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Getifa Ubazza
03-10-2006, 19:39
Ive just finished reading Galaxy in flames and after reading all three books, im confused as to whether Horus was right to rebel against the Emperor or not.

I do think he was wrong to turn to Chaos and for what he did on Istvan 3 but whether he was wrong to rebel against the Emperor, i dont know. Remember that the Emperor told everyone that there where no Gods, even lying to those he supposedly trusted with the crusade.

What do you think?

VetSgtNamaan
03-10-2006, 20:16
I see horus as a spoiled favourite child who is given all the prestige but eventually crumbles under the pressure of trying to fill his 'Father's' shoes. Added to this is his supposed outrage over having to start answering to terran authority over the costs of everything. Pretty much he is a career soldier having trouble adjusting to what equates to the peace time military in the 40k universe though no doubt without the heresy it is unlikely they would have had anywhere near the warfare or chaos. But the Great Crusade was winding down.

Colonel Trelawney
03-10-2006, 20:31
Im with Namaan on that. I also think that his turning to chaos and rebelling are too perfectly interlinked to be seperated. The emperor was the guiding force in reuniting humanity. He brought order and civility. The chaos Gods selected the only mortal that stood any chance of deposing the Emperor, Horus, to corrupt and employ in their schemes. Betrayal is almost never right, maybe a few excepting circumstances, so no, everything Horus did was wrong

Freak Ona Leash
03-10-2006, 20:32
Horus was starting to buckle under the pressure of fufiling his father's shoes, as well as feeling betrayed that he was his father's "War dog." While Big E stayed on Terra and did his mumbo jumbo, Horus was out there in the field fighting to create the Emperor's Imperium. And of course, Erebus showing him the future, ie. The Emperor is worshipped as a god, and Horus is reviled (though Horus is not told why he is reviled. Obviously, it was because he turned traitor and he was actually shown one of the futures where he turned traitor, instead of one of the futures where he stayed loyal) He felt betrayed and what not and the Chaos Gods then basically possessed him and voila, Horus Heresy.

Scorpio
03-10-2006, 20:42
Now in the book they make it sound like the emperor wanted to be treated but in real fluff he denied being a god. I mean think about how they mention the lectio devantius(i spelled that wrong i think) It is a cult so no i dont think he was right to rebel. He though his father was going to take all the glory and chaos was the main reason he rebeled. It whispered in his ear and Erebus did his best to make him turn.

-Scorpio

Major King
03-10-2006, 20:44
This is an interesting debate that i often find myself having with myself and the guys at the GW store i work at.
Personally i think Horus has simply been shown the future by the Dark Gods. However, it is not the future that would exist had he remained loyal to the Emperor, but the future that would be created as a result of his rebellion. But Chaos being Chaos, Horus has been manipulated to believe that this is going to be the future unless something is done about it. But the future that has been shown to Horus is what the Dark Gods want to happen as it strengthens them and brings more under their sway.
So had Horus remained loyal I feel that the Imperium would have remained as it was during the Great Crusade rather than the current Medaeval existence.

Dakkagor
03-10-2006, 20:53
Horus rebelling was wrong, but it was done for the right reasons.

Horus was lied to too, and no matter how smart you are, garbage in equals garbage out. The chaos gods fed him garbage, and he could come to only one conclusion: That the emperor was making a stab for personal godhood and was going to stab half the primarchs in the back in the process, himself included. He already felt that him and his astartes would have no place in the imperium meant to follow the great crusade, and chaos played on that. He was a soldier defending his men, and his people, from an imagined tyranny.

Ironic isn't it :evilgrin:

Kegluneq
03-10-2006, 21:46
I don't think there's any denying that Horus in book 3 is not the same Horus as in book 1; corruption has had a definite impact on his decisions. Eradication of his conscience, perhaps?

Just to clarify for people confused by book 2 - there's nothing so far to indicate that the Emperor ever did want to be worshipped as a God, at least in the glory-seeking way Horus's vision seemed to predict. What Horus was told was specifically meant to be a biased view, with obvious misdirection. Horus's motives for rebelling against that vision planted the seeds of heresy, and ultimately he lost himself that day as well.

