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Sarge
30-09-2006, 19:46
(I have always wanted to field a combined army of Space Wolves and Sisters of Battle; after some internal thought, and a very informative discussion with a friend, I came up with a wonderful idea. If you like it, ok great; if you don't, I don't really care, either way enjoy.)

Wolves of Balder

The Wolves of Balder are a faction of the mighty Space Wolves chapter, but we are far more unique than our Fenris brethren by the means with which we support our legions, and the place we call "Home". For within the home of the Wolves of Balder, one would find themselves aboard a ship deep in space, within "The Pack", an enormous fleet of ships collected over the span of several millenia, both requisitioned and captured from Traitor Legions, and anyone else foolish enough to assault our unstoppable juggernaut. In fact, due to our continued independence, we have had to endure many fierce and bloody battles against the Ecclesiarchy who believe us to be heretics, and even rival chapters who are most envious of both our ability to resupply our forces immediately, and this wondrous fleet of ours.

As a new recruit you might notice many other things that set this chapter apart from others, such as the presence of women and even children aboard these great war vessels of ours. To an inducted brother, this is most natural, but to a new recruit like you, this is most peculiar, and as I am sure you must be asking 'Why?'. To a brother wolf, there is no greater strength than the bond of blood, and as all brother wolves are bonded by blood through the process of induction, both to the Emperor and our own Primarch, Balder, it is natural for us to bring our families with us when we leave orbit. This explains the unarmed-women and children, but not the armed women you might have seen patrolling the halls of our mighty ships; the answer to this is simple too, for they are our sister wolves. They are our sisters both in blood and honor, they fight along side their brother wolves, and brave death just as frequent; they are our mates and kin; might I state that it is strange to us why other chapters do not do the same.

Ahh, the confusion in your eyes speaks volumes young one, this is because you have not yet fought beside them, or witnessed their miracles save many fellow wolf brothers and sisters. It is true, many consider them the weaker sex, but here within the pack, brother and sister are equal, both in glory and death. Perhaps you might one day attract the attention of a sister wolf, and sire yourself many pups, as for right now you must learn about the rest of our mighty fleet.

Among the fleet there are vessels large enough to house entire industries, and they do; these factory ships build everything we need, from ship parts to ammunition. Surprised? I did tell you we are an independent chapter did I not? We have no time to settle worlds when the Imperium is at the brink, and let us not fool ourselves here, we, humanity that is, have been pushed to the brink of extinction many times by these xenos threats, and if we're going to stand any chance of survival we need to devote ourselves to fighting them.

Now nears the time for you to begin your initiation rights as a brother wolf, but before I send you off, I give you these words of advice passed onto me by the great Balder himself, "Always carry your head high, where the blades of our enemies seek to slay the brave where they stand." There are many enemies out there for us to fight, and those who would mistake us as enemies as well, but have pride in your duty to the Emperor and our Primarch Balder.

When all was said and done, the Venerable Dreadnought standing before the young initiate returned to his state of rest, awaiting the day, his brothers and sisters would call upon him to fight for humanity, the Emperor, and the honor of their Primarch Balder.

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 19:49
Excellent, I'll reply more detailed and broader later on, though I guess this is based on the fact that a Space Wolves Great Company once separated from the main Chapter and carved an empire of their own on the Eastern Fringe?

Sarge
30-09-2006, 19:57
Something simular to that, but like the Venerable Dreadnought said, they have no time for settling planets.

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 19:59
Ah, an interesting idea, really.

Sarge
30-09-2006, 20:01
Thanks, before moving this from general discussion, some one mentioned that this was simular to Battle Star Galactica, and in a way I guess it is, except the Wolves of Balder weren't forced to leave.

sralialo
01-10-2006, 18:18
I like it, and you should really do it. How are you going to paint them? I can imagine that a fully painted force, with sisters and wolves painted in the same colour scheme will look amazing.

Sarge
01-10-2006, 18:45
Monotone I would guess, maybe black power armor for the wolf lord, white power armor for the wolf preistess, metallic colors for the Venerable Dreadnought and Iron Preist; dark gray power armor for the brother wolves, and light gray power armor for the sister wolves.

Sarge
01-10-2006, 19:04
If you guys would like to see the army list, here it is:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=981563#post981563

Kegluneq
01-10-2006, 21:00
Pretty cool, but how are you differentiating between male and female Wolves? Fluffwise, the males are pretty much always going to be far tougher, stronger and longer lived, at least if they're proper Marines. Bonds of family tend to fade quickly if the wife dies two hundred years before the husband...

