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Grunge
04-10-2006, 16:02
Well I read many stories so far.I heard Hashut was a former greater deamon who got his ass kicked by Khorne and got threwn into a vault where eventually some dwarfs dig him out and thought "Hey you're cool lets worship you"(if this is true why did him and Khorne fought?), and I also heard he was not a real God but just some kind of Chaos Dwarf Idol.I'd like to hear your opinions.Cheers in advance!

Lord-Warlock
04-10-2006, 16:08
I'm guessing he's a Lesser Chaos God along the lines of the Horned Rat - a "mix" of the Big Four, if you will. In his case, probably Khorne (Dwarfified into the rock-hard disciplined butcher thing they got going on), Tzeentch (magic) and just a drop of Slaanesh (with the whole sadistic slaver thing going on). The only Nurgleite thing I can see is the Curse of Stone.

I am aware of the former greater daemon thing, but I was under the impression it had been left behind by the roadside, along with the Zoats and Fimir and Orc females.

- LoW

HalfEvil333
05-10-2006, 08:18
5th Edition made him into a minor Chaos God worshipped by the Chaos Dwarfs. The current facts on him are he's called the Father of Darkness, the only diety that the Chaos Dwarfs worship, and bulls are his signature animal.

I don't know much about him pre-5th.

Rathgar
05-10-2006, 08:54
He’s the god of Dark Industry; progress gone mad.

One of the things you must remember about Chaos is that it essentially mirrors humanity (and indeed the other sentient races), but the mirror caricatures, exaggerates and distorts everything. With the four major Chaotic powers this is fairly obvious, as they encompass spheres of emotion. To my mind there’s a ‘lesser tier’ of Chaos gods which are arguably more sophisticated: The Horned Rat and Hashut, there gods of sociological phenomenon and concepts civilisation has constructed. Now, I’m not suggesting that these factors don’t fall under the sway of the four, clearly they do but our demonic quartet are very much dominated by the core emotions that make up their beings.

But the Horned Rat and Hashut are gods of specific races you say? Not so. They are chaos gods, theireinfluence is much less specific than that of say Esmeralda. The Horned Rat is the god of politicking, lies, power and selfishness. These traits are universal, and so all races feed him in some way. The Skaven are arguably the spawn of proto-Horned Rat and thusly typify all these things.

Races that Chaos has shaped are a critique on certain aspects of humanity.

Hashut is slightly more tricky. He must have existed in some form before the fall of a certain group of dwarfs. I think that proto-Hashut would have been an amalgamation of firstly logic’s uncaring a sinister edge, secondly the will to subjugate nature and further more to oppose one's will over other things. I mean that in the broadest sense possible, its easy to see it when its manifest as the enslavement and subjugation of sentient creatures, but also such benign enterprises as agriculture; livestock were once wild beast that have been dominated and moulded by human will, so that they’re nothing more than tools and resources. Carving a sculpture: you’re destroying say a piece of marble, and imposing your own image of what it should look like.

Now, these concepts in themselves are probably not enough to attain true godhood, hence I termed this being proto-Hashut. The Chaos Dwarves acted as a catalyst. Dwarf personality has a great exaggeration of the traits I described in the above paragraph, Proto-Hashut had a natural affinity for them. Thus; their despair, sorrow and hope provided the spark of his ascension.

Grunge
05-10-2006, 12:17
I can see your point,thanks for your wise words. There are many lesser Gods then? And is it true or not Hashut had that episode with Khorne? Anyone has any info on that?

Jedi152
05-10-2006, 12:19
On a tangent, how do people pronounce Hashut? Hah-Shut, or Hah-Shoot?

Grunge
05-10-2006, 12:21
I always have heard/said Ha-Shoot!

Revlid
05-10-2006, 13:32
Hah-shoot for me as well.

Also, I'd have to say that Hashut is probably as much a Chaos God as the Horned Rat, and therefore Chaos Dwarfs probably shouldn't be considered Chaos Worshippers in the true sense of the word.

And I agree with everything Rathgar has said, you eloquent lump of blue putty, you.

wolf99
05-10-2006, 14:55
Am I alone in making the final vowel a 'mumble vowel' or neutral vowel sound (one that doesn't really get said distinctly at all) then?

unwanted
05-10-2006, 15:20
Great description by Rathgar, I wholeheartedly concur.

As for pronunciation, I'm leaning towards Hash-shut myself...

Wu Ming
05-10-2006, 16:21
Hahsh'uht
(Haa)(Sh)(uht)

Arnizipal
05-10-2006, 19:37
I can see your point,thanks for your wise words. There are many lesser Gods then? And is it true or not Hashut had that episode with Khorne? Anyone has any info on that?
It's a piece of fan-fic.
No official mention was ever made of Hashut offending Khorne, let alone being a former servant of him.

vampires are cool!
05-10-2006, 19:57
i was under the impression that hashut was one of the dwarf gods. when a clan was exploring and fighting their way through the goblin mines of the dark lands - trying to procure new land me thinks - something went arry, they were trapped and when their prayers went unanswered they began praying to hashut...
dont quote me on this as i can only remember this from far away and long ago, but ask eldicar as he seems to know everything about the fluff

Morskittar
05-10-2006, 19:58
I've always followed an idea similar to Rathgar's: Hashut is a Chaotic manifestation of industry and uncaring technological advancement, "fuelled" as it were by the four base Chaotic entities. A sort focused expression of the great gods through the lens of industry.

Similarly, I'd say the Horned Rat is the same, but focused through the lens of urban sprawl/growth/decay. The Rat Race personified.

Wings of Doom
07-10-2006, 12:43
Hashut.
(Has)(hut)
Has-hut.
Everyone should have a hut :p

Rathgar
07-10-2006, 13:07
I've always followed an idea similar to Rathgar's: Hashut is a Chaotic manifestation of industry and uncaring technological advancement, "fuelled" as it were by the four base Chaotic entities. A sort focused expression of the great gods through the lens of industry.

You've made me think of a tangent, but Iíll head down it anyway; The existence of these two Ďsociologicalí Chaos gods leads me to question if there are more. Off the top of my head I canít really think of any aspects of civilization that can be represented so powerfully, but Iím sure a wiser man than I could come up with some good stuff.

Even more obscurely; it could potentially act as a mechanism to resurrect the Fimir. Theyíre a race shaped by Chaos just as much as the Rat Men or the Fire Dwarfs. Adapt one of their gods to fill a niche similar to Hashut and Horned Rat and not only have you reinvigorated the concept of the mist daemons, youíve intelligently integrated them into the background.

MacVurrich
07-10-2006, 13:08
Hashut.
(Has)(hut)
Has-hut.
Everyone should have a hut :p

Chaos Dwarfs
Warhammer old world pizza deliver (hut)



Sorry couldn't resisit it


There's never been an offical background story on Hashut though there is a possibilty of tht being changed in the future

Sarevok
07-10-2006, 16:43
I think he is a mix of Khorne and Tzeentch

Wu Ming
07-10-2006, 19:59
There are numerous Chaos daemons and entities eveything does not boil down to being '2/3 Khorne 1/3 Slaanesh' ect. The major four are simply that, the four MAJOR gods, not the sole gods.

Grunge
07-10-2006, 21:00
So Gork and Mork are chaos gods too?

Sarevok
07-10-2006, 21:10
That's what gav said

Do you want the 'real' answer, on the answer as perceived by an educated inhabitant of the Warhammer world.

In real terms, as described in Hordes of Chaos, all gods are but aspects of the four Great Powers. Think of four overlapping circles within a larger circle. The large circle is Chaos, or what we refer to in the rules as Chaos Undivided. Within that are the four Great Powers. Where they overlap, there are concurrent and conflicting entities which bear portions of the vague consciousness of the Great Powers. Any lesser god will be a dot or smaller circle overlapping the diagram across the relevant Greater Powers. The example of the Horned Rat is a good one, as it is obviously dominated by Nurgle, but does have elements of Tzeentch in there as well.

If you are talking about perceptions of the inhabitants, then they are unaware of the above (or driven mad by it if they find out!). They are aware that there is a large pantheon of gods, includig the four Great Powers. To them, each is distinct, although some may have different names for the same gods – for example, the marauder peoples have many different names for the Great Powers, and some may even have several names for the same Great Power.

GAV

Wu Ming
08-10-2006, 04:22
That may all be well and good for most, but as regards such things in the 'Warhammer World' Mr. Thorpe is not the end all and be all of things, especially regarding this subject matter for that I would dare say the words of Rick Priestly, Bryan Ansell, Mike Brunton & Simon Forrest bear more weight.


The Four Great Powers represent the four largest and most powerful of these... entities.

Other Chaos Powers sometimes achieve temporary consciousness... who will perhaps one day awake to full awareness.

There are also daemons which owe nothing to these [Four Great] Chaos Powers, and whose existence reflects the waking dreams of a still immature Power. ...Other daemons owe nothing to any power.


There are powers that are born of The Warp in the Realm of Chaos but are not from, nor parts of the Four Great Powers. This has been clearly stated and defined in the past, whether in hopes of simplifying things for the beardlings this has been changed is another matter, but I personally adhere to the earlier more defined and detailed background. If you have Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned I recommend you read the section on Lesser Chaos Powers it starts on p.86 which will explain in detail this particular aspect of Chaos.

Morskittar
08-10-2006, 08:24
Good call, Wu Ming. I believe Realms of Chaos would back this up, to an extent.

That being said, Hashut and the Horned Rat do seem pretty clearly linked to the big four. Malal/Bel'akor, etc... do not.

RobC
08-10-2006, 10:27
I wouldn't be surprised if Gav's statement about the nature of the gods comes direct from Rick.

All gods are borne of Chaos, but not all gods are Chaos gods. With me so far? no? Sigh...

The warp is a parallel dimension to our own, where our emotions are manifest. The strongest, most primal emotions are reflected in the warp as being the strongest, most uncontrollable and dangerous gods: the Chaos gods.

The Chaos gods cover the four strongest human emotions: rage, desire, despair and hope. All other emotions are, in a way, subsets of these basics, and thus lack the potency of one of the other powers on its own.

When Gav states that all gods are subsets of the big four spheres, he doesn't mean that all other gods are false and only the big four are real. Gods are not discrete beings like we are; there is a blur between spheres of influence. A very good example of this is where Khaine and Khorne meet. Clearly, Khaine is a more focused part of the sphere of emotions that fuels Khorne. Khaine is both distinct and part of Khorne, and also considerably less powerful because of his specialisation.

The Chaos gods are Chaotic because they represent the uncontrollable emotions we all suffer from. They are whimsical, unpredictable and self-destructive, things you'd all expect if they are an allegory for human nature. Because they draw from the largest 'pot of power', they are able to draw in smaller warp vortices, the minor daemons, and use them as their servants.

The other gods, like Khaine, are founded on weaker, more complex emotions and concepts, and thus have less clout. Because they are more focused, they are also less Chaotic. The lesser gods are still whimsical and unpredictable, but they generally don't manifest mutations in their worshippers and lob daemons into the material world.

Remember that the inhabitants of the Old World can choose who they worship, but they have little to no control over where their emotional baggage goes. An example: a soldier from Middenheim manages to defeat an enemy in single combat. The rush of anger, of rage that goes through him will benefit Khorne primarily. The Middenheimer may have been acting in the name of Ulric, and so a tiny proportion of that emotion will go to Ulric, but the Chaos gods always get the biggest portion. If, say, the Middenheimer was more devout and gave thanks to Ulric after the battle, then perhaps slightly more power would go to Ulric, but only a little. Khorne would still get the lion's share.

This is why the Chaos gods are so powerful: they gain from almost every emotional 'event' that takes place. They are these emotions, if you like.

Race-specific gods: I would argue that race-specific gods of similar spheres of influence (for example, Mathlann and Manann) merely represent different aspects of the same vortex in the warp. Imagine a god with a split personality and you might understand what I mean.

Gork, Mork and the Horned Rat are perceived as being race-specific gods, but only so far as they have a particularly focused base of worship. The Horned Rat's vortex overlaps that of Nurgle and Tzeentch as mentioned, hence its personality being a mixture of the two. The Horned Rat is also quite primal and its worshippers are borne of Chaos, hence the increased Chaotic nature. Gork and Mork seem a slightly special case in that greenskins somehow interact differently with the warp. Sure, their vortices still overlap with that of the big four (and no doubt the other lesser gods), but the greenskin gods somehow manage to remain slightly more distinct for some reason.

The key point in the above is that the gods are not discrete entities. This is why they are both part of one another and distinct from one another. And also why Chaos is infinitely more powerful than all the other gods.

Wu Ming
08-10-2006, 10:54
This is a debate that's old almost as the game itself, I've read through reams of this on the ol WFRP Mail List. It's not that I am unable to comprhend this point of view regarding Chaos, Warhammer World, The Warp and The Gods I just don't agree. Further more this goes beyond, 'Well yeah mate I know that Khorne doesn't grant his followers magic, but in my Warhammer World he does!' I am not basing my opinon on what I want the Warhammer world/universe to be like but how I see it to be based on the information which I have at my disposal.

The concept that all Gods are aspects of Chaos (meanng the 'main four') doesn't jive with material on that very subject. Read both Realms of Chaos Books, it states clearly information to the contray of that very stance. What I find ironic is that there is a clear stament in the RoC books that alude to all Gods being of/from Chaos but I never hear people citing that passage which postiulates that 'some scholars' believe that all gods, meaning Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Nurgle, as well as all the Law Gods, Horned One et al. are ONE single entiy. Very much like the hindu concept of
poly-monotheism. So if the aurgemnt were to be that All Gods are realy one God, then yes I'll buy that one, but the whole 'The Major Four' encompasse all drek, no thanks.

Revlid
08-10-2006, 11:19
I never hear people citing that passage which postiulates that 'some scholars' believe that all gods, meaning Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Nurgle, as well as all the Law Gods, Horned One et al. are ONE single entiy. Very much like the hindu concept of
poly-monotheism. So if the aurgemnt were to be that All Gods are realy one God, then yes I'll buy that one, but the whole 'The Major Four' encompasse all drek, no thanks.

I believe you are referring to the belief by some followers of Chaos Undivided that it is in fact a huge entity that the other gods are aspects of, rather than simply a unification of the Big Four.

Think of any emotion. That emotion can be attributed to any one (or more) of the Chaos Gods. However, while Vengenance would come under Khorne's area of influence, it would be more specifically attributed to Khaine, who is in the same sphere of influence but not as big.

Grunge
08-10-2006, 11:35
And what about the "good" Gods? They're manisfestations of Chaos Gods too?

I can't really agree on Mork and Gork beeing true choas gods, they are too different.

Also couldnt Hashut and some other "lesser" gods be seen as a powerfull living Chaos twisted beings who somehow had people worship them as gods?Hope you can see my point here.

RobC
08-10-2006, 11:42
Did anyone actually read my post? Judging from the last few replies, I suspect not.

All gods are borne of Chaos but not all gods are Chaotic. It's remarkably simple.

Hellebore
08-10-2006, 12:52
Yes, as RobC says, there is a difference between Chaos(TM) the TITLE, and chaos the action.

The Chaos(TM) gods are CHAOTIC, and are borne of Chaos(TM), whilst the other gods are NOT chaotic, and are borne of Chaos(TM).