Poor Magnus :(

Chaos Lord Primus
03-10-2006, 22:17
Did he make the right decision? No, he was played like a banjo.

Did he believe he was making the right decision? Most definitely.

That's what makes him a tragic hero instead of just plain, well, evil.

Wait...

If I remember my English classes correctly, he is in fact every bit a tragic hero: doomed by character flaw, does the wrong thing for the right reason, messes up, realizes he's wrong, then dies because it's too late.

Cool.

cailus
03-10-2006, 22:25
Perhaps there was some truth in what Erebus showed him. For example the allegations that the Emperor had signed a pact with Chaos might have a degree of truth with it.

Buddha777
03-10-2006, 22:27
I see horus as a spoiled favourite child who is given all the prestige but eventually crumbles under the pressure of trying to fill his 'Father's' shoes. Added to this is his supposed outrage over having to start answering to terran authority over the costs of everything. Pretty much he is a career soldier having trouble adjusting to what equates to the peace time military in the 40k universe though no doubt without the heresy it is unlikely they would have had anywhere near the warfare or chaos. But the Great Crusade was winding down.

I think that about sums it up. A combination of unlimited power, an ego complex, and the decline of a purpose in the universe all led Horus to his fate. For those of you who have seen Gundam Wing Endless Waltz I see a similarity between Horus and Wufei. That is an inability for a warrior, or a person who knows only how to fight, to find a place in a universe that no longer needs him. It was clear that the Emperor was handing over power to a civilian government, something more befiting an age of peace, which was something Horus simply could not accept. Although the Immperium would always needs its warriors, being a lving god and still subservient mere mortals was more than his pride and ego could handle. So while I think that Horus did not have the right to rebel, I find his rebellion to be ultimitley a human flaw. Somthing that affects us all, even a being of supreme power like Horus.

BlackLegion
03-10-2006, 22:40
What i still don't get (haven't read the 3rd book) is why Horus seem to have fun killing innocent people after he turnes against the Emperor.
Chaos might influence him to be a traitor but has Chaos stipped him from his conscience too?

Melchor
03-10-2006, 22:47
I'm not sure if he actually had 'fun' killing innocents (you are refering to the killing of their enemies after they've surrendered right?). I think Horus sees killing as something to reach his goal rather than a goal in itself (unlike the World Eaters or the Emperor's Children).

Outlaw289
03-10-2006, 22:50
That is an inability for a warrior, or a person who knows only how to fight, to find a place in a universe that no longer needs him.

*cough metal gear cough*

BlackLegion
03-10-2006, 23:09
@Melchor: I refer to the incident as he blowed off the head of Emory Salignac the representand of the Auretian Technocracy. Horus smiled after the butchering of the embassadors had finished.

Hammer Of Heretics
03-10-2006, 23:26
Of course it was good he turned traitor. Its one of the best stories in the 40k world. The Emperor was equally a Chaos God. Its the power of persuasion and how you interpret it which can make somehting good or bad, such as the Great Crusade. that was just an excuse to conquer. And dont ofrget the space marines are very parochial in their thinking, and that is because the Emperor wanted it this way. It was all part of His great plan to amalgamate mankind. Horus did right to rebel, he was freeing the people from the Emperor. Although he was under the influence of just another Chaos God, but initially his intentions were for the greater good. Its a shame... oh well.

Sarge
04-10-2006, 00:01
How predictable, the only heretic here stands to speak in defence of chaos.

Simply put, the Imperium would be better off if the Emporer had backstabbed Horus, instead of waiting for him to turn than kill the deviant.

Horus was simply put, a fool, he wasn't a tradgic hero, he was a mindless butcher, at best a tool, and diserved the death he got. Now if only the Emporer had killed him in secret, than perhaps the forces of chaos would be without traitors to butcher the innocent, and would have faded out of existance.

rivers3162
04-10-2006, 00:03
The way I see it is that Horus rebelling (or at least some of the other primarchs, Angron springs to mind) was inevitable. I think Loken ponders on what would happen at the end of the crusade, what would the legions do once the crusade re-established contact with all the lost planets? If they managed that then the marines would either be surplus to requirements and so would be left to garrison and police reclaimed worlds, as often happened with the Iron warriors (which further alienated them from the Emperor). If the latter was the case then it would only be a matter of time before some Primarchs distanced themselves from the Imperium or challenged it - causing civil war and the fragmentation of the Imperium. Besides which, the theme of reclaimed worlds later rebelling against Imperial rule would also have a demoralising effect on the (already) disillusioned marines.