Sarge
01-10-2006, 21:15
By male and female wolves, I beleive you mean brother and sister wolves, correct? That is simple, the use of heavily modified SoB models for the sister wolves, and normal space wolf models for the brother wolves. As well as the paint scheme mentioned above, the use of lighter shades of gray for the sisters, and darker gray for the brothers.

Ok, not all space marines live to be 200+ you know, and those that do commonly receive life extension drugs, which last time I checked worked on all humans (hence why inquisitors can live to be 200+). If you haven't noticed, women are just as capable as men, and can even excel at combat when given the proper training (hence why I take karate lessons from my female sensei :P). As for your last statement, I beleive I have explained your question well enough for you to grasp the answer your seek.

Kegluneq
01-10-2006, 21:26
Erm, Space Marines are functionally immortal, and commonly live to a couple of centuries without the need for rejuvenatus treatment. They also have all the extra implants that allow them a much greater flexible range than, say, Sisters of Battle.

I wouldn't see them being in the same unit, but I can see specialised SoB units (heavy weapons and jetpacks) having a role in the army as distinct units. Fluffwise, I don't think you could ever give them T4 though.

Fal
01-10-2006, 22:19
I like it :cool:
I imagine them in Dark Grey :evilgrin:

Sarge
01-10-2006, 23:55
Erm, Space Marines are functionally immortal, and commonly live to a couple of centuries without the need for rejuvenatus treatment. They also have all the extra implants that allow them a much greater flexible range than, say, Sisters of Battle.

I wouldn't see them being in the same unit, but I can see specialised SoB units (heavy weapons and jetpacks) having a role in the army as distinct units. Fluffwise, I don't think you could ever give them T4 though.

Well, like I've told many before you, I don't care what you think. If you think that's mean, than I'm mean, but I tried using the ally rules, but it just got too complex, so they're all equal.

Chainsworded Codpiece
02-10-2006, 00:57
Well, like I've told many before you, I don't care what you think. If you think that's mean, than I'm mean, but I tried using the ally rules, but it just got too complex, so they're all equal.

Hey, now.

Of course you care what people think.

If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be posting this stuff.

However, I understand your aversion to trying to jam the army you want into the rules mechanics as they stand. The "Allied" rules wouldn't comfortably allow for the fluff you'd created, so you "handwaved" it. A fair move.

As another person who tires apace of the continuous fight to get serious female presence in the armies of the Imperium (in something other than vague, rare IG indivuals, equally rare Inquisiors/retinue background characters, or f@kking Sisters Repentia), I sympathize with this move.

OK, so you took "Counts As" further than others wiould like. Eh, not so terrible. And your fluff is all right. I'd say that it basically justifies what you did.

But, "I don't care?" Sure you do. And there's not a damned thing wrong with that.

Sarge
02-10-2006, 01:01
Not really, I care what they would suggest for my army list, but no one has posted, so I beleive A) It's a good list or B) they don't know what to say

Kegluneq
02-10-2006, 06:15
I didn't post anything in response to your list because I thought you hadn't integrated the female Wolves into the list yet. :/ If you're just playing with standard Marine rules then fair enough, but you are basically playing with female Space Marines, and all that entails in terms of debate on this board.

Toastrider
02-10-2006, 18:34
I know I'm begging for the hideous beatings here, but why aren't women selected as Space Marines, anyways? Is there a fluff reason, or does GW just not want to make the molds? :)

--TR

Sarge
02-10-2006, 18:40
Kegluneq, suggest a mixed Space Wolf/Sisters of Battle army list, and I will be glad to accept it. But the problem that accord when I tried to do that, was that it became too complex, and didn't fairly represent my idea of brother and sister wolves fighting shoulder to shoulder.

Fluff, something about how many of the implants require testosterone to function and grow. But I bet I could mention the discovery of a STC that allows for the creation of such implants that require estrogen instead.

Kegluneq
02-10-2006, 19:04
Kegluneq, suggest a mixed Space Wolf/Sisters of Battle army list, and I will be glad to accept it.
Er, I did. Male tactical squads, female assault and segregated heavy weapons teams. Army list balance on the wholem ight be affected but it wouldn't be so hard to tweak.

Fluff, something about how many of the implants require testosterone to function and grow. But I bet I could mention the discovery of a STC that allows for the creation of such implants that require estrogen instead.
STCs massively predate the Space Marine implants, and have nothing to do with them. What implants the Marines have are not even created by them, but carefully grown from a stock supply. Marines as they stand don't have the knowledge to make their own - unless your army includes Fabian Bile...

Sarge
02-10-2006, 19:09
You don't know anything about Space Wolves do you?

As for "suggesting" an army list, I meant write it up and post it at my army list thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51265

Who's Fabian Bile?

