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Xenageo
28-06-2005, 02:23
Recently I've been fortunate enough to come into the possession of the new WE list, and have discussed it with a fair few people, including some that regularly come top 10 in tournaments they attend, etc. The enviroment I generally game in is quite competitive -- while we are all friendly, and in terms of sportsmanship allow people to go back and do things they have forgotten, et cetera, the lists we generally use are pretty powerful, though not to the point of insanity.

With this in mind, a review of the woodelf units, magic lore and (some) magic items/kindreds follows. It has to be noted that my advice is intended for gamers that play using victory points, capturing standards, table quarters, et cetera, and in some cirumstances if you do not do these things my musings are less useful.


Magic Lore/magic in general:

Not as bad as people will make out. It is painful that woodelf level 2's can no longer take the lore of life/beasts and are now restricted to this, though -- but with this said, it can pull some nice suprises. Imagine making a unit of dryad's cause terror when in close proximity with an O&G army, or pulling off a suprise charge with the call of the hunt. Useful, but there's just no way it can make as many points for you as the lore of life.

In all, magic has definitely been toned down for level 2's (and thus, in 1,500 point tournaments it'll be especially noticeable), but archmage can still take life. It is especially noticeable however, that there are no +1 powerdice items available in any form, nor +1 spell - so relying on an archmage with life could still let you down if you missed out on stone/wood. But yeah, the woodelf magic now just has no way to compete with how it was previously when in a 1.5k tournament you could have 3 level 2's, one with wand of jet absolutely destroying everything.

With this said, mages are definitely still necessary (for Dispel scrolls/dice), as a lot of woodelf units are really vulnerable to magic. This especially applies if you take wardancers or small but insanely pricey units such as waywatchers or wild riders.


Kindreds:

firstly I'd just like to say that since none of these use magic item allowance, if you have "spare" points in essence it is just going to improve a character without eating into points you use on anything else, which is neat. with this said however, I feel that there is only one worthwhile kindred, but it is REALLY REALLY worthwhile.

wardancer: worthless
eternal: worthless
scout: worthless
glamourweave: worthless
waywatcher: worthless.
wild rider: not that bad, but still a lot of points and not something I would really consider taking on a lord myself.
alter: Alter kindred wins -- it seriously is superb. +1a, movement/initiative 9". However, it does have serious drawbacks in that with this kindred you can't be the general and cannot join other units, but combined with magic items this kindred can seriously turn a wood elf lord into a force to be reckoned with. imo it was included to give a lord some ground in the lord vs archmage debate.

If you take a highborn there is no doubt that alter kindred is the way to go. I would argue that if you didn't want to take it, eg, if you wanted the ld 10 on your lord as for your general it'd probably not be worth taking any.


Magic Items:

Nothing terribly special here. Some neat magic items with various specialized uses, though.

Sprit Sword: worthless
Bow of Loren: really nice, especially when combined with, for example, alter kindred and starfire/bodkin arrows.
Hunter's Talon: useless alone, but with hagbane arrows becomes viable. Don't expect to kill combat lords with this, but sniping mages could pay off with some luck.
Spear of Twilight: "ask yourself one question -- do you feel lucky?". I personally would never consider taking this.. but I can see situations in which it could be useful to some people.
Blades of Loec: worthless
Daith's reaper: worthless
Dawnspear: with a wild rider lord, if for some reason you *insisted* on taking a magic weapon this is probably the one to go for. worthless otherwise.
Callach's claw: worthless
Sword of a Thousand Winters: worthless
Rageth's Wildfire Blades: worthless
Asiendi's Bane: worthless

Railarian's Mantle: Insanely overpriced for what it does. Oaken Armour is just nicer.
Oaken Armour: Nice magic armour. Fairly solid, not particularly cheap but not really overpriced either. Works well with annoyance of netlings and great weapon. (and alter kindred, of course)
Helm of the Hunt: Actually rather nice, especially when combined with amaranthine brooch -- but the lack of protection from magic would leave me feeling too vulnerable for me to take this on a lord.
Armour of the Fey: I think this was intended to be combined with the amaranthine brooch - but that still leaves you horribly vulnerable to magic missiles. I would much rather fork out the extra 15 points for oaken armor. All in all, fairly worthless.
Briarwreath: worthless

Xenageo
28-06-2005, 02:24
Amaranthine Brooch: über sweet. Probably going to be a standard in a lot of wood elf lists, especially with combinations such as bow of loren + any magic arrows since with these you cannot afford the oaken armour.
Stone of the Crystal Mere: Expensive. Potentially viable with a lord on a dragon, but lets be honest -- with a lord on a dragon why would you take this when you can take Merclw’s Locus.
Glamourweave: Worthless
The Rhymer's Harp. Expensive. Very expensive when you consider that WE already get "free passage" through woods. I wouldn't ever take it as I would never really play in a style in which it would be viable to use it. However, if your gameplan was something like 20 eternal guard this would increase the units survivability when charged pretty significantly.
Amber Pendant: Really really neat.
The Fimbulwinter Shard: Again an item that is only really viable with for example, a lord on a dragon -- and I would prefer the locus.

Wand of Wych Elm: A lot of points, but neat with an archmage. Can potentially stop your enemy getting any spells off in the entire game.
Diviniation Orb: About as useful as a co*k flavored lollipop.
Ranu's Heartstone: Nice if you have an archmage, otherwise not really worth it.
Deepwood Sphere: Specialized, but could be viable.
Calaingor's Stave: worthless.

Arcane Bodkins: Nice with the bow of loren. Very nice with the bow of loren and alter kindred.
Hagbane Arrows: Nice with the hunter's talon. I would still be more inclined to use bow of loren + starfire/bodkin arrows though.
Starfire Arrows: very very useful with the bow of loren.
Hail of Doom Arrow: This may as well be a compulsary choice.
Dragontooth arrows: I think these are part of a plan instigated by games workshop to weed out the most unintelligent people in the universe. The next step will probably involve executions.
Moonstone of the Hidden Ways: Some luck relied in the placement of a wood near where you would like to be, but could come in useful in some situations. Not a must have, but something that could be viable.
Wraithstone: Not something I myself would really take. A few friends are consistantly telling me it is great but kinda pricy.
Horn of the Asrai: worthless
Elynett's Brooch: Not worthless, but specialized.
Gwyrec's Horn: worthless

Gaermath, The Banner of Midwinter: Really neat if you're taking a unit of eternal guard for an anvil but still want an alter kindred lord.
Faoghir, Banner of Dwindling: Expensive, but could come in useful on a unit of wild riders.
Saemrath, the Banner of Zenith: Insignificant
The Royal Standard of Ariel: Doesn't justify needing a battle standard, let alone the obscene point cost.
Aech, the Banner of Springtide: While essentially an extra turn of shooting for a unit when it is threatened, I think that this banner would encourage you to take units of more than ten, and that, plus providing your opponent with another 100 VP's for capturing a standard makes my final verdict a definite worthless.

A Cluster of Radiants: Pretty cool.
Resplendance of Luminiscents: I can imagine a unit of dryads destroying some spirit hosts with this -- but for general game use it seems fairly insignificant. Too specialized.
A Blight of Terrors: worthless, especially when you have a magic spell that upgrades dryads fear to terror.
A Murder of Spites: Fairly cool on forest spirits. Not good enough compared to annoyance of netlings to make them viable on a lord.
An Annoyance of Netlings: Wicked sick. Godlike. Etc.
Befuddlement of Mischiefs: Worthless
Lamentation of Despairs: Too risky to be viable.
Pageant of Shrikes: Combined with bow of loren and hagbane arrows for the ultimate sniper award.
Muster of Malevolents: Worthless


Army List - Characters
Note: the */10 ratings are based around what you are getting for points, rather than what would actually beat what in combat or whatever.

Highborn - 8/10
Very flexible. Can go on a dragon with merclw's locus/oaken armour/etc and really hurt people. Obviously still vulnerable to cannons/bolt throwers, though. An alternative setup is alter kindred combat based, with annoyance of netlings allowing him to down any savage enemy characters. I think the most popular setup is going to be alter kindred/bow of loren and one of the various magic arrows/some defensive item. Another variance is "the sniper", going for hagbane arrows, hunters talon and a pageant of shrikes. Overall a solid choice, and one whose roll can be specialized depending on what you require/expect from a character. The highborn is going to be expensive, but unlike most other elf lords is actually going to be able to have a significant influence on the tide of the battle.

Spellweaver - 8/10
Level four mage with life magic. Yay. Now the level 2's cannot take this, it really makes you respect how much damage a level 4 can deal out with it. Very expensive, though - and there is a distinct lack of offensive magic items in the woodelf list. I feel that it's pretty even between him and the wood elf lord, since you just can't give the spellweaver enough support in terms of either powerdice, or an extra spell to ensure he ends up with at least either (master of the) wood/stone.

Treeman Ancient - 6/10
A very hard, stubborn, terror causing monster with the ability to take spites and a strangle root attack, along with two treesinging bound spells. However, he is VERY VERY expensive, and gives away a _huge_ chunk of VP's if killed, with 100 for general and spites considered, your opponent could easily look at gaining 500 VP's with a couple of lucky cannon shots. If you're up against someone that has no cannons though, and your lord also has the annoyance of netlings, it could easily become almost impossible to kill him. However, without a 360degree arc of sight he is fairly unwieldy, and it's possible for your opponents to avoid him. I'd also not really chance charging him into a unit alone unless I could get a flank charge off. Stubborn is nice, but not too trust-able without LD 10. But yeah, specialized, and not all that easy to make your points back on.

Noble - 6/10 -- edit: 7/10
After using a couple of these I'd have to say they're definitely much better than I thought. I think the typical alter noble (helm of the hunt, GW, HoDA) will see a lot of use, as will a scouting noble with pageant of shrikes and the hunters talon. Both of these combinations are simple to use, nice, and not too expensive for what they do.

Spellsinger - 7/10
Still pretty nice, though ONLY being able to take spells from the lore of athel loren sucks compared to their previous incarnations -- definitely a step down in terms of power on the battlefield. With that said, the lore of athel loren really isn't *that* bad, and one of these with two dispel scrolls is virtually a compulsary choice anyway due to the fragile nature of important elven units such as wardancers, or the amount of damage a magic missile (from which, they don't get their ward save) can inflict on a unit of dryads. It's again worth noting here the lack of magic-prowess boosting magical items hurts. As a final note, it really is worth restating how much them losing access to the lore of life hurts their offensive abilities, and that woodelf magic has definitely been toned down overall.

Branchwraith - 6/10
If you have a spare hero slot, a branchwraith with almost nothing can add a neat punch to a unit of dryads. Perhaps with a resplendance of luminescents to allow you to deal with ethereal creatures, or an annoyance of netlings to take an opponent otherwise difficult to beat out of the game for a short while. They can also be upgraded to a level one mage, which is definitely useful if you take for example, an archmage and another level 2 - the extra PD/DD can allow you to cast 3 spells on 3 dice while saving another slot for a noble. It's fairly expensive though, and isn't really much better than, for instance, a dryad champion with the exception of being able to take spites and the magic level. I would only ever really take one if I had a level four mage and another level two mage and wanted the extra PD. The extra dispel dice offered by the 25 point sprite they can use is also definitely a plus for taking them.

Xenageo
28-06-2005, 02:25
Army List - Core
Note: the */10 ratings are based around what you are getting for points, rather than what would actually beat what in combat or whatever.

Glade Guard - 8/10 -- edit: 7/10
Having to take glade guard in units of 10 again changes woodelves significantly from their previous incarnation. Now, massed archers can be killed significantly more quickly without just having a lot of units of 5 opponents are trying to chase down. They can move and fire without suffering a -1, which is awesome, and deal out a little more damage than they did previously, as well as being one point cheaper. They are possibly the best archers ingame, and it'll be rare indeed to see a woodelf army without at least a couple of units of them.

I originally considered these really useful, but after play it's become apparent they just die too fast to make many points back. It is still worth taking them, however. They are a "target" for your opponent, and you can guarentee he'll send some units to deal with them, which means you can at least set up a trap or two.

Eternal Guard - 5/10
While the Eternal Guard are a neat unit, they do not really work in a usual woodelf playstyle, and require a lot of support. They are stubborn if joined by a noble or highborn, which means they are not very likely to run, but the price of a full ranked unit of 16-20 is huge, and this size is really required in order for them to be the "anvil" that they were intended to be. It is also a clear target for opponents "breaker" units and gives away a lot of points if run down.

Glade Riders - 6/10 -- edit, 7/10
Glade Riders are now not only more expensive, but have no light armour or shield, leaving them very vulnerable to even usually ineffective shooting or magic. They are also more expensive, and longbows are compulsary. Still, with this said a couple of cavalry units are going to be required in order to hit your opponents flanks to remove rank bonus -- but I would rather they were wild riders, I guess.