Also, I feel that the Emperor leaving Horus and the rest of the Primarchs uninformed as to the existence of Chaos was a major contributing factor. Knowledge is the best defence after all. I think this may be something to do with his work on the "Imperial Webway" under the Palace - if he could discover the secret of travelling between galaxies without the inherent dangers of warp travel then technically there would be no need to reveal the truth about Chaos because they would be irrelevant. Maybe this was his way of protecting his children (when the webway was completed and sealed to the warp then Chaos would not be a factor) but ironically resulted in the complete opposite.
(Just my 2 cents worth)

After reading the books, I really wish I could somehow change 40K history - putting a chainsword upside Erebus' head for starters. It's quite sad to see how much Horus changes from book 1 to 3 but thats Chaos for ya. Still gotta feel for Mortarion and Magnus, who were really forced into worshipping their respective gods. Poor Mortarion....

Commander Ozae
04-10-2006, 00:12
I think that is one of the genius things behind the Horus Heresy series. I know Isstvan III is going to be virus bombed, i know Horus will kill 3 legions at the Isstvan V Drop Site Massacre, but even so i keep hoping something will change like Loken will defeat Abbadon and turn Horus back to the good side or something.

Scorpio
04-10-2006, 00:35
@Melchor: I refer to the incident as he blowed off the head of Emory Salignac the representand of the Auretian Technocracy. Horus smiled after the butchering of the embassadors had finished.

I remember that part. I guess thats chaos in his ear. Dont forget that he views them as below him. I hate to bring up this subject but think of slavery. Thats how he felt about them. Also they have an STC and power armor but he thinks they use them the wrong way. They fight with no honor i think i remember them thinking that.

-Scorpio

Nazguire
04-10-2006, 00:39
Horus was a weapon and like all weapons he was a waste of time if he wasn't killing something. Loken basically surmises as much for the entire Astartes in Horus Rising. To make it worse, Horus wasn't able to totally understand why civilians should be running the Imperium; the Emperor went back to Terra with the purpose of forming the Imperium's governing body (also the webway :cries: ) in peace time.

Which makes sense. The Great Crusade was pretty much unstoppable, any enemies were being dealt with, about to be dealt with, or pretty much already dead. Worlds were constantly being added and the Imperium was expanding its borders immensely. It wasn't winding down just then, but was successful enough to warrant the formation of the government that would rule those worlds that were fully 'compliant'.

Horus, along with many of the other Legions, weren't fully able to understand that civilians were needed to run the Imperium in peace time. As a result, this fermented into feelings of doubt towards the Emperor, and the belief that the Astartes and Primarchs were becoming redundant and obsolete.

So, he wasn't right to rebel at all. There wasn't any need to. The Primarchs and Legions would have been needed still (look at how much they are needed now. Granted, the 'present' Imperium is completely different, but in a million worlds without any way to fully ensure compliance, worlds are sure to rebel, alien empires sure to rise in the depths of space) They would have simply needed to adapt for a bit, nothing else.

Zzarchov
04-10-2006, 00:52
Also: The Emporer was a dictator, If Horus didn't there would be no shortage of worlds trying to rebel.

Nazguire
04-10-2006, 00:59
Also: The Emporer was a dictator, If Horus didn't there would be no shortage of worlds trying to rebel.

Regardless if the Emperor was a benevolent ruler who gave everyone cookies or was a Hitler wannabe, there would still be no shortage of worlds rebelling. Being under your own sovereignty for several thousand years and then suddenly taken over by an overwhelming army doesn't stand well with anyone, no matter how nicely they go about it. In a million worlds, if even 1 percent rebelled, that still 1000 worlds in arms.

Sarge
04-10-2006, 01:02
He was a worshipped dictator, there's a difference.

