and stayed loyal as a result. So when he was taunted with the fact that Angron had gone traitor, he didn't believe it and threw Brazentooth through a window (I think...) To these Legionnaires who were cut off from their Legion on extensive far away deployments, they wouldn't know any better.

The same went with Mhotep. He didn't know that Russ had just obliterated Prospero, almost killed his Primarch and burned Prospero and Tisca to the ground and that the Imperium was hunting the Thousand Sons. Or you can be sure that he would have rebelled or tried to escape and rejoin his Legion, just as you can be sure that the Space Wolf would have cut Mhotep into pieces as soon as he saw him if he had known.

They were on the Eastern Fringe. The very edge of the Great Crusade's boundaries. News travels slow there.

Angel of the Black Parade
11-07-2009, 15:03
It is only theories, as far as I know. But it seems logical that some would have remained loyal to The Emperor, seeing as how that happend in almost every other traitor legion. I don't know if there was any loyal marines in the Iron Warriors, Night Lords or Alpha Legion, but my guess would be that they had their share of breakouts too. Maybe not the Night Lords though, they all seemed like a nasty bunch... :D

But Alpha Legion are technically, supposedly, apparently, loyal. They turned to chaos for a greater good.

Which is good. I like greater good(s) :D

Captain Thule
11-07-2009, 16:16
But Alpha Legion are technically, supposedly, apparently, loyal. They turned to chaos for a greater good.

Which is good. I like greater good(s) :D

That's true, but their might still be people in the legion that didn't agree with the decision that Alpharius Omegon took. It's a rather controversial thing to do, to turn against The Emperor for The Emperor. Who knows, their might actually be a sequel to Legion in which one of the twin primarchs turns against his brother for that very reason. That would be one interesting battle. :D

Askari
11-07-2009, 18:18
But Alpha Legion are technically, supposedly, apparently, loyal. They turned to chaos for a greater good.

Which is good. I like greater good(s) :D

Did they?

They were told that's what they have to do, to save humanity. The Alpha Legion, especially the Primarchs, hate being told what to do however, and like being the ones doing the controlling, not the other way around.

pookie
13-07-2009, 12:53
The reason that Mhotep stayed loyal, just as why the Space Wolf didn't kill him on first sight, was because they were all cut off from the Legion. Skrall didn't know that Angron had went traitor, and stayed loyal as a result. So when he was taunted with the fact that Angron had gone traitor, he didn't believe it and threw Brazentooth through a window (I think...) To these Legionnaires who were cut off from their Legion on extensive far away deployments, they wouldn't know any better.

The same went with Mhotep. He didn't know that Russ had just obliterated Prospero, almost killed his Primarch and burned Prospero and Tisca to the ground and that the Imperium was hunting the Thousand Sons. Or you can be sure that he would have rebelled or tried to escape and rejoin his Legion, just as you can be sure that the Space Wolf would have cut Mhotep into pieces as soon as he saw him if he had known.

They were on the Eastern Fringe. The very edge of the Great Crusade's boundaries. News travels slow there.

this is my thoughts, they are represented diffrent to lets say the Company of Word Bearers sat on terra, as a way of making it look like the Legion was still Loyal.

They were isolated and because of this, it doesnt give my credance to the TS having Larger forces out there who didnt know there Loyal Legion had been decimated and then fled to teh Sfaty of Horus.

BR = TS just doesnt stack for me, certainly may carry some of the Geen Seed, but they aint from a lost company imo.

Lord Damocles
13-07-2009, 13:34
Regardless, in one of the books (I can get you all a page number later), it is made mention that one of the chapters of the Thousand Sons Legion is known as the 'Corvi Sanguini'. I mean, there are 'hints' and then there's flat out telling, and that kind of feels more like the latter to me...
Having just re-read Collected Visions, I can find absolutely no mention of this.

Urath
13-07-2009, 14:06
Maybe it was on Lexicanum or something or in another book entirely and poor old Weaver just confused it.