Kegluneq
02-10-2006, 22:29
You don't know anything about Space Wolves do you?

As for "suggesting" an army list, I meant write it up and post it at my army list thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51265
Heh, sadly I lack a codex, so I only know a little about SW army structure and would have difficulty with the army creation bit as well. But then your army is fairly uncharacteristic of a Space Wolves army as it is, so you should allow for some deviation.

Who's Fabian Bile?
D'oh, Fabius Bile. Former Apothecary to the Emperor's Children, Fabius is an expert in genetic engineering, and is central in Chaos Legion recruitment. He knows more about the creation of Space Marines than anyone bar the Emperor, and is very much a mad genius character. Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabius_Bile)

Sarge
02-10-2006, 23:23
Perhaps, but I don't see the point in trying to use a difficult combination of SW/SoB anymore, after having borrowed my freind's codi, when I could just use SW rules, and explain the reason for female SW through fluff.

Truth is this idea for an army of wolfish-humanoid-pirates has been with me for quite some time, before I even learned of WH40k, so I think it's more important to fulfill my personal desires for this army, rather than try and appease what effectively boils down to fluff crazed sexists.

Either way I can explain it quite well through fluff, which means A) The sister wolves' power armor gives them a greater boost of strength (unlikely) or B) Balder, the primarch of WoB, was a student of Fabius Bile (before Horus' heresy or even after), and created the WoB in his image of what the perfect army would be. (Because frankly the SM rely on recruiting normal everyday humans into their numbers. What do you think would happen if they didn't require recruitment and instead could breed their own replacements? They would become hunted by the Inquisition, and most likely resort to a life of piracy.)

Hellebore
03-10-2006, 04:28
Using units of sisters of battle and units of space wolves ala allies from Witchhunters I can see.

Putting sisters models IN space wolf packs and counting them as space marines I can ALSO see for gaming purposes so long as your fluff does not say they receive the same implants.

I won't go into whether or not space marines are fertile to begin with, because that has never really been covered in the background (although excesses of HGH and testosterone WILL lower sperm count and atrophy the testicles).

IF a space marine CAN reproduce, their children would not possess any of the organs they do. Much the same way that a kidney transplant recipient won't have children possessing the same genetic kidney that they do.

So, so long as backgroundwise your sisters are not engineered to be marines, I don't see a problem with having them in mixed units.

You could argue that the wolves are 'that' much better than ordinary wolves, that they make up for the lack of physical prowess the sisters possess.

And unfortunately Balder won't be a Primarch - Leman Russ is the primarch of the Space Wolves, and thus any successor chapters will also have him as their Primarch.

Seeing as there were only 20 primarchs, and no new ones, Balder would definitely not be one.

Hellebore

Sarge
03-10-2006, 04:39
I figured that the children wouldn't have the implants, though any genesplicing would most likely be passed down through lines of heredity.

However, I don't totally agree with you on the implants or egineering, perhaps they could have simular implants that respond to estrogene rather than testosterone, after all if you can create 7-foot tall super soldiers, you can do the same for anyone.

As for reproduction, it's easier to just assume that they can reproduce like normal human males.

Kegluneq
03-10-2006, 06:26
However, I don't totally agree with you on the implants or egineering, perhaps they could have simular implants that respond to estrogene rather than testosterone, after all if you can create 7-foot tall super soldiers, you can do the same for anyone.
Only if you suddenly introduced an Empress. Space Marines take pride in the fact their organs (and genes) came directly from the Primarchs, and before that the Emperor. If you just spontaneously find female triggered organs, you couldn't put them in any kind of loyalist chapter.

As for reproduction, it's easier to just assume that they can reproduce like normal human males.
Although that's completely unsupported by the fluff so far...

Sarge
03-10-2006, 06:45
They aren't loyalist in the fashion that they are strict followers of Imperium law, but rather defenders of humanity.

Yes, I don't really care for retaining the tired old theories, this could be due to all my time as a Tau player, but I say if it doesn't work, I say cut it out.

Kegluneq
03-10-2006, 07:00
Tired old theories? The origins of SM organs as I gave them is current fluff. You're giving your female Marines implants that have no parallel or actual source anywhere in the current 40k universe.

Sarge
03-10-2006, 07:05
And your point is?

Kegluneq
03-10-2006, 07:11
That I'd find your army - as you have it - as valid a 40k army as the Hello Kitty! Marines and the Simpsorks, when you could slightly change your fluff and your rules to make a valid, interesting army.