Nazguire
04-10-2006, 01:10
He was a worshipped dictator, there's a difference.

Yeah, meaning the majority of the Imperium loved him (with obvious and many exceptions of course), and he still did right for the most part for the pre-Heresy Imperium. As the Inquisition War by Ian Watson explains, you have to be cruel to be kind.

Commander Ozae
04-10-2006, 01:23
He wasn't worshiped at the time except by the Lectitio Divinitatus. The Emperor was a great man who tried to forge an empire. In the beginning he needed weapons thus came the Astartes. Then he wanted to create an empire so he created the Council of Terra. The weapons didn't like that the Emperor wasn't just about conquering as well as several of them had deep-abiding grudges against him so they rebelled when Horus took the opportunity.

Scorpio
04-10-2006, 01:29
I think they mean worshipped as a hero.

-Scorpio

Sarge
04-10-2006, 01:33
Yeah, than it would spill over to fanatical devotion when they started proclaiming him to be the God-Emporer

Nazguire
04-10-2006, 01:37
Yeah, than it would spill over to fanatical devotion when they started proclaiming him to be the God-Emporer

No doubt encouraged by the start of the Inquisition. The short story in the Inquisitor rule book suggests as much.

ghost21
04-10-2006, 03:10
theres a whole load of aguments saying is chaos evil?... in a word yes but theres a but in anachy wich chaos reprisents theres fredom

but i feel that if it wasnt horus it would have been somone else .

he was born to fight geneticly programed to be a killing machine the emporer was saying stop basicaly (with the formation of the council) and the chaos gods were going cary on have a blast

horus was good shot so they took it .. but why abadon afterwards?? thats more of a question

is the emporer a god? id say no a mighty mortal prehaps, in a iron lung that psycic presence resonates in people the eclesiarcy call saints and prophets but as we know there just there to controal the millions in the imperium

if its evil to want to be free than id be evil even if that ment worshiping the chaos gods at least they have a presence rather than an afterthaught of a desicated corpse in an golden box

so id say he was wong to rebel he'd taken an oath (and unfortunatley even if i hated and despised the emporer id be able to do more damage to him by bieng loyal tahts if i was him ofc)
,and i would be moraly bound to obey that oath as should have horus

if the emporer would have given up his power to those he led then he would have truly been great and i would have followed him but all we know of him was a conquerer, and so we must judge him on sutch

Sarge
04-10-2006, 03:41
There's no such thing as freedom, it's either anarchy, or liberty. For when mankind first joined together and created civilization he sacrificed his ability to destory, to set in place a series of laws to protect the community from the destructive tendancies of the individual.

Darkhorse
04-10-2006, 11:18
In a word no, he made the wrong decision.
If you go to the temple on Davin, he reacted to the vision of the future that his own rebellion brought about. Ironic certainly, it does also bring up another question regarding the Chaos Gods, given that this vision is from the future in which Horus rebels and is defeated, is this the future that the Chaos Gods actually want? Backwards thinking maybe but the Chaos Gods are supposed to be beyond understanding.
The stark alteration in the character of Horus when he kills the Ambassador of the Autaurch Technocrasy is I feel more to do with setting in motion a train of events rather than joy at the individual act of killing the Ambassador.

Melchor
04-10-2006, 11:47
What the Chaos Gods really wanted was to stop the Emperor from reaching his goal and uniting Mankind.

Horus was just a tool in creating the Imperium as it is today. Which is probably a lot better for the Chaos Gods than the Imperium the Emperor wanted.

Nazguire
04-10-2006, 12:03
In a word no, he made the wrong decision.
If you go to the temple on Davin, he reacted to the vision of the future that his own rebellion brought about. Ironic certainly, it does also bring up another question regarding the Chaos Gods, given that this vision is from the future in which Horus rebels and is defeated, is this the future that the Chaos Gods actually want? Backwards thinking maybe but the Chaos Gods are supposed to be beyond understanding.
The stark alteration in the character of Horus when he kills the Ambassador of the Autaurch Technocrasy is I feel more to do with setting in motion a train of events rather than joy at the individual act of killing the Ambassador.