Weaver
13-07-2009, 14:12
yeah, me neither...which is very strange, because at the same time, I have a very distinct recollection. I'll keep digging, but in mean time, consider what I said null and void. Sorry

Madness_
13-07-2009, 17:15
Yeah please, find out, I'll have it added in the Lexicanum if you find it.

We're proceeding to clean it up a bit, so all the hot "souce" is welcome.

Satan
05-03-2010, 11:05
Well, pardon the threadomancy, but with the release of A Thousand Sons some new info has come to light and I thought it would be better to discuss it in this thread rather than in the HH12-one. Also this was the only coherent Blood Ravens thread out there with a good summary from the DoW-novels.

In A Thousand Sons a remembrancer, when utilised by Ahriman and a couple of other sons in order to glance into the future, states (roughly) the following:

The wolves are at the door and hungering for blood. The Ravens, see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood cry out for salvation and knowledge but it is denied. A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason.

To me, that spells it out pretty clearly, but I've still got about a hundred pages to go so it might well be a reference to something else. I also assume that the latter part of the above is just a reference to something well-known occuring during the heresy, like the death of Ferrus Manus or something similiar.

thearchiver
06-03-2010, 03:59
Thats probbly more to do with the pending nastyness thats coming the raven guards way with the attempt at cloning

Also GW dont own the IP to the Blood Ravens the cant include them in the cannon background thats why all the DoW Books have TM after Dawn of war, there a seperate game world.

Malitov
06-03-2010, 04:04
Keep reading. The Raven bit gets cleared up later on.

Satan
06-03-2010, 07:11
Keep reading. The Raven bit gets cleared up later on.

No it didn't. I must've missed it in that case.

Of course, it could have something to do with the Raven Guard, but the

Raven of Blood crying out for salvation and knowledge

don't fit at all with that.

Askari
06-03-2010, 10:22
Also GW dont own the IP to the Blood Ravens the cant include them in the cannon background thats why all the DoW Books have TM after Dawn of war, there a seperate game world.

Errr... yes they do. Dawn of War in it's entirety is the copyright of Games Workshop. The TM after the Dawn of War name is there to show that Dawn of War is no mere book title, it's a copyrighted product.


Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War -- Copyright © Games Workshop Limited 2008. Dawn of War, the Dawn of War logo, Dawn of War – Winter Assault, Dawn of War – Winter Assault logo, Dawn of War – Dark Crusade, Dawn of War – Dark Crusade logo, Dawn of War – Soulstorm and the Dawn of War – Soulstorm logo, GW, Games Workshop, the Games Workshop logo, Space Marine, 40K, Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000 Device, the Double-headed Eagle device and all associated marks, logos, places, names, creatures, races and race insignia/devices/logos/symbols, vehicles, locations, weapons, units and unit insignia, characters, products, illustrations and images from the Dawn of War game and the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2008, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world, and used under license. All Rights Reserved. Source Code for the Dawn of War game © 2004 THQ Inc. All Rights Reserved. GameSpy and the “Powered by GameSpy” design are trademarks of GameSpy Industries, Inc. All rights reserved. THQ, Relic Entertainment and their respective logos are trademarks and/or registered trademarks of THQ Inc. All other trademarks, logos and copyrights are property of their respective owners.

Claudio
06-03-2010, 11:09
Surely we´ll see something in Chaos Rising. I´m sure it will be a secret so dark that it will shake the very foundations of the hole empire!

Malitov
07-03-2010, 19:17
No it didn't. I must've missed it in that case.

Of course, it could have something to do with the Raven Guard, but the

Raven of Blood crying out for salvation and knowledge

don't fit at all with that.

Find the part where Ankhu Anmen or however you spell his name is trying to rescue all the books and scrolls from the library.

Satan
07-03-2010, 20:12
Find the part where Ankhu Anmen or however you spell his name is trying to rescue all the books and scrolls from the library.

Ah, yes. But:

He looks at the Raven and asks What are you? A vision of the future? A symbol of salvation?