Rotten
03-10-2006, 09:29
Yes, you said that you don't care what others think, but I will take this opportunity to give you my opinion anyway, because I don't believe you. :p


Fluffwise, I think you might have gone a bit over the top with the "it's a huge galaxy so there's bound to be something like this somewhere". You incorporate a bit too much of the established fluff into a homemade story that simply doesn't make sense. I don't know how much of the SM/Imperium fluff you have read but I doubt it can be very much, and if I'm wrong you obviously don't give a damn about the established background. And that's just too sad.

Ruleswise, I have no objections against your army. I'm sure it could work very well. But when it comes to the fluff, well I have already told you that, I don't think it's a very good idea. You have to cut the bonds to the established fluff and make the whole story more realistic, or you're not going to be taken seriously by gamers with a bit more than basic fluff knowledge.

Sarge
03-10-2006, 18:10
Ok, "not caring" is a lil incorrect, but I'm not going to change everything just to fit what SM are supposed to be. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of thinking this up.

Rotten:
I think you're right fluff wise, I think I'll go with the original story I had in mind, but this would require they were created by a mad scientist (most likely Fabian Bile) escaped and are basically a rogue faction (which I don't mind at all). Which should allow them to fight any army without too much trouble story wise.

So a new story that holds truer to my initial thoughts is in order, I'll be back with you before long (hopefully this day). Thanks for the input, but as you can tell I'm really thick headed and can care less what people want me to do with the core of my ideas, but there is space to be worked out on the edges.

Simsandwich
03-10-2006, 18:52
You cant have SoBs and SMs in the same list.
I'd be happy to play this, I dont give a damn about this "OH MY GOD YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE FLUFF LIKE A RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!"
If you convert it well, and are a good opponent, I will have no qualms about facing an army like yours.
At least he isn't doing an AssCanODoom Army.

Voronwe[MQ]
03-10-2006, 19:05
Actually, it's fluff-wise and tactically that this army is most interesting. The fluff opens possibilities; it does not restrict.

Baldemyr
03-10-2006, 19:39
Sarge, if you follow Fabius Bile idea-somehow based off the Emperors Children geneseed who failed as an expirement and went their own way (as good guys) I think you would find folks more receptive. The fluff DOES give you so much leeway. The only problems stem from integrating this into the few solid bits of fact that GW gave us.
Sexual dimorphism aside, Space Marines are always male-and are created along rigid and very calculated lines(except for that dang cursed founding). That doesnt mean that other troops(even female) cant be as tough or tougher. it also doesnt mean that female and male troops cant fight together(germanic cultures didnt tend to like it though although all had tales of female hero's. When women are fighting, you are in a sense giving up your chance at a next generation...something early cultures arent a fan of...Germanic = Norse = Space Wolves). It just means that according to their basic world, you dont have women fighting alongside as brothers to the Adeptus Astartes.

Culturally, you could still go with the Wolf motif(after all, the fictional founder of Rome was raised by a she-wolf) as their background...you could still make them as tough-use the same army list... but when it comes to actually making them marines, with their shared origins on Fenris, you will find great resistance.


Just my thoughts-


Yanno, come to think of it an army based off Fabius Biles messing with Marine geneseed might be awesome. Too often we hear of good guys turning bad..what about the opposite lol?

Kegluneq
03-10-2006, 21:49
The Soul Drinkers? They'd certainly be a good basis for a Fabius Bile-created army - although something borne of Chaos fighting for good seems somewhat more unlikely.

Sarge
03-10-2006, 22:01
Something along those lines, anyway here's what I got so far.


Wolves of Balder ch1

You ask me about the Wolves of Balder, do you? Sure, I'll tell you what I know, just sit down and order me another pint. I'm sure you're aware of the rumors about the Wolves of Balder, that they're demons straight from hell, they're murderous traitor marines who leave none alive to tell tales of the horrors they've seen, but if that was true than why is it that there are so many with tales to tell about these so called traitors? It's because they aren't traitors at all, well not in the sense we know the word; you see they aren't from any Space Marine Chapter, indeed they're not truly Space Marines at all. They may train like them, use the same equipment as them, and even fight like them, but trust me when I say this, they are not Space Marines.

So what are they, you ask? They're the experiment of one Fabius Bile, I'm sure you've heard of him and if you haven't, just know this, he is the sickest most twisted being in existence, next to the Dark Gods themselves, of course. He was once apothecary of the Emperor's Children; little is known of him before Horus' Heresy however, but due to his knowledge on genetic engineering, I wouldn't be surprised if he had once studied under the God-Emperor himself. Anyway, the Wolves of Balder were an attempt to create soldiers as powerful as Space Marines, without the reliance of gene-seed to hold them back. To fulfill this need, Fabius Bile set about his experiment on both men and women, he knew that if they were no longer to be reliant on gene-seed, than they would have to be capable of reproduction. This of course this was proving to be quite impossible for him, and with his subjects all dead he set about claiming more worlds to provide him with the subjects he needed for his experiments. When all prior experiments had proven unsuccessful, he was forced to draw subjects from worlds as far away as Fenris. Among those taken, was one Balder Bloodfang, an initiate of the Space Wolves, but destined for so much more.