Indeed, once he realised that the Technocracy had actual working STC's, he then decided to kill them, to gain leverage with Regulus of the Mechanicum. Nothing else persuaded him to go to war with them otherwise.

ryng_sting
04-10-2006, 13:25
Horus's betrayal was understandable, which is not the same thing as justified. The Emperor, for all his talents, was not omniescent, and didn't know the turmoil his absence left in its wake. Appointing Horus as Warmaster was supposed to smooth the transition from Crusade to Kingdom. Instead, it divided the Crusaders before the Kingdom could come close to completion. The Word Bearers were working their mojo in the background to prepare Horus for his 'conversion', and from then on Horus bore the unimaginable pressure of the Chaos gods' fixation on him. I suspect most of the primarchs would have buckled under the same weight.

Regarding the vision: not even Tzeentch sees the future before it happens. As umimaginably educated as his guesses are, they are still precisely that: guesses. The Chaos gods' simply went with a few threads and put together the result for Horus to see. They could have just as easily shown him a thread resulting from an Ork-ruled future; they didn't because that would not have served their purpose. Horus had a choice, but Chaos did its best to cloud it.

Toastrider
04-10-2006, 14:08
This thread kind of links in with something I've been pondering: what if Horus was never tainted by Chaos and drawn to rebel?

Consider: In the fight with Temba on Davin, Horus isn't stabbed, instead managing to win the fight through a bit of luck and sheer skill. He finds the anathame, and the box -- and if he doesn't recognize it Loken surely will.

Ideas on how it might turn out?

--TR

Voronwe[MQ]
04-10-2006, 14:25
This is an interesting debate that i often find myself having with myself and the guys at the GW store i work at.
Personally i think Horus has simply been shown the future by the Dark Gods. However, it is not the future that would exist had he remained loyal to the Emperor, but the future that would be created as a result of his rebellion. But Chaos being Chaos, Horus has been manipulated to believe that this is going to be the future unless something is done about it. But the future that has been shown to Horus is what the Dark Gods want to happen as it strengthens them and brings more under their sway.
So had Horus remained loyal I feel that the Imperium would have remained as it was during the Great Crusade rather than the current Medaeval existence.

Alike a self-fulfilling prophecy. And it makes it that bit more tragic, as is the Emperor's relatively benevolent handling with Arihman that goes wrong due to Horus.

EDIT:
Nowadays dystopian Imperium creates soil with its intolerant politics that Chaos (and rebellion etc.) can grow in. Just like in reality (although there is no Chaos in reality, but the universe is more than gribbling mutants and insane traitors, and so is Chaos too).

jfrazell
04-10-2006, 15:06
*The Imperium was a military dictatorship.

*Like any banana republic, one of the generals-Horus-wanted to be the new top dog. So he staged a coup.

*Didn't work out so wrong decision. If it had would have been theright one. Wouldn't be much difference to your average Joe Schmo, who would continued to have been oppressed. When he rebelled instead of the Supersmurfs come to estroy his world it would be the Emperor's Children. His world would be just as dead.

Voronwe[MQ]
04-10-2006, 15:20
The Imperium was not really a military dictatorship. It parts of is, but it's far from all. A military dictatorship without relatively benevolent and skilled leadership would have been unable to keep focus on continuing to conquer instead of fighting between themselves once some space has been covered. A pure military dictatorship would not have effective enough armies, believe me. A military dictatorship would not focus so much on (relaitve) progress or rebuilding as the pre-heresy Imperium did.

So I don't think it's that simple, although it'd have been funny:D

jfrazell
04-10-2006, 17:21
1) The Emperor was the general or leader of the armies of the crusades.

2) The Emperor conquered Terra then expanded through conquest.

3) The Imperium was governed by the Emperor.

It was a military dictatorship.

Sarge
04-10-2006, 20:41
Benevolent as it was, which is far more desirable than a malevolent repubic.

Tyron
04-10-2006, 21:14
I havent read galaxy in flames yet so bare with me.

The only person to blame in my eyes is the Emperor. Going from the books the Emperor appointed Horus as the Warmaster and sets off to Terra leaving him to pick up and carry on straight away. The Emperor did not inform Horus personally of the changes to come or the new council ect instead sending mortals to relay his messages. His message was clear to Horus and that was to carry on expanding the Imperium and expecting his sons and the Astares to magically adjust to the server changes which layed ahead.