Hellebore

Arnizipal
08-10-2006, 13:11
For those that have some time to read it, here's (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9535) an interesting link.

But be warned: it's a long and heavy thread.

Revlid
08-10-2006, 13:20
All Gods are from the Realm of Chaos. Not all of them are nescessarily Chaotic.

Just as there are two definitions of Chaos there are two definitions of Daemon. A Daemon is essentially any entity that resides in the Realm of Chaos, a "Warp Entity" if you will. Gods are, in this sense, simply big daemons, and daemons are simply small gods. Really small gods. Each Bloodletter in your Daemonic Legion represents a subtly different type of rage and anger and war. Each Plaguebearer exhibits signs of different despair and disease. Because they are the gods of those emotions, subservient to the overall ruler of that particular emotion (as they are so weak).
Hence why you have Daemons of differing power. Changers of Ways are Horrors who have a larger area of influence, etc.
However, when you try to explain this to most people, you get a reaction amounting to "omg Sigmar isnt no Bloodletar!".

Grimstonefire
08-10-2006, 20:33
Off on a tangent, but having read through quite a few things here I am wondering; Do the emotions of daemons also 'feed' their god? If they are emotions in another gods' 'camp', do they feed that god partly as well?

Perhaps too deep, but I am curious what people think.

Wu Ming
08-10-2006, 22:48
Did anyone actually read my post? Judging from the last few replies, I suspect not.

All gods are borne of Chaos but not all gods are Chaotic. It's remarkably simple.

I read you post RobC; to clarify do you mean all Gods are born of the Warp but not all Gods are chaotic? That's a bit more concise and would help people in understading what you mean. I agree all gods are born of aethyr/warp.

Side Bar/Tangent: I am no longer sure on how official the following is but I was under the understading that at one time (in the history of the game) the 'Old World Gods' Starting with Rhya through all her decendents Shallya I believe being the youngest, were 'native Gods' they exsited prior to the coming of the Old Ones and the Warp Rifts, and that the Gods of 'law and chaos' were non-native and all came from the Warp; with Sigmar and Ranald and the like being Greater Daemon Princes, ascending via and dwelling in the Warp.

Wu Ming
08-10-2006, 22:59
I believe you are referring to the belief by some followers of Chaos Undivided that it is in fact a huge entity that the other gods are aspects of, rather than simply a unification of the Big Four.


I am actually refering to page 14 of Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness


...Others say that all of the aparently diverse gods of Chaos are no more than diffrent aspects and manifestations of one being: ...

But of greater importence and I daresay relevence to this current discourse is the following:


The true nature of the gods of Chaos is beyond any comprehnsion. No mere mortal can ever hope to understand these matters, ...

;)

A neutral shade of black.
08-10-2006, 23:37
You've made me think of a tangent, but Iíll head down it anyway; The existence of these two Ďsociologicalí Chaos gods leads me to question if there are more. Off the top of my head I canít really think of any aspects of civilization that can be represented so powerfully, but Iím sure a wiser man than I could come up with some good stuff.

Malal is, essentially, a sociological god - he's the quintessential human tendency to self-destruct. Not really an emotion.


So Gork and Mork are chaos gods too?

All human gods are demons who were smart enough to draw worshippers in. This includes Sigmar, the patron god of Middenheim whose name currently escapes me and all the gods worshipped by Chaos, as well as the versions of the elven gods worshipped by humans (who aren't elven gods at all), but not the elven gods or the Lady (who happens to also be elven). I couldn't tell you for sure about any other race, though.

As for the emotions of daemons, they have none - they are a single emotion pushed to its paroxism and given physical form.

An addendum that needs to be made to RobC's post: Khaine and Khorne's influence can't blur because of the way elven and human psyches are constructed; they're vastly different in the way they work, thus the elven Khaine (not the one worshipped by humans, who is merely another one of Khorne's personalities) has little to do with Khorne. The same may be true of other race-specific gods; it all depends on the psychich make-up of the races that worship them (i.e., how close said psychic make-up is to the human psyche's construction).

Grunge
08-10-2006, 23:41
If what RobC says is true then shouldnt the greenskins fuel Khorne's vortex? It's just that Gork and Mork are really different from the other Gods, in my opinion.

two tangents: Is the sphere of influence supposed to level itself? Kinda like the "balance between good and evil so that the world doesnt implode"? I hope you get my meaning I find it hard to word what i was trying to say :(

Also the purposes and objectives of the gods are solely to gather worshippers to fuel them?

Wu Ming
08-10-2006, 23:51
What RobC is saying is a truth so to speak. However previous cannon suports the idea that there are Gods indpendent of the Shadow Selves and collected conciounesses which comprise the FOur Major Powers, so yes 'offically' it would be safe to say that Gork and Mork are not aspects of Khorne or any other diety and are independent deamons/gods in their own right.

Sarevok
09-10-2006, 00:04
If what RobC says is true then shouldnt the greenskins fuel Khorne's vortex? It's just that Gork and Mork are really different from the other Gods, in my opinion.


yeah, and why would the Old Ones create such a race if it would fuel Khorne so much? (this goes double for 40k)

Grunge
12-10-2006, 17:02
Actually, maybe orcs dont feel hatred or rage or anything else but sheer joy. Wich means they will fuel anyone else so its a vicious circle again! Gork and Mork must work different :wtf:

A neutral shade of black.
12-10-2006, 17:19
An addendum that needs to be made to RobC's post: Khaine and Khorne's influence can't blur because of the way elven and human psyches are constructed; they're vastly different in the way they work, thus the elven Khaine (not the one worshipped by humans, who is merely another one of Khorne's personalities) has little to do with Khorne. The same may be true of other race-specific gods; it all depends on the psychich make-up of the races that worship them (i.e., how close said psychic make-up is to the human psyche's construction).

Reading, ja?

Gekiganger
12-10-2006, 17:37
'offically' it would be safe to say that Gork and Mork are not aspects of Khorne or any other diety and are independent deamons/gods in their own right.

Is there any proof that Gork 'n' Mork really exist? There's Waaagh! magic I know and the orcs worship gork 'n' Mork but have they ever been clarified as existing or do they ''exist'' in the same way as our god? Not having any proof but the Orcs mind being too small for doubt unlike ours. Sigmar and the big 4 have direct aspects portrayed in the warhammer world, can't remember gork 'n' mork ever having that.

Voltaire
12-10-2006, 17:41
Gorks foot comes down to hit people, as does his fists, that must stand for something surely...

Gekiganger
12-10-2006, 17:51
Only if you count the description of the spell as what actually happens.

I've always believed that Gork n Mork were proper gods in the same respect as the other warhammer world ones but this is just a spur of the moment thought that I want dispelling.

Revlid
12-10-2006, 17:59
All human gods are demons who were smart enough to draw worshippers in. This includes Sigmar, the patron god of Middenheim whose name currently escapes me and all the gods worshipped by Chaos, as well as the versions of the elven gods worshipped by humans (who aren't elven gods at all), but not the elven gods or the Lady (who happens to also be elven). I couldn't tell you for sure about any other race, though.


Not quite true. Although Sigmar the god (along with Ulric, Morr, Shalyaa, etc.) is most certainly a daemon, he is only a daemon in the sense of "Warp Entity". Gods are defined by their worshipper's beliefs, therefore Sigmar is a powerful warrior with long blonde hair and bulging muscles who stands for hope and truth and the good of mankind; it doesn't matter what he looked like in real life, or whether the daemon in question was previously the sun god of some Khandish tribe.

And its not like the daemon in question is actually malevolent, snickering behind the backs of its priests as it plays the Empire like puppets. It truly believes in what it is doing, that it is Sigmar, and it will fight for the good of the Empire. Because, like a lump of putty, it has been moulded by the beliefs of its followers.

Indeed, possibly the only civilised gods who actually act like their kind rather than some unreachable ideal are the dwarfen Ancestor Gods, due to the realist dwarfish mindset.

And while the Lady of the Lake is likely still alive (being an immortal fey) there is still going to be a warp entity called the Lady of the Lake who embodies everything the Brettonians worship her for.

The Great Maw is odd in that it has not the slightest semblance of the race that worships it, instead taking the form of a symbol that has scorched itself onto the Ogre racial memory, perhaps reflecting their tribal and primitive ways. After all, they have been known to worship human (and other) gods depending on what they want or have been influenced by, but much like the semi-civilised appearance of Maneaters, this veneer of culture is swiftly scratched away to reveal the brutish worship of the Great Maw that is in their very nature.

Gork and Mork... They're Greenskins. They don't need a reason.

NakedFisherman
12-10-2006, 18:45
Because, like a lump of putty, it has been moulded by the beliefs of its followers.

Which is quite silly and puerile, I think.

The thought of seemingly-omnipotent beings being carved from the cognation of ignorant mortals was something I thought up when I was a child playing with my Legos (honestly). It's so righteous and empowering of lesser beings; it fit well with my own situation at the time, which is likely why I thought it up as background material for my Lego adventures. I was quite surprised to see my childhood daydreams resurface. :D

The whole idea of omnipotent gods and goddesses being carved from the collective cognation of ignorant mortals is contradictory. They control the world, toy with time and space, yet they crumble at the beck of humanity. In this manner, it seems Sigmar was more divine during his life than after his death.

No, gods are powerful. They are almighty and boundless. They are not heavenly electorates of the people's will. The masses do not vote with their thoughts on the shape of Sigmar's left bicep any moreso than they control the scheming of Tzeentch. They are Sigmar and Tzeentch, and they are gods -- no mortals can alter them.





...


I would like to know where the quoted material is stated, because I can't find it anywhere besides this forum.

Sentinel75
12-10-2006, 19:49
I agree with Revlid: and stands to reason that the Green Knight is Giles Breton's "daemon" the manifestation of the people hoping for Bretons return to aid them.

Reabe
12-10-2006, 20:10
Gork and Mork... They're Greenskins. They don't need a reason.

The question isn't "Why?" but "Why not?" :D

RobC
12-10-2006, 20:42
Sorry Nekkid Fishman, but you've missed the point a bit here. The dark irony behind the gods is that while they are baleful, dangerous and generally to be appeased, they are ultimately created by the hopes, fears and general emotional jetsam of the mortal races. This concept has its roots in the whole "If God didn't exist then Man would have created Him" idea. Of course, 99.9999% of humans don't realise this. The elves, on the other hand...

Arnizipal
12-10-2006, 21:24
I would like to know where the quoted material is stated, because I can't find it anywhere besides this forum.
You know this reminds me of a discussion we had about a year ago. ;)

Like I told you back then (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13615&p=264928), it's in Liber Chaotica: Tzeentch.

A neutral shade of black.
12-10-2006, 21:34
therefore Sigmar is a powerful warrior with long blonde hair and bulging muscles who stands for hope and truth and the good of mankind

In actual fact, my post was a very, very, very condensed summary of the theory of systems of beliefs that you expanded upon. And I'd just like to take this moment to stress the fact that the god-Sigmar and the man-Sigmar are two entirely different beings.


The Sigmar-god of the Empire is just a Warp-eddy that accrued consciousness because an ambitious daemon slid into the space created by the Imperial citizens' worship of Sigmar Heldenhammer's actions. In other words, the Sigmar-god is some minor daemon who seized his chance and merged with the disturbance in the Warp that represented what Sigmar's people believed in (and in that respect, since Heldenhammer was a warrior, is subservient to Khorne in the greater scheme), thus becoming the Sigmar they saw as their god. The distinction here lies in the fact that the Sigmar people saw as their god is not necessarily the same Sigmar that existed (the real Sigmar might have been allergic to cats, to take a dumb example, but if none of his followers document that, remember it and incorporate it in their dealings with their god in some way, it won't show up in the Sigmar-god; with the same reasoning, the Sigmar-god may dislike milk whereas the dead Heldenhammer didn't, merely because the Sigmar-god's worshippers think Heldenhammer disliked milk).

And incidentally, one more time: daemon = Warp entity before anything else. Not physical manifestation of an emotion that is such a feat of influence that only the Four can do it.

Gekiganger
12-10-2006, 21:41
In actual fact, my post was a very, very, very condensed summary of the theory of systems of beliefs that you expanded upon. And I'd just like to take this moment to stress the fact that the god-Sigmar and the man-Sigmar are two entirely different beings.

I thought that was common sense/knowledge :confused:

The true sigmar was lost in the warp, daemon sigmar took his place as patron of the empire.

A neutral shade of black.
12-10-2006, 21:50
I thought that was common sense/knowledge :confused:


Apparently (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=861550&postcount=29) not (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1005822&postcount=45).

(No offense to the people linked to.)

NakedFisherman
12-10-2006, 21:57
You know this reminds me of a discussion we had about a year ago. ;)

Like I told you back then (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13615&p=264928), it's in Liber Chaotica: Tzeentch.

Which means little, of course. Liber Chaotica is riddled with garbage, and this is just the week-old banana peel. Liber Chaotica and Liber Necris are the 'shock rock' of BL publications. They're not particularly excellent, but they stand out for unmeritous reasons.

Besides, what people seem to miss is that the gods aren't 'formed' by conscious thoughts. They feed on pain, despair, hate, and likewise which they instill in mortals. They wouldn't wither up and die if people stopped believing in them (they aren't the Easter Bunny or other fictitious creatures). They don't necessarily echo mortals, but perhaps mortals echo them.

I think it'd be best if people dropped the idea of gods being formed by 'thoughts'. 'Thoughts' denotes a cognitive, manlike intellect which is wholly unnecessary for the gods. Simplifying what the Aethyr consists of in this manner is the WHFB equivalent of 40K's oft-misunderstood and mistated bolter (for the last time, it's not a mini rocket launcher).

Flame of Udun
12-10-2006, 23:16
So let me get this straight.. the four primary chaos gods act as the base elements for all the other gods??? So its like a Colour wheel, if you take a bit of red and a bit of yellow you get orange or with the gods of warhammer if you take a bit of Khorne and a splidge of Tzeentch you get Hashut? But where does order come in to this, where is the balance between light and dark, why are the gods not considered separate entities instead of "vortices" of influence? Where is the dualism, if there is chaos there should also be order acting as a balance to this whole system?

NakedFisherman
12-10-2006, 23:37
So let me get this straight.. the four primary chaos gods act as the base elements for all the other gods??? So its like a Colour wheel, if you take a bit of red and a bit of yellow you get orange or with the gods of warhammer if you take a bit of Khorne and a splidge of Tzeentch you get Hashut? But where does order come in to this, where is the balance between light and dark, why are the gods not considered separate entities instead of "vortices" of influence? Where is the dualism, if there is chaos there should also be order acting as a balance to this whole system?

Chaos isn't 'chaos' as an opposite of order. It's Chaos. The Aethyr. The Winds of Magic.

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 00:29
The dark irony behind the gods is that while they are baleful, dangerous and generally to be appeased, they are ultimately created by the hopes, fears and general emotional jetsam of the mortal races.

Created by them, or accompanied by them?

The gods quite obviously have their retinue of emotions that mortals dread and associate with gods. While their power in the realm of the Warhammer world may be bolstered by their followers, the 'power' of the Realm of Chaos seems boundless and, like Wu Ming quoted previously, impossible for mortal minds to comprehend.