The bows are really very very nice. It's lovely to be able to march 18" and still hit on 3's, as well as provide flanking support, and they're not that difficult to keep out of trouble with their manouverability. All in all, I definitely now think they are a viable alternative to glade guard.

Dryads - 10/10
What more could you ask for? For the same price as glade guard, you get a fear causing skirmishing model with an awesome statline. Though they have lost their aspects, they are now incredibly good value for points and can still dish out an incredible amount of hurt. The fact that they are core is just the icing on the cake -- a wonderful unit, and one that is likely to be a mainstay in any succesful wood elf army.

Army List - Special
Note: the */10 ratings are based around what you are getting for points, rather than what would actually beat what in combat or whatever.

Wardancers - 7/10
Wardancers, when charging, can inflict slightly more damage than dryads. They are easier to kill, and have dances that can enhance their performance in various ways. If they get charged however, they are going to die. They just cannot take a charge with any reliability, and are significantly more expensive in terms of points than dryads. It is probably worth taking one unit, even if only for variety and nothing more, but dryads are too similar and too much cheaper to justify more than one.
-- edit

I think the 7/10 score is pretty much spot on still, but it's worth emphasising just how much damage 9 dancers can do on the charge. 27 ws6 s4 attacks is nothing to joke about.

Warhawk Riders - 6/10
These are a nice unit to have available, but again, a *lot* of points for what they can do. They get a terradon-esque hit and run special rule, but are just, well. worse than terradons and not hugely great pointswise. With that said though, they are pretty good at their job, taking out war machines/fast cav/etc.

Wild Riders - 7/10 -- edit, 8/10
Semi-heavy cavalry that're actually much better after careful dissemination. The huge amount of special rules they have all contribute to them ruling, and they're fast cav ontop of all of this, with a free musician, and cause fear when they charge, and if they survive to a second round of combat they're also pretty damn effective there (thanks to more special rules). Overall a very solid addition to the woodelves, and definitely worth paying the points to take over glade riders. Still vulnerable to missile fire, and especially magic missiles, but fairly survivable as well as being able to deal some damage.

Again, after playing some games with these I feel they're more effective than I originially thought. Especially dropping two units to the flank/rear of an enemy ranked unit, then guarenteed breaking it the next turn. They're not as weak to missile fire as I orignially thought, either. 2 5+ saves go quite a long way.

Tree-Kin - 6/10
Tree-Kin are a *lot* of points per model, and function in a similar way to kroxigor in lizardmen lists. They are slightly more survivable, and although they do not hit as hard as the kroxigor are definitely an anvil capable of taking charges and are unlike anything currently in the woodelf list in terms of functionality. I would see these taking charges, soaking up damage then being "saved" by dryads. However, with their inability to really move that fast and hit that hard themselves, they're still not really in keeping with the typical style of a wood elf army and cannot just vanish into a wood or escape the charge arcs of the enemy.


Army List - Rare
Note: the */10 ratings are based around what you are getting for points, rather than what would actually beat what in combat or whatever.

Great Eagle - 7/10
A la high elves. Same advantages, same disadvantanges. Only one per rare choice seems very strange though, I suspect this will be edited in errata. However, even as they are they are not (contrary to public opinion) a particularly bad rare choice in comparison to the other two. They're good at hunting warmachines, two together can cause problems for units such as furies, and they are practically perfect for standard march blocking tactics. Against some armies, however, they just will not be useful (think 40k-lizardmen or a chaos list with a couple of beastherds and some furies), and it is arguable that a cannon simply won't do that much damage to a woodelf army due to lack of good targets. With this said, however, I would prefer two of these to a unit of 3 warhawk riders.

Treeman - 6/10
Too expensive. Pretty much everything I wrote in regards to the Treeman Ancient applies here, only even less leadership makes for more unreliability. The points cost simply does not really mesh with the offensive ability a treeman provides.

Waywatchers - 6/10
Again, too expensive. Hideously so. Sure, they get KB at short range -- but when is this ever really going to be particularly useful? they cannot pick out characters from units, and it's unlikely that an armoured character is going to be wandering outside units anyway. They do, however, have two hand weapons which means that they could actually be "thrown in" to back up another unit charging, but after losing the ability to see through 4" of wood, it is really difficult to justify the huge points expenditure in taking them.


Conclusion

To conclude, the wood elf army will have to change its playing style significantly. It can no longer count on a huge amount of offensive magic via level 2's with the lore of life, nor on enemies being distracted for several turns cleaning up several units of 5 archers. Glade riders role is going to have to be fulfilled by wild riders, who, while still offering a threat and taking ranks are forest spirits, and thus immune to psychology/cannot flee. With dryads aspects removed, and wardancers unbreakable gone, the two skirmishing units can no longer be used as an anvil and substitutes will be required. Tree-kin may be used for this, or even great eagles/glade riders to set up charges via fleeing. Even with this said, though - the wood elf army should primarily be more fun for an opponent to play against. There will be less simply vanishing into trees with mages that slaughter troops throughout the entire game, and destroying ranked units with skrimishers/cav to remove ranks will have to be played more carefully. Honestly, they are less powerful than the previous incarnate of the list was in most aspects, but recieve some really nice new fast cav, and the special rules glade guard gain for their bows is a nice compensation to being forced to take them in a minimum of 10's.

All in all, though, less damage will be inflicted throughout magic/shooting and woodelf players will have to adapt to this and start dealing more in combat - something the new list makes easier with the wild riders, dryads and wardancers. Taking a woodelf highborn over a mage will also make a noticeable difference whether he is used for sniping characters, forcing units to make panic checks or simply thrown into combat against tough characters with an annoyance of netlings/great weapon. It will still be important to maintain a strong magic defense in order to protect your units from the 2d6s4 magic missiles as they will literally destroy half a unit per spell.

malisteen
28-06-2005, 04:35
In general this book will likely be seen as a weakening of the wood elves. I anticipate a return of the "GW hates elves" complaints.

One key wood elf strength in the chronicle's list was the ability to harrass and then fade away, offering up few or no victory points in return. This was based on effective scouts, near untargetable waywatchers, and 5 man archer squads. In the new book archer squads are back up to 10 minimum, scouts lose abilities yet cost 2 extra points each, and waywatchers are massively expensive and much easier to deal with. So that advantage has more or less been removed from the wood elf army. Of course, this may be a good thing. For all that it made Wood Elves comperable to other non-elven armies in power, it also made them hugely annoying to play against.

Further hindering wood elf abilities in this regard is a reduction in the availability of eagles, an increase in the cost of warhawks, and a severe reduction in the armor save of glade riders (with a points boost to boot). Add on the fact that most of our combat units (dryads, treekin, treeman, wardancers, wild riders) are immune to psychology, and I don't think people will be complaining about wood elves running away much in the future.

Nearly every unit in the wood elf army got hit with the loss of important abilities or an increase in points cost disproportionate to their increase in ability, or they took a hit in some other area, such as eagles moving from 2 for 1 specials to 1 for 1 rares. You'll probably still see an eagle or two, though, as the other wood elf rares are looking like some pretty crippling points sinks.

Wood Elf mages now cost as much as other elven mages, even though their spell selection is more limited and they don't get a bonus to cast or dispel (a far more important advantage for a wizard then a long bow). They'll still be an important part of any wood elf army, if only because the wood elf army is so weak against magic that they need every dispel die they can get.


There are exceptions to the wave of nerfing, though, and chief among them are dryads. Yes they lost significant abilities, but their full shift to core (as opposed to the half hearted scout shift), combined with a hefty points drop, makes them a very attractive foundation for an army. I very much doubt we'll be seeing many wood elf armies without at least two units of them.

Another winner is the wood elf fighty characters. Their new selection of magical and mundane items, along with the alter kindred, makes WE nobles and highborn worthy of a bit more respect.

I'll go out on a limb here and say wardancers are also winners, or at least don't lose much overall value. Their roll isn't the same. They can't break ranks or take charges, but their own charge will be pretty deadly.



I'm still holding opinions on our new units. Wild riders sound fairly schitzoid to me, being fast cavalry, but unable to flee; cause fear on the charge but extra attacks on the turn you aren't charging. The only time all their abilities all stack is when you're shelling out the points to put them in the list. But still, they're fast, and they could be decent, so I'll have to see them in battle before I write them off entirely.

The glade... er... winter... er... eternal guard look like they have some potential. Expensive as billy-oh, but stubborn Ld9 when accompanied by one of our now respectable combat characters, and there's that nice 'unbreakable for a turn' banner to give them. But they're probably too expensive to really serve their roll. Again, I'll have to see them in action.


The main thing I'm seeing is that the wood elves are looking more vulnerable and more expensive then ever. We're probably looking at a net loss of a whole unit per 2k army, not to mention a good bit of maneuverability, and that is bad news in the face of the many weaknesses of the Wood Elves.

But it's too early to despair, and even if the rules are somewhat handicapped, that's no reason to throw in the towel. We'll win anyway. Games with the chronicles list have been getting too easy anyway.

EvilIncarnate
28-06-2005, 07:08
Thanks for the info but I have a question.

When you upgrade a lord with Kindred thing does it do anthing to the army you can have, making some things core for example?

malisteen
28-06-2005, 08:42
No. Eternal guard are core with a highborn, regardless of kindred, and nothing else in the army shifts slots based on your character.

Mostly the kindreds are there to add a little flavor at the expense of actual in game ability, with the exception of alter kindred.

gorenut
28-06-2005, 08:42
Awesome. Thanks for long review. Can't wait to see everything myself and how they compare to Dark Elves.

Tancred II von Quenelles
28-06-2005, 08:57
In general I agree. To sum up - WE army has only 1 useful elf unit - dancers. Others are worthless. Wild riders are FS - not elwes. An army, which has 11 units and only 4 useful looks not an interesting one. I mean, you can take GR. GG, EG, Eagle or other useless units for fun, but if you want to win - dryads, dancers, Wilriders and Treemen are the choise of a tournament players. It means that all we armies are going to look the same on the tourneys, ignring the main part of existing units. Sad about it, but the new WE are a really dull and not strong army :eyebrows:

Xenageo
28-06-2005, 11:46
malisteen - I'd read it as with the highborn as general (and thus, the alter kindred would stop this as the highborn can't be the general). my bad, though.
Tancred - Treemen just aren't good enough for their points cost. I seriously suspect in most tournaments if players take rare choices at all they will be 5 waywatchers and a great eagle, or two great eagles.
malisteen again - *some* fast cav is going to be required in the wood elf list, and I'd say the wild riders are more likely to be used than glade riders -- though maybe one unit or so of glade riders would be useful for fleeing with, but wild riders are just much more survivable and really neat on the charge/even in the second round of combat. Obviously not worth going for frontal assaults with, but taking flanks should be no problem with such a high movement and fast cav.

And, I would say they *are* a potentially very strong army, but only if you're pretty much taking glade guard (in tens, not scouts), dryads, wardancers, wild riders and maybe a unit of five scouts or waywatchers for marchblocking.

therisnosaurus
28-06-2005, 12:34
lol, watch me build an all elf army and kick **** with it then ;). I really do hate people who go on about how shoddy things have gotten just because this happened or that got nerfed. glade riders are now far more effective than they were, backed up by dryads they can now cancel ranks AND have a cheap, tough and angry core unit to beat up and get the casualties and outnumbering bonus on the enemy. similarly, gladeguard now have slightly more immoveable treemen and treekin to guard them while they send firepower out. waywatchers, now with the option of being accompanied by a greatweapon toting noble, and the two hand weapons, can deal a nice bit of carnage against any enemy missile unit, warmachine or fast cav unit that strays within 10", and units of 5 or more can seriously tip the combat in your favour if they go in the back of an enemy unit. combine this with some seriously nasty item combos and elves are just as nasty, if not more so than their floral companions. my army is going to look something like this

Lords: spellsinger

heroes:
spellweaver
noble (alter)
noble (probably scout or waywatcher)

core:
archers, maybe 1-2 units of glade riders. Maybe.

special:
warhawks
wardancers
wild riders (fluffwise my army is based in cathay, and these will have re-routing that makes them less forest spirity)

rare:
waywatchers.


with effective march blocking and snipering from turn one, and decent offensive magic, this army should be able to make a good account of itself, at tournaments or no. with the hawk's talon to take out mages and ratling guns which can cause ridiculous damage to my poor little t3 unarmored elves, warhawks to pick off warmachines, and a good amount of archers (say 50-70) advancing, retreating, flanking and most importantly, dropping a ridiculous amount of fire into just one unit a turn, even the most beefy of units should soon be panicking and fleeing for their lives.


of course, I'll be doing a forest spirit army too, but that's a moot point, and I'm probably going to use nurgle daemon rules for it anyhow.

PARTYCHICORITA
28-06-2005, 13:01
I really wanna know how expensive treekin are? are they more expensive than the kroxigors? than the yethees? than the man eaters?
Also thanks for the review but the magical item part would have been nice with a tiny idea of what the item does instead of just the word "worthless".
That part of the review for that reason is only good to know how many magic items the WE are gettting.

