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malika
28-06-2005, 15:07
Okay, I know that in the old background Space Marines used camoflage, but nowadays with the whole "holy knight" feel they tend to move away from that. However Imperial Armour shows pictures of vehicles with camoflage. So do Space Marines still use camoflage?

Then something that bugs me...look at this picture:
http://sakhet.rsc.pl/articles/283.jpg

See the Land Raider with a camoflage colourscheme...it belongs to the Red Scorpions, however...the Red Scorpions were a very anti camo chapter, refusing to fight alongside units using camo (old background)...so what's up with this camo Land Raider?

boogle
28-06-2005, 15:13
hmm, looks like FW are human after all

malika
28-06-2005, 15:55
But do Space Marines still use camo?

boogle
28-06-2005, 15:59
yes, the Raptors chapter (Yellow and Blue), changed the armour colour to Green for jungle sweeps during the 3rd Armageddon War

Berynius
28-06-2005, 16:00
No... that is no mistake, at least not if you look at the older background marterial.

In the old Warhammer 40.000 Compendium, there is picture of a Land Raider belonging to The Red Scorpions, the Land Raider has a Codex approved cobalt/ammonium desert camouflage (from the Galen V suspression).

And in the section covering the Badab War you can see a Red Scorpion marine, with an alternativ paint scheme, from a Pursuit Squad (what ever that is), Angstrom Incident.

So it is not that the Red Scorpions hate camo, but it is that they follow the Codex Astartes as ridgetly as the Ultramarines, perhaps even more, and that the Codex lay down vey strict rule abut the use of camouflage, and the Red Scorpions only use it with in those rules.

Inquisitor Samos
28-06-2005, 16:05
Berynius nailed it right in the center-gold, Citizens. It's just that much of the newer-published materials don't address this facet of the background.

charlie_c67
28-06-2005, 16:21
yes, the Raptors chapter (Yellow and Blue), changed the armour colour to Green for jungle sweeps during the 3rd Armageddon War
Thought the change was a result of the Jemdal (sp?) incident?

athamas
28-06-2005, 16:24
i think it depends on the mission being carried out,

most of the time marines dont use camo, however, if a small amount of stealth is required, or there are large things that need to be avoided, they will use camo

for example, a bright red land raider is really easy to see from high up, and thus the tank is vunerable to space/bomber attack, however if a stable battle line, this is not a problem, as the enemy know where ther lines are drawn, but when behind enemy lines, its advisable to to get struck by lance bateries!

sulla
28-06-2005, 18:52
I imagine camoflage would be in favour in those chapters that favour infiltrating their tactical and veteran squads.

boogle
28-06-2005, 18:56
most SM scouts use camo

PKAGustov
28-06-2005, 21:26
Well here I thought that SMs had gone totally away from "the colors of cowardice". Good to see it back.

inquisitorautry
30-06-2005, 04:42
The times that marines want to be seen, usually in fast raids against strategic objectives, or just want to scare the crap out of their opponents they stick to their chapter colors. When it becomes necessary to be sneaky, for whatever reason, they break out the camo. The idea of a camoed SM army has always intrigued me, but I have way too much to paint already.

Emperor's Light
30-06-2005, 08:18
Is that Land Raider actually in camo? I thought Red Scorpions painted their armor green (oddly enough.)

Castigator
30-06-2005, 08:23
When it becomes necessary to be sneaky, for whatever reason, they break out the camo. The idea of a camoed SM army has always intrigued me, but I have way too much to paint already.



Well, the problem is that good camo is pretty much the opposite of a good mini.

Camo blurs and breaks up the outline, hides details in the color scheme, blends in the with the background, etc...

While individual minis might look nice close up, a real-camo-painted army just won't be very impressive to look at on the table.

(yeah I know there's ways to get around that, but since Space-Marines are still very often the "Beginners Army", it makes sense to keep the painting easy aswell.)

Emperor's Light
30-06-2005, 09:02
IG works well with camo, but I think that's because an IG models is not covered in it. The armor might be in camo but the uniform underneath is in khaki or something. Then there's the exposed face, hands, etc.

A helmeted Space Marine would be covered in it.

There are a few examples of camo beakies from 1st ed....they don't fit into what is now the GW painting style...very heavy highlighting, etc.

Puffin Magician
30-06-2005, 12:46
Is that Land Raider actually in camo?
No, it's not. I know this because I own Imperial Armour Volume Two. The Red Scorpions Land Raider is indeed painted in their Chapter scheme.

The only Chapters in the book that have camouflaged vehicles are the Raptors [Rhino, Damocles, Sentry Gun], Executioners [Predator], Emperor's Warbringers [Land Raider], and Revilers [Drop Pod].

As Berynius so eloquently said, all Chapters have situations where they will use camouflage, just some much more or much less than others.

I'm surprised the Raven Guard doesn't have a camo scheme [if only to have something other than a boring black scheme] as it fits well with Shrike's style.

marineowar
30-06-2005, 13:14
I'm surprised the Raven Guard doesn't have a camo scheme [if only to have something other than a boring black scheme] as it fits well with Shrike's style.


The Raven Guard more than likely do have a camo scheme. But it's more impresive to have black on the whole army than blobs of undistinguishible blobs of colour. Sells the army better.