If the Emperor would have met Horus now and told him what is going on with the Imperium and what he is doing on Terra instead of being negligent to his sons and everything else none of this would of happened because Horus didnt understand what the Emperor was doing nor what he wanted apart from a unifyed Imperium.

Yes the Emperor is a dictator, there is no doubt about that. He made the Primarchs and Astartes with only one mission, to force all human worlds to comply to the Imperium and kill anything that stops it. However he never told their end game fate. You have to remember the Primarchs are natural warriors and are gods to these mere mortals and taking orders from them will never happen.

I think Horus was right to go against the Emperor. He was out there on the battlefields cutting an empire for his father while he was on Terra niglecting everyone not seeing the real picture which Horus did while the politicians on Terra were passing down laws (such as the tithes for all worlds) not having a clue worlds would rebell which Horus announced would happen if such laws were passed.

The books show;

Horus was a good man and faught for the right reasons, but it is sad that he ended up causing the future which he faught so hard to prevent.

The Emperor was a powerful idiot who didnt understand the mechanics of running an empire, not personally keeping contact with his sons, being ignorant of everyone off Terra. Not teaching his sons what legacy he wanted to create, but leaving them to be conquere and then adjust as peace keepers. And finally not keeping moral of his generals setting double stanards and giving legions to those who despise him (angron for example).

cailus
04-10-2006, 23:32
;988166']The Imperium was not really a military dictatorship. It parts of is, but it's far from all. A military dictatorship without relatively benevolent and skilled leadership would have been unable to keep focus on continuing to conquer instead of fighting between themselves once some space has been covered. A pure military dictatorship would not have effective enough armies, believe me. A military dictatorship would not focus so much on (relaitve) progress or rebuilding as the pre-heresy Imperium did.

Napoleon was a military dictator. Franco was a military dictator, Alexander the Great was a military dictator. Genghis Khan was a military dictator.

All successful in creating either powerful militaries with a drive to conquer large tracts of land, or in Franco's case take over Spain, avoid World War II, enter NATO despite being a military dictatorship with connections to the Nazis.

Success is dependent on personalities, institutions, cultural factors, economic factors, adaptability and other factors that are not simple regime types.

The Pakistani military governments of 1965 and 1971 did not fair well militarily against India, but the current Musharraf regime is doing quite well in obtaining international support as well as establishing some sort of stability.

Commander Ozae
05-10-2006, 00:58
Thank you, the Emperor is a fool. A very powerful fool, but an idiot nonetheless. The problem is that he was a god and he treated others, even the primarchs, as if he was a god. He was too arrogant.

La'mour Le Breton
05-10-2006, 02:05
does it occur to anyone that the emperor knew that horus would rebel? he probably planned the whole thing. he needed horus to kill him so he could attain godhood. simple as that. im sure someone as powerful as the emperor was planning way farther into the future than just the end of the crusade.

cailus
05-10-2006, 02:53
im sure someone as powerful as the emperor was planning way farther into the future than just the end of the crusade.


As far as I remember it did have something to do with turning humanity into a race of uber-psykers. However even people as powerful as the Emperor are prone to mistakes, miscalculations and simple delusion.

SOTIRIOS
05-10-2006, 07:34
The whole discussion shows why we like the HH fluff so much...It makes us think what we would do if we were in position of the main characters...It is a test of morality,ideology and ideals. Evolution is the means or the aim?Perfection is the means or the aim? Discipline and Obedience are the main strengths of the soldier, or innovative mind and the willingness to fight for what he believes as the right thing ?Can a conqueror bring civilization and light or is he a butcher whatever his actions? Is it right a father's actions to be questioned by a son? Is it right not to take power when you have the chance?Is it democracy the right political system for humans? What is education? Should a soldier be educated and if yes who is suitable to teach him? All of these questions and many others rise out of HH fluff and there is not one answer to each of them.It depends on your perspective of the world you live and your personal experiences...Personally I would have been besides Loken on Isstvan defending all what the Lunar Wolves stand for when the Legion started for the Great Crusade...