Arthion
28-06-2005, 13:29
You get a good description of the different items and units in the Battleglade Forum by Lestat. Go have a look as long as it is up :)

Units (http://p096.ezboard.com/fbattlegladeforumfrm1.showMessage?topicID=6044.top ic)

characters and magical items (http://p096.ezboard.com/fbattlegladeforumfrm1.showMessage?topicID=6044.top ic&index=5)

sprites, kindreds, lore and conclusion (http://p096.ezboard.com/fbattlegladeforumfrm1.showMessage?topicID=6044.top ic&index=7)

hope this helps

Xenageo
28-06-2005, 13:46
Partychicorita: It wasn't really intended to be a compehensive description of everything, just opinions. I didn't really want to breach any GW copyrights, etc.

therisnosaurus: I didn't want to indicate WE are a bad army, although they are significantly worse than their previous incarnation, they are more balanced and their playstyle will have to change. I don't have any idea why you would take an all elf army without dryads though. Also, how can you say glade riders are far more effective when they lose 2 armour save and are more expensive?

But yeah, I don't mean to insult or say the army is bad -- I could write something along a similar line to this for each army GW produce, and like the others, WE has good and bad units.

Scactha
28-06-2005, 14:57
All these opinions are pretty worthless as there hasn´t been much play with the list yet and absolutely no tournament play.

A Lord on eagle w Hawks Talon and Pageant of shrieks has a decent shot of killing your typical T3 2w mage turn one. Add Warhawks and an Alter kin and we have a magehunter army.

Or a WW hero w a Blight of Terror and Wraithstone. You may very possible have to take a Terrortest with half your army at -1 Ld at the start of turn 1. Then another elf starts causing panictests with his Starfire arrows. Add some normal GG and we have a psycho(logy) army.

Or just buy hordes of 8 woman Dryad teams for 96 points each. For 50% more than the old 5 man Archer teams you get amazing killpower, avoidance and ItP. Ten of these and you haven´t spent half your points. Yet every dishes out 16 St4 swings on the charge, causes Fear and couldn´t care less if half the army died or wherever the opposition legally is dead. A skirmish horde army.

There´s a ton of viable combos just at a glance.

PARTYCHICORITA
28-06-2005, 15:40
i still would like to know to which ogre size model i could compare the treekin cost. thanx

Arthion
28-06-2005, 16:59
Read the text in the links I posted. There they are compared to Ushabti.

blood angel
28-06-2005, 17:09
I read the book over last night. It is a pretty good list.

You will be able to have a scouting lord that can start almost right next to the enemy and can cause terror.

There is a lot of defensiveness built into the list, probably making up for the lack of armor on anyone.

Il Magno
28-06-2005, 18:00
Well first of all many congratulations for the site new look. It is very nice for me.
Second point, this is my 5 cents to the discussion: in general I think that by a "mathematical analysis" the evaluation is more than correct, still I had some matches with the list and I have to say that the killing blow (WD and WW) plus some nasty combo impressed me a lot. archers performed quite good, and I find usefull the tree-kins.
Last but not least the heroes with double handed weapons are very usefull.
My list was based on:
High born armed with the bow of loren the magic arrows that negate armour
Alter hero with Hochland bow and DH weapon
Mage with dipel scrolls
Mage as above

dryads
2 archers unit

wardancers
tree kin
wild raiders

2 way watchers small units
I suggest to you to try this mix (if you like it ;) )

CIAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Zeb
28-06-2005, 18:34
Well, I'm going to feild my Native American army (or Indians as they call it in my gaming group). Mostly cav and two small waywatcher units.

The only problem is I haven't seen any mounted mages yet.

I have played a few games with the list and it seems to do fine, espesially since you can only redirect a charge once...

PARTYCHICORITA
28-06-2005, 18:35
i thought waywatchers were now 0-1

Galonthar
28-06-2005, 18:45
i thought waywatchers were now 0-1
I doubt there will be many players who will field a lot of units of em (allthough I was thinking on it.... I even wanted to go so far, to make an ranger-like army,.. so that means a lot of scouts, archers and also waywatchers.. :P)

malisteen
28-06-2005, 19:30
After listening to the wisdom of the elders, I am starting to have more appreciation for the new fast cav choices. Glade riders don't compare to old spear armed glade riders favorably, but they don't lose much compared to the old bow armed riders. Less armor, but get a spear; not armor piercing, but no move penalty; and a point or two less iirc (not sure, don't have chronicals in front of me).

Wild Riders also compare favorably to our old spear armed glade riders, having one less save, but that save is invulnerable, more weapon skill, more leadership, more strength, and fear on the charge for only a few more points. I don't consider the +1 attack when not charging to be a meaningful bonus, but if you ignore that they still look better then the old spear riders, even with the reduced flexibility from immupsyk and a move to special.

So I'd go so far as to give the following preliminary ratings:

Fighty Lord/Hero: ok to good
Magey Lord/Hero: subpar, raised to ok because the army needs them
Treeman Lord: subpar (not good enough for his points & slots)
Dryad Hero: ok, maybe even good

Archers: ok, in one or two units
Scouts: subpar, not worth the points
Glade riders: ok to good
Dryads: good to great

Eternal Guard: ok (stubborn ld9 could be worth its weight in gold for wood elves)
Wardancers: good to great
Wild Riders: good
Warhawk Riders: subpar
Treekin: jury's out. I just don't know what to think of them yet.

Treeman: subpar (overpriced)
Waywatchers: subpar (overpriced)
Great Eagles: ok, maybe even good if you consider the other rare options


So I'd say the majority of the list is at least playable, and there are several units that look to be quite good. Yes, it's a step down from the chronicals list, but I don't think it's as bad as some (including myself) have said.


Oh, and I might have been a little wrong about the eternal guard- I think the highborn has to be the general, so he couldn't be of a kindred that prevented that, like alter. but he doesn't specifically have to be of the eternal guard kindred

Akuma
28-06-2005, 19:59
I have one WERY STUPID :D question - is there something in rulebook ore some errata that you ALWAYS HIT on 6 ( yes i know that you always fail characteristic test on 6 - but is there something about always regardless of situation hittingo on natural 6 ??? )

IF not annnoyance of nettlings and Fimbulwinter Shrad :D - well you would be unhitable in challange :D - nobody posted this earlier so nobody has thought of that OR ( more probabble ) there is some not in red book that you always hit on natural 6 :D

Xenageo
28-06-2005, 22:28
Malisteen - oki on the highborn. I figured you were right, but I guess I was myself at first. No worries, though. And, I pretty much agree with your analysis (as it ties in nicely with mine). I'd like to emphasis just how good wild riders are though. 5+ armour save, then a 5+ demonic ward, and if the attacks are magical a 6+ standard ward. Definitely much more survivable than old glade riders, and can deal a *lot* more damage on the charge, and even in round 2 of combat. The only real problem is the immune to psychology and having nothing to flee with.

Akuma - I'm pretty sure the annoyance means the opponent always hit you on a 6, and thus can't be combined with the fimbulwinter shard in this way.

Akuma
28-06-2005, 22:44
-1 to hit is just droping what you rolled on a dice by -1 so you roll 6 then do -1 and have 5 OR is there something written about hitting on natural 6 ;)

PARTYCHICORITA
29-06-2005, 00:47
i just notice; the woodies seem to be the only army withouth an item that grands the a 5+ speacial save, not a big deal but weird for 20-40pts

Vanwatalath
29-06-2005, 08:08
i just notice; the woodies seem to be the only army withouth an item that grands the a 5+ speacial save, not a big deal but weird for 20-40pts

Chaos dont either

Maese Crochets
30-06-2005, 23:09
I think Eternal guard could be useful with a character who owned the Amber Pendant and maybe a Great Weapon, so as to challenge rival's heroes and sum a couple of wounds to the combat result. An Annoyance of Netlings would be very interesting as well.
Actually, Eternal guard is very likely to High Elf warriors: 5+ armour save and three ranks attacking (sth similar, isn't it?). They cost one more point and have more WS,I and Ld, and could be stubborn. Does anybody complain about HE lancers? ;)
In my opinion, Wild Riders are quite useful, and more if you include a hero with them. But in fact I haven't played with them yet...
Up the Irons!

Xenageo
30-06-2005, 23:58
er, people complain about HE infantry all the time -- likening them to WE infantry just means they suck as much, really. The difference is that WE infantry get even less attacks back if they suffer a couple of kills.

twisted_mentat
01-07-2005, 00:25
I think the fact that with a Bow of Lorien you can combine any of the Magic Arrows...

hrm....i forgot if that includes the One Use Arrows..
"okay, i'm shooting twice with hail of Doom Arrows....thasts 6d6 hits on you're swordsmen..."

"oh Bugger...."

adreal
01-07-2005, 05:53
hey can you say take an antler kindred lord and still have the eternal guard moved to core?

Leceaus
01-07-2005, 10:44
"okay, i'm shooting twice with hail of Doom Arrows....thasts 6d6 hits on you're swordsmen..."

Nay! That would be shooting five times! (lord + altered)
Meaning.. 15d6 arrows. Not bad :D

Nazguire
01-07-2005, 10:56
Nay! That would be shooting five times! (lord + altered)
Meaning.. 15d6 arrows. Not bad :D


All I can say is yucky-poos


Me thinks that the Wood Elves are going to be the Uber-shooting army...oh wait that was a dumb statement :p

However, what are the opinions in general about da magical items of Uber shooty goodness?

malisteen
01-07-2005, 17:03
Bow of loren can be combined with magical arrows. Hail of doom, however, cannot combine with magical bows (they become normal bows for that one shot, which you only get once per game).

Still, 5 armor ignoring shots sounds pretty tough.

Avian
01-07-2005, 17:26
I think Eternal guard could be useful with a character who owned the Amber Pendant and maybe a Great Weapon, so as to challenge rival's heroes and sum a couple of wounds to the combat result. An Annoyance of Netlings would be very interesting as well.
I think the solution to the annoyance problem is to hit the EG with a reasonably hard-hitting unit containing nothing the character can challenge. I don't immediately remember what the AP does, but if you fill your magic item quota with stuff that only works in challenges you're not getting much of an armour save. :)

Nazguire
02-07-2005, 00:27
I think the solution to the annoyance problem is to hit the EG with a reasonably hard-hitting unit containing nothing the character can challenge. I don't immediately remember what the AP does, but if you fill your magic item quota with stuff that only works in challenges you're not getting much of an armour save. :)


Like the Wood Elves get much of an armour save to start off with lol so all's well end's well. :D

Jericho
02-07-2005, 03:17
Amber Pendant is the one where models in BTB always strike last, regardless of rules that say they go first or anything like that.

Anyway I can't stress enough how great Forest Spirits are when you take a closer look. Dryads, Treekin, Wild Riders and Treemen all have magical attacks (shooting or combat), immune to psychology, 5+ ward against mundane attacks, and all cause fear or terror. Wow.

Treekin and Treemen get scaly skin and that ward save, which is pretty cool. Most Ogre-ish stuff has light armor or an expensive heavy armor option. Same for anything Giant sized. Getting a 5+ against cannonballs and bolt throwers is a luxury most armies won't have. Wild Riders have that backup 6+ ward against magical attacks too, which isn't bad as insurance. Can't rely on it much, but like Bretonnians it can be a pain in the ass when it works.

Maese Crochets
02-07-2005, 11:14
One question: which are exactly the special putting rules for waywatchers? Don't answer me "like chameleon skinks", please: I have no idea.
Thank you very much

Arthion
02-07-2005, 11:39
Either you put them exactly like scouts hidden somewhere on the battlefield, no range required between them and enemy's units, or in open view not nearer then 12" (30cm) to those units.

Hope this helps, and next time just look at a lizardman AB :)

anarchistica
02-07-2005, 17:31
Love the review, i doubt you'll be far off.


All these opinions are pretty worthless as there hasn´t been much play with the list yet and absolutely no tournament play.
Erm no, some things are so obvious you can see them right away. Couldn't you tell Pegasus Cavalry were incredibly powerful just by reading their rules? When i read the rules for The Hellcannon it was obvious to me it's worthless. Alot can be said about a list just going by experience.


Chaos dont either
Except for Crown of Horns. :p

Max_Killfactor
02-07-2005, 23:42
I think eternal guard are worth 12 points. Stubborn is a damn handy rule to have, especially for an army like wood elves, who can usually out-flank most opponents.

However, if all you care about is alter kindred, then EG wouldn't be that great. They need the stubborn in order to be worth it.

The list is a lot different from the chronicles list and I think it will take players time to adjust. I'm pretty happy with the way things turned out, I think the list has a lot of potential.