EVIL INC
30-06-2005, 13:18
I was actually surprised to see an ultra marine land raider in that pic with camo.
The way I understood it was that those who follow the "rules" strictly do not use camo unless in very extreme circumstance and then they felt bad about it.
Scouts get away with it because they are not yet fully fledged marines.
It is a matter of gw changing the fluff from time to time. it messes with us old timers.

malika
30-06-2005, 13:23
No, it's not. I know this because I own Imperial Armour Volume Two. The Red Scorpions Land Raider is indeed painted in their Chapter scheme
Does this mean that GW has changed the colourscheme of the Red Scorpions?

Puffin Magician
30-06-2005, 13:36
But it's more impresive to have black on the whole army than blobs of undistinguishible blobs of colour. Sells the army better.
IG armies sell well with the "paint us in camouflage!" thing going on. It'd be a nice change for the Astartes, and there are already too damn many black Marine armies already.


I was actually surprised to see an ultra marine land raider in that pic with camo.

I don't think it's using camouflage, it's just... grey. Might have something to do with it being a MkII Land Raider, although the entry does say it fought on Ichar IV which is a Hive World [despite the entry not saying it's in camo].


Does this mean that GW has changed the colour scheme of the Red Scorpions?
I suppose so, the entry doesn't say it's in camo but it doesn't say "in their Chapter colours" either. Although they're using the same colours as their shoulder pad [green & red], and there are too damn many red Marine armies too. Interestingly enough, there's a Dark Angels Land Raider in IA2 that is the opposite of this pattern [mostly bone w/ dark green at the front and rear].

Castigator
30-06-2005, 14:21
IG works well with camo, but I think that's because an IG models is not covered in it. The armor might be in camo but the uniform underneath is in khaki or something. Then there's the exposed face, hands, etc.


Well.. I see alot of IG armies where the Infantry Modells are pretty unrecongnizable, being mostly odd-colored blobs of metal or plastic, that lack distinction if held at arms lenght or viewed at less than ideal light.

Don't get me wrong..
There certainly are superbly painted IG Armies out there too, and they do indeed look great.
But for the "average painter", Space Marines tend to come out alot better on the Battle Field IMO.

gunhed
01-07-2005, 16:24
I can see the need for a good camo scheme, but I'm finding it hard to picture a SM in full power armour carrying a whirring Chain Sword and a bolter bigger than some IG rocket launchers sneaking through the countryside/landscape whilst being stealthy.

That's what the Scouts are for isn't it? Space Marines are all about making a statement. A bloody huge and powerful statement at that.

malika
01-07-2005, 16:40
Well....they still need camo, I mean look at US tanks in the desert. They have camo too, so that their enemies in the far distance will have a harder time really seeing them.

Lord-Warlock
01-07-2005, 16:52
IIRC, the Raptors are a Raven Guard Successor Chapter. Chapters of that lineage would, IMHO, be more likely to use camo.

When it comes to tanks, Marines are, after all, Marines: very stubborn, very proud and very heavy-handed. Gunhed has it right - they probably go "damn the enemy's heavy weaponry, for faith shall prevail!". Camoflague is sane in human terms - Marines, being brought up to kill from age ten, think completely differently. Besides, Marine tanks are probably designed to be seen. How can you scare the feth out of the enemy if he can't see you? ;)

malika
01-07-2005, 16:58
I dont think the Rhino is such a fearful sight...it's a very common vehicle in the Imperium.

gunhed
01-07-2005, 17:05
It'd be damn scary if it was full of blood crazed Space Marines out to "Make A Statement" though wouldn't it?

malika
01-07-2005, 17:13
Well if you are in a far distance and see this bright yellow thing in a grey landscape you will just fire everything you've got at it.

Lord-Warlock
01-07-2005, 17:18
Also remember it isn't used by the Guard. So if you see a Rhino it's either

I. Full of angry Battle Sisters or Arbitrators. Run.

II. Full of angry Inquisitorial personnel. Run.

III. Full of angry Space Marines. Runrunrun!

Now, you never know which one. Thus bringing a Rhino to the field might just be something of a terror weapon - it's never just a 50 point APC, it's a 50 point APC which leaves plenty of points to be spent on the nastiness inside...

gunhed
01-07-2005, 17:20
Well if you are in a far distance and see this bright yellow thing in a grey landscape you will just fire everything you've got at it.

Faith in the Emperor is all the armour a Space marine needs ;)

malika
01-07-2005, 17:25
The Rhino is also used by the Imperial Guard, eventhough the rules dont reflect this. You have to remember that the rules and the background dont mix.

But like I said you see a big yellow thing shining in the landscape, you just shoot everything you got at it!

WLBjork
02-07-2005, 14:55
Marines are not, contrary to popular opinion, thick.

They will change their colour scheme if it is likely to lead to heavy losses. Sometimes this just requires a basic reversal of the usual colour scheme. Another time it may be more involved.

However, if they think that they can get away without changing the base scheme they will not change it.

malika
02-07-2005, 15:05
IIRC the Codex Astartes had all sorts of dogmes on colour changes.

Captain Cortez
03-07-2005, 02:48
To be anoust I think the only Space Marine Chaptor to have a Camo color scheme since the first ed, is the Executioners. Look at Badab, and the miniture cataloge.

I believe the Executioners are more of a recon Marine army though.

Thought I'd mention this.