After nearly three millenia of failure, Fabius Bile found success in those subjects from the harsh ice world of Fenris, they were strong enough to survive the torturous transformation, but were passive enough to obey his commands, the perfect combination. But even that was only part of the experiment, he'd have to prove they were capable of reproduction, and passing on the genetic alterations to their offspring, if he expected his work to reach fruition. Fabius would have his answer; I care not to think of what perverse pleasure he got from forcing his subjects to mate, but the answer he received no doubt caused him even greater joy. His experiment, that took millenia to accomplish, and cost countless people their lives, bore the fruit that would be known as the Wolves of Balder.

Well the day is fading fast and my pint is all but gone, so unless you're willing to buy me another round and stay the night, I see no point in continuing my tale. Oh I see, so you are fascinated by my story and want to hear more? Very well, order me a round or two and I'll continue with what I know. Well, with his experiment proven, Fabius was about to begin the long process of training and breeding his new legion, when out of nowhere the Space Wolves of the 13th Company attacked his compound. Before any of the defenders knew it, the 13th Company was upon them, and shortly afterward every last mutant and traitor was cut down. Free to storm the complex, they did what they do best, and began moving through each laboratory destroying everything in sight, when all of a sudden they came across Fabius' latest experiment.

The marines of the 13th Company stood ready to kill every last man, woman, and child, when all of a sudden they were given the command to halt by their Commander. He looked into cages and saw the naked bodies of the mutated men and woman, and was about to give the order to resume the cleansing, when his eyes met those of a tall fierce figure, one Balder Bloodfang. Unlike the others, he had moved to the bars of his cage and starred out at his would be executioners without any sign of fear, he just looked at them, and when the Commander entered the laboratory, his eyes locked on him. To this date I do not know what went through the mind of the Commander, but all of a sudden he gave the order to open the cages and round the captives up.

Without a moments hesitation, the marines did just that, they shot the locks off the cages and ordered the captives to exit. Many were frightened, but many more bravely strolled forth, past the armed marines to where the Commander had instructed them to gather, and waited. Many waited for death, while many others hoped that would not be their fate, Balder did not care one way or the other, he just starred right at the Commander and did not blink. The Commander of the 13th Company than addressed his brothers and their captives, and these were his exact words, "Brothers, these people are a gift from the Emperor himself, converts to bolster our ranks, and take up the arms of our long dead brothers, let those who swear fealty to the Emperor right here, board our drop ships with us and leave this hell behind to fight along side us in the battles to come."

There wasn't a soul among them that did not swear fealty on their hands and knees that day, and when they boarded the cramped confines of those drop ships, many of them were praising both the 13th Company, and the God-Emperor himself for their deliverance from damnation. Well I believe that explains what the Wolves of Balder are, perhaps another day I will tell you more about these so called traitor marines.

At the moment I'm debating whether to use the 13th Company rules, or stick with the normal Space Wolves rules. Also, I'm going less for a marine, and more of a marine-esque super soldier. So there might not even be a need to explain implants, and just simply have them as MEQs.

Sarge
05-10-2006, 05:30
So any constructive comments on the new story?

Kegluneq
05-10-2006, 08:50
I have to admit that I like this idea a lot more now - I particularly like the non reliance on geneseed, and the current pariah status of the army as a whole.

If I had to make a suggestion, I'd be happier if their motives were kept a little more ambiguous. They are the product of Chaos after all... I'd also rather they weren't all modelled after space marines, the odd ogryn or imp guard would emphasise their mutant origins...

Sarge
05-10-2006, 16:23
Perhaps, but they're not hideously disfigured like most mutants, the common battle scar can be seen on just about all of them, and their trademark yellow eyes, I'm even debating on using some chaos armor to represent their origins, or the fact they scavenge so much off their enemies.

As for the rules, I think I'll go with the 13th Company rule set, with some changes to their blood fued (in a freindly game) to Emperor's Children and SoB. They're both pretty obvious, but I might as well make a short story for that too lol.

So have you checked out my army list http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51265 I would really like some advice, even if you don't know about Space Wolves you can find the rules for 13th Company on http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacewolves/gaming/13thcompany/default.htm