Jericho
03-07-2005, 08:40
So much potential that it physically hurts trying to cram it all into one army at the same time :)

If I have one criticism, it's that they made too many good options, making it almost impossible to decide what direction to take the army in. And that's probably a good thing in the end :D

adreal
03-07-2005, 09:00
doesn't a nobel also grant stubborness in the eternal guard? that way WE can get the best of both worlds (ie eternal guard stubborn and alter)

Il Magno
03-07-2005, 09:23
be careful, the noble shall be put inside the EG unit, while the Alter noble can not be the army general and can not join any units.......... :cries:

Scactha
03-07-2005, 10:49
Erm no, some things are so obvious you can see them right away. Couldn't you tell Pegasus Cavalry were incredibly powerful just by reading their rules? When i read the rules for The Hellcannon it was obvious to me it's worthless. Alot can be said about a list just going by experience.

Obviously you weren´t around when OK was released. ;)* The debate always reach apex just before release with all these doomsday scenarios supporting one way or another. What never changes is authors professing better understanding of the current issues than anyone else.


*I know you were. Just a friendly nudge.

Avian
03-07-2005, 15:12
doesn't a nobel also grant stubborness in the eternal guard? that way WE can get the best of both worlds (ie eternal guard stubborn and alter)
Yeah, but a Noble is a lot easier to kill off, not least because his magic item quota is 50 pts instead of 100 (and he only has 2 wounds).

paulsk
04-07-2005, 20:02
I'm not sure I like what I'm hearing about my WEs. It seems like I must re-think all of my old Chronicles-era tricks. My real worry is cavalry. What are the new WE supposed to do to stop units of Imperial Knights and other heavy cav? In chronicles the answer was to use unbreakable Wardancers to 'stick' the cav unit, and then counter-attack it with overwhelming force.

But there is no reliable stick unit now. LD 8 stubborn Treeman are not reliable enough. Neither are Eternal Guard who can lose stubborn if the fragile character in their unit dies. I'm trying to brainstorm a solution, and come up with a strategy to accept a heavy cavalry charge and hold it up on its turn in order to counter-charge the next turn.

Can you take scouts in units of 5? That would allow small skirmish screen units at 85 points each. My though is that you could take a unit of treekin, and place two layers of scouts in front of them. Charging the treekin requires peeling away two layers of scouts. By relying on the rule that you can only re-direct a charge once, this would create a treekin unit that could not be charged from the front in a single turn. Any other weapons to help slow down the heavy cav?

Also, while Glade Riders pale in comparison to Wild Riders, they still might not be a rip-off points wise. They cost the same as Dark Riders with RXBs, right? They lose the light armor, but marching and shooting a bow on a 3+ at a close target is just as good as marching a Dark Rider and double-shooting an RXB at 5+.

(trying to look on the bright side and and convince myself to stick with WEs)

Akuma
04-07-2005, 23:14
Scauts can be takken like that but cost massive amount of points 85 :/

Overall - the strenght or the weekness of the new army will unvail in future with the 7ed redesigning army books. Now thay are week - definitly not a tournament winning army ( by the votes and oppinions of Tournament players that always get to top 10 in my country ) , but maybe thats the way that WFB will go ??? More units - less powerfull Heroes and random magic ??? Maybe thay something about Dragons - nerf skaven ( make it less open to abuse ) and so on , then armys like ogres and we will be fully competative IN TOURNAMENT FORMAT - pleese get this straight - I'm not saying that their not competative now but non the less - they are somwhat weeker than "overpowered" armys like Chaos , VC , Skav ( and the whole list ;) ) - Acctualy thay are one of less competative armys with the new rules and i dont see them wining many tournaments

just my 2$ :)

General Failure
05-07-2005, 01:29
I'm not sure I like what I'm hearing about my WEs. It seems like I must re-think all of my old Chronicles-era tricks. My real worry is cavalry. What are the new WE supposed to do to stop units of Imperial Knights and other heavy cav? In chronicles the answer was to use unbreakable Wardancers to 'stick' the cav unit, and then counter-attack it with overwhelming force.

But there is no reliable stick unit now. LD 8 stubborn Treeman are not reliable enough. Neither are Eternal Guard who can lose stubborn if the fragile character in their unit dies. I'm trying to brainstorm a solution, and come up with a strategy to accept a heavy cavalry charge and hold it up on its turn in order to counter-charge the next turn.

First of all , Eternal Guard are not stubborn theirselves? i think so ... If the commandant joins the unit and dies, they are not stubborn anymore?

Well anyhow , the previous dance of being unbreackable or the dryads aspect of hitting em on 6's where far 2 good. IMHO i thhink they have decent anvil units with great steaying power to absorv great damage or hold a turn a cavalry , better than their former cousins high and dark elves ... U say the Treeman is not reliable? it has a dragon like statline coupled with a veryhigh AS and a 5+ ward save ... and as u say is stubborn in top of that, he can absorv the charge of many cavalry units of the game but grail knights and some other nasty of the game, and hold em for a turn at least ... and countercharge with wardancers with deathblow dance for example , treekin with 3 wounds of R5 and ward save aswell are able to stop the charge of minor heavy cavalries i think , and in top of that u have argubeable the best elven stubborn unit of the game ( I hope im not breaking the rules ofthe forum giving this details, but i readed em in some rumour post so i think is ok)

I see the new WE like what dark elves always wanted to be ( i hope not many flames for saying this :) elite troops guerrilla like , with high movement and shock trops that can strike with very strenght quickly anywhere in the field ... that where the introducion and essence of the dark elves army book. Thtas my impresion form the look of the roumoured units now, we cannot now until we see how they act as a whole in real battle

Jeru
05-07-2005, 01:56
just got back from local GW store and read through the bool. I very much like this army, and they have a ton of great choices. Which makes me like it more as you won't bee seeing cookie cutter armies.

Their Special Chars are pretty bad ass too ^^.
the two sisters special rules are $$$

malisteen
05-07-2005, 02:37
Eternal guard are not stubborn themselves, only when there is a character in the unit.

That said, wood elf characters are not fragile. Not anymore. WE have a plethora of protective items, from armor that grants regenerate to a 3+ ward, to a sprite that makes them only hit on a 6 in a challenge, to an item that makes all enemy in base with them always strike dead last in combat, the latter of which alone should be enough to protect a noble (or, better yet, battle standard bearer) within a unit of Eternals, resulting in a very reliable stick unit.

Against soft units wardancers can take a charge with their 'strike first' danse, and Treekin can successfully take charges from anything but the most powerful of heavy cavalry units. A treeman is also fairly reliable for charge taking, doubly so with a battle standard bearer nearby.

On the other hand, you could forget about taking charges and just rely on superior speed and maneuverability to set up dual charges. Glade riders and wild riders, both M9 with free reform, can easily out-maneuver most enemies and pull of frightening combi-charges. Wild riders on their own can often take out softer targets.

Or you coul rely on the abilities of warhawk, glade rider, and eagle units to alternatively march block and flee from enemies, drawing them out of position for charges from dancers and dryads.


But if you simply must have a stick unit to get the job done, then either treekin or eternal guard should work fine for you. Just take a second look at the available items to protect your hero.

proximity
05-07-2005, 03:10
After spending 2 hours reading through the GW regional managers copy of the book (only one in the country here so far to my knowledge :P!) - the biggest thing i noticed is there are so many viable choices that cookie cutter WE's should become a thing of the past. There are lots of really great units, and not enough points to take them all without leaving other areas weak.
It becomes an interesting choice in peoples mind, forcing them to choose between funky unit X or funky unit Y, but not being able to have both, if this kinda variety and versatility amongst armies is where GW is taking WFB in the future, tournies just got a hell of alot more interesting.
I know for the army im designing, I really want wild riders, which means either having them instead of the treeman I had planned, or having them instead of the 2 scroll caddies I had planned (which leaves my magic defence wide open)...

Sagatarius
05-07-2005, 08:08
Hi proximity,
can you tell me what the costs are to upgrade the normal Glade Guard to Scouts? In our german forum we still not sure if it's 5 points per model or 5 points per unit you want to upgrade.

Jericho
05-07-2005, 08:22
That's pretty much exactly my impression of the book as well. Tons of viable options, but set up such that you have to make some seriously tough decisions.

Bow of Loren is great, but needs a Lord level character to stack with magic arrows. But taking a Highborn means no Spellweaver with the staff of re-roll all dispel dice, and also no option of taking a different lore. And among all that, you are trying to find room for some good Spites that do count towards the magic points limit. Crazy. Oh, and then there's the prospect of Kindreds making it even more interesting :D

So my head was spinning even before I finished reading the Lords/Heroes section! The Forest Spirit options are very cool as well.

In the end I think my Wood Elves will face the same problem as all my other armies... what to do about really heavy cav? My Dogs of War don't have much to deal with them (seriously, a wall of pikes is much stronger psychological weapon than literal weapon against 2+ or (Dare I say it?) 1+ knights) and neither do the Khemri that never really got off the ground for me.

I guess there's always Arcane Bodkins + the Bow of Loren... bunch of S3 no armor save shots every turn. But that's a Lord level character with more than half his magic quota full of wargear that does jack squat in combat when there's some nasty (and quite necessary) combat builds available... see what I mean about tough decisions?

Sagatarius
05-07-2005, 08:29
Yeah, if you want some character for close combat you will loose the magic. It will be a hard decision which units to take and not to take.
So i think the armys will much more interesting as before because there are so many options.

proximity
05-07-2005, 10:19
Hi proximity,
can you tell me what the costs are to upgrade the normal Glade Guard to Scouts? In our german forum we still not sure if it's 5 points per model or 5 points per unit you want to upgrade.

im going off memory, but im almost positive its per model, NOT per unit. It really didnt seem worth it to me and as such have left them out of the army list ill most likly be drawing up.

Sagatarius
05-07-2005, 10:23
per model will be realy wothless. in our forum a guy how read the armybook said it were per unit....i think we have to wait until it's released. then we know the truth

Galonthar
05-07-2005, 10:29
and lets hope that truth turn out well; in the woodies favour that means :)

proximity
05-07-2005, 10:41
per model will be realy wothless. in our forum a guy how read the armybook said it were per unit....i think we have to wait until it's released. then we know the truth
yeah like i said, im going off the top of my head.

Sagatarius
05-07-2005, 10:45
It's so starnge. There were a lot of people who said they have seen the bbok or they do have a copy of it but there are still rumours going around and everybody telling somethink different.
Maybe GW released some faked armybooks to confuse everybody. ;)

Akuma
05-07-2005, 13:41
scaut costs !@ + % points making it !& in total for each one - units 5 - 10

Jester
05-07-2005, 13:52
@vs. Heavy Cavalary: keep in mind that the Wood Elves are still one of the most mobil armies in the field - if not *the* most mobil army. So the tactic would be: block them with woods, evade them, lure them into traps, fall into their flanks with warhawk riders or even waywatchers and generaly keep them from getting their points back.

The Woodies are still no army to play the opponent's game with.

cheers, Jes

Sagatarius
05-07-2005, 13:56
17 points for an scout is a lot of points. Do you think they are worth theire points?

Tancred II von Quenelles
05-07-2005, 14:08
17 points for an scout is a lot of points. Do you think they are worth theire points?

The voices have told me, 5 scouts of 17 pts loose S4 at shortrange ability and you must buy a unit of 10 useless archers to be able to get a unit of scouts. The voices consider hobody uses scouts in tournaments, as they are not worth of their points and useless as their GG brothers. Though minies are good.

Max_Killfactor
05-07-2005, 23:18
I know you can't give exact point values, but how about how many points is Orion, and power-wise what characters is he equal to?

My guess is 500-600 points and about equal to the king of bretonnia in fighting power. Am I right?

paulsk
05-07-2005, 23:38
17 points for an scout is a lot of points. Do you think they are worth theire points?

No, I would only consider them for this oddball charge redirecting scheme. I wish I understood what GW thinks sometimes. Of any army in the game, Wood Elves have the *least* need to buy scouts. The army is already loaded with skirmishers, with archers in general, and waywatchers as a superior choice in terms of march blocking (because they can sometimes deploy within 8" of units before the game begins). I can see why some other armies *might* be desperate enough to pay 17 points for a scout, skirmish, archer unit, but I cannot fathom why a Wood Elf would pay so much when there are so many cheaper/better units that do the same thing.

The scouts do have a slight premium value over Glade Guard because they can fire many shots with a narrower frontage than a ranked unit, and they can make better use of the lack of move+shoot penalty, but this is counter-balanced by losing +1 str at short range, so they should really only cost slightly more than Glade Guard, especially in an army where they are in such low demand.

Voss
06-07-2005, 05:40
Not to mention that elven archers are overpriced to begin with. Losing the movement penalty and gain S4 might overcome that to some extent, but I can never get over the idea that shooting in WHF requires quantity, and empire handgunners still rule the shooting phase, with a low cost, good strength & good armor modifier.

Sagatarius
06-07-2005, 06:36
It's a lot of points but i will try to play with them. I think the option to use Scouts, which can move and shot without penalty and no movement-penalty for woods could be usefull. At least one unit.

Voss
06-07-2005, 07:22
But normal glade guadians without the scout upgrade can move & shoot without penalty and treat woods as open ground as well. all wood elves do, as I understand it.