MvS
13-10-2006, 01:24
As far as I am aware, and I admit that 'official' imagery can get quite hazy and/or contradictory sometimes, 'gods' in Warhammer are a cocktail of things, not just one simple metaphysical process.

Their power and their prime cause if you like comes from the basic drives of sentient, mortal creatures, like the need, desire and will to survive (fight or flee), mate, eat (therefore seek gratifications of basic mortal instincts), to feel safe, contentment, joy, perhaps 'to belong', sadness, fear, desperation (again, the panic of fight or flee mechanisms can play here), anger (again), curiosity, the drive to move/migrate - things like that. The idea of the Id and the subconscious play a big role in this whole logic as well.

Added to this we have more complex emotions, ones that are undoubtedly real, although perhaps existing as cocktails of other more basic drives, like love, indignation, pride, delight, despair, greed, hope, hate, maliciousness, regret, schadenfreude and so on.

I suppose the final part of the trinity of basic god/daemonic power and purpose would be acts of will and concepts. This is where the thought idea comes in. So honour isn't an emotion as such, but it a widely understood and sought after ideal/concept. Then we have concepts and value judgements like good and evil, righteouness and wickedness, right and wrong, justice, worthiness, holiness, sanctity, profanity, lasciviousness, politics and so many others.

I suppose these drives, feelings/emotions and concepts/values/thoughts could be said to be the source, or at least momentum, of the notional 'vortices' within the Aethyr that are the basis of the gods and daemons. But I think there is a difference between the pre-sensate Powers and Dominions of the Aethyr (to use a more Miltonian style of terminology), and the conscious identities and personalities of the manifest Gods and Daemons of Mortals.

Subconsciously mortals might be aware of, let's say, the conglomerate Aethyric Vortex of fight-or-flee/anger/rage/hate/the will to survive/ the desire to dominate, etc etc, and they might express this awareness by personifying this feeling they have as a divine/daemonic identity and source of these feelings and drives - Khorne, lets say.

This doesn't mean that by pulling a name out of their backsides and drawing a picture to go with it ("No-no! Make the horns look bigger and more curly, kind of like the ones on that big red guy from that movie Legend!!"), that mortals in the Warhammer world create gods. The energy (for want of a better word), the aethyric pool or vortex of particular sensations and concepts already exists by itself, whether mortals want it to or not. But mortals can frame how that aethyric reality manifests itself, or perhaps what aspects of that aethyric reality manifest - although this is rarely a deliberate and planned process

This isn't indicative of mortal 'control' over gods. There is no directed plebicitory group decision in which gods shall be made to exist, what they do and how they manifest themselves and behave. Mortals try to explain the feelings they have and the things they see in terms that they understand, and to the largely ignorant history of the Warhammer world this process involved saying "it was the god of disease that struck ye down!" and things like that. Once these ideas of gods and daemons were established (which doesn't take long at all, rumours and superstitions flash around and become 'canon' very quickly), they take on a momentum, or even life, of their own. In the case of gods and daemons in the Warhammer world, this is literal.

Once a god is personified, it is conscious, in a manner of speaking, and although it is still bound to the nature of its power source (its vortex of whatever), it will also seek to ensure that its identity, its conscious and self-aware incarnation, remains existent, known, loved, feared, respected, worshipped and so on and on. Even hating and reviling something acknowledges it, giving it power and credence as a concept, and 'concept' is a very real, powerful and 'meaty' thing within the Aethyr, and therefore to aethyric entities. These gods will probably also seek to promote in mortals those drives, feelings and concepts that make up their aethyric vortex, and therefore empower them.

So whereas I would say that drives, emotions and abstracts (like notions of justice or whatever) might create the specific 'mortar and bricks' of a god/daemon, and the 'texture and colour' of that entity too, it is belief, faith and the development of specific superstitions, mythologies, religions that give the gods their conscious identities and 'faces' if you will.

Once 'given' though, these identities are not so easily taken back or unmade, any more than a religion or ideology is easily unmade, even in the face of great harm or contrary evidence. In fact with Warhammer gods/daemons it is even more profound, because there you have religions and ideologies that are conscious within the Aethyr and its boundaries, and both powerful and independent to varying degrees. They are not children, but fully grown, and often completely disfunctional, adults who have vastly more power, knowledge and perception immediately accessible to them than their puny 'parents' could ever muster.

And more again, just to stretch the analogy even further, most of the gods' mortal 'parents' actually believe that it is they who are in fact the children and that their aethyric creations are the parents, and they would and could never believe otherwise. They have their religions and mythologies telling them of Creation myths and whatnot, and they have seen the awful power and spectacular glory of the gods and cannot ever doubt them - even if these same mortals hate and despise the gods and believe that they do all they can to fight against them.

Many gods may already have existed thanks to older human tribes, or because of the drives, emotions, concepts and beliefs of the ancestors of Old Ones, Elves, Dwarfs, Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, Slann, Skinks, Beastmen, and any other sentient creature you might care to identify within the Warhammer mythos. These already existent gods and daemons probably made their presence felt to subsequent generations and newly evolving species, thereby propogating their identity and godhood.

In the 'official' imagery there is also an issue about souls. There almost as many different conceptions of what a soul might be, what happens to it during life and after death, and how it effects/is effected by, the Aethyr, as there are writers on such matters within the imagery.

I offered two different looks at the idea in the Chaotica series and in Necris. One a 'classic' Old World Black Magister/Daemonologist conceptualisation of the soul, influenced by the religions, mythologies and dominant spellcrafts of the Old World, and the other conceptualisation as an older and far more complex vision of what it might be from Ancient Nehekhara in the Southlands. They are related certainly, and have certain ideas in common, but they also have enough differences to show how different conceptions of such 'meta' matters within the Warhammer world can be. I would imagine there are many others, and I don't doubt that other writers for GW will come up with subtly, and even radically, different ideas as and how they please (within certain loose criteria, of course).

MvS
13-10-2006, 01:50
the gods aren't 'formed' by conscious thoughts.
Yes and no. See my last post.


They feed on pain, despair, hate, and likewise which they instill in mortals.
Absolutely, and many more feelings/emotions as well.


They wouldn't wither up and die if people stopped believing in them
This would be one of the Great Unprovables of the Warhammer world I guess. No Old World human (at least) would ever just stop believing in a god. They may stop worshipping a god, or fear, hate and revile a god, or consider the god weak, petty and next to nothing when compared to their newly adopted god, but humans in the Warhammer world are entirely theistic to their core - their entire cultures are pretty much driven by religious belief and superstitions that are 'proven' to them by observable magical, miraculous and sorcerous events of varying scales, from the tiny to the truly massive.


(they aren't the Easter Bunny or other fictitious creatures).
I think the point is that they are like the Easter Bunny in some important ways, given that the example is somewhat facetious. The difference being, in the Warhammer world if the Easter Bunny was widely believed in as a cultural icon, he would have some existence and effect beyond mortals' belief in him.


They don't necessarily echo mortals, but perhaps mortals echo them.
Even the oldest GW imagery seems to indicate that both are true in a cyclic fashion. And they also feed each other. Gods feed in mortals a belief in themselves and certain drives/emotions/concepts (sometimes beneficially to these mortals, sometimes not), and mortals feed the gods and daemons with the drives/emotions/concepts they experience and conceive.


I think it'd be best if people dropped the idea of gods being formed by 'thoughts'. 'Thoughts' denotes a cognitive, manlike intellect which is wholly unnecessary for the gods.
I talk about this in my last post.


PS
Please excuse the double post. There was a lot of ground I wanted to cover/spout about.


PPS

This quote from RobC:


When Gav states that all gods are subsets of the big four spheres, he doesn't mean that all other gods are false and only the big four are real. Gods are not discrete beings like we are; there is a blur between spheres of influence. A very good example of this is where Khaine and Khorne meet. Clearly, Khaine is a more focused part of the sphere of emotions that fuels Khorne. Khaine is both distinct and part of Khorne, and also considerably less powerful because of his specialisation.

...is also primetime stuff, and, as far as I understand these things, pretty 'canon'.

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 03:15
The difference being, in the Warhammer world if the Easter Bunny was widely believed in as a cultural icon, he would have some existence and effect beyond mortals' belief in him.

I just don't see that happening. It stinks of the 'red wunz go fasta' Orks of 40K.

CommanderCax
13-10-2006, 10:23
I thought that was common sense/knowledge :confused:

The true sigmar was lost in the warp, daemon sigmar took his place as patron of the empire.

I really do wonder where this 'daemon' thing comes from more and more people seem to proclaim.

Maybe the shadow-self (ie. soul) of the man known as Sigmar was the basis of the coalescing within the warp that lead to the emergence of the god Sigmar or maybe not. It doesn't matter and can hardly be proven.

Anyway, I said it before (kindly shown via a link by aneutralshadeofblack) and I say it again:
There is no need of a random daemon as the basis for the emergence of a god. It is even doubtable whether it is even possible for a daemon to reach godhood. Be'lakor is trying that for a long time now after all.

Daemons and gods are two different things. Both are warp-entities indeed. Just as a giant sequoia and a fly are both living creatures. Still they are distinct and it is important to keep this distinction in mind.
Daemons are not so closely bound to the warp. They are seperate from the fabric of their universe, and do not flow and change with it like gods do. A daemon is 'born' when a Chaos Power gives up little of its accumulated power to create a seperate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the warp. The Chaos Power can reclaim the power and independence it has given to its daemon children at any time, thus ensuring their loyalty. It is only through the loss of this power that a daemon can be 'killed'. Its mind dissolves into the whirls and currents of warp space.
Furthermore the lesser Chaos Powers (ie. gods) can also give birth to a daemon. The ripples of warpspace create short lived and very minor Powers, some of whom invest all their energy in a single daemon. They 'become' the daemon, and gain independence from the warp's ceaseless currents, exchanging the potential of greater power for the certainty of maintaining their current energy.

Ranting off.

Most of it is written in the Realm of Chaos books actually and most of this discussion would be obsolete if everyone had a copy at home... ;)

MvS
13-10-2006, 11:03
I just don't see that happening.
It's worth pointing out that just because something is reasonably well established within the background imagery (i.e.: belief and expectation having tangible effects, even to the point of creating Aethyric entities if they are strong enough and have been around long enough) doesn't mean anyone has to accept it.

This is an issue often bumped into by WHF Roleplayers. If something 'canon' doesn't fit with how you like to conceive your gameworld, then you certainly don't have to use it in your gameworld. There's a difference between that, however, and saying how you conceive your gameworld is 'objective' or 'canon'. Not that I think you are doing that necessarily in this particular instance.

It stinks of the 'red wunz go fasta' Orks of 40K.
Try as I might, I just don't see the analogy.

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 11:19
Try as I might, I just don't see the analogy.

People think the Easter Bunny exists, so therefore he exists? That's why I see it as puerile: it seems like a kindergarten 'Let's pretend...' storybook writing. It works in Neverland, not the Old World.

This also doesn't seem to account for the ignorants of the world -- young children, patently stupid people, etc. Their thoughts have little or no bearing on reality (and sometimes, not even a basis).

If people believe in the Easter Bunny in the Warhammer world, that's all well and good. It doesn't make the Easter Bunny have any real power or existence beyond their juvenile thoughts.


It's worth pointing out that just because something is reasonably well established within the background imagery (i.e.: belief and expectation having tangible effects, even to the point of creating Aethyric entities if they are strong enough and have been around long enough) doesn't mean anyone has to accept it.

Therein lies the problem: where is that stated? I don't think it's 'official' or 'canon' at all, at least not in the way you've written it.

RobC
13-10-2006, 11:47
It's very canon, but as my sourcebooks are at home you'll have to wait until I have the enthusiasm to get them out and type up the pertinant paragraphs.

As I said, this is at the core of the Warhammer mythos. At no point have Warhammer gods been anything but how MvS describes them. This ain't AD&D.

MvS
13-10-2006, 12:47
People think the Easter Bunny exists, so therefore he exists?
It isn't as simple as that.

The imagery doesn't suggest that any old joe can create a daemon or god just by believing it exists. What it says, and what I am saying, is that if enough people believe something for long enough and implicitly, then this belief will start to have some effect. The gods of the Warhammer world have been around for a very, very long time and are probably amalgams and cross-overs of many different gods and 'independent' daemons throughout history, hence they have so much tangible power.

But we also know that the Warhammer world is full of very minor entities, some with their own consciousness, some just personifying blind but minor processes. These are sprites (or 'spites' as GW prefer to call them, perhaps because the name is 'darker'), imps, fairies, elementals, spirit and all that shebang. If a village has been leaving out little offerings for the spirits of the field for centuries and centuries, then chances are there are spirits in that field of some sort. Perhaps hardly noticeable and not very powerful, but the Winds of Magic are scultped by belief and expectation (as well as some other things).

Because so few people have an actual aptitude for grasping magic, consciously or not, the effects of your 'normal' human's belief is very, very minor, and it takes lots and lots of 'normal' humans believing something for a very long time for it to start having any supernatural effect.

However, and perhaps reminiscent of how Neil Gaimen describes fading gods in his Sandman series, and even better in 'American Gods', who is to say that an already existent entity of whatever 'size' age and power could not be drawn to the pointless faith and superstition of these villagers, along with the small amounts of the Winds of Magic that their faith draws down? Could an entity such as this not then 'adopt' the villagers superstition, influencing them slightly so that they gradually alter their superstitious beliefs and practices so that they actually further empower whatever it is that this almost cuckoo like or parasitic entity 'feeds' upon?

I'm sure it's possible within the Warhammer imagery.


This also doesn't seem to account for the ignorants of the world -- young children, patently stupid people, etc. Their thoughts have little or no bearing on reality (and sometimes, not even a basis).
And I'm sure they have some effects on the Aethyr, however small. Although its also worth bearing in mind that there are gods and daemons already existing who 'feed' of off a wide variety of different feelings and who already embody certain concepts. So far from making new gods and daemons with every child's thought, it's more probably that existing entities absorb these child concepts within the Aethyr.

Also remember, as I stated in my first post in this thread, even widespread belief in a name and an entity alone does not suddenly create a god (although it might perhaps create a very, very minor spirit or something). There must also be emotion. The 'vortex', 'power' or 'meat' of gods are emotions and drives, only their identity and independent cosnciousness is granted through specific religious and cultural beliefs and expectations.


If people believe in the Easter Bunny in the Warhammer world, that's all well and good. It doesn't make the Easter Bunny have any real power or existence beyond their juvenile thoughts.

Whereas believing in a rabbit that hops around leaving chocolate eggs everywhere wouldn't be enough in itself to create a definite and manifest entity with power within the Mortal World, all mortal concepts and conscious and subconscious experiences and beliefs surrounding new life, birth, Spring, fertility, fecundity and so on would definitely have a huge effect within the Aethyr.

The Easter Bunny as we understand it is too modern and designed for children to be relevant to the medieval Warhammer world, but I bet the concept of a super-fertile rabbit (and lets face it, rabbits mate like... well... rabbits) as a representation of Spring, fertility, new life etc etc, may in fact have relevance within the Warhammer world, and may in fact encourage superstition or even religion in which a deity is represented as a rabbit. Maybe a minor aspect of Rhya, or one of her Aethyric servants...?


