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Goq Gar
30-09-2006, 16:42
Whats this I hear about Some "Rat like slave traders"?

I asked why theres no skaven in 40k yesterday, and someone shouted out "What about those slave trader guys?" I inquired further but he didnt know much about them.

Can I slap him for making up nonsense? Or is this true? And can I make some of said models and post the rules and pics on warseer? :D

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 16:48
I've heard the Hrud is 40k ratmen. They've been mentioned in Codex Imperial Guard as undertaking migrations (fitting, thinking of verminous population problems) and in a Chapter Approved article where xenos-mount cavalry undertook a campaign of manoeuvres againt them.

Xisor
30-09-2006, 17:39
No Ratmen noted in 40k I'm afraid, not mentioned. Specifically not the Hrud. See Xenology for them being bug-eyed bendy monsters, not ratmen.

Xisor

t-tauri
30-09-2006, 18:17
Hrud were mooted as the 40k equivalent of Skaven for a long time and the picture of the nocturnal warrior in the 3rd edition BBB was very Skaven like but Xenology has shown that the Hrud aren't skaven like at all. Never were.

CauCaSus
30-09-2006, 18:31
Hrud have a lot of skaven-like traits. They live in "warrens" under ground, they use "warp-plasma" (warp-fire?) based weaponry, they seem to fight in a very skirmish-like way, in that they always retreat with few casualties other than standing their ground until the enemy forces reaches their main warrens, then they turn frenzy and fight back with extreme ferocity.

This slave-trading business is new to me though, but its yet another skaven-like trait. I think I saw an unmasked Hrud somewhere (the xenology books?) and they didn't physically look like skaven at all, maybe except for a tail.

Zzarchov
30-09-2006, 18:34
The Fight with Jezzails, 2nd Ed pictures of them were converted Skaven.

In Xenology they decided to change that..and change all those Tau minis with hooves to be wrong , its just a story, if you want Hrud as skaven, go for it.

unwanted
30-09-2006, 18:35
The Hrud doesn't have a tail in Xenology.

It's totally unlike skaven physically.

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 18:44
No Ratmen noted in 40k I'm afraid, not mentioned. Specifically not the Hrud. See Xenology for them being bug-eyed bendy monsters, not ratmen.

Xisor


Hrud were mooted as the 40k equivalent of Skaven for a long time and the picture of the nocturnal warrior in the 3rd edition BBB was very Skaven like but Xenology has shown that the Hrud aren't skaven like at all. Never were.

And we are thankful for that.

Goq Gar
30-09-2006, 19:24
So I can backhand-of-justice him on thursday, thanks.

Now on to new matters.

Why are there no skaven in 40k!?

Rats are everywhere. You'd think in 38,000 years they'd evolve a bit, considering the numerous agents they no doubt come into contact with on voyages alongside man.

We should try to figure out why there are no rat people in 40k. I say: Theres no explanation, bolter wielding clan rats NOW!

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 19:44
Rats follows where humanity goes, so they are spread throughout the Imperium and beyond. There is innumerable versions (such as wallcrawlerrats or Mordant pit-rats), and of course the occasional Chaos mutant, but no rat people- yet.

Sarge
30-09-2006, 19:53
*Points at the Ratling Snipers* They are here, they are short and furry and vicious lil brutes, but you get close and they run away.

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 19:56
Hm, it's more of a case they've evolved to becoming small (and to compensate warmth-loss and slightly weaker heart they've become furry) and after sociological circumstances becoming what they are, almost like subs and other 'deforms'.

Sarge
30-09-2006, 19:58
Yeah, but look at the Ogryn (ogres), and the long gone Squat (dwarves), they all fought for the Imperium, so it's not far to stretch that the Ratlings are the "skaven" of 40k.

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 20:01
Sad about the Squats; their image could have been effectively redone, and also helping with the image of the Imperium of an empire of empires: now there's only the realm of Ultramar. You're right, but they're not really skaven-esque; I'd rather say halflings.

Sarge
30-09-2006, 20:02
True, but there are no halfings in WH

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 20:05
Not? I'd tell you to look in the Empire or Ogre Kingdoms army books, White Dwarfs or whatever you want; if there are no halflings in Warhammer, I'm a ratling.

meneptah
30-09-2006, 20:38
if you look in jes goodwin's concept art book (the gothic and the eldritch?), there are concept pics of 40k skaven which they never used. imagine poison wind globadiers with jezzail guns and you'd be pretty close to what 40k skaven would look like, so no the hrud aren't the equivilent to skaven in the 40k universe. the reason why 40k skaven never went past concept stage was because they wouldn't have fitted into the 40k timeline apparently.

Personnally i would love to see rats in space.

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 20:41
Me too. It's The Gothic and the Eldritch.