So A) there's a raven precent, and in light of his question that makes it even more suspicious, B) there's not a whole lot of reference to blood apart from himself and C) he's not crying out for knowledge. Not exactly in any dramatic way anyhow.

Finally, there's D) There's nothing about any lost sons, of course the Thousand sons would and could be logically seen as such though. I'd say it's ambivalent. And E) She says "Ravens" during her raving, as in plural.

GideonRavenor
07-03-2010, 20:20
I can't remember, but is there the slightest, vaguest chance of Ankhu Anen surviving? If so, that's where they come from. Otherwise, I blame it on Thousand Sons with the fleet when it was sent off, or away from Prospero.

It's almost too much that the colour schemes are similar, the specialities similar and that it also fits in with a mysterious past. To me the balance is irrecovably tipped by that prophecy, and the revealed use of a raven icon by the Thousand Sons (the Corvidae).

Ron Burgundy
07-03-2010, 20:26
I can't remember, but is there the slightest, vaguest chance of Ankhu Anen surviving? If so, that's where they come from. Otherwise, I blame it on Thousand Sons with the fleet when it was sent off, or away from Prospero.

It's almost too much that the colour schemes are similar, the specialities similar and that it also fits in with a mysterious past. To me the balance is irrecovably tipped by that prophecy, and the revealed use of a raven icon by the Thousand Sons (the Corvidae).

^I prefer this. Corvidae plus Thousand Sons fleet elements scattered with secret orders. The Corvidae even have an actual raven badge on their shoulderguard, in the centre of the Thousand Sons emblem.

GitzBlasta
07-03-2010, 22:00
I'm new here so be gentle but Magnus clearly sends his entire fleet away with secret orders (as mentioned above). These orders are only to be opened upon arrival at their destination which I think is Thranx (my copy of A Thousand Sons is in another room and I'm far too lazy to go get it).
What's to say that these orders aren't to lay low until the Heresy is over, re-paint their armour a bit and re-integrate themselves into Imperial Society?
This could lead to all sorts of coolness regarding freeing the Thousand Sons from Chaos etc etc. Admittedly this is all speculation but that's what I love about 40k :P

After reading this thread I want to read the Dawn of War books, I tried the 1st one but got frustrated with the author's complete lack of knowledge of the 40k universe. I gather from other people's comments here that he's learnt what he's talking about now.

Lord Damocles
07-03-2010, 22:10
After reading this thread I want to read the Dawn of War books, I tried the 1st one but got frustrated with the author's complete lack of knowledge of the 40k universe. I gather from other people's comments here that he's learnt what he's talking about now.
Hehe. Goto knowing what he's talking about...

Dawn of War(s): Ascension and Tempest are slightly more readable than the original (to be fair, I only ever got as far as chapter 2, but oh my is it badly written). Both make links between the Blood Ravens and Thousand Sons. In Tempest Ahriman practically says it straight to K... Kho... Kha... whatever the Librarian's name is.

Ph4lanx
07-03-2010, 22:31
I believe you're referring to Rhamah, who gets lost on an Eldar Library-world and subsequently loses his head (literally!) to a Harlequin :)

Lord Damocles
07-03-2010, 22:34
Yeah him.

Such a great character that I had no recollection of his name... :p

:shifty:

GitzBlasta
07-03-2010, 22:39
Well, I'm glad it's not just me who struggled with the first DoW novel! It was when the Devastator Marines started firing their grenade launchers that I think I threw it away in disgust.

Ph4lanx
07-03-2010, 22:50
Well, I'm glad it's not just me who struggled with the first DoW novel! It was when the Devastator Marines started firing their grenade launchers that I think I threw it away in disgust.