I don't think it's 'official' or 'canon' at all, at least not in the way you've written it.
What can I say? Ignoring the Chaotica books (and let's face it, you know you want to... ;) :D), you could always check out all the books and online notes that Chaotica was based upon. In particular, The Lost and the Damned, Slaves to Darkness, Hordes of Chaos, the last three of four pre-'Hordes' Chaos army books, WHFRPv1 and its supplements, the various threads on the GW forums where these things are discussed. All of these mention to some degree or another the nature of the gods in Warhammer.

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 12:47
As I said, this is at the core of the Warhammer mythos. At no point have Warhammer gods been anything but how MvS describes them. This ain't AD&D.

I'm talking about the Easter Bunny existing in the Aehtyr because ignoramouses believe in him, not about gods.

I'd really like to see the relevant statements, because so far I've seen nothing of the sort written anywhere.

Thanks for your last post MvS, it makes a bit more sense now. Again, however, I don't recall conscious thoughts having any real bearing on the guises and methods of Aethyric beings.

There's also a few more issues...


Because so few people have an actual aptitude for grasping magic, consciously or not, the effects of your 'normal' human's belief is very, very minor, and it takes lots and lots of 'normal' humans believing something for a very long time for it to start having any supernatural effect.

I also don't recall people having an inaptitude for magic. It's something learned, not innate. These aren't 40K's psykers, they are students of the Colleges of Magic. While Elves may have a greater aptitude for magic than humans, I don't think this precludes some humans from manipulating the Winds of Magic.


If a village has been leaving out little offerings for the spirits of the field for centuries and centuries, then chances are there are spirits in that field of some sort.

Or, rather, they began leaving offerings because something was there to begin with.


In particular, The Lost and the Damned, Slaves to Darkness, Hordes of Chaos, the last three of four pre-'Hordes' Chaos army books, WHFRPv1 and its supplements, the various threads on the GW forums where these things are discussed. All of these mention to some degree or another the nature of the gods in Warhammer.

Yes, but none of them mention conscious thoughts forming Aethyric entities as far as I recall. That was a Liber Chaotica fabrication, unless I'm mistaken.


What it says, and what I am saying, is that if enough people believe something for long enough and implicitly, then this belief will start to have some effect.

Again, I don't recall that being anywhere besides Liber Chaotica and this forum. What is 'long enough'? What is 'some effect'?

MvS
13-10-2006, 12:50
Seeing as you are the person who brought up the Easter Bunny as a reference in the first place, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 13:05
Seeing as you are the person who brought up the Easter Bunny as a reference in the first place, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

You'll have to rephrase that for me, because I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

A neutral shade of black.
13-10-2006, 13:37
Daemons and gods are two different things.

The point is, no; or at least, not so different.

As I said, I'm talking here about daemon as a word for a self-conscious Warp entity, not the physical manifestation of a god. The latter is indeed completely different from a god, being entirely subservient to one. However, the former is, in essence, what the tadpole is to the frog, in respect to gods.

In other words, the Warp entity that I name daemon for lack of a better word (if you have one, I'd be glad to correct my vocabulary) is an infant god. It's a Warp eddie that has acquired some form of limited consciousness that pushes it to ensure its own survival; which, here, means that it's going to seek to gather more followers, gain more power, etc.

Incidentally, is Realms of Chaos still in print? :P

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 13:43
Incidentally, is Realm of Chaos still in print? :P

You mean the Realms of Chaos books? No, they have been out of print since the mid-nineties.

Jedi152
13-10-2006, 13:47
Certainly not still in print, and if you pick a copy up for less than £50, you've got a bargain on your hands.

Grunge
13-10-2006, 14:08
If the "Easter Bunny" theory is true then, for example, why Hashut was already in existence. He currupted some Dwarfs into Chaos so he was already there!

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 14:20
If the "Easter Bunny" theory is true then, for example, why Hashut was already in existence. He currupted some Dwarfs into Chaos so he was already there!

My point exactly! The gods created the ideas and beliefs of people, the people didn't create the gods through worship!

While I can agree that emotion and such may give Chaos power in the mortal world, the concept of the Aethyr being bound by the power given to it by mortals is silly. Perhaps emotion or conscious thoughts allow the introduction of its power into the physical realm, or they or please the gods, but having conscious thoughts as the lifeblood of the Aethyr is entirely contradictory.

Not to mention, as far as I know, not canon.


In other words, the Warp entity that I name daemon for lack of a better word (if you have one, I'd be glad to correct my vocabulary) is an infant god.

Aethyric being would perhaps be a better term. Also, an 'infant god' implies that it'll grow to become a god. There's no precedent for that ever happening.

MvS
13-10-2006, 14:32
I also don't recall people having an inaptitude for magic. It's something learned, not innate.
This is another of those grey areas that has been contradictory in the past. WHFRP has tried to create a bit more coherence to all of this.

To paraphrase some stuff from Realms of Sorcery and the WHFRP rulebook, magic saturates everything in the Warhammer world to varying degrees and has done so since the collapse of the Old Ones' Polar Gates. As a result most of the races that exist have evolved alongside magic and with magic permeating the very fabric of their beings throughout much of their evolution.

In theory then, every living being is ‘touched’ by magic whether they realise it or not. Invariably this is a completely unconscious process for the majority of humans, and even those that manage to ‘touch’ the Winds of Magic back, utilising its power, tend to do so subconsciously and by fluke or sheer faith and determination about something.

Such people as these are by no means spellcasters, but they are perhaps more lucky at playing dice, or perhaps the opposite, existing under a cloud of seemingly perpetual bad luck.

Just as almost any human may learn how to swing a sword, almost any human in Warhammer could be trained to at the very least perceive in some way the Winds of Magic, and indeed the further north one travels the more likely it is that the human inhabitants of the region will be able to perceive the Winds.

However, though this might be the case in theory, just as not everyone has the same aptitude for swordplay or soldiering, so too not everyone has the same aptitude for magic-use. In fact very few people posses such an aptitude. To put it another way, almost anyone with hands and arms can be taught to swing a sword with relative accuracy, but few have the physical strength, the natural talent, the dedication and will to become good soldiers, let alone great warriors or celebrated heroes. Many of those who try to achieve these heights of excellence when they are, at best, only adequate warriors, will often find themselves crippled or dead before too long. The same can be said for would-be magic-users – only far more so.

Whereas it might be true that given enough time and dedication almost anyone can be taught to perceive the Winds of Magic (if indistinctly), very few humans are actually born with the ability to see them, and those that are might see only vague flickerings out of the corners of their eyes, or else experience strange vibrations or other sensations along the spine or inside their skulls. Resultantly, not many humans ever even dream that they might have an aptitude for magic and spellcraft in the first place, because they either sense nothing of the Winds of Magic, or else they do, but because they are in the minority and are therefore told time and again they are mad (or whatever) because of the strange flickering auras they see and any other strange sensations they might feel.

So just to be clear, although any human in the Warhammer world can theoretically be trained to perceive, if not use, magic to some degree, this is a little known fact – if it is known at all. With few exceptions, the only people who go on to study magic or practice spellcraft are those who have demonstrated an uncommonly advanced magical sensitivity or have manifested to themselves and others supernatural powers, intentionally or otherwise.

Oh, and perhaps perhaps the unwanted sons and daughters of forward thinking and fabulously wealthy nobles... ;)


Or, rather, they began leaving offerings because something was there to begin with.
Either. Both.


Yes, but none of them mention conscious thoughts forming Aethyric entities as far as I recall. That was a Liber Chaotica fabrication, unless I'm mistaken.
Yes, I'm afraid you are mistaken, after a fashion.

As I've mentioned in my previous posts, conscious thoughts do not by themselves create gods. Emotions and mortal drives and needs, conscious and subconscious, play the dominant role in this. Mortal thoughts, concepts, beliefs expectations etc. help make the specific identity, or 'face', of those Aethyric entities referred to as 'gods'. They turn them from blind and powerful expressions of particular emotions into conscious and manifest identities that can then be worshipped or whatever. Once a deity exists, however, with its power, purposes and identity, it can't simply be wished away. It will seek ways to survive and promote its interests.

Aside from the Chaotica series, the 'holy-grail' of imagery books, the old Realms of Chaos editions and the latest Hordes of Chaos books both indicate how mortal expectation shape gods and daemons, and then also, cyclicly, how the appearance and personalities of already existent gods and daemons feed back into the beliefs and expectations of mortals.


What is 'long enough'?
However long it happens to take.


What is 'some effect'?
I don't know... 'poltergeist' activity perhaps. Small areas that make the hairs stand up on one's neck. Groves that make you feel a bit randy and ready to start making babies. All sorts of things I imagine. The Warhammer Roleplay supplements are exploring things like this in an interesting manner.

MvS
13-10-2006, 14:49
The gods created the ideas and beliefs of people, the people didn't create the gods!
Is this really such a hard concept to grasp?

Let's look at Hashut. We know little or nothing about his genesis, so its possible and even probable that he may well have existed in some form or another before Dwarfs ever turned to Chaos. No-one is saying that every deity is created on spec and over night be any new group of mortals. What we could have, however, is an already existing god or independent daemon or whatever, who for whatever reason is attracted to the Dwarf mentality and the emotions Dwarfs have. This would mean that this god or daemon also has some traits to him that are part of the Dwarf psyche, and so he would be attractive or compelling in some way to some Dwarfs in particular circumstances.

He may have appeared to the Dwarfs as he is today, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that the faith, expectations, purposes and emotions of the corrupted Dwarfs re-inforce all that make him up, and more than this, they help define his existence further. Perhaps Hashut is even more Chaos Dwarf-centric in his views and purposes now than he was when he was first dicovered by the Dwarfs. We don't know, but it seems likely. But the process is symbiotic, as he comes closer to the Dwarfs, the Dwarfs come closer to him, one begins to define the other until we have a chicken-and-egg scenario.

There's also the fact that Hashut has probably consumed more than a few Dwarf souls in his time, and so this would probably have had an effect on him as well.

Somthing similar could be said for Isha and Rhya. Rhya may well just be a human-driven manifestation of Isha, the goddess of the far older elves. This doesn't mean that the humans created Rhya, but it does mean that their particular faith, conceptualisations, expectation and all that have at the very least helped create a distinct 'human facet' to Isha - a facet that obviously does not promote elven culture and issues amongst humans.


While I can agree that emotion and such may give Chaos power in the mortal world, the concept of the Aethyr being bound by the power given to it by mortals is silly.
Aethyr and the Warp/Chaos Realm existed before there were emotions and concepts, but emotions and concepts are what 'leak into' this realm and give momentum and mojo to the blind and passive energies of the Aethyr. There were no Warp Vortices before there were sentient mortals in the physical universe. There was, however, a Warp.


Perhaps emotion or conscious thoughts allow the introduction of its power into the physical realm
I would agree. A daemon can't be manifest within the mortal realm if there was never anyone there to see it or conceive of it in the first place and call it a daemon. What form would it take, because there are no stable forms 'natural' to the Aethyr.


or they empower or please the gods
Indeed.

but having it as the lifeblood of the Aethyr is entirely contradictory.
Indeed again. It is the gods and entities of the Warp who require the 'lifeblood' of mortal emotions etc. The Aethyr itself exists regardless.


Also, an 'infant god' implies that it'll grow to become a god. There's no precedent for that ever happening.
Well, admittedly it isn't discussed that much in Warhammer fantasy these days (although it was in days of Realms of Chaos, and in some BL books). That's mostly to do with the fact that most WF imagery is written as if from within the imagery. However, the idea of infant gods is readily discussed in the 40K metaphysics. Ynead. Star Child. Even Ahriman sought to become a god, and had a good chance of doing so...

Although 'infant' is a misnomer. They aren't actually children as we might mean it.

CommanderCax
13-10-2006, 14:55
I'd really like to see the relevant statements, because so far I've seen nothing of the sort written anywhere.
It's stated in RoC: StD and RoC: LatD.


I also don't recall people having an inaptitude for magic. It's something learned, not innate.
It's both in a way.
Some become Hedge Wizards because of their innate ability, others are found by the Magisters and trained at the Colleges of Magic due to their talent and those gifted with an aptitude for magic in Bretonnia are brought into Athel Loren by the fairy-folk to serve as servants (male) or to become Maidens of the Lady (female).


The point is, no; or at least, not so different.
As I said, I'm talking here about daemon as a word for a self-conscious Warp entity, not the physical manifestation of a god. The latter is indeed completely different from a god, being entirely subservient to one. However, the former is, in essence, what the tadpole is to the frog, in respect to gods.

In other words, the Warp entity that I name daemon for lack of a better word (if you have one, I'd be glad to correct my vocabulary) is an infant god. It's a Warp eddie that has acquired some form of limited consciousness that pushes it to ensure its own survival; which, here, means that it's going to seek to gather more followers, gain more power, etc.

Incidentally, is Realm of Chaos still in print? :P
I. I do not know what you mean by 'physical manifestation of a god'. Physical in the sense of 'in the real world outside the warp'? That is hardly possible as there is not enough magic around to sustain them.

II. It seems we are using the term daemon for different things. Not all warp-entities are daemons, but all daemons are warp-entities. See my above post for the actual definition of daemon; Realms of Chaos is quite clear in regard to the term.

III. The tadpole/frog analogy is a bit unexact as it suggest every daemon, given enough time, will become a god. But this is normally not (never) the case.
A god is not a 'big' daemon and neither is a daemon a 'small' god. They are two entirely different things, even though they share a few things in common (being 'creatures' of the warp).

IV. As I said daemons are not infant gods. That is a wrong assumption. Daemon is daemon, god is god and both are warp-entities. Even then is it not sure whether Sigmar as a god was a minor warp-entity (or random daemon in your words) that already existed or whether the actual shadow-self (ie. soul) of the man Sigmar was the basis for the emergence/growth of a unique warp-entity known as the god Sigmar.

V. Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness and Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned are out of print for a very long time now and I tend mine like the holy grail itself... :o

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 17:33
Is this really such a hard concept to grasp?

No, it's extremely simple. So simple that children could understand it. In fact, it's too simple. That's kinda my point...


We know nothing about his genesis, so its possible and even probable that he may well have existed in some form or another before Dwarfs ever turned to Chaos. No-one is saying that every deity is created on spec and over night be any new group of mortals. What we could have, however, is an already existing god/daemon or whatever, who for whatever reason is attracted to the Dwarf mentality and the emotions Dwarfs have. This would mean that this god or daemon also has some traits to him that are part of the Dwarf psyche, and so he would be attractive or compelling in some way to some Dwarfs in particular circumstances.

I don't understand why Aethyric beings need a reason. The whole idea of reasoning this all out is absurd to begin with!

I also don't see why they need to be attracted to certain emotions. What's to stop Hashut from being who he is simply because he damn well feels like it? He's a Chaos god! He toys with mortals! They're his little playthings! His dependence upon (or change due to) his toys is simply silly.

The gods are unpredictable. Giving a reason to them is not only contradictory to canon background information, but it's ridiculous as well.


Indeed again. It is the gods and entities of the Warp who require the 'lifeblood' of mortal emotions etc.

Referring to it as 'lifeblood' isn't pertinent enough. It makes the gods dependent upon mortals and less sentient. They control mortals. They create their own feasts from mortal minds.