VetSgtNamaan
30-09-2006, 23:43
Well nothing saying you can not model and greenstuff your own version of ratmen imperial guard ;) Perhaps they were tainted by chaos? Or convert skaven into 40k hmm jezzails as hvy bolters or stubbers. Sounds pretty sweet to me.

Llothlian
30-09-2006, 23:50
Mutants in a Lost and the Damned army spring to mind.

Drogmir
01-10-2006, 01:02
Well Ratlings from the imperial gaurd is the closet thing

Khaine's Messenger
01-10-2006, 05:48
Why are there no skaven in 40k!?

Which niche do you want them to fill that aren't already filled by various alien races and alien/human hybrids? "WE SHALL INHERIT!" is a Tau/Genestealer Cult sorta thing, and the entire air of conspiracy about them would break down at 40k's level of abstraction (the closest thing to Skavenblight is Commoragh, and the Inquisition is a lot more powerful and all-encompassing than the Witchhunters).


We should try to figure out why there are no rat people in 40k. I say: Theres no explanation, bolter wielding clan rats NOW!

There are generally no ratmen mentioned for the same reason that the distinction of "beastman" was dropped. It's not to say that mutants, aliens, and abhumans of similar description don't exist, just that they aren't organized like the Skaven, much less capable of posing a similarly credible threat.

Bombot
01-10-2006, 14:33
Well Ratlings from the imperial gaurd is the closet thing

Ratlings = Halflings.

Obviously.

Goq Gar
01-10-2006, 15:50
Well, I've heard alot about other alien races filling the roles a skaven 40k unit would... which makes total sense.

Still.

I've got tons of clanrat bits. And I have alot of bolters If I want them. Expect to see some wierd looking bolter wielding mutants soon :D

gunhed
01-10-2006, 16:13
I think it was on the old Portent :cries: site but I'm sure I've seen a 40K IG army made up of converted Skaven. Some of them were even wearing red berets.

Does anyone still have the link? I'd love to see those little critters again.

FlashGordon
01-10-2006, 16:22
So I can backhand-of-justice him on thursday, thanks.

Now on to new matters.

Why are there no skaven in 40k!?

Rats are everywhere. You'd think in 38,000 years they'd evolve a bit, considering the numerous agents they no doubt come into contact with on voyages alongside man.

We should try to figure out why there are no rat people in 40k. I say: Theres no explanation, bolter wielding clan rats NOW!

No, Why would rats evolve more than they already have. They get along fine with humans as they are they have for thousands of years, no need for them to evolve.

Goq Gar
01-10-2006, 16:44
They dont evolve naturally, they are introduced to some strange evolution catalyst.

Then again, answer me this. We got along fine with nature, so why did we evolve to control it?

FlashGordon
01-10-2006, 16:56
They dont evolve naturally, they are introduced to some strange evolution catalyst.

Then again, answer me this. We got along fine with nature, so why did we evolve to control it?

Yeah and maybe the rabbits would to....

Goq Gar
01-10-2006, 16:58
Maybe they would have if we didnt. How can we know?

On topic:

What do you think the 40k skaven would arm themselved with?

FlashGordon
01-10-2006, 17:04
smal brains and explosive belts.

ArtificerArmour
01-10-2006, 17:16
The bendies, or Hrud as we know them, live onboard starships inbetween decks. Bet they'e the first to flee too when the ship goes down.

The 40K universe is vast and infinite, if you want to make some rat race up, go for it.

Corai
02-10-2006, 16:20
There was a skaven deathguard army that did the rounds on the US GT circuit a few years ago. It looked the part, but I'm not sure the deathguard rules are best to represent skaven, even plaguemonks

skyfurnace
02-10-2006, 17:19
The Hrud doesn't have a tail in Xenology.

It's totally unlike skaven physically.

The Hrud in Xenology look GOOFY. That was a complete disappointment in my opinion. Kind of like a Chaos-tainted Gumby or something.

I don't have the new Codex: Tau Empire, although I should probably get one (as I'm constantly reminded by one of my friends/table nemeses) that I should "know my enemy," but I think that a cool addition to that would have been rules for creating new sub-races for the Tau. Kind of like the rules that were written for the revision of the Space Marines to allow for the creation of a new Chapter or a deviation of an existing Chapter.

With rules like that, you could EASILY incorporate a Skaven-like race into 40K and cut a WHOLE lot of corners by giving them Tau (or Kroot, if you'd like) technology and a couple of special abilities to make them worth fielding.

I think with rats, something to the effect of the Sewer Rats strat from Cities of Death would be appropriate (in all missions, even if not specificially stated) making them something along the lines of subterrenean scouts with Infiltrate. See but Don't Be Seen would be a cool variant for them. Fleet of Claw would work... stuff like that.

It could definitely be done. It would just take time and a lot of people's agreement to allow you to use them in a game. If GW would publish "Race Creation Rules" in the same manner that they publish IA supplements or VDRs, then doing stuff like this would be cake.