CELS
06-10-2006, 13:59
If I remember my English classes correctly, he is in fact every bit a tragic hero: doomed by character flaw, does the wrong thing for the right reason, messes up, realizes he's wrong, then dies because it's too late.

Cool.

It would have been cooler if GW put more emphasis on these, and in all the Primarchs (not just Horus), instead of depicting them as such greedy and self-aggrandising individuals. In the novel 'False Gods', Horus seems all too concerned about his role as the Warmaster and how he doesn't have enough power and authority. I think the author makes Horus' fall all too easy. You could argue that most was done indirectly by Chaos corrupting his mind and so forth, but that's just such a boring solution. Especially when you consider the idea that the Primarchs should probably be very well equipped to resist this kind of 'sorcery'. It would be so much more interesting if it was a sort of Gollum-situation, where the bad character (Gollum/Horus) turns against the good character (Frodo/Emperor) because of a perceived betrayal, and through no fault of either character (i.e. when Faramir's men brutally capture Gollum), or if it was like Star Wars, where Anakin actually has reasons for joining the dark side, besides the obvious corrupting powers of Palpatine.

In 'False Gods', it seems like the common Space Marines have much greater difficulties with the thought of betraying their own, than the squabbling Primarchs do.

In conclusion I'll say that Horus was right to rebel in my personal interpretation of what happened, but that as GW portrays it, he was biased by his own greed, anger and lust for glory and wrong to rebel.

Nathaniel
06-10-2006, 14:26
@ Tyron & Commander Ozae:
Wow. You two have a rather harsh opinion of the Emperor.

As far as I can see the administration a billion worlds, setting up an effective government to run said worlds & the construction of a webway might take up enough of the Emperors time. Realistically Horus & his brothers were given a job as military men to reconquer the galaxy. Heck the Emperor taught & examined all of them before giving them leadership responsibilities; you’d think that loyalty to the closest thing to a parent would mean something.

That does not make the Emperor an idiot. It only proves that Horus was deficient, not the Emperor. There is also the fact that Horus proved time & time again with the Emperor that even with given opportunities to have the Emperor disposed would not(without Chaos influence) lead to betrayal.

I think both of you greatly underestimate the colossal task the Emperor was undertaking & he quite nearly succeeded even with all 4 greater Chaos powers seeking to undo him.



That is an inability for a warrior, or a person who knows only how to fight, to find a place in a universe that no longer needs him. It was clear that the Emperor was handing over power to a civilian government, something more befiting an age of peace, which was something Horus simply could not accept. Although the Immperium would always needs its warriors, being a lving god and still subservient mere mortals was more than his pride and ego could handle. So while I think that Horus did not have the right to rebel, I find his rebellion to be ultimitley a human flaw. Somthing that affects us all, even a being of supreme power like Horus.

I agree. It simply comes down to hubris. Unlike many of his brothers, Horus falls under temptation & his own pride. We see all seven deadly sins reflected in their fall, Horus was just the only one unlucky enough to be the right hand man of the Emperor & therefore had the best opportunity for betrayal.

[QUOTE=rivers3162;987043]Also, I feel that the Emperor leaving Horus and the rest of the Primarchs uninformed as to the existence of Chaos was a major contributing factor. Knowledge is the best defence after all. I think this may be something to do with his work on the "Imperial Webway" under the Palace - if he could discover the secret of travelling between galaxies without the inherent dangers of warp travel then technically there would be no need to reveal the truth about Chaos because they would be irrelevant. Maybe this was his way of protecting his children (when the webway was completed and sealed to the warp then Chaos would not be a factor) but ironically resulted in the complete opposite.
QUOTE]

Well we don’t know everything about the warp & we’re privy to much more than the Emperor was at the time. For all he knew they weren’t so powerful. If he did know what the Chaos gods could do then it is most probable that telling people was with good reason. What if no working knowledge of Chaos along with not being a psyker increased the energy needed to influence/corrupt/tempt people? Maybe there were natural psychic barriers in the minds of the Primarches that were less effective when they knew about Chaos but had not experienced it’s horrors first hand?