Well, admittedly it isn't discussed that much in Warhammer fantasy these days (although it was in days of Realms of Chaos, and in some BL books). That's mostly to do with the fact that most WF imagery is written as if from within the imagery. However, the idea of infant gods is readily discussed in the 40K metaphysics. Ynead. Star Child. Even Ahriman sought to become a god, and had a good chance of doing so...

Wholly irrelevant, though.


It's stated in RoC: StD and RoC: LatD.

You'll have to post the quote, because I can't find it. The problem is that people are interjecting conscious thoughts into the mix when there is no precedent for them in the background. Every passage I've read specifically deals with subconscious thoughts.

That's the whole issue with the Easter Bunny and the relation to 'red wunz go fasta' Orkz. That's been my point all along. The idea of 'conscious thoughts' shaping gods is in nothing I own yet I see it posted on this forum day in and day out.

MvS
13-10-2006, 18:44
Meh... okay.

Guess we extrapolate different things from the same stuff.

No biggie.

:)

Wu Ming
13-10-2006, 18:46
You'll have to post the quote, because I can't find it. The problem is that people are interjecting conscious thoughts into the mix when there is no precedent for them in the background. Every passage I've read specifically deals with subconscious thoughts.

Read my previous posts, if you still don't see what your looking for regarding quotes from those books; let me know and I'll find 'em and post 'em, but they are there. RoC books are for me the only source for 'reliable' info re: Chaos, as MvS stated alot of recent stuf is written as 'source text' so is often contrary and inconsistent, not because of a lack of writing but conversly as a sign of quality. These are meant to be actual texts found and composed within the Old World/ Warhammer World. RoC differed as there were two voices, the 'source text' style but also the GM?Rules voice that stated simple what was what in very clear and certain terms, and then there were the nice charts, table and mecahnics to DEMONSTRATE what was explained in both types of text (source/rules.)

I think most confusuion come today beacuse the RoC books are such rare finds, and so few, even those who own them often use them just for rules and don't read them 'cover to cover' so to speak.

A neutral shade of black.
13-10-2006, 19:00
If the "Easter Bunny" theory is true then, for example, why Hashut was already in existence. He currupted some Dwarfs into Chaos so he was already there!

Wrong.

What happened is this: some dwarfs, through natural, sociological change, came to think that technological progress = good; so good, in fact, that it should be the only thing that the dwarfs should pursue. Screw the respect of your ancestors and all that; they're not powering the excavator or the last technological marvel you invented. The numbers of these reformist dwarfs eventually grew to a point that when they found a focus for their belief that technology > *, that focus was empowered with godhood (this is a simplified, condensed, fast-forwarded version of what happened. As MvS said, these things don't happen overnight). End result: Hashut.

The "legends" of the Warhammer World as depicted by GW right now and the actual "facts" of how theology in the Warhammer World works are two different things. The former is usually based on the point of view of a bunch of ****** who don't know better, whilst the latter is a "scientific" examination of the theological make-up of the Warhammer World that can't be achieved unless you're not actually part of it.


III. The tadpole/frog analogy is a bit unexact as it suggest every daemon, given enough time, will become a god. But this is normally not (never) the case.
A god is not a 'big' daemon and neither is a daemon a 'small' god. They are two entirely different things, even though they share a few things in common (being 'creatures' of the warp).

No offense, but I'm starting to wonder how many times I'm going to have to say this, and if I should start using bold and size=29. Instead, I'll just quote my own post:


As I said, I'm talking here about daemon as a word for a self-conscious Warp entity, not the physical manifestation of a god. The latter is indeed completely different from a god, being entirely subservient to one. However, the former is, in essence, what the tadpole is to the frog, in respect to gods.

In other words, the Warp entity that I name daemon for lack of a better word (if you have one, I'd be glad to correct my vocabulary) is an infant god. It's a Warp eddie that has acquired some form of limited consciousness that pushes it to ensure its own survival; which, here, means that it's going to seek to gather more followers, gain more power, etc.


V. Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness and Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned are out of print for a very long time now and I tend mine like the holy grail itself...

That was kind of my point. In other words, the issue that not everyone has Realms of Chaos at home is moot. Unless you want to start giving out free legitimate copies of the books. :P

(Plus, those books deserve to be tended like the Grail.)


Wholly irrelevant, though.

We're dealing with the stuff from yonder days here. Closing your eyes and yelling "I disbelieve!" at the top of your lungs won't make the fact that at one point, GW acknowledged the tie between 40k and the Warhammer World existed go away. If you're ready to accept Realms of Chaos as an argument in this debate, there's absolutely no reason for you not to agree to people bringing in 40k background when the use of said 40k background is consistant. I do agree that this discussion should remain WFB-centric, but there's nothing that says we're not allowed to go steal some ideas from the other side from time to time.

Revlid
13-10-2006, 19:28
*Revlid generally agrees with MvS and aneutralshadeofblack, due to the fact that as with most theological disputes, the posts are getting too long for his stubby fingers to properly answer without overexterting himself.*

CommanderCax
13-10-2006, 19:31
You'll have to post the quote, because I can't find it.

StD (page 213):
...Many cultists believe that they can mould the warp to their will and in this they are partly correct. The warp Powers drink the emotions and thoughts of Mankind, growing bloated with power in the process. ... Corrupted and moulded by the thoughts and feelings of reality, the warp Powers nurture more hatred or depravity in the hearts of Mankind. And so a circle is established - Man's follies feed the warp Powers, and the Powers encourage Man to further follies. ...

LatD (page 86):
... Each of these whirlpools of energy represents a particular aspect of humanity or of those other sentient races whose thoughts and feelings have contributed towards them. Thus the largest or most extensive are those associated with the most common or deep rooted emotions and beliefs. ...


No offense, but I'm starting to wonder how many times I'm going to have to say this, and if I should start using bold and size=29.

Interestingly enough I recently thought the same and I was also about to quote my own text instead of chafing my fingers on the keyboard. Please re-read my initial post.

I just wanted you to realize the following: There is absolutely no need of a pre-existing daemon (or any other warp-entity for that matter) for the emergence of the god known as Sigmar. And it is simply wrong to assume otherwise.
Apart from that, the term daemon has a clear definition and meaning in the metaphysics of Warhammer. Do not confuse it.

A neutral shade of black.
13-10-2006, 19:47
I just wanted you to realize the following: There is absolutely no need of a pre-existing daemon (or any other warp-entity for that matter) for the emergence of the god known as Sigmar. And it is simply wrong to assume otherwise.

In this case, daemon = Warp entity, not bloodletter/plaguebearer/insert other well-known daemon name here.

(Battle of the phpBB codes!)


Apart from that, the term daemon has a clear definition and meaning in the metaphysics of Warhammer. Do not confuse it.


the Warp entity that I name daemon for lack of a better word (if you have one, I'd be glad to correct my vocabulary)

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 19:48
Read my previous posts, if you still don't see what your looking for regarding quotes from those books; let me know and I'll find 'em and post 'em, but they are there.

Conscious thoughts are mentioned?


StD (page 213):
...Many cultists believe that they can mould the warp to their will and in this they are partly correct. The warp Powers drink the emotions and thoughts of Mankind, growing bloated with power in the process. ... Corrupted and moulded by the thoughts and feelings of reality, the warp Powers nurture more hatred or depravity in the hearts of Mankind. And so a circle is established - Man's follies feed the warp Powers, and the Powers encourage Man to further follies. ...

LatD (page 86):
... Each of these whirlpools of energy represents a particular aspect of humanity or of those other sentient races whose thoughts and feelings have contributed towards them. Thus the largest or most extensive are those associated with the most common or deep rooted emotions and beliefs. ...

Thanks for those, but it's important to note that they are certainly not dealing with conscious thoughts like the Easter Bunny, the shape of Sigmar's left bicep, or anything else like that! They refer to men as unwitting pawns in the games of the gods. The power of the gods grows, but this does not make them dependent upon mortals (or rather, mortals have no ability to stop empowering the gods). The thoughts it refers to are subconscious -- rage, hope, despair, pleasure, etc.

The sixth edition Hordes of Chaos book echoes this almost exactly when it states:

Of the gods, the greatest of all are the four that are called the Dark Gods. The unwitting creations of Mankind's most powerful subconscious, they may be summarised (if imperfectly) as rage, hope, despair, and pleasure.

The confusion is often brought about when Sigmar is mentioned. People state that Sigmar becomes a god due to his worshippers, when this simply isn't true! Sigmar becomes a god because of other emotions and thoughts -- honor, valor, hope, and possibly darker or neutral thoughts such as vengeance and righteousness. The god they call Sigmar may just be a collection of these feelings and subconscious thoughts, or at least the power manifested through priests is brought about by these emotions. Even calling the god 'Sigmar' is nothing more than a name in the same vein as the Dark Four going by multitudes of names and titles. The semantics of it don't matter, and 'Sigmar' doesn't even need to be a separate entity of his own (and really, he isn't). He didn't 'become' a god as if during his mortal life there was no 'Sigmar' and there suddenly or slowly was after his disappearance. Gods are just part of the whole Aethyr and there is no place where one god ends and another begins.

CommanderCax
13-10-2006, 21:02
Thanks for those, but it's important to note that they are certainly not dealing with conscious thoughts like the Easter Bunny, the shape of Sigmar's left bicep, or anything else like that! They refer to men as unwitting pawns in the games of the gods. The power of the gods grows, but this does not make them dependent upon mortals (or rather, mortals have no ability to stop empowering the gods). The thoughts it refers to are subconscious -- rage, hope, despair, pleasure, etc.
I would sign most of it.
Still, the gods are dependent upon mortals: '...Man's follies feed the warp Power...'
The god known as Sigmar would certainly not stop existing when people would stop worshipping it, but it would diminish in power like Taal and Rhya (because less people worship them nowadays).
Furthermore the basic emotions certainly feed the four big Powers and that's the reason they are so powerful and fickle, but the mentioned beliefs (instead of basic emotions) are more sophisticated and therefore feed the more sophisticated gods (who are less powerfull and less fickle) like those from the pantheon worshipped in the Empire.



The confusion is often brought about when Sigmar is mentioned. People state that Sigmar becomes a god due to his worshippers, when this simply isn't true! Sigmar becomes a god because of other emotions and thoughts -- honor, valor, hope, and possibly darker or neutral thoughts such as vengeance and righteousness.
Honor, valor and righteousness are not emotions, they are conscious beliefs that appeared or developed due to certain cultural circumstances. These certainly formed or at least strengthened the entity known as Sigmar.
Perhaps Sigmar existed beforehand, perhaps he is the human version of Asuryan and even Grimnir or perhaps not...


Gods are just part of the whole Aethyr and there is no place where one god ends and another begins.
That is not true. They begin and end all the time (LatD page 86-87) and maybe the shadow-self/soul of the man Sigmar formed the entity Sigmar after his death, coalescing with 'like-minded' shadow-selves to a entity within the warp.

...When a man, or other intelligent creature dies, his shadow-self drifts in the warp. There it meets and coalesces with other shadow-selves with which it has an affinity, These appear as whirlpools of energy within the warp, whirlpools made up of shadow-selves which share a common residual belief or emotion. As only the most deeply rooted emotional states survive death, the shadow-self is not a proper refletion of a human or other sentient personality, but only its core beliefs and most strongly felt emotions...


In this case, daemon = Warp entity, not bloodletter/plaguebearer/insert other well-known daemon name here.
Sure, but as I mentioned even a pre-existing warp-entity is not needed or was ever mentioned in any background material for the emergence of the god Sigmar. Period.

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 21:30
I would sign most of it.
Still, the gods are dependent upon mortals: '...Man's follies feed the warp Power...'

Not in the sense of the gods requiring (or rather, beseeching) it, which was the point I was trying to make.


The god known as Sigmar would certainly not stop existing when people would stop worshipping it, but it would diminish in power like Taal and Rhya (because less people worship them nowadays).

Again, worship has nothing to do with it. 'Worship' implies a conscious reverence, which usually has an object associated with it. Emotions and convictions of the people have an effect on Taal and Rhya.


Furthermore the basic emotions certainly feed the four big Powers and that's the reason they are so powerful and fickle, but the mentioned beliefs (instead of basic emotions) are more sophisticated and therefore feed the more sophisticated gods (who are less powerfull and less fickle) like those from the pantheon worshipped in the Empire.

Perhaps this is where the confusion lies. The beliefs are not beliefs as formally worshipped in organized religion, but convictions -- certain truths which are ingrained into the minds of people.


Honor, valor and righteousness are not emotions, they are conscious beliefs that appeared or developed due to certain cultural circumstances.

They most certainly are not conscious thoughts. Again, a conscious thought denotes a cognitive mind forming them. A person can feel righteous, vengeful, or see honor and valor in others. He does not think 'well, gee, I'd say that action is righteous according to the True Knowledge Guide to Righteousness'. These are certain truths that are felt in the mind, not calculated.


That is not true. They begin and end all the time (LatD page 86-87) and maybe the shadow-self/soul of the man Sigmar formed the entity Sigmar after his death, coalescing with 'like-minded' shadow-selves to a entity within the warp.

Or, rather, the 'entity' has no true bounds. It's not defininable by mortal minds, and certainly not communicatable -- at least not in the simple tongue we're using. Think of it as you'd think of infinity. It's a concept we can only understand in the way it works in formulas, but truly understanding infinity is beyond our comprehension.

Also, Sigmar is never mentioned as having a death. In all likelihood he died, I'll give you that. :)


Sure, but as I mentioned even a pre-existing warp-entity is not needed or was ever mentioned in any background material for the emergence of the god Sigmar. Period.

I'm curious as to why you believe Sigmar must have an 'emergence'. Why can he not simply always exist within the Aethyr?

A neutral shade of black.
13-10-2006, 22:28
Sure, but as I mentioned even a pre-existing warp-entity is not needed or was ever mentioned in any background material for the emergence of the god Sigmar. Period.

Ugh.

It seems I've been very slow on the uptake over the last two or so days. I've finally understood what you're trying to say, and you have a point.

I think I'll go take a nap, now. My brain might decide it feels like working tomorrow.

CommanderCax
13-10-2006, 23:29
I'm curious as to why you believe Sigmar must have an 'emergence'. Why can he not simply always exist within the Aethyr?

Perhaps Sigmar existed beforehand, perhaps he is the human version of Asuryan and even Grimnir or perhaps not...


They most certainly are not conscious thoughts. Again, a conscious thought denotes a cognitive mind forming them. A person can feel righteous, vengeful, or see honor and valor in others. He does not think 'well, gee, I'd say that action is righteous according to the True Knowledge Guide to Righteousness'. These are certain truths that are felt in the mind, not calculated.
A person can only 'feel' honor and righteousness, when he knows and comprehends what it is. It is not an emotion. Anyway, I can imagine a Bretonnian knight saying just your above statement... ;)

NakedFisherman
13-10-2006, 23:39
A person can only 'feel' honor and righteousness, when he knows and comprehends what it is.

This doesn't stop it from existing, however. They're something that some people can feel. Even if they can't feel them, metaphysically the righteousness and honor still exist.


It is not an emotion.