The only benefits you're getting is the scout deployment, skirimishing formation (-1 against enemy shooting), and not having to be in a 10 elf line to get everyone shooting. And you're losing S4 at short range to boot. (And someone really needs to explain that to me. You aren't standing shoulder to shoulder, so the bows have less pull?) Is that really worth paying almost 150% of the cost?

Empire huntsmen, by way of comparison, get longbows instead of bows, and scouts & skirmishers for an increase of only 25%.
For roughly the same cost, you can get 10 huntsmen or 6 elf scouts. Same strength, same range.
Firing on the move, the 10 huntsmen get 3.333 hits. (Need 5+)
Firing on the move, the 6 elf scouts get 4 hits. (Need 3+)

Huh. Interesting. They can compare to other scout units.

But do they stack up against normal glade guardians.
is the scouting and skirmishing worth only getting ~2/3rds of the bows, losing the potential to form into ranks, and S4 at short range? I suspect not, since you'll be getting more hits and causing more wounds, and lowering armor saves.

But rasta-fraggle it all, I'd completely convinced myself that I wasn't getting into the woodies, no matter how cool the new models are. That the army just didn't suit me. Now I have to argue it out all over again.
Bugger.

Sagatarius
06-07-2005, 07:32
Maybe theBows are different?! Some rumours say that the normal Glade Guard have "Guardian Bows" with 24" range and these bows have S4 on short range. So maybe the Scouts have other bows with 30" range.....just a guess.

Zeb
06-07-2005, 07:33
They have different bows, that's why you lose S4.

Sagatarius
06-07-2005, 07:35
Zeb, do you if the bows have different ranges? I just heard that rumour in other forums.

Galonthar
06-07-2005, 07:49
Maybe theBows are different?! Some rumours say that the normal Glade Guard have "Guardian Bows" with 24" range and these bows have S4 on short range. So maybe the Scouts have other bows with 30" range.....just a guess.

I knew GW has made some mad decisions about the new WE rules but

:wtf: :wtf: CHANING THE RANGE :wtf: :wtf:

they can`tr be serious!!!!..... I was hoping the 6th ed. would make it cooler to play a sort of ranger like army (or at least make it more effective against haevy armoured units) but what they`re doing now is just the bloody opposite!!:

-scouts: worthless because of their points (and in my eyes they were the most woodelfy sort unit (rule-wise), what would mean their point cost should be reduced! (think skink way: hardly any points, impossible powerfull skirmishers (CORE)))

- glade guard: maybe a little usefull,.... to storm forward with, unleash some arrow-based death,.. be charged, and die

- dryads: the (only?) good thing that has happened the new WE (and I prefer archery hosts,.. with as less as possible cc units !!!)

with other words: the new woodies their core is becoming pure crap

Voss
06-07-2005, 08:05
I think you're over-reacting a bit to speculation on a possible change.

You may just have to adjust you're tactics to accomidate the new list. (and storming forward with archery units makes it sound like you really need to adjust tactics anyway).

You also left out the glade riders. (though I think the wild riders are superior in almost every way, for only slightly more.)

Sagatarius
06-07-2005, 09:28
I also think schouts can be usefull when using them the right way. Sure theire points are high but they can do a lot.
You can pu them behind or in woods and then tey can move an shot against the enemy without penalty for moving. glade guards can do the same but with at least 10 of them and in rank anf file they do not have the manoeuvrability like the scouts. and the waywarchers....maybe you need the rareslots for other units. i will try them for sure. if ypu llok just on this unit they aren't good but i think you have to look at the complete army and see how the units support each other.

Galonthar
06-07-2005, 11:03
I think you're over-reacting a bit to speculation on a possible change.

You may just have to adjust you're tactics to accomidate the new list. (and storming forward with archery units makes it sound like you really need to adjust tactics anyway).

hmm.. guess you`re right... and well,.. storming forward with archers,... I didn`t mean charging (or even worse; creating situations where they could be cherged!)
but with this new no penalty with move & shoot, sure does make moving with archers more attractive

and for the scouts,.. well...lets compare then with the old ones:
- from special to core choice (positive:) )
- no -1 penalty with move & shoot (positive:) )
- you must field at least as much units of GG (don`t know what to think,.. don`t really care, an obvious step for GW to prevent the existence of all scout armies)
- serious point increase (negative:( )
- (possible) decrease of range (damn negative from hell :skull: )

Sagatarius
06-07-2005, 11:08
This is an good compare!
Till now the decrease of range is just an rumour and hopefully not true. And if it's like this i can live with and will use them.

Odin
06-07-2005, 12:32
The voices have told me, 5 scouts of 17 pts loose S4 at shortrange ability and you must buy a unit of 10 useless archers to be able to get a unit of scouts.

Er, excuse me? 12 points per model for archers who can move and fire without penalty, move through woods, get S4 at short range and have Bs4. That's good value in my book.

For example, they could spend several turns whittling down the enemy, then when battle is joined they can be useful units to countercharge enemy flanks to remove rank bonus. I'm going to have 2 units of 10 and one unit of 12.

I do agree that scouts seem vastly overpriced. I doubt I'll be using them.

Arthion
06-07-2005, 13:15
They can move for 5" and fire. Sometimes there won't be much wood on the table. S4 on short range which will you get shots for one time, or not even that.
And I dont think they can be fast enough to get out of the way.

The only good point would be Bs4, but they're elves :D.

Sagatarius
06-07-2005, 13:48
They have BS4.....and i think S4 on short distance will bring the enemy under problems...then you can give one unit of glade guards the banner that you always allowed to take stand&shoot and i think this will be a good option.

malisteen
06-07-2005, 14:54
Wood elf archers have 30" range, which means they have a 15" short range. Since they can move forward 5" and fire without penalty, they can choose to extend that to 20". So, yes, they should be able to get at least a single S4 volley off against just about any chargers.

anarchistica
06-07-2005, 15:51
Scouts have normal longbows.

Let's compare them to Waywatchers:

Positive

- have +1BS
- have Killing Blow at short range
- have 2 hand weapons
- deploy like Chameleon Skinks
- are at -1 to be hit by enemy missiles
- are not restricted by the number of Glade Guard units

Negative

- cost +7 points/model
- take up a Rare slot instead of a Core slot
- can't take a musician
- can't take a standard
- champion costs 2 points more

Conclusion

Both Scouts and Waywatchers are a valid choice, but i think Scouts are a far better unit.

Waywatchers will nearly always be able to move and still hit on 2's and because they can easily get within 15" of the enemy, they will usually have Killing Blow shots. This mean they get about 1 Killing Blow per turn, plus 4 S3 hits. They can deploy dangerously close to the enemy and can take out weak elements easily with their two hand weapons each. The enemy will have to either use magic, autohits or dedicate a unit to weed them out, because in soft cover they are at -3 to be hit. This unit can't be too cheap, they will face 10-12 WS4 S3 In5 Attacks.

Waywatchers can thus be an annoyance, but a minor one. They can take out war machines easily, but there are very few war machines that the WE are bothered about and those that WE fear (autohitters) can easily turn Waywatchers into a bloody stain.

Scouts can get of a couple weak S3 shots at 3+ to hit and aside from that aren't very special. However, they kick ass because they get full command group. Do realise that the list has changed quite a bit from the Chronicles incarnation. Warhawk Riders no longer get standards or musicians. Glade Riders only get a 6+ save now, instead of their old 4+ save and more importantly, they no longer get a magic standard. Eight point Glade Guard are gone.

The implications of this are immense. If you want a standard, it will have to come from Glade Riders (24 points, 6+ sv), Eternal Guard (12 points, M5, 5+ sv), Wild Riders (26 points, 5+ sv/5+ wsv), Glade Guard (12 points, M5, no save) or...Scouts who might cost 17 points and have no save, but they do skirmish and scout! The current list is far more focused on close combat, but only the units mentioned have standards. Wardancers only have musicians and Dryads have neither. Units that can provide a standard are either too slow or too frail, Wild Riders are nice but also Immune to Psychology (can't flee from a charge). Scouts however can sit in a forest and come out when you need them. They can bring a musician and a magical standard. With a Warbanner, they provide a +2 CR boost for Dryads and possibly force the enemy to test for Panic as well. Another option is the Banner of Zenith. For the price of a unit of 5 Waywatchers, you have 5 Scouts with a standard that can just wait in the forest till they are needed and in the meantime prevent enemy within 12" (!) from marching.

I might be wrong though. :p

Arthion
06-07-2005, 17:11
I really doubt it that skirmishing scouts will get the full command group. But I guess, you are better informed :).

anarchistica
06-07-2005, 19:03
Well, it is so according to both my sources, i found it curious too.

Simon23
06-07-2005, 20:10
I`m so excited about getting started with the new wood elf rules.

I NEED to see the army book to get some ideas about colour schemes.

I`ll leave rules and tactics until I`ve had a good enough read. I don`t like my opinions to have been moulded until I`ve read the whole book myself.

Odin
06-07-2005, 21:50
Wood elf archers have 30" range, which means they have a 15" short range. Since they can move forward 5" and fire without penalty, they can choose to extend that to 20". So, yes, they should be able to get at least a single S4 volley off against just about any chargers.

Plus they have the option to back away 2.5" and fire. May not sound like much, but against infantry it could well give you an extra turn of S4 shooting.


For the price of a unit of 5 Waywatchers, you have 5 Scouts with a standard that can just wait in the forest till they are needed and in the meantime prevent enemy within 12" (!) from marching.

Surely Scouts won't be allowed to have standard bearers?!? Musicians is one thing, but standards are just not right. And I really can't imagine that they could have a magic standard. Even if it's an option I would never take scouts with a standard.

static grass
06-07-2005, 22:12
Does it actually say that you can fire magical arrows using a magical bow and combine the effects?

Voss
06-07-2005, 22:14
scouts with standards does sound odd. We'll see.

Had some nasty thoughts looking over people's posts on magic items and the lore of athel loren. Think the new wood elf lore sucks? Think again.
Consider a lord level mage, level 4. You've got six power dice.
Take Calaingor's staff. it lets you cast treesinging repeatedly and increases the distance you can move woods
Also take the deepwood sphere. reroll any results of treesinging (# of hits, distance)
maybe a powerstone or two.

Now, an important enemy unit is near (but not in) a nice patch of forest. Treesing it.
Repeatedly. Once or twice to move the woods on top of the unit, then d6 hits at a very nice strength, rerolled if you get poor results. Use 1 die for each casting, 50% of working with no miscasts possible. You've got a minimum of six attempts, more with powerstones or other wizards in the army.

d6 hits per casting can add up really quickly. Plus, of course, if the enemy does survive, they've got to move out of difficult ground.

You can also take the items required for a hero level mage as well, though you obviously won't have as many power dice. And the sphere has an additional nasty effect if you're in the same wood...

Its potentially a very sick combo for relatively cheap items and the default spell in the list.

portentjunkie
07-07-2005, 00:29
scouts with standards does sound odd. We'll see.

Had some nasty thoughts looking over people's posts on magic items and the lore of athel loren. Think the new wood elf lore sucks? Think again.
Consider a lord level mage, level 4. You've got six power dice.
Take Calaingor's staff. it lets you cast treesinging repeatedly and increases the distance you can move woods
Also take the deepwood sphere. reroll any results of treesinging (# of hits, distance)
maybe a powerstone or two.

Now, an important enemy unit is near (but not in) a nice patch of forest.

Now, consider a table without a forest in a non pitched battle scenario.

That's something not at all uncommon to run into at a GW tourney, and while he can do a lot with forests, it's a whole lots of wasted points when you don't have any.

Voss
07-07-2005, 04:38
Its all of 50 wasted points. He still has other spells. And from what I understand, wood elves still get their free patch of forest...

and after all, its an idea and illustration that the new lore can be potentially devastating, not a 'must-have' for all WE armies.

malisteen
07-07-2005, 16:24
Does it actually say that you can fire magical arrows using a magical bow and combine the effects?

unless it specifically says otherwise. Counting those exceptions, the only magic bow that can shoot magic arrows is the bow of Loren (# of shots = # of attacks, no strength boost anymore). On the other hand, the only magic arrow that specifically cannot be shot by a magic bow is the hail of doom arrow.

So 3 to 5 shots per turn of S3, armor ignoring shots are possible. or 3 to 5 shots that cause panic for even a single wound, or 3 to 5 shots that if they wound success, or 3 to 5 shots that if they wound cause stupidity (immune to psyk and units of 1 wound models are immune), etc.


oddly enough, the waywatcher killing blow ability doesn't stack with ANY magic bows or arrows, even the magic bow that, according to fluff, was specifically built for a particular waywatcher hero, making the waywatcher kindred somewhat lackluster for archery heroes (although it might have some value for close deploying close combat heroes, though I doubt it).

koven_lexter
07-07-2005, 17:10
Regarding Voss's suggestion, firstly you can't take more than one Arcane Item on a single character (apart from dispel scrolls and/or power stones). So you can't take Calaingor's Stave and the Deepwood Sphere on the same character. Secondly, I believe when moving a wood using Treesing the wood stops as soon as it touches an enemy model. So you can move the wood so that it's just touching the enemy, but they are technically not in it, so you can't cast Treesing to damage that unit either, since the damaging part of Treesing only works on units that are at least partially in a wood. And finally, I believe the Wood Elves only get their free extra wood in Pitched Battles, not in any other scenarios.