No you weren't the only one :) However I play Blood Ravens as my army, so I forced myself to read anything relating to them, even by Goto :)

Back on topic though, I am one of the firm believers of the Thousand Sons theory. When I was at Black Library Live 2010 last month I spoke with Graham McNeill about what might be included in Thousand Sons with regards to Blood Ravens, and there was a definite cheeky smile from him when I mentioned the Corvidae and Corvi Sanguini, so I'm even stronger now on the belief that they are a successor chapter of the Thousand Sons :)

GitzBlasta
07-03-2010, 22:55
I have to say, the Horus Heresy series is making everything awesome.
I don't know much about the Blood Ravens, short of playing the DoW games but the Thousand Sons theory makes perfect sense, especially after reading A Thousand Sons.
This begs the next question though - what's the point? Is Magnus still loyal? Did he secretly create the Blood Ravens to help him break out of Tzeentch's grip?
In actualy fact, nowhere in A Thousand Sons is Tzeentch mentioned. Magnus right until the end stays loyal, he acknowledges his error and takes his punishment, only doing something about it at the last second to save his sons. What's to say the Blood Ravens aren't his attempt to help out the Imperium? He can't help the Imperium himself, he's rightly or wrongly known as one of the Chaos Primarchs now!

Ron Burgundy
07-03-2010, 23:35
Helping out the Imperium and using the sent-away fleets to get out of Tzeentch's thrall might be overstating his motives. Magnus is really strongly characterised as both wanting to safeguard knowledge and save his sons to the exclusion of almost everything else; he risks combat with the Space Wolves earlier in the novel in pursuit of the former and strikes daemonic bargains for the latter. Stepping in to fight Russ, throwing away his earlier stance, is also a result of these motives.

So, dispersing the fleet in secret smacks more of just making sure both the 1KSons and their knowledge survive...his initial wish was for the Prosperine Sons to do nothing and be wiped out, intending this behaviour to demonstrate their loyalty. Perhaps he said to dispersed guys, "hide until it blows over and once everyone realises we were loyal and maybe has 2nd thoughts about the whole psyker marines thing you can come out".
Then when the Prospero plan went awry with Ahriman disobeying Magnus (destroying/saving the Legion for the first time? Rubric being the second) this plan was scuppered. So the hiding 1KSons stayed hiding...until they found a way, as Gitzblasta said, to sneak back into the Imperium, with a long-range plan to generate a descendent Chapter. That they wipe the knowledge of their origin from...somehow. To protect them? To preserve what the loyalist Thousand Sons stood for and represented...
Or as part of a Tzeentchian joke/scheme...

GitzBlasta
07-03-2010, 23:41
Would it have been past Magnus to put some sort of long-term spell on the escaping fleet to wipe their memories until a certain event happened? Like Magnus and the rest of the 1k Sons being proven innocent? Just speculation!
Maybe the Blood Ravens are Magnus' revenge on Tzeentch? "You may have corrupted us but these guys are going to get you back!"
It may seem a stretch to say that Magnus could ever outwit Tzeentch, the god of scheming but I'm pretty sure the Emperor has done it (I can't remember my source but a Fallen Angel re-awakens in the Warp and messes up a load of Tzeentch's plans - the moral of the story being the only being more cunning than Tzeentch is the Emperor). If the Emperor created Magnus to be his replacement on the Golden Throne then possibly, just possibly, Magnus is powerful enough to do something similar.

LexxBomb
08-03-2010, 06:14
Would it have been past Magnus to put some sort of long-term spell on the escaping fleet to wipe their memories until a certain event happened? Like Magnus and the rest of the 1k Sons being proven innocent? Just speculation!
Maybe the Blood Ravens are Magnus' revenge on Tzeentch? "You may have corrupted us but these guys are going to get you back!"
It may seem a stretch to say that Magnus could ever outwit Tzeentch, the god of scheming but I'm pretty sure the Emperor has done it (I can't remember my source but a Fallen Angel re-awakens in the Warp and messes up a load of Tzeentch's plans - the moral of the story being the only being more cunning than Tzeentch is the Emperor). If the Emperor created Magnus to be his replacement on the Golden Throne then possibly, just possibly, Magnus is powerful enough to do something similar.

"Eye of Terror" I think you are refering to and it was a Tzeetnch Greater Demon (of a low level thus showing that even at greater demonhood there are still levels), not the god himself.