I don't think I ever called it such. :D

RobC
14-10-2006, 11:58
Honour and righteousness are not emotions. They're moral concepts that evoke different emotions in different people. Honour for example might evoke a sense of pride, satisfaction, even disdain for those less honourable. A fodder for the gods its role is very tiny indeed when compared to the four basic, primal emotions.

Verm1s
14-10-2006, 13:34
The former is usually based on the point of view of a bunch of ****** who don't know better, whilst the latter is a "scientific" examination of the theological make-up of the Warhammer World that can't be achieved unless you're not actually part of it.

You do realise how ludicrous that statement sounds? In fact, it's made me realise how ludicrous most of this topic is. I'm getting strong images of Simpsons comic-book guy here.

But for the record, I largely agree with Wu Ming's posts.

NakedFisherman
14-10-2006, 13:36
Honour and righteousness are not emotions. They're moral concepts that evoke different emotions in different people. Honour for example might evoke a sense of pride, satisfaction, even disdain for those less honourable. A fodder for the gods its role is very tiny indeed when compared to the four basic, primal emotions.

Agreed. However, keep in mind I never said they were emotions. :p

The vices and virtues of men, to paraphrase the 7th Edition rulebook, are what give the gods their vigor. It's not so much fodder or provender as it seems to be cake and wine -- especially in the post-SoC era. :D

A neutral shade of black.
14-10-2006, 15:13
You do realise how ludicrous that statement sounds?

Yep. Hence the quote marks.

Rathgar
14-10-2006, 20:57
Let's look at Hashut. We know little or nothing about his genesis, so its possible and even probable that he may well have existed in some form or another before Dwarfs ever turned to Chaos. No-one is saying that every deity is created on spec and over night be any new group of mortals. What we could have, however, is an already existing god or independent daemon or whatever, who for whatever reason is attracted to the Dwarf mentality and the emotions Dwarfs have. This would mean that this god or daemon also has some traits to him that are part of the Dwarf psyche, and so he would be attractive or compelling in some way to some Dwarfs in particular circumstances.

He may have appeared to the Dwarfs as he is today, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that the faith, expectations, purposes and emotions of the corrupted Dwarfs re-inforce all that make him up, and more than this, they help define his existence further. Perhaps Hashut is even more Chaos Dwarf-centric in his views and purposes now than he was when he was first dicovered by the Dwarfs. We don't know, but it seems likely. But the process is symbiotic, as he comes closer to the Dwarfs, the Dwarfs come closer to him, one begins to define the other until we have a chicken-and-egg scenario.

There's also the fact that Hashut has probably consumed more than a few Dwarf souls in his time, and so this would probably have had an effect on him as well.

This is similar thinking to that which I posted at the beginning of this thread on Hashut origins. Admittedly it’s my pet theory so I’m biased, but I think it make sense to lump Hashut, the Horned Rat (plus possibly Zuvassin and the hypothetical Fimir one god) in two one special category. These Gods existed in potential for some time before their associated races sprung up. I think they embodied (and still do) concepts associated with the emerging drive towards more sophisticated society and civilisation. Of course, at first they’d be nothing more than echoes or warp ghosts by the catalyst of an assemblage of souls the entity has an affinity for in dire circumstances and in need of salvation leads to the echoes rise to Godhood and the emergence of a new and distinct race/cultural group.

This is why I believe its right to term Hashut and the Horned Rat as Chaos Gods rather than simply lesser concept or race gods; their spheres of influence are much more universal than that. For example Hashut is Khorne (will to dominate, hate), Tzeentch (change, progress) and Nurgle (fed by the sorrow of the dwarfs) but he’s refracted through the lens of civilisation somewhat, just as the Horned Rat is.

Grunge
15-10-2006, 13:12
I'm glad we are back on topic. 9 pages after :p

My point from the beginning was to figure out if there was any certanty to who Hashut was, as in where did he came from and what did he stand for. I became quite angry with the statement on the CD army list PDF saying the Chaos Dwarfs live in great cities and plan their "overthrow of the west and eventual dominion of the world".Thats just too simple for a race who can build rockets and master "genetic engeneering" :p

I reckon now no one knows much of Hashut. At least not oficially.

MvS
15-10-2006, 13:53
No indeed. Not officially.*

Hashut seems to serve much the same purpose as the Horned Rat, in terms of motivation within the imagery. They both possess many different traits that are found in the Big Four, and I think therefore represent the general push of Chaos to overrun the mortal world through whatever means.

There may be very particular traits that seem pretty specific to Hashut, but at the same time we can say with confidence that Hashut is very definitely a Chaos God, a 'Daemon God', and that he has an agenda that can only aid the Big Four in the long run, whether or not that is Hashut's, or the Chaos Dwarves, actual intention.





*Although I seem to remember that in Liber Chaotica Khorne the author drew some correlation between Hashut and Khorne, although this was 'in-character' and part of the ravings of a mad priest who didn't necessarily know any better...

;)

Ozymandiass
17-10-2006, 00:06
I don't know what's worse. All of you arguing over metaphysics in a fictional universe or the fact that I've been enthralled by it for 10 pages instead of getting my work done.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

DisruptorX
17-10-2006, 06:25
No indeed. Not officially.*

Hashut seems to serve much the same purpose as the Horned Rat, in terms of motivation within the imagery. They both possess many different traits that are found in the Big Four, and I think therefore represent the general push of Chaos to overrun the mortal world through whatever means.

There may be very particular traits that seem pretty specific to Hashut, but at the same time we can say with confidence that Hashut is very definitely a Chaos God, a 'Daemon God', and that he has an agenda that can only aid the Big Four in the long run, whether or not that is Hashut's, or the Chaos Dwarves, actual intention.


The "big four" are all part of the same "entity" or thing. Chaos does not really have any rhyme or reason in the long term, other than adding the rest of the warhammer world to the realm of chaos. You make it sound like there is a conspiracy or concious effort on the part of the chaos gods, which seems a little out of character.

I would agree that the Horned Rat and Hashut are lesser chaos gods, though.

Autobot HQ
17-10-2006, 08:30
Yea, MvS, go learn bout chaos before posting your thoughts!! ... Wait ... Never mind :p

DisruptorX
17-10-2006, 08:44
Yea, MvS, go learn bout chaos before posting your thoughts!! ... Wait ... Never mind :p

I wasn't really correcting him so much as disagreeing with the way he put that the other chaos gods "created" Hashut. It wouldn't work that way.

Zzarchov
17-10-2006, 12:12
See I don't like this psyco-babble using modern concepts to explain "chaos".

I like the old school FANTASY system for a fantasy game better. The Chaos gods are a Pantheon, like the classical greek gods. They don't need mortals (a humo-centric view that is absurd and creeping in), Mortals merely amuse them so they toy around in our universe, like a kid poking an ant-hill with a stick. And no matter how much the ants think the Kid needs their actions and worship to exist, in reality he doesn't. IF they don't amuse him he will merely wander off.

Hashut and the Great Horned one are merely other kids trying to edge into the circle of kids cause "I wanna see too! Let me poke the hill!"

Ulric and all the good gods are the kids sitting around saying "Hey, leave the poor ants alone"

NakedFisherman
17-10-2006, 12:41
I like the old school FANTASY system for a fantasy game better. The Chaos gods are a Pantheon, like the classical greek gods. They don't need mortals (a humo-centric view that is absurd and creeping in), Mortals merely amuse them so they toy around in our universe, like a kid poking an ant-hill with a stick. And no matter how much the ants think the Kid needs their actions and worship to exist, in reality he doesn't. IF they don't amuse him he will merely wander off.

Hashut and the Great Horned one are merely other kids trying to edge into the circle of kids cause "I wanna see too! Let me poke the hill!"

Ulric and all the good gods are the kids sitting around saying "Hey, leave the poor ants alone"

That's essentially how it is. Mortals unwittingly empower the gods as the gods sow what's required to be empowered in mortals. The gods don't stumble on the ant hill -- they have a backyard full of ants, a lot of which they fed or at least allowed to grow.

metro_gnome
17-10-2006, 12:52
Hashut and the Great Horned one are merely other kids trying to edge into the circle of kids cause "I wanna see too! Let me poke the hill!"
but in a way doesn't this make it seem like hashut and the GHR are trying harder...
and are perhaps a little more interested in the warhmmer realm...
if the big four are infinite... then there are other ant hills (worlds) that draw their attention...
whereas Hashut and GHR are quite happy with the one they have...

now coming back to the question of Chaotic...
doesn't this focus show us how these lesser gods are less chaotic than the Big 4?
and by extension how other race gods Sigmar, Shyalla, Khaine, Grungi may be even less chaotic Hashut?

DisruptorX
17-10-2006, 13:17
See I don't like this psyco-babble using modern concepts to explain "chaos".

The Holy Trinity is not even close to a modern concept. ;)

A pantheon is actually much more "humo-centric"(anthro-centric?), as it assumes that the gods are merely more powerful, humanlike beings.

MvS
17-10-2006, 14:07
I wasn't really correcting him so much as disagreeing with the way he put that the other chaos gods "created" Hashut.
I said that? :confused:

*checks post...*

I guess I could have worded it better. I meant that the purposes of Hashut and the Horned Rat would, in the long run, help serve the puposes of the Big Four too, whether these 'lesser' gods mean for that to happen of not.


I agree entirely with your other point about the Trinity concept, or the 'Many-In-One' or 'One-In-Many' divinity. This idea has been around for God alone knows how many thousands of years (pun intended by the way). If anything it isn't 'psycho-babble' so much as 'theo-babble'. ;)

The GW's 'anthro-centric' notion of how gods are formed and why they do what they do is more a reflection of the mood GW wanted to create rather than just a fan attempt at 'rationalising' a fantasy world theology. To really strip away all the complexity and colour of the debates and put them in their starkest form, GW's basic intention for the nature of Chaos (as has been explained by various GW luminaries in web-posts and magazines) was to create the idea of 'humanity against itself'.

Although in the most obvious way we have gods and daemons playing with the fates of hapless mortals, in fact when we look at the supposed nature of these Gods and daemons we find that they are an analogy for humanity preying on itself. All the fears, cruelties and follies of humans are made manifest in the Warp, then come back to haunt humans in very real ways. The more humans let their emotions control them to corrosive degrees, the harder the Gods and daemons will come after them. I suppose this is the picture of the Chaos Realm as a manifestation of a kind of Collective Id of humanity.

Simplisticly put, I know, but that's the basic foundation that GW's Chaos imagery builds upon.

Zzarchov:

Lots of people in the hobby seem to prefer the slightly more high fantasy 'Greek Pantheon' approach. So you're by no means alone. :)

Metro_Gnome:

I suppose that in a way gods like Hashut and the Horned Rat are 'lesser' than the Big Four, both in terms of power/influence and in terms of how chaotic (note the small 'c') they are. They are more particular in the sense of the races they have adopted/been adopted by, and they seek more specific things as well. The Big Four have whole swathes of interest areas and have followers from many different races. I mean you won't get an Elf worshipping the Horned Rat, and it's very unlikely that a sane human would either, but you would and do get humans and elves worshipping Slaanesh (say).

Autobot HQ:

What can I say, it's been like this ever since I stopped taking the meds...

:D

Zzarchov
17-10-2006, 19:33
The Holy Trinity is not even close to a modern concept. ;)

A pantheon is actually much more "humo-centric"(anthro-centric?), as it assumes that the gods are merely more powerful, humanlike beings.

I've never found a priest who says the holy trinity only exists because it its worshipped (or fed emotions in some other way) though ;)

I just really prefer the Lovecraftian "Humanity doesn't matter" approach. The chaos gods don't care if you worship them or not beyond amusement, they don't gain power from it..its just fun.

And the biggest and scariest chaos gods never bother to show themselves to humanity, you'd never know they existed till they destroyed all on a whim, or perhaps unintentionally..never noticing the comparatively pathetic human universe existed.

Revlid
17-10-2006, 21:58
I've never found a priest who says the holy trinity only exists because it its worshipped (or fed emotions in some other way) though ;)

I just really prefer the Lovecraftian "Humanity doesn't matter" approach. The chaos gods don't care if you worship them or not beyond amusement, they don't gain power from it..its just fun.

And the biggest and scariest chaos gods never bother to show themselves to humanity, you'd never know they existed till they destroyed all on a whim, or perhaps unintentionally..never noticing the comparatively pathetic human universe existed.

Such gods do exist... But not in Fantasy (not counting the Old Ones). In 40k, the C'tan don't need worshippers, as they are entirely material beings. And its quite possible that even bigger C'tan exist who simply aren't bothered with this universe.

However, the idea that worshippers (or at least, living beings that have emotions) don't matter simply doesn't work with the Chaos Gods. They are beings of the Realm of Chaos, a plane of existence that is entirely fueled by the emotions of living beings.

The Lovecraftian gods don't need worshippers because they aren't Gods at all, just immensely powerful beings. But where would a God of War and Rage be if there were no living beings, and therefore, no war? He would be nothing. The whole point of being a god is to have the largest number of worshippers. A god without worshippers is almost nothing.
Not quite nothing, because a warp-echo of him (or her) will exist, tied to cave-paintings or the verse of an old song or a carving on a tree, that would allow him to be worshipped again and grow in power.

In summary: If everyone in Fantasy were hippies who never felt anger or hurt anyone else, how strong do you think Khorne would be?

MvS
17-10-2006, 23:56
I've never found a priest who says the holy trinity only exists because it its worshipped (or fed emotions in some other way) though
Nor would you in the Warhammer world. We're taking a Above-Gods' eye view.

But let's not mix real world with Warhammer too much... ;)


I just really prefer the Lovecraftian "Humanity doesn't matter" approach. The chaos gods don't care if you worship them or not beyond amusement, they don't gain power from it..its just fun.
I know what you mean. That's an excellent imagery and very Warhammer in many ways. But I think it's for this reason that the imagery is so adaptable.

Revlid:

Amen.

NakedFisherman
18-10-2006, 00:45
The whole point of being a god is to have the largest number of worshippers. A god without worshippers is almost nothing.

Gods don't need worshippers. They just want the emotions and feelings...

People and creatures dedicated to creating said emotions and feelings are definitely on their A-list, though.

Zzarchov
18-10-2006, 02:08
I think it would be better if they didn't need the feelings.

If they need the mortals they aren't truly worthy of the term "gods".

Chaos Parasites would be a better term. Chaos GODS should be above such things.

A chaos GOD of war wouldn't feed off of war, he would CAUSE war. If there was no fighting it wouldn't mean he'd starve and die, If there was no fighting it would mean that he had gotten bored and left.

Thats what I mean when I say this sense of the gods NEEDING humans seems off.

Khorne shouldn't need to cause humans to fight to grow, his prescence should corrupt humans into fighting..without any change to him.

NakedFisherman
18-10-2006, 02:42
I think it would be better if they didn't need the feelings.

Well, really, the Aethyr exists with or without the emotions and feelings of the unwitting pawns that mortals are.


A chaos GOD of war wouldn't feed off of war, he would CAUSE war. If there was no fighting it wouldn't mean he'd starve and die, If there was no fighting it would mean that he had gotten bored and left.

Well, they're a bit more self-sufficient. If there isn't enough war and rage to please Khorne, he'll sow a little bit in mankind and othe races. Even if there is enough, he'll sow a little more. Like I said before, it's more cake and wine than provender.