Guardsmen
08-07-2005, 02:34
so is the Tree hvy list just a waste or can it work?
??

Voss
08-07-2005, 03:20
ah, well.
I usually go light on magic items, so I forgot that particular limit.

as for the details on treesinging, well, thats Theoryhammer. Fine details on plans will have to wait until I actually sit down with the book.

The stave still strikes me as useful, even if you can't easily bludgeon enemies to death with treesinging. Blocking the path of a major unit by creeping a wood in front of it, or blocking LOS of certain warmachines can certainly aid a WE force.

@malisteen- as I understand it the cost for the bow and any magical arrows puts the combo into lord only territory, so wouldn't it be 4 shots? Is anyone certain that any additional attacks from magic items/kindred actually add to the shots from the bow?

Nargrakhan
08-07-2005, 09:21
I have problems "emulating" with the Wood Elves, so I truly dislike the new book. Silly... real silly... but its the honest truth... I just don't like the "mainstream" tactics that come to mind when I see the unit listing.

Sagatarius
08-07-2005, 09:27
So what you want to do with Wood Elves? What tactics you wanna play?

Arthion
08-07-2005, 10:55
Well concerning full commando group and scouts. It just got confirmed from somebody which already has the AB. You may use it. Though you sink so many points into that unit... I don't see how that would help. Maybe a musician and battle standard with Warbanner. But even then, this unit would be a lot of points.

malisteen
08-07-2005, 13:08
A unit of five is under 100 points, and so may be useful for the sole purpose of having a scouting unit (to deny enemy scouting units room to deploy should you win the roll, to march block, to hunt lone wizards, or whatever). As for standards, there's one that works particularly well with a scout unit, and that's the Banner of the Zenith, which prevents enemy troops from marching when within 12 inches (instead of the normal 8).

The unit has some potential, so I won't write it off, although it does look to be too expensive for what it does. The main tactics for wood elves seems to be skirmished/fast cav dual assaults supported by light archery & magic, mage hunting, and a few units that can take a charge. This strikes me as being pretty much how wood elves should play, and, all in all, the army looks much more enjoyable to play against, due to the absence of 5-man archer squads, units that can see through 4 inches of woods, cheap scouts, and plentiful eagles.

Voss
09-07-2005, 04:18
And on the plus side for the wood elves, some of those light units look like they do some serious damage on the charge, even to heavy cavalry.

No more scrabbling for VPs by wiping out support units and running from the rest.

The s4 at short range and no move penalty makes those 10 man archer units capable of dealing out some respectable hurt in a 20" zone. The scouts on thinking about it (my initial reaction was poor), but they definitely have potential possibilities in march-blocking and leading enemy units into traps.

Chris_Tzeentch
09-07-2005, 18:29
From the very detailed information doing the rounds on the wood elf army book, I don't think I am going to do the army. I have already ordered my army deal. So I basically have two options - cancel the order, and get a refund, or split the army deal, and sell the individual elements on eBay.

What do you guys think would be the best option?

anarchistica
09-07-2005, 20:42
From the very detailed information doing the rounds on the wood elf army book, I don't think I am going to do the army. I have already ordered my army deal. So I basically have two options - cancel the order, and get a refund, or split the army deal, and sell the individual elements on eBay.

What do you guys think would be the best option?
Make a list (the list is in AB already, with some minor bugs -just get the program or the free demo, the beta datafile from my yahoo group and your set) and try it out with some proxies. If anything, i think this list is much more fun to play with. Instead of hanging back and blasting away you're now encouraged, forced almost, to get up close and personal.

Galonthar
09-07-2005, 21:07
anarchistica, what is this "WF6 Army Builder 2.2 File Manager", you mention in your sig.?,... and where can you download it ???

Chris_Tzeentch
09-07-2005, 21:54
Make a list (the list is in AB already, with some minor bugs -just get the program or the free demo, the beta datafile from my yahoo group and your set) and try it out with some proxies. If anything, i think this list is much more fun to play with. Instead of hanging back and blasting away you're now encouraged, forced almost, to get up close and personal.

To be honest, I wanted a list I could base around blocks of infantry, with specialist troops supporting. I realise in hindsight, the Wood Elves are not the army for this.

anarchistica
09-07-2005, 22:08
anarchistica, what is this "WF6 Army Builder 2.2 File Manager", you mention in your sig.?,... and where can you download it ???
You can get a demo version of either AB 2 or 3 here (www.wolflair.com). The full program costs about 40 bucks i think. It's a program that allows you to easily, quickly and neatly make lists for armies for most game systems (not just GW's games). All the information relevant to a single game system is put into a datafile and those are maintained by volunteers. I'm the guy who keeps the WFB datafile for AB2 up to date.

@ Chris_Tzeentch: You're probably new at Warhammer, eh? :p

Cenyu
09-07-2005, 22:58
I am a bit confused about the point costs of Dryads... according to the released information they are 8 points cheaper than in the Chronicles list...

Are we talking about a skirmishing, fear causing core unit with S and T of 4, 2 attacks and a demonic armour save? Where is the drawback?

:-/

"Hooray" for mass Dryads.

Max_Killfactor
09-07-2005, 23:09
Make a list (the list is in AB already, with some minor bugs -just get the program or the free demo, the beta datafile from my yahoo group and your set) and try it out with some proxies. If anything, i think this list is much more fun to play with. Instead of hanging back and blasting away you're now encouraged, forced almost, to get up close and personal.

Awesome, you make new files really fast. I just submitted to join you're group... I hope I make the cut.

Army Builder is great. I must have made at least twenty 2000 point Dark Elves lists.

Since the Wood Elves got so many new units and had so many changes, it will take a lot of expirimenting to find the "right" list. Army builder really speeds up that process.

anarchistica
09-07-2005, 23:34
I am a bit confused about the point costs of Dryads... according to the released information they are 8 points cheaper than in the Chronicles list...

Are we talking about a skirmishing, fear causing core unit with S and T of 4, 2 attacks and a demonic armour save? Where is the drawback?
Can't flee from a charge and only have a 5+ Ward Save against non-Magical Attacks.

Rabid Bunny 666
09-07-2005, 23:51
and no dryad aspects

malisteen
10-07-2005, 07:03
with lack of ranks & standard, and being unable to take ranks themselves, dryads are quite vulnerable to standard combat res bonuses.

Dooppie
10-07-2005, 07:50
Dryad are very good.
Better stats then a saurus warior, Immume too Phy, deamon +5 ward safe, Fear, nice movement (not sure) and last but not least they are Core choise :cool:
I think 1 or more units dryads become standard in a wood elf army.
T4 instaed of the T3 of elfs is nice :D and beastmen players are not happy with this unit!

Galonthar
10-07-2005, 08:28
so dryads have no armour save at all, and only have ward against NON-magical attacks?..... hmm... time to hunt down mages, and magic weapon bearers.... :rolleyes:

static grass
11-07-2005, 18:39
As for standards, there's one that works particularly well with a scout unit, and that's the Banner of the Zenith, which prevents enemy troops from marching when within 12 inches (instead of the normal 8).



Ouch I hope my dwarfs are immune to this. I guess they will be given they have relentless special rool.

night2501
11-07-2005, 19:36
nya soo many new shiny toy to play with, witch one should I use, is hard to decide...
I try making some list, and the true is really hard to chose wath to use, specially with characters, so many combinations so many ways of using thm, but they eat points like crazy, one lord on eagle and 2 scrool cadies made 500 to 600 points :( I m tempted to take 2 nobles and 2 scrool cadies... or mabie one noble one higborn and one scrool cady and hunt the mages the first turns like crazy...good I made like 10 list and most of the tyme I could not chose rares...wath I noticed unless you leave HtH characters completly put you will hav elittle to nothing of magic defense...

Simon23
11-07-2005, 19:49
I`m only using one scroll caddy. My anti-mage brigade consists of a wardancer lord with moonstone of the hidden ways and 9 wardancers (nice little suprise for my opponent!), 7 waywatchers, A unit of glade riders dedicated to mage hunting and....and...ermmmm yeah. No I added a pageant of skrikes to my mage in place of a dispel scroll and the hunters talon to my noble. Mage killing is my top priority because against a magic heavy army, once the mages are dead they`ll never be able to avoid all my sneaky traps and gubbinz.
If worst comes to worst I have two units of Wild Riders which can go mage hunting but I`d prefer to save them and the treekin for counterattack goodness. :p
In the end every army has a weakness and for a lot of woodelves armies its going to be magic, I`ve always found it works out better to specialise in one aspect than try and cover all bases, especially when your playing expensive elves.

night2501
11-07-2005, 19:52
well I was thinking about using warhawk riders for mage hunting coupled with an alter kindred hero or lord (basicaly charge the mage kill him in HtH and run like hell)

samw
11-07-2005, 19:58
I'm gonna go magic heavy with a spellweaver and two spell singers. This plus the wand of wych elm and a couple of scrolls should stop even a magic heavy army.

P.S. can WE wizards take aspects other than glamourweave? A scouting wizard could be interesting.

Lord Gordonis
11-07-2005, 20:04
i really do like the new WE models as well as the new rules for them, the mini's look they are wild, the waywatcher lord, the dryads look more feral than the old ones, the warhawk riders are soooo gd, and Drycha Branchwraith look good

Nazguire
12-07-2005, 00:48
so dryads have no armour save at all, and only have ward against NON-magical attacks?..... hmm... time to hunt down mages, and magic weapon bearers.... :rolleyes:

No armour at all? So I guess that layer of really hard bark counts for nothing? :eyebrows: The logic of the Games Designers astounds me.
They still have their uses however. Just not for hunting down characters so much anymore :cries:

portentjunkie
12-07-2005, 02:05
No armour at all? So I guess that layer of really hard bark counts for nothing? :eyebrows: The logic of the Games Designers astounds me.

Well, in all fairness, bark isn't exactly known for it's axe stopping power now is it? :evilgrin:

Nazguire
12-07-2005, 02:13
Well, in all fairness, bark isn't exactly known for it's axe stopping power now is it? :evilgrin:


But that is when a tree is standing perfectly still ready to receive a blow from an axe. ;)

When a Dryad fights, it doesn't stand still. It moves around from what I can perceive, gracefully, so the power of the stroke doesn't go through the bark as much. So it should at least allow 6+ save, a 5+ at best :evilgrin:

malisteen
12-07-2005, 06:13
That is factored into their initiative, weapon skill, toughness, and ward save. For pete's sake, they're T4 core troops in an elf army!

Sagatarius
12-07-2005, 06:44
Yeah, with S4, A2 and causes fear. And the best is they are standart troops an no elite anymore.
I think they will do their job. What you guys thinking about the Warhawkriders? In our german forum the most guys mean they are crap and not worth their points. In our forum most WE players think that WE aren't that good as before. Is this here the same opinion?

malisteen
12-07-2005, 07:06
While it will take a lot of actual playing to say for sure, rather then just looking at the rules, it does seem that wood elves are less powerful then they were before, or at least less difficult to beat.

That said, the army should be more enjoyable to play with and against, and should encourage more variety between different wood elf armies, so all and all it's a better army book, just not a stronger one.

The strengths of the old book were mostly in victory point refusal. There was nothing the enemy could catch other then 5 man archer squads with hardly any points in them. Wood elves weakened the enemy with shooting for several turns, running from any combat, and only ever engaging with dual charges from uberunits like dryads and wardancers.

Nowadays, WE victory point refusal has been severely restricted, with more expensive models, a larger min for archers, no more 4" los through forests for waywatchers, and so forth, while the various combat roles in the wood elf army have been split between several units (dancers, dryads, treekin, eternal guard, wild riders), rather then concentrated in just a few.

Overall, I think WE players who are at first dissapointed with the new rules will, given time, adapt to them and come to enjoy the new book for what it is.


As for warhawk riders, they do seem very steeply priced for what they can do, but I'm going to give them a shot anyway. They're a quirky unit, so they deserve some playing before they get disregarded entirely.

Voss
12-07-2005, 07:34
No armour at all? So I guess that layer of really hard bark counts for nothing? :eyebrows: The logic of the Games Designers astounds me.
They still have their uses however. Just not for hunting down characters so much anymore :cries:

They have a ward save. 1/3 of the hits of a normal, sharp steel axe do absolutely nothing. No matter if its a gnoblar or an irongut whacking it. Plus, you know, the toughness, which is a better measure of such things anyway.