CoG-Aragorn
02-10-2006, 19:13
They dont evolve naturally, they are introduced to some strange evolution catalyst.

Then again, answer me this. We got along fine with nature, so why did we evolve to control it?

...Because we haven't evolved to control it. Pah!
Also, I hope you mean experiments instead of catalyst...

Bregalad
03-10-2006, 21:37
In Xenology they decided to change that..and change all those Tau minis with hooves to be wrong , its just a story, if you want Hrud as skaven, go for it.

Yes, you are right. The Tau Ethereal has feet, no hooves! :wtf:
I missed that, but I knew that I shouldn't count too much on the first background book by an author, esp. when he suggests such daring theories about Eldar/Tau relationship.
So take everything in this book with a huge amount of salt, including the Hrud info. The book is nice reading though, I like the Kroot chapter.

lapis_lazuli
06-10-2006, 21:44
Don't Aun'va's guards have feet? WD said of them "they are of mysterious origin", so maybe Ethereals with feet instead of hooves are some kind of rare breed.

Anyway, getting back on topic, I'd just like to throw my tuppence in. I reckon Hrud are a pretty good Skaven analogue. Admittedly, I have hardly any knowledge of WHFB, but after perusing the Wikipedia entry on Skaven I can see several similarities.

1. Hrud are considered vermin - they live in subterranean warrens and stowaway on Imperial ships, where they live between decks.

2. According to Wiki:


Females are docile and barely intelligent, and spend much of their lives hidden away in the nest to breed. Female skaven typically produce three to five litters a year, each containing 20 or so young.

The Hrud captured in Xenology was a female who made no aggressive overtures while in captivity, nor any attempt to communicate. She was also captured without a struggle, and seemed a bit dim witted, allowing a fuel loader to sneak up and whack her round the head with a shovel :eyebrows: . One could speculate on whether all Hrud who hide away on ships are female. Also, the female Hrud has a large egg sac with dozens of eggs.

3. Skaven are highly pious devotees of the Horned Rat, just as the Hrud have a highly developed mythology surrounding Qah. Also, the Hrud seem to be a race fragmented into disparate tribes, with a distant memory of how their god intended a better, more idyllic life for them. In a similar vein, the Horned Rat encourages the Skaven to join together to take control of the world.

4. Some of the scattered background material mentions the Hrud using Warp Plasma, and there are examples of Hrud weaponry such as the Fusil, evoking the Skaven Warpfire weapons.

5. Like the Skaven, the Hrud are intensely secretive, of course even going so far as to generate their own "cloaking field".

6. Hrud secrete various toxins for offensive/defensive purposes, much like the Skaven plague monks.

7. On a purely superficial note, the Hrud's hanging egg sac in Xenology looks vaguely like a tail. She also has ratlike facial features, at least in the decomposed form, with sharp teeth, large glassy eyes and what look like pointy ears.

Again, I'm no expert on Skaven but the similarities seem pretty obvious to a layman like me.

Alessander
07-10-2006, 06:42
Mutants in a Lost and the Damned army spring to mind.

Actually, i've used my old Heroquest Skaven as mutants in my LatD army a few times! They already come on round bases :D

Someone wrote in to WD a few years ago asking if there will ever be "Space Skaven". The mailbag guy forwarded the letter to Gav Thorpe, who said "No, no, three times, NO!"

That settles it. If you want ratmen or beastmen, use them as mutants, because that's what they are.

Tymell
07-10-2006, 07:15
I'm stunned at some people genuinelly sugesting ratlings as remotely being 40K skaven :wtf: What, because they have "rat" in the name?

Ratlings are short humanoids, with no beards, but hairy feet, well known for their cooking and appetites. Ergo, halflings. Anyone who's taking the "rat in the name" approach should possibly look at the phonetic similarity between "ratling" and "halfling" :rolleyes:

Oh, incidentally, has anyone got a pic of the Hrud from Xenology they could show people like me who haven't got it? (if that would be allowed)

CauCaSus
07-10-2006, 08:56
Someone wrote in to WD a few years ago asking if there will ever be "Space Skaven". The mailbag guy forwarded the letter to Gav Thorpe, who said "No, no, three times, NO!"

That settles it. If you want ratmen or beastmen, use them as mutants, because that's what they are.

It doesn't settle it more than GW saying they don't want Space Dwarves/Squats, but they still have Demiurg, who have many "dwarven" features like stunted growth, a love for mining and call their space-ships "stronghold" and "bastion".

They aren't "dwarves in space" like Hrud isn't "skaven in space", they are just inspired by said fantasy-races.

Voronwe[MQ]
07-10-2006, 14:04
The 'ratlings=skaven' thing pops up again. Read page 2. Ratlings is a pejorative term for them, as their sociological status is low, unsurprisingly.