Zzarchov
18-10-2006, 03:04
See, I don't buy that, I think war is just what happens when your near Khorne.

Its not like he actively sows war, its more that he exhudes it.

In the same way a smelly guy doesn't actively cause stink, its just that if you are near him, you will smell the stank.

Likewise merely being "near" khorne makes people fight, being "near" Nurgle makes them get sick, being "near" Slaanesh makes them obsessed with lifes pleasures, etc

If you took out the Chaos gods humans wouldn't generate new ones with their emotions in the Aethyr,

Humans just wouldn't Fight, Get sick, etc etc and would live in happy utopia land.

That make sense?

NakedFisherman
18-10-2006, 03:24
Humans just wouldn't Fight, Get sick, etc etc and would live in happy utopia land.

That make sense?

It's a bit more cyclical than that. The races, as created by the Old Ones, had insurmountable flaws, which is why they created many different races. They aren't mindless robots waiting for their buttons to be pushed by the gods. They act on their own, and their actions are often flawed.

CommanderCax
18-10-2006, 08:58
Well, really, the Aethyr exists with or without the emotions and feelings of the unwitting pawns that mortals are.

You are a stubborn fisherman, aren't you? ;)

The aethyr indeed exists without the emotions and feelings of mortals, but the whirlpools within the aethyr, that sometimes grow to warpstorms, do not exist without the emotions of mortals. The aethyr is like a pond with the emotions of mortals being small stones thrown into it forming ripples thereby. These ripples can grow to full warpstorms when enough stones are thrown so to speak.

I'm too lazy to qoute all those sentences from RoS and RoC again, but both are quite clear in regard to this. Just one exampel from RoS:

Just as the Gods themselves are created and shaped by mortal endeavours and expectations...

Revlid
18-10-2006, 09:51
I think it would be better if they didn't need the feelings.

And I think it would be better if Chaos Dwarfs had an army book. Alas, for neither of us have what we want.



If they need the mortals they aren't truly worthy of the term "gods".

Tell that to them. :rolleyes:

NakedFisherman
18-10-2006, 13:53
The aethyr indeed exists without the emotions and feelings of mortals, but the whirlpools within the aethyr, that sometimes grow to warpstorms, do not exist without the emotions of mortals.

That's pretty much what I said already. The gods inevitably will exist when there's mortals on the world, and when there isn't it doesn't matter much anymore because they have nothing to influence.

Despite my equivocal statements, you'll notice that I'm often precise with my words.

Rathgar
20-10-2006, 14:34
I mean you won't get an Elf worshipping the Horned Rat, and it's very unlikely that a sane human would either, but you would and do get humans and elves worshipping Slaanesh (say).

No I donít agree with that. Hashut and the Horned ratís concept/emotional/belief base is much wider than their affiliated race. There Chaotic gods by the fact that theyíre your psycheís dark side coming back at you and kicking you in the face, not because they act in a way thatís chaotic or that in some way there furthering the big fours goals.

Iíve been arguing that the Horned Ratís sphere is politicking, intrigue, backstabbing, selfishness. So he can very easily draw from races other than the Skaven or possibly even gain outright converts. I agree its very unlikely that heíll be worshiped in his rodent form. But Iím sure he has enough theological masks to ensure heís a tempting patron for politicians and liars regardless of race.

Gres
20-10-2006, 15:36
Iíve been arguing that the Horned Ratís sphere is politicking, intrigue, backstabbing, selfishness. So he can very easily draw from races other than the Skaven or possibly even gain outright converts. I agree its very unlikely that heíll be worshiped in his rodent form. But Iím sure he has enough theological masks to ensure heís a tempting patron for politicians and liars regardless of race.
Along a similar line of thought could the Horned Rat and Hashut be (Or at least have the potential to be) the proto version of a new, more general god should its influence spread to other races? Could Hashut eventually become the Chaos god of nightmarish industry for all races once technological progress on the scale of the industrial revolution begins to impact on humans and other races? Would the shift in the origin of the "worship" of the god change details and presonality of the central god and making them more "mainstream" chaos gods. In the 40k universe was Slaanesh (both born and unborn) different when primeraly worshiped by Eldar as opposed to Slaanesh in M41? Am I making any sense at all!?! ;)

MvS
20-10-2006, 15:45
Hashut and the Horned ratís concept/emotional/belief base is much wider than their affiliated race.
I agree entirely.

I meant that they wouldn't be worshipped in the form and in the way that their primary adopted 'races' would. Nor, I think, would someone sane choose to worship the Horned Rat in his purpose of promoting Skavendom.

This, as you have pointed out, is different from someone worshipping what amounts to being the Horned Rat but for different reasons and in a different way.


There Chaotic gods by the fact that theyíre your psycheís dark side coming back at you and kicking you in the face...{snip}...or that in some way there furthering the big fours goals.
Well... I think it's both really. But you make a good point.

Rathgar
20-10-2006, 16:54
I meant that they wouldn't be worshipped in the form and in the way that their primary adopted 'races' would. Nor, I think, would someone sane choose to worship the Horned Rat in his purpose of promoting Skavendom.

I see what you mean! Agreed.


Along a similar line of thought could the Horned Rat and Hashut be (Or at least have the potential to be) the proto version of a new, more general god should its influence spread to other races? Could Hashut eventually become the Chaos god of nightmarish industry for all races once technological progress on the scale of the industrial revolution begins to impact on humans and other races? Would the shift in the origin of the "worship" of the god change details and presonality of the central god and making them more "mainstream" chaos gods. In the 40k universe was Slaanesh (both born and unborn) different when primeraly worshiped by Eldar as opposed to Slaanesh in M41? Am I making any sense at all!?! ;)

That’s a really interesting line of thought, perhaps if we imagine the ‘birthing’ of Chaos gods in terms of the development of intelligence we can see a progression in the chaos powers.

If we imagine the first beings which are capable of thought, initially language and abstract concepts are impossible. All thought is simply shades of emotion. Then, as things get more sophisticated the beings become aware of their own existence, develop language to express their feelings and describe the physical world etc.

So, if the warp mirrors the mind in the beginning we simply have a sea of unconnected emotions. When we get the spark of sentence the warp vortices begin to form around primal emotions and concepts. We get Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, at least in a very primitive form (I imagine Nurgle in the very early days was the warps reaction to fear, as disappear and decay are slightly more advanced ideas). These three beings then coalesce with concepts similar to their own and being to dominate and collect smaller voracities under their spheres.

But our hypothetical beings are advancing, learning and becoming more sophisticated. I imagine at this point they’re at tribal level, and new concepts are emerging: loyalty, kinship, safety and happiness. Maybe there then comes some spark or special circumstance, or perhaps these new concepts are strong enough to carve out there own existence alone. Regardless; the prince of chaos is born and ascends to powers, in doing so and claiming a sphere he probably tears big chunks off the original three.

Now our beings are building cities and civilizations, they’re learning new concepts that life as tribes didn’t contain, and we’re seeing the early stages of entities that are slowly attempting to join the four at Chaos’ core.

MvS
20-10-2006, 17:29
LOL!

This is actually the discussion I tried and failed to start on my own thread about the ontology of the Big Four.

I'll pop over and smite that thread if possible in favour of the continuation of this one...

:)

RGB
20-10-2006, 18:03
So, if the warp mirrors the mind in the beginning we simply have a sea of unconnected emotions. When we get the spark of sentence the warp vortices begin to form around primal emotions and concepts. We get Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, at least in a very primitive form (I imagine Nurgle in the very early days was the warps reaction to fear, as disappear and decay are slightly more advanced ideas). These three beings then coalesce with concepts similar to their own and being to dominate and collect smaller vortices under their spheres.

That makes no more sense than saying "well, Taal and Ulric arose becaue of emotions and will later absorb Kjorn and Tchar". They were likely NOT visualised first. Humans are generally alright with even ambivalent and amoral deities, but Chaos Gods's gifts are so twisted they are nothing if not malevolent. It cannot see it as a natural progression from your explanation.


But our hypothetical beings are advancing, learning and becoming more sophisticated. I imagine at this point theyíre at tribal level, and new concepts are emerging: loyalty, kinship, safety and happiness. Maybe there then comes some spark or special circumstance, or perhaps these new concepts are strong enough to carve out there own existence alone. Regardless; the prince of chaos is born and ascends to powers, in doing so and claiming a sphere he probably tears big chunks off the original three.

Wrong. First, humanity would have invented Rhya of the White Arms, Rhya the Mother, Rhya the Queen of Harvests. Only then they'd have even had an inkiling of what Sla is.


Now our beings are building cities and civilizations, theyíre learning new concepts that life as tribes didnít contain, and weíre seeing the early stages of entities that are slowly attempting to join the four at Chaosí core.

So they insert new beings into the Aethyr, who JOIN the chaos gods? Why not instead split off their powers?

This natural progression thing makes no sense. It's all pure assumption. As a biased-perspective narrative and a therory that may or may not be false it's excellent. As a voice-of-the-author this-is-the-truth thing it makes no sense.

Rathgar
20-10-2006, 18:25
That makes no more sense than saying "well, Taal and Ulric arose becaue of emotions and will later absorb Kjorn and Tchar". They were likely NOT visualised first.

That’s different, the lesser gods as I’ve stated in my original post on this matter are either very very specific in what the stand for, or they embody abstract concepts about how sentient beings perceive the world, not about what these beings are all feel. Ulric can never ascend to the level as the big four as he’s a deity associated with cold and battle primarily rather than hate and violence.


Humans are generally alright with even ambivalent and amoral deities, but Chaos Gods's gifts are so twisted they are nothing if not malevolent. It cannot see it as a natural progression from your explanation.

No we’re not alright. If you take our core emotions and amplify them you get a complete crazy bastards. There the amalgamation of vast quantities of their core concepts witch is why they’re so extreme and ‘warped’.

The concepts they embody are universal, so even if they are other more rational restrains they’re going to vanish into obscurity when you fuse it all together.

If we imagine you average human has drives like this:

Base emotions (rage etc)||||||||||||||||||||||
(other stuff)|||||||||||||||
(other stuff)||||||||||||||
(other stuff)|||||||||||||||||
(other stuff)|||||||||||||

Which will vary between different people, but base drives will always be the largest component. So if you add up the entirety of the human race you get this (note the bars below are on a far less magnified scale:

Base emotions |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||
(other stuff)|||||||||||||
(other stuff)|||||||||||||
(other stuff)|||||||||||||
(other stuff)|||||||||||||





Wrong. First, humanity would have invented Rhya of the White Arms, Rhya the Mother, Rhya the Queen of Harvests. Only then they'd have even had an inkiling of what Sla is.

I don’t agree at all. They’ll have experience pleasure before they started to put personification on natures fertility. And decides you seem to be misunderstanding me, they wouldn’t have invented Slaanesh, he’d just have arisen as the warps natural response to the sophistication of their psyches.



So they insert new beings into the Aethyr, who JOIN the chaos gods? Why not instead split off their powers?

I meant reach a level on par with them. Sorry bad wording on my part.


This natural progression thing makes no sense. It's all pure assumption. As a biased-perspective narrative and a therory that may or may not be false it's excellent. As a voice-of-the-author this-is-the-truth thing it makes no sense.

Never claimed I was right, I was giving you my take on it.

Drasanil
20-10-2006, 20:39
No I donít agree with that. Hashut and the Horned ratís concept/emotional/belief base is much wider than their affiliated race. There Chaotic gods by the fact that theyíre your psycheís dark side coming back at you and kicking you in the face, not because they act in a way thatís chaotic or that in some way there furthering the big fours goals.

Speaking of "civilised chaos gods" like the Horned Rat or Hashut, for lack of a better term, I get the distinct impression Khaine is becoming such an entity, and not in the bland Khaine-Khorne sense.

Orginaly Khaine was viewed as the elven god of war, violence, and death(Morai-Heg is the goddess of souls and fate, but not death itself as far as I can tell). But since the sundering he has become the focus of an entire civilisation, which is majoritarily living their lives by his creed. Infact the Witch King's creation of a naturalist society in which the strongest survive to the detriment of weakest, seems to be 'molding' him into a god of civilisation in the same vain of Hashut(industry) and the Horned Rat(politicking/treachery). In essence Khaine's becoming and/or aquiring a new portfolio as a god of the merciless society in which all notions of fairness and/or compation are left behind in the persuit to achieve racial/social perfection, a dark utopia of sorts ruled by the 'perfect' mortal.

Sorry if this seems a little crude, but the notion only recently came to me when I was reading some of Rathgar's first posts in this thread. I'll try to refine it some more. But what do you guys think of it?

MvS
20-10-2006, 23:04
I'm with Rathgar.

The Big Four Chaos Gods are supposed to be founded on the most basic feelings of mortals. These feelings are not sophisticated and they are pre-civilisation and rational intelligence. 'Harvest' requires planting and agriculture, long before we have a notion of the Mother of the Harvests we have the feelings of contenments from eating food when hungry. That is the pre-sensate beginning of Slaanesh...

RGB
20-10-2006, 23:35
Don't understand or agree with that position at all. Humans knew what "food" is a long time before they conceptualised the word "pleasure". And Sla in his current form is twisted pleasure that can only be achieved when in a certain state of mind - clearly a much later, more sophisticated concept.

Before men woshipped Sla they worshipped Rhya. Before they worshipped Rhya, they worshipped Taal. Before they worshipped Taal they worshipped the sun.

These "pre-intelligence emotions" are not at all basal - they are complicated concepts. And of course nothing is more artificial or sophisticated than trying to divide the vast variety of human emotional nuance into four neat categories; not even a goddess dedicated to justice. In the 20th century we've barely managed to start classifying emotion - based mostly on molecular data. Prehistoric, pre-civilisation Warhammer humans wouldn't have had an inkling about how to divide their emotions into four groups. The history of the place seems to confirm it as well.

MvS
21-10-2006, 01:35
Depending on one's viewpoint, at their most basic, sentient creatures are all either pain minimisers or pleasure maximisers. I believe that whereas an animal might be a pain minimiser, intelligent forms of life that are increasingly 'off' the foodchain as it were, begin to drift more towards pleasure maximising. This happens even before they have sophisticated concepts or complex language.

The rejection of pain or displeasure and the pursuit of the opposite is the root of Slaanesh. This is the sentient process that, I would say, begins the ripples within the Aethyr that will later grow and grow to become Slaanesh. But everything has to start somewhere.

NakedFisherman
21-10-2006, 03:15
I agree with MvS. It's the old Hobbesian view of motivations.

Some creatures and people are obviously more base (an obese burgher with his concubines) than others (a priest of Morr).

Rathgar
21-10-2006, 10:34
Orginaly Khaine was viewed as the elven god of war, violence, and death(Morai-Heg is the goddess of souls and fate, but not death itself as far as I can tell). But since the sundering he has become the focus of an entire civilisation, which is majoritarily living their lives by his creed. Infact the Witch King's creation of a naturalist society in which the strongest survive to the detriment of weakest, seems to be 'molding' him into a god of civilisation in the same vain of Hashut(industry) and the Horned Rat(politicking/treachery). In essence Khaine's becoming and/or aquiring a new portfolio as a god of the merciless society in which all notions of fairness and/or compation are left behind in the persuit to achieve racial/social perfection, a dark utopia of sorts ruled by the 'perfect' mortal.