Bark, by the way, isn't really that hard. Rough and protection against small animals and blowing debris, but not something you want to trust to stand up to steel. The actual wood is a good bit more resilent.

anarchistica
12-07-2005, 11:58
Ouch I hope my dwarfs are immune to this. I guess they will be given they have relentless special rool.
Of course, it just increases the distance where people normally can't march but Dwarfs normally can march there anyway.


nya soo many new shiny toy to play with, witch one should I use, is hard to decide...
Most items will prove to suck after using them a couple of times or if you've thought them over. I thought Merciw's Locus rocked but it seems it will only work for people striking the bearer (not any mount).

Underway
12-07-2005, 16:03
No armour at all? So I guess that layer of really hard bark counts for nothing? :eyebrows: The logic of the Games Designers astounds me.
They still have their uses however. Just not for hunting down characters so much anymore :cries:

I guess you don't know anything about dryads in the new book now do you? They are not trees. They are forest spirits that take on a war aspect with tree like features. No bark, just look like leafless bushes. Their other aspect is a fanciful forest nymph one. No bark there either. They are magical spirits though so get a deamonic save.

Treekin and Treemen have scally skin saves because they are either spirits that have possesed dead trees (treekin) or treelike creatures (treemen). So does that clarify the saves for you?

Elyas
13-07-2005, 05:50
What does st. or ST stand for? I saw it a few times going through Lestat's review of the army book.

Voss
13-07-2005, 06:17
From the context, I'd say he was using it as saving throw (armor save). Its a little misleading, I think, since you can abbreviate STrength the same way.

anarchistica
13-07-2005, 16:20
I did a quick list of magic items that seem worthwhile. I'll rate them 1-5, note that like Xenageo i've not played with the list and am only reading them for the first/second time...from a book copy that might have bugs. I'll compare it to Xenageo's comments too.

Magic Weapons

(5) Bow of Loren - Same amount of shots, but it's just a longbow now. Very good still, with the new arrows. We agree, though i removed the Bodkin Arrows from my list because the Starfire arrows seem more worthwhile.

(2) The Hunter's Talon - Sniper longbow. The Pageant of Shrikes might be S4, but this thing has almost double the range. Ratling Guns, Hellblaster crew and Wizards could be worth the low investment. There's only one Bow of Loren anyway. Well i thought of Ratling Guns, Xenageo didn't see the use. The combo with Hagbane Arrows is 60 points by the way, no one would waste so many points on something with such poor return.

Magic Armour

(2) Helm of the Hunt - Helm that gives +1WS/A on charge. Might be useful. We agree.

(4) Oaken Armour - Light armour + Regeneration. A hero can afford it and there's few other things that can keep you safe against ranged attacks. Also, it works with Amaranthine Brooch (though combined they won't allow you to take Annoyance of Netlings). We agree.

Talismans

(5) Amaranthine Brooch - 3+ Ethereal Ward Save. Hello everyone with a great weapon (i.e. every character). Hello every non-Dwarves war machine and missile unit. Duh.

(3) Stone of Rebirth - Similar to Tyrion's Ward, but it only kicks in on your last W. Possibility to be extremely annoying, if only it were 5 points cheaper. You didn't mention it.

(2) Stone of the Crystal Mere - Same as Golden Eye, except it lasts till you fail the save. It could very well keep you and the Dragon/Unicorn/whatever safe for the one turn before they can charge. However, someone could just pummel you with piecemeal missiles and make you fail it. Still, Golden Eye is an uberstaple and this is a weaker rip off... Erm, doesn't Merciw's Locus only work on people targetting the bearer?

Amber Pendant is useless if you consider the generally high In and the fact it's a Talisman. Mounted stuff is In5, Dryads and Wardancers are In6, your Alter guys are In9 and the rest is tough enough to survive. Fimbulwinter Shard i removed while typing, it's just not as useful as the Brooch for Dragonriders.

Enchanted Items

(5) Hail of Doom Arrow - Same as now. Spellsingers can combine it with Ranu's Heartstone, Nobles with Enchanted Shield or Helm of the Hunt. Doh!

(1) Moonstone of the Hidden Ways - Teleports a unit once, using woods as warpgates. Bit expensive (can't use with AoN), though -again AFAIK- you can teleport dragons with this. Or you could set up really juicy charges. Pity you have to take the Wild Rider or Glamourweave kindred to be able to join Wild Riders though. :/ More agreeing here.

(4) Starfire Arrows - Remember what's so nasty about the Flame Cannon? With just one 'succesful' shot from these you can make it seem the unit lost 25%. Then again, you kill someone with 3/4 S3 shots. We agree again.

(2) Wraithstone - Cursed Book but for Ld. With all those Fear and Terror troops, and the general lack of standards, this might just help you break the enemy. I think this should be rated 1 perhaps, but it's such a nice effect.

Arcane Bodkins? With the Bow of Loren and Alter Kindred that's 95 points for a Highborn. You get what, 3 or 4 no armour save hits at S3? Your Highborn doesn't really get to use either the shots or his M9, and he's only got 40 points for protection left. I don't really see it happening, though i might be wrong. Elynett's Brooch is worthless. Reroll failed Psychology tests? Aside from missile troops and Glade Riders (and Eternal Guard...), everything is Immune to Psychology.

Arcane Items

(3) Calaingor's Stave - "Super" Ditto's Double Doin' Doodaahs for Treesinging + boosting it "5 feet in real life". And you can take it with a Dispel Scroll.
Worthless? If a unit even touches a forest you can hurl as many D6 S5 hits at them as you can roll 4+'s...

(4) Deepwood Sphere - Teclis-like rules for Treesinging spell and turns entire forest into a Warrior Familiar! If it really does work on models instead of units this thing can basically turn a forest into impassible terrain.
Dude, a S5 hit on every model (if that is so) touching the forest, dead nasty.

(5) Ranu's Heartstone - Old Mark of Tzeentch.
Maybe i'm biased because i always roll a miscast with my Wizard Lords in turn one and get result "3"...

Wand of Wych Elm? Needs a Mage Lord and for the same price you get 2 Scrolls. sure, the re-roll is nice, but is it worth a Mage Lord dedicated to defense?

Magic Standards

(4) Banner of Zenith - Increases no-marching zone by 50%. Scouts can take it...Insignificant? You just increased the block range of Scouts from 16" to 24". If you use them to block, that's very very annoying.

Banner of Midwinter? On Ld9 Stubborn troops? That you don't want to take anyway? Banner of Dwindling when you already pursue 3D6? Nah, give me the good ole Warbanner anyime.

Spites

(5) Annoyance of Netlings - Remember Black Gem of Gnar? Picture it on a Dragon. Only now the Dragon and his rider can strike while the enemy is missing 5/6th of his attacks...Er...:D

(2) Blight of Terrors - Guess what it does...and you can Scout with it. :P Well you can give it to a Hero and Scout with it. And you try getting an 8+ spell off with 6 Power Dice at you disposal (2*Level 2), within 18" too.

(3) Cluster of Radiants - One additional big D-cup. It's like the Seal of Grond, i could see this used with a Dispel Scroll if you have a Scrollcaddy doubleteam. We're agreeing.

(1) Lamentation of Despairs - Tomb King's curse, except with half the maximum Wounds and it's a normal level Bound Spell. Not really worth it because it's very risky, but would you take the risk? That Tzeentch Champion is only Ld8/W2. And this thing can be combined with a Dispel Scroll, Deepwood Sphere or Calaingor's Stave. Very risky yes, but not just for you. I think the fact that you might have this item will affect your opponent more than actually having this. You'd need to go magic heavy to really benefit from it.

(3) Pageant of Shrikes - Might work with AoN. Snipe within 18" with S4, always hitting on "unmodified BS4" (vague, eh?). However, you can only take 1 Spite on an Elf, and the Tree characters don't seem overly useful. But would you mind sucking up half a heroes magic allowance to be able to target Ratling Guns, Hellblaster crew and weak Wizards? It doesn't "work" with Bow of Loren for as far as i know, but it's still nice.

Resplendance of Luminiscents and Dryads? They already have magical attacks. A Murder of Spites? Three or four extra S2 Poisoned Attacks? Tree Spirits don't seem to be worth it anyway, you need the Spire slot for Annoyance on that combat Lore.



Kindreds

(5) Alter - Nike Nobles and Highborns. Sure, they are reduced to 'loners', but you do get Nike movement and an extra Attack. Combine with Helm of the Hunt, Amaranthine Brooch, AoN and a great weapon. A Highborn with 6A, S6, WS8 on the charge (-1A/WS after that). Slam him in the front of a unit touching the enemy character or a champion (you can only accept a challenge if you're in btb with an enemy, right?) and hit it with other stuff in the flank or rear. If the champion accepts, he's dead and you get overkill. If the character accepts, he will only hit on 6's and you get a 3+ ward against his great weapon. This guy can move 18" through forests and easily stay within 5" of an infantry unit to be safe. Well, kinda obvious seeing we keep ranting about this.

(1) Scout - No great weapon sucks, but it's very cheap for Noble, cheap enough to take with Pageant of Shrikes and still be under 120 points. Or you can take it with HoDA and be within short range directly. Or whatever. It's so cheap it must be slightly useful at least. I only rated it a 1, but it might not be worthless. C'mon, 15 points not coming from your magic item limit to have that sniping Noble Scout, that's nice.

(2) Glamourweave - Rather cheap and let's your Wizard ride a unicorn. You become a Forest Spirit, but if you avoid her being set up to be charged she'll be fine (MR 2 + ethereal 5+ ward save helps). It's required for taking a unicorn and it might work very well together. Magic Resistance (2) + Wizard, Movement 10, 5+ Ethereal Ward save, ItP, etc.

Wild Rider isn't worth it because Forest Spirits can't join non-Forests Spirits and vice versa. That Ward save and MR won't do much if the unit already has it...

Conclusion: We agree on most things, any further comments and corrections Xenageo?

Arthion
13-07-2005, 18:34
People its Sprites not Spites :). If you dont believe me look it up in a lexicon.

Thanks for the info anarchistica. Btw. I thought you cant use magical arrows with hunter's talon?

anarchistica
13-07-2005, 19:18
People its Sprites not Spites :). If you dont believe me look it up in a lexicon.

Thanks for the info anarchistica. Btw. I thought you cant use magical arrows with hunter's talon?
Correct. That kills the entire 'combo'. :p

g0ddy
13-07-2005, 20:25
Its spelt Spites in the WE Book. IMHO they seem to be describing Sprites however :p

- g0ddy

Lindinblade
14-07-2005, 10:30
Its spelt Spites in the WE Book. IMHO they seem to be describing Sprites however :p

- g0ddy

No?

"spite-

n 1: feeling a need to see others suffer [syn: malice, maliciousness, spitefulness, venom] 2: malevolence by virtue of being malicious or spiteful or nasty "

LaughinGremlin
14-07-2005, 19:35
Is it just possible that GW decided to use "Spite" instead of "Sprite" to show that these little pixies are much more malicious / war-like than your typical sprite? This would be just one of the many ways they're trying to give WE a darker flavor. It wouldn't be the first time the GW doctored a traditional monster, or a place by simply removing a letter or two.

example: Tolkien's Lorien was changed to Loren. How could anyone be at all surprised to see the word "Spite" be used for the fae in the gloomy world of Warhammer? Oh, the humanity! :rolleyes: / :eek:

Elyas
15-07-2005, 03:24
After reading Lestat's info/review of the book (see page 2), I have a few questions about rules/abilities that he refered to.

1. What does the Eldar ability Mindwar do?

2. What does a Dark Eldar Shadow Field do (basically, is the ward save restricted in some way)?

3. What is the minimum cost of lord-only items? (I can't seem to find any lord-only items in the VC book...)

4. Did Lestat make a mistake when he said that the new Bow of Loren costs 15 points less than the old one? If that info is correct, then the new Bow costs the same as a dispel scroll, but there are several places where it seems that that is not so (see costs for Alter Kindred).

5. Does anyone know the stats/cost of a Great Stag? Lestat mentioned it as an option for the Glamourweave kindred, but he only said that they were useless and never gave the stats.

Thanks!

malisteen
15-07-2005, 03:34
1) roll off leaderships, loser takes wounds equal to loss. spirit sword is the less good version, because you have to wound them first, and you can take the wounds if you lose the roll off.

2) it's a ward save that works until you fail it, then it goes away.

3) once an item costs more then 50 points it is a lord only item, as hero's can't have more then 50 points of magical items. The Carstein Ring is an example in vampires. It costs 100 points, so vampire hero's can't take it.

4) It costs more then a dispel scroll, but less then it did before. I don't want to be more specific for board rule reasons.

5) great stags are an option for wild rider kindred, not glamourweave. The stag is similar (not identical) in points and stats to your standard daemonic steed (think something like a slightly weaker winged nightmare without the wings). At the moment WE armchair theorists consider it to be a weak option because it's larger base size means the model can't hide in units, but it isn't really tough enough to survive out in the open, nor strong enough to provide a meaningful impact on its own. Or at least, so goes their reasoning. Doesn't matter to me, as there won't be a model and I don't wish to try and convert one myself.