Sorry if this seems a little crude, but the notion only recently came to me when I was reading some of Rathgar's first posts in this thread. I'll try to refine it some more. But what do you guys think of it?

Thatís interesting. In my original comment about Khaine I stated he didnít fit as he didnít have a race with which he had strongly affiliated and shaped/been shaped by. But I suppose if you think about it the Dark Elves could fit the profile. I guess we could lump him under this Ďsociological godí idea that seems to be emerging, but Iím not sure to what extent heís chaotic.

Hashut, the Horned Rat, Zuvassin etc are definitely Chaos gods and defiantly embody aspect universal to civilization. Khaineís a different beast entirely.

He actually seems to have three face: the high elf one of Ďviolence as a necessityí, the dark elf one of Ďsophisticated and institutionalised killingí and the human one Ďthe act of murderí.

Iím going to think about this one a bit, then offer further views.

RGB
22-10-2006, 06:41
Depending on one's viewpoint, at their most basic, sentient creatures are all either pain minimisers or pleasure maximisers.

And whose view may that be? Intelligence is a precursor to sophisticated emotions. Hope and Despair are utterly dependent upon the ability to make consistent predictions about your universe. If you can't predict, you feel neither. However, you don't AT ALL need to be able to predict anything, or even think, to find food. Pain and pleasure require good neural systems, but food doesn't at all.

Protozoans do it expertly but I wouldn't accuse them of creating Slaneesh.

Food is far more basal - by a few billions of years - to "hope", "despair" and "pleasure". Emerging from their natural state, man would be intimately acquanted with food, but probably not at all with hope, nor despair. Besides, a full stomach is not the thing that created Sla.

Rathgar
22-10-2006, 09:55
And whose view may that be? Intelligence is a precursor to sophisticated emotions. Hope and Despair are utterly dependent upon the ability to make consistent predictions about your universe. If you can't predict, you feel neither. However, you don't AT ALL need to be able to predict anything, or even think, to find food. Pain and pleasure require good neural systems, but food doesn't at all.

Protozoans do it expertly but I wouldn't accuse them of creating Slaneesh.

Food is far more basal - by a few billions of years - to "hope", "despair" and "pleasure". Emerging from their natural state, man would be intimately acquanted with food, but probably not at all with hope, nor despair. Besides, a full stomach is not the thing that created Sla.

But at that level (single cell organism) you have absolutely no concept of what food is! You can’t even form concepts, as everyone’s been trying to get across to you; its emotions and sentience that the crux of this matter.

To use your example, as soon as life develops the ‘neural network’ to actually feel emotion or reason its basic though process is going to be:

Food = Good.

Not:

Food = Hum, food is obviously vital to my existence. Therefore there must be some abstract deity that provides or acts as auditor to the entire concept of food and making sure I get it. Perhaps I should worship this individual.

MvS
22-10-2006, 11:06
And whose view may that be?
For a start, it's a major part of various strands of behaviourist psychology.

Sigmund Freud wrote prolifically about humanity in terms on the dual pressures of the repression and sublimation of instinct and their primary influence on and interference with human nature. These pressures, so Freud suggested, can lead to civilisation, in the sense that while we're not just attacking everyone we don't like the look of and raping everyone we do like the look of, we can start building communities and trust, and also develop more complex social relations like altruism and friendship. But he also postulated that the repression of our basic pleasure-maximising desires, and our violent drives towards those we see as threatening in any sense, can lead to a sort of misery and even psychosis.

Anyway, let's not get into a big debate on Freudian psychology. Suffice to say I don't just invent references out of the air.

As for the rest, I generally agree with Rathgar. If you take a look at the biological systems of all animals there is always a reward mechanism of some sort for those actions that aid in its survival and/or the survival of species (eating, mating, etc). This mechanism, though very primal and basic, could be described as a form of pleasure, contentment or fulfilment. It feels 'nice'.

CommanderCax
22-10-2006, 11:55
Wrong. First, humanity would have invented Rhya of the White Arms, Rhya the Mother, Rhya the Queen of Harvests. Only then they'd have even had an inkiling of what Sla is.

I don't think so. Most apes for example do know quite well what pleasure is and some are even pleasure-seekers par excellence, but they cannot grasp the concept of 'harvest' in the sense of investing some food for more food to a later timepoint. The same is thought of the first hominids.

Furthermore Taal is not a god of 'food', so saying an organism knew about food before grasping the concept of pleasure, and therefore Taal existed before Slaanesh, is perhaps a bit far-fetched.

RobC
22-10-2006, 12:44
Agreed with Cax and MvS. 'Desire' (for food, the opposite sex, whatever) is a primal concept. A nature goddess is several rungs lower down the primacy ladder.

And, regarding Rhya, it's only fanfic that suggests she is the 'natural' goddess of the Warhammer world. All gods are warpspawn, in my eyes.

RGB
23-10-2006, 20:06
As for the rest, I generally agree with Rathgar. If you take a look at the biological systems of all animals there is always a reward mechanism of some sort for those actions that aid in its survival and/or the survival of species (eating, mating, etc). This mechanism, though very primal and basic, could be described as a form of pleasure, contentment or fulfilment. It feels 'nice'.

Firstly, I see you avoided answering the real questions in the other thread. Secondly, if what you say were true, Sla would be a harmless god. He is not. He is a well-defined malevolent personality that is quite incapable of just being a god of a full stomach. He is never mentioned as the god of a harvest; he is not associated with the Hunt. He has no function as a god of Childbirth. At least, nobody has written it so to this day. There is also no evidence of the Chaos Gods being the first gods of any living being; they were mute and undefined; everyone worshipped their own gods that corresponded to pleasures of the full stomach, the sated lust and the propagation of the seed just as fully as the Big Four.

I can give you lots of examples where an organism needs no reinforcement to do a certain function; all organisms lacking sophisticated nervous systems in fact don't. Desire, when described and similar to what Sla is, is not a primal "concept". It's a sophisticated, moralistic concept. Desire itself, not conceptualised but mechanical, is limited to animals with sophisticated nervous systems. Is the mechanical desire enough to spawn Sla? Is he a blind and bland force of Nature? All evidence in army books points in the opposite direction. Despite the adherents' claims to the contrary, he is a well-deifined and therefore limited god.

Rathgar
23-10-2006, 20:11
Firstly, I see you avoided answering the real questions in the other thread. Secondly, if what you say were true, Sla would be a harmless god. He is not. He is a well-defined malevolent personality that is quite incapable of just being a god of a full stomach.


You're really not grasping it are you? Slaanesh is the god of the full spectrum of emotions and concepts that can be broadly linked to pleasure, therefore he’s the god of a full stomach AND the god of S&M, and millions of other pleasurable experiences. He’s also made up of the sum of those emotions from all beings, hence his extreme personality.

RGB
23-10-2006, 20:37
No, you're not grasping it. You are happy with a defective explanation.

If he were truly god of the entire spectrum he would exhibit himself as the entire spectrum. He doesn't. He is very limited in his expression. If his "extreme personality" is the only thing precenting him from being the god of Afternoon Tea and the Hearthfire, then you must, for some bizzare reason, disagree that the total must be proportionally similar to the sum of the parts.

Rathgar
23-10-2006, 20:55
If he were truly god of the entire spectrum he would exhibit himself as the entire spectrum. He doesn't. He is very limited in his expression. If his "extreme personality" is the only thing precenting him from being the god of Afternoon Tea and the Hearthfire, then you must, for some bizzare reason, disagree that the total must be proportionally similar to the sum of the parts.

He does express himself as the full spectrum. But if your referring to ‘direct manifestations- like how he shapes his daemons; its like the Atlantic ocean falling on your head, it crushes you to pieces regardless of the fact its made up of countless tiny drops. He’s feed by the full spectrum, but his personality is the sum of the emotions fed into him, and hence he appears extreme.

MvS
24-10-2006, 01:48
if what you say were true, Sla would be a harmless god.
Not at all. The Chaos Gods are ancient and complex, and they are not just evil 'Bad Guys'. It is their nature that makes them evil to the mortal world, not just their decisions 'Ooh I think I'm going to Smite him today, just because I'm eeeeeevil!!'.

They are absolute and extreme personifications of all those things that define sensate and intelligent mortal life. The relationship between Aethyr and the mortal plane is symbiotic.

To use a well-worn (and rather wordy) analogy, if one uses a pressure cooker in a kitchen with no ventilation, quite soon all the windows in the kitchen become covered with condensation. The temperature in the room will gets warmner and more humid, and things start to get damp. This is not question of the water that has evaporated from the cooker consciously coming back to haunt the kitchen, it is just the natural consequence of boiling water in an airless room with glass windows.

One might say that mortals in the Warhammer imagery are similar to pressure cookers, and that all their psychical emanations (be they feelings, drives, emotions, needs, thoughts or whatever) are like steam pouring from them. This vapour is trapped within the airless room that is the 'place' where their minds meet the Aethyr. This psychical condensation could be seen as the very beginnings of the 'divine' Aethyric vortices, senselessly reflecting back upon the airless room of mortal minds the 'water vapour' emotions that they first generated, making the mortals even 'hotter', and thereby causing them to give off more of the same emotion that started the process in the first place.

In time, all this psychic 'condensation' creates the perfect environment for consciousness and intelligence to grow within the Aethyr. Long before these Aethyric vortices become intelligent and self aware, they first attain basic drives and needs, similar, in their own way, to the drives and needs of such lower forms of life as plants. So now we have little shoots of consciousness growing upon the warm damp of the psychic 'condensation' where mortal minds meet the Aethyr.

Like a plant that leans towards the sun as it travels across the sky (not a conscious action, and yet still an action of a living thing), these shoots of basic intelligence within the Aethyr's vortices begin to lean towards those people and emotions that best nourish them. So a vortex of anger might 'lean' more towards those people who get angry most easily; the vortex of pleasure and ecstasy might lean more towards hedonists or those with heightened or more acute senses; the vortex for hope or restlessness leans more towards those optimistic or ambitious people; and the Aethyr's vortices of fear and misery might lean more towards those people who are of a more nervous or depressive disposition.

This natural-though-metaphysical process promotes even more specific reaction in mortals, because where before the 'condensation' of the emotions that were reflected back from the Aethyr were diffused and did not target any one person over another, the embryonic intelligences developing within the Aethyr's vortices actually lean towards specific mortals, feeding off their emotions, and thereby promoting more acute versions of those emotions within those mortals.

So whereas the general miasma of anger that is reflected back from an anger vortex may affect all mortals to some small degree, the burgeoning intelligence of the steadily growing anger vortex will deliberately begin to lean towards those people who are more prone to anger, and to a certain degree ignore those who are not.

So the process continues, with all mortal anger feeding the burgeoning intelligence of the anger vortex, while the anger vortex specifically 'leans' towards angry people making them ever angrier, and so on and so on.

This process is continual, and as it continues, the Aethyric vortices’ intelligences slowly climb the ladder of Reason towards consciousness, promoting the emotions and concepts they personify more and more acutely, while becoming more and more specific in the mortal beings they target. Eventually, the day comes when they reach a level of intelligence whereby they realise "I am", and become fully self-aware.

There is little or nothing that mortals can do to stop this process, because, similar an avalanche, by the time mortals innocently going about their business realise that there is an entity outside themselves encouraging them to do things, that entity has already achieved intelligence and is too powerful to stop or just 'uncreate'.


I can give you lots of examples where an organism needs no reinforcement to do a certain function
There really is no need.

all organisms lacking sophisticated nervous systems in fact don't.
If you check back I was referring to the biological systems of animals. Granted there might be some question mark over just how far I was stretching the term 'animal' here, but just to clarify I was not talking about amoebas or protozoa. I was talking about everything from aphids to sperm whales to humans to dragons to elves (just to stick with the Warhammer imagery).


Desire, when described and similar to what Sla is, is not a primal "concept".
Slaanesh is the conscious and extreme end product of a very, very long process, that found its initial momentum in primal drives and has grown to include far more sohisticated and multi-layered concepts and emotions.

So how, you might ask, could a god based upon a harmless seeming and even positive sensation be 'bad'?

Well, if the gods need and want to promote in mortals those feeling, ideas (etc) that form them and give them power, then of course the more they can promote the better they like it. I see Slaanesh worship as comparable to addiction to a narcotic, and all the extremes that breeds. The more pleasurable the sensation the first few times it is experienced, the more eager some are to try it again. But with each time it is tried, the dependency for it grows while something of the sensation is lost. Eventually the drug must be sought just to bring oneself up to a normal state of mind and being, but the exquisite pleasure once received from it has long since gone.

So an imperial citizen might start along the path that leads to Slaanesh with innocent intentions, say in an attempt to better appreciate or produce artistry, but by merit of the fact that he has embraced Slaanesh his original intentions will soon be lost to a desperate craving for new sensations.

I like to imagine that Slaanesh heightens the pleasure of new converts, only to suck that pleasure away, along with ability to feel any real pleasure for anything, leaving in its place a terrible craving to experience something, anything, new. In this way, Slaaneshi converts are pushed to greater acts of sensualism, and eventually decadence, in a never-ending search to find some new pleasure in life. So it is not long before converts to Slaanesh become exceedingly jaded and increasingly desperate individuals.

But even while sucking all pleasure from his servants, Slaanesh still needs and requires his followers to promote and experience the sensations (etc) that he himself is a product of. And his drained and cynical converts are driven to seek aid from others who understand their terrible craving, and in doing so they invariably take the next step in their journey towards ultimate damnation. They swear themselves to Slaanesh body and soul in a magica/religious ritual of some kind and become dedicated worshippers and cultists, following Slaanesh before, and instead of, all other deities.

From this point Slaaneshi converts are given access to a whole new world of sensations that they would not necessarily have been able to experience in their normal lives. Every sensation, every vice, and every debauchery that the human or daemonic minds can conceive of are theirs to experience over time.

Resultantly, whatever residual beliefs or morals converts might have left over from their lives before dedicating themselves to Slaanesh are soon washed away by an unending flow of physical, intellectual and emotional pleasures.

So it is the absolute crystalline and unending extremity of drives, emotions and ideas that make the Chaos Gods so dangerous, destructive, callous and 'evil', not just because they sit around thinking up 'nasty' things to do to mortals.


Is he a blind and bland force of Nature?
He/she/it started as a blind, though perhaps not so bland force. Supposedly all the Chaos Gods did. This is about as 'canon' as you can get.


he is a well-deifined and therefore limited god.
Individually, all the Big Four Chaos Gods are limited. This isn't in question.

EDIT:
Rathgar summarised this far more simply than I.... dammit...

;)

MvS
24-10-2006, 02:05
Just briefly, to answer these points:


Intelligence is a precursor to sophisticated emotions. Hope and Despair are utterly dependent upon the ability to make consistent predictions about your universe. If you can't predict, you feel neither.
The point of my starting the 'ontology' thread was to look at what pre 'hope', 'anger', 'despair', 'ecstasy' elements helped form the pre-sensate, pre-conscious, Big Four. They are more than just these four emotions/feelings/concepts.

In extremis in fact.