Elyas
15-07-2005, 21:06
Thanks a bunch!

Sagatarius
17-07-2005, 18:23
The think is that as far as i know GW want bring out an model for Unicorn or Great Stag. The Unicorn isn't a problem cause the Brets have one, but there is no Stag. I hope they will bring out one or at least Forge Worls will support one.

Baindread
17-07-2005, 20:00
Correct. That kills the entire 'combo'. :p


A bit off-topic. I would like to download the beta file for Army builder from your yahoo group. I could do that earlier but it seems I can't press the link to files (It's greyed out).

anarchistica
17-07-2005, 20:04
A bit off-topic. I would like to download the beta file for Army builder from your yahoo group. I could do that earlier but it seems I can't press the link to files (It's greyed out).
You have to become a member first.

Baindread
17-07-2005, 20:09
You have to become a member first.

I have a vague memory from last year becoming a member....of course I am not sure. Maybe I joined a list or just joined the group or something :confused:

How do I become a member then?

anarchistica
17-07-2005, 20:19
Click "Join this group" in the upper right corner? ;)

Shadevar
19-07-2005, 18:05
Can anyone give a summary of the Alter Kindred power from a fluff standpoint? A friend and I are thinking of building an army based around this character but want to be certain we are seeing it correctly as we are planning major conversions if in fact it's what we think it is.

What does the book consider this power as? Does the elf take on bestial characteristics and form? Or do they appear as any Noble or Highborn but contain a more feral power? Or....does it say nothing at all?

Elyas
20-07-2005, 17:29
Do the dragontooth arrows cause stupidity for just one turn or the rest of the game?

anarchistica
20-07-2005, 19:17
Do the dragontooth arrows cause stupidity for just one turn or the rest of the game?
Rest of the game. It only works on models though.

malisteen
20-07-2005, 19:58
example 1- dragontooth arrow hits and kills a goblin. Well, the goblin suffered a wound, so it's now stupid, but it also died, so it's no longer there to impose that stupidity upon the rest of that unit.

example 2- dragontooth arrow gets a lucky wound on an ogre. That ogre is now stupid, potentially slowing down its unit. Later you cause two more wounds to the unit, and your opponant removes the already injured ogre as a casualty, as per the rules for units of multiwound models. With the stupid model now dead, that unit no longer suffers the ill effects of its stupidity.

Overall you'd usually be better off with bodkins or starfire arrows.

Elyas
20-07-2005, 20:00
So they basically have no effect on single-wound models? Or does the model suffer from stupidity even if the wound is saved?

NakedFisherman
20-07-2005, 20:24
example 1- dragontooth arrow hits and kills a goblin. Well, the goblin suffered a wound, so it's now stupid, but it also died, so it's no longer there to impose that stupidity upon the rest of that unit.

example 2- dragontooth arrow gets a lucky wound on an ogre. That ogre is now stupid, potentially slowing down its unit. Later you cause two more wounds to the unit, and your opponant removes the already injured ogre as a casualty, as per the rules for units of multiwound models. With the stupid model now dead, that unit no longer suffers the ill effects of its stupidity.

Overall you'd usually be better off with bodkins or starfire arrows.

Which makes no sense since a single Ogre cannot be wounded. What happens if it's hit the next turn with a Dragontooth arrow?

Are two models Stupid, or just one? There is no precendent for this and according to the rules the thing doesn't even work in the first place since the unit takes the wounds and not the models.

Unless any unit with wounds on it suffers from Stupidity which is how I'd play it. That would mean every Ogre suffers from Stupidity.

I don't have the WE book with me, but I'll check it later today.

Edit: And mods, please move this. :P

EvC
20-07-2005, 22:52
147 posts into this thread and my sole contribution is to say the book seems really thin ccmpared to other army books. Moving swiftly on...

malisteen
22-07-2005, 03:52
There's precedent. Precedent in that wounds are to be removed as full models where possible. It is a simple extrapolation to reach the conclusion that all wounds go to the same model until it is dead, then the wounds move onto the next model.

So if ogre unit suffered a wound from dragontooth it would be stupid. If it suffered another wound from dragontooth it would still be stupid. If it suffered a third wound from dragontooth (or from anything else) then one model would die, and the unit would no longer be stupid.

Lame? yeah. Does it matter? Not terribly. Since dragontooth arrows specifically affect models and not units, and thus don't work at all on units of one wound models nomatter how you interperate their effects on multiwound units, I can't really see anyone taking these arrows over arcane bodkins or starfire arrows. How many archer characters would you need before you ran out of useful arrows and actually considered dragonteeth? One for bodkins, one for starfire, one for HoDA, one for the hunters talon (which doesn't allow magic arrows).

So, in my mind, you'd have to be playing 3,000 points or more before you should ever end up considering dragonteeth, and even then that's only if you aren't fielding any branchwraiths, ancients, bladeweavers, possessed horselords, or special characters, and feel a need for your mages to waste their points on arrows instead of scrolls & staves.... Needless to say, I expect to see dragonteeth approxamitally once or twice in, oh, I don't know, never.

Jericho
22-07-2005, 08:43
Can anyone give a summary of the Alter Kindred power from a fluff standpoint? A friend and I are thinking of building an army based around this character but want to be certain we are seeing it correctly as we are planning major conversions if in fact it's what we think it is.

What does the book consider this power as? Does the elf take on bestial characteristics and form? Or do they appear as any Noble or Highborn but contain a more feral power? Or....does it say nothing at all?They can "adopt aspects" of the animals of the forest... doesn't say if they're actual shapeshifters or if their combat style simply reflects the animal they choose, kinda like Tiger vs. Crane kung fu disciplines. I'm guessing the latter, they pick the animal that best suits their skills and try to reflect that in their tactics and demeanor.

Oh, and in case anyone still wasn't convinced, Wardancers continue to butcher everything that touches them.

Unit of 8 with musician and champion, led by Wardancer Kindred Highborn with Blades of Loec and Amber Pendant. They take a combined charge of Chosen Knights in the front, and Marauder Horsemen with flails got in by a hair's width on their flank. Marauders kill two, Chosen kill one before the Wardancers unleash Killing Blow hell and wipe out the Knights. The ones forced to strike last by the Pendant never stood a chance.

Marauders miraculously hold, but the Lord is enough to finish them off with overkill in the next round. ~380 points worth of kills and a captured banner from two rounds of combat, and could easily have been in one round of combat. And under bad conditions... thought those Marauders would never make it since over an inch of the charge was through trees :p Anyway, I'll never be leaving home without at least 8 and a hero, they've massacred everything they've come across in every game I've played with the new book.

Sagatarius
22-07-2005, 09:16
I got a question about the options the new WE.
Do you think iz's possible to play a Highborn on Dragen in 2000 points? The two heros left i would take two Spellsingers.
Do you think this combiation could work, or is it too weak?

Jericho
22-07-2005, 09:22
I don't think too weak is ever a consideration when Dragons are involved, but there's definitely the issue of finding enough points to finish the rest of your army. That's probably 25-30% of your points sunk into one model, so it's really under a lot of pressure to perform. You can take items to beef him up in combat, shooting, or even to simply make his flying around causing Terror checks role more effective. But I'm not sure if you'll be able to build much of a list around him.

And leaving no Nobles for making EG Stubborn is a bit iffy as well, they're a great unit to soak charges with, and allow your other units to pile on. Who needs a fair fight anyway :p

anarchistica
22-07-2005, 17:06
I got a question about the options the new WE.
Do you think iz's possible to play a Highborn on Dragen in 2000 points? The two heros left i would take two Spellsingers.
Do you think this combiation could work, or is it too weak?
It could work, but the Highborn on Dragon will set you back about 530-560 points. Problem is the Annoyance of Netlings only works on the character and not on the Dragon. However, a Dragon is still WS6 T6 3+ save, so it might work.

NakedFisherman
22-07-2005, 18:58
There's precedent. Precedent in that wounds are to be removed as full models where possible. It is a simple extrapolation to reach the conclusion that all wounds go to the same model until it is dead, then the wounds move onto the next model.

Maybe in 40K, but not Fantasy.

malisteen
25-07-2005, 14:01
You you're saying that in Fantasy an ogre or troll unit that takes three wounds can distribute one wound to each model and remove no casualties?

As for the dragon, sure you can do that. Many wood elves will still play with treemen in 2,000 points, and a dragon (arguably much more effective), is only few more points then that. Just take out the treeman you otherwise might have considered and plop your lord on a dragon instead. Maybe grab the 3+ shadowfield that works for rider an mount, the killing blow spear, and a hail of doom. Deploy behind a forest, first turn fly out and launch your breath & magic arrow, cause some terror on your opponants turn, and second turn charge the thing in, preferably a combined with maybe some wild riders.

NakedFisherman
25-07-2005, 17:39
You you're saying that in Fantasy an ogre or troll unit that takes three wounds can distribute one wound to each model and remove no casualties?


My post is still up there. Read it for yourself.

Grab a rulebook and turn to page 65. Read 'Multiple Wound Casualties'.

Specific models do not take wounds a la 40K. The unit does. The problem with Dragontooth Arrows is that you don't know which model is stupid because wounds are never allocated to the model in the first place. It's a rule that is often glanced over by those that assume a die marker by a model means that that particular model is wounded.

You will never find a BRB entry that tells you to mark wounds on a model in a unit of multi-wound models. They always specify to mark wounds on the unit and there is absolutely no mention of marking wounds on models with dice and other things.

Elyas
25-07-2005, 17:59
I think there's a bit of confusion over this multi-wound models issue, so I'll try to clear it up. Page 65 of the rulebook does say that you must remove whole models where possible so malisteen is right in that regard. However, what I think what NakedFisherman is trying to say is that although whole models are removed, remaining wounds are not allocated to any specific model, but rather to the unit as a whole. In other words, we can't say that "this model is stupid so the whole unit suffers from stupidity". Rather, we should say that "a model in this unit is stupid so the whole unit suffers from stupidity".

malisteen
25-07-2005, 19:03
If you go by that, then dragontooth arrows have no effect on units what-so-ever. They only effect models, if no model was actually wounded then no effect. I suppose it will have to wait for a Q & A.

Falcon
26-07-2005, 08:44
I don't see a whole unit becomming stupid because 1 model was hit. Either it works on single model units or it affects the whole unit. Since it is magical it may as well affect the whole unit. It would make mores sense as well and make it usable. (Despite what a lot of people feel I believe there is some purpose behind GW's rules and they would not release something which is completely useless, just to fill a magic item slot ;-)

Muffin Man
26-07-2005, 09:37
So we hope, I recall the GW response to the useless Zombie Pirate magic items was: "Nothing says we weren't saving that item for when we come back to update the list with a character who will use it."

Right..... :rolleyes:

Tastyfish
26-07-2005, 11:51
I don't see a whole unit becomming stupid because 1 model was hit. Either it works on single model units or it affects the whole unit. Since it is magical it may as well affect the whole unit. It would make mores sense as well and make it usable. (Despite what a lot of people feel I believe there is some purpose behind GW's rules and they would not release something which is completely useless, just to fill a magic item slot ;-)
Cold one knights are stupid because half of the models are - though in combat the non stupid riders are not penalised and may fight even if their mounts are stupid.

If and ogre or minotaur is being stupid, then presumably like the knights the rest of his unit are too busy laughing, trying to help/beat sense into him.
Note of course here that it won't work against things that are immune to psychology like Ushabti

It works on whole units presumably, until the unit reachs combat or the unit suffers a casulty and the model that would have been wounded is removed.

malisteen
26-07-2005, 14:03
Units move at the slowest speed of the unit, and are affected by whatever compulsory move is in the unit. If a character on a cold one joins a unit of dark riders, then the unit has to test for stupidity at the start of every turn because even one model in the unit has that rule.

similarly, if one ogre in a unit of ogres is stupid, then the entire unit is slowed by that effect. Only that single ogre, however, suffers any disadvantages in close combat because of it.

The dragontooth arrows affect models which are succesfully wounded by them. If you wound an ogre unit, only the ogre wounded is stupid, and when that ogre dies the unit is no longer affected. If you wound a peasant unit then there is no effect, because the model which has taken the wound is no longer alive to trouble its allies with its resultant stupidity.

However, if no individual model in a unit is ever wounded, as per what the rules seem to say, then I'd have to say that dragontooth arrows have no effect, since no specific model has been wounded in order to suffer from them.

Q & A may clear this up in any number of ways, GW often uses them as a kind of errata, so the rules for Dragontooth arrows may be as much revised as clarified. Until their rules are clarified I don't intend to even consider the use of Dragontooth arrows. This isn't an arguement I fancy having in the middle of a game.

Falcon
26-07-2005, 14:57
... Until their rules are clarified I don't intend to even consider the use of Dragontooth arrows. This isn't an arguement I fancy having in the middle of a game.

Me too (on the clarification,) and, ... me too (on the argument part)