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malika
28-06-2005, 15:28
Okay...this is something which popped up in my mind after CELS mentioned it on the ASP board. How the heck does an Ork Gargant walk with such short legs..there arent even legs, just two feet underneath the giant mechanical bloating body. How do Gargants move forward?

Ad-Hoc
28-06-2005, 15:41
Well the gargent looks like it does since its also an Idol to Gork n' Mork. I would suspect that for most of them their actually on tracks and the feet are just cosmetic. For some they might actually be walkers but the legs are hidden in a thick metalic 'skirt' which provides space for engines, guns, boyz n' uvver gubbinz.

Puffin Magician
28-06-2005, 15:41
I think an actual Gargant would have an armoured 'skirt' protecting the bulk of the walking mechanism, rather than the 'solid bell' shape we have now. It's simpler to model the flat bottom plate rather than lots of tiny worky bits. All the gears, pistons, superstructure and legs themselves are, IMO, all tucked away under the skirt that protects it nearly all the way to the ground.

Edit: Great minds think alike, eh AdHoc? ;)

They aren't very fast, capable of mere baby steps [although each one probably strides a good dozen meters at a time], and probably walks something similar to those wind-up toys that walk around with only two skinny, simplistic legs.

x-esiv-4c
28-06-2005, 16:02
They ambulate, shamble and clank. I'm assuming that the legs have a hydraulic system that allows the gargant to get the clearing it needs or else it would be immobilized very quickly. The new EPIC steam Gargant and a few of the Stompas are on tracks I believe.

Inquisitor Samos
28-06-2005, 16:11
Ever seen a movie or a television show of a mobile dredge "walker" crane? They move by sitting down on a belly plate lifting both "feet" and moving them slightly forward, then setting the "feet" down, lifting the belly clear and moving it slightly forward, repeat until they get where they're going. They're not terribly fast, but they do get there! I'd imagine some Gargants "walk" in the same way.

Alternatively, some of my old Gargant models clearly have treads on their "feet," indicating that they trundle along on huge tracks rather than walking.

Possibly, some Gargants can use a combination of both methods.

charlie_c67
28-06-2005, 16:17
If you or any of your mates has Final Liberation, there's a vid clip of a gargant walking on there. It's a waddle almost.

Ad-Hoc
28-06-2005, 16:31
Yeah but I've found that fools seldom differ :)

edit for not spam: Basically like most Orks it'll probably have several potential methods... depends on your mekboy

charlie_c67
28-06-2005, 16:33
Sorry? What's that to do with the price of fish? Be careful what you post lest it be held as spam by the =][=

Ikkaan
29-06-2005, 10:19
Well...i think the mechanism of a gargant is mostly about brute force...probably disfunctional if you look at it for proven engineering principles. But thats not the point. The Orks on board believe it will stomp its enemys, so it works. And if they paint it red it will walk even faster.

salty
29-06-2005, 10:37
It moves by hydraulics forcing the legs down at a slightly forward angle me thinks. As it moves, it tilts to one side slightly. Imagine a penguin waddling, or, as has been mentioned, one of those wind up toys, and you get the general jist.

Also, its really only Stompas and Mega Gargants that have tracks IIRC, and teh Steam Gargant of course.

Salty :)

Lord Lucifer
29-06-2005, 12:58
Well...i think the mechanism of a gargant is mostly about brute force...probably disfunctional if you look at it for proven engineering principles. But thats not the point. The Orks on board believe it will stomp its enemys, so it works. And if they paint it red it will walk even faster.
Heretic... BLASPHEMER!

Ork technology DOES work on sound engineering principles.
Don't trust a Tech-Priest to give an accurate study of xenos technology when they themselves firmly believe that it is spirits that move their machines, and that technology is possessed of sentience




Anyway, with Gargants, depends on how it's built
The above methods will work for most
For some, it could just be that the leg retracts to the point where the Gargant is standing on one foot and the other side rests on the corner of its body while the retracted leg moves forward, pushes up, making the other side/corner contact the ground and the other foot retracting/moving forward...
Poorly explained, hopefully you see what I'm meaning here.
It'd look funny as hell. That is, until the Gutbuster Mega-Kannon punches a hole in your fortress ;)

malika
29-06-2005, 13:05
Heretic... BLASPHEMER!

Ork technology DOES work on sound engineering principles.
Don't trust a Tech-Priest to give an accurate study of xenos technology when they themselves firmly believe that it is spirits that move their machines, and that technology is possessed of sentience

Good to see somebody who agrees with me on that one! I find it very lame and frustrating the way GW portraited Ork technology by the idea that things work simply because they "believe" in it...this would mean that they could kill their enemies by thinking that thing for example or whatever...it just doesnt make sense!

Ikkaan
29-06-2005, 13:05
Heretic... BLASPHEMER!

Ork technology DOES work on sound engineering principles.

And on collective psychic emanations, not to forget. "Otherwise the red wunz wont go fasta".

Sorry to say it: Orky stuff doesn´t work like human tech works. All Orks are psychic in some way. And all Orks are somwhat dumb. This has to make a difference (even if it is a comical one).

Lord Lucifer
29-06-2005, 13:18
Sorry to say this, but Orks aren't dumb, that's a common misconception.
They are very direct in thought and action, lack subtlety, and at times have very one-track minds. This is not to say they lack cunning, nor complexity.
When it comes to technology, they have a greater understanding of it than the Imperium (your average Ork understands more about mechanical engineering than your average 40K human, and your average Mek understands technology far more than your average Tech-Priest)
In the fields of Tractorbeam and Forcefield technology, their ability far exceeds that of the Imperium, who are still relying on the discoveries made before the Dark Age of Technology and the coming of the Emperor

The Ork 'psychic emanation' is a form of psychic adrenaline called The WAAAGH!, which is picked up by the only thing sensitive to it, Orkoid organisms. NOT metal.
The only time it can physically manifest is if there is a direct conduit, in otherwords a Wierdboy (especially the Warpheads, who are more likely to survive the experience)


Red Ones don't go faster by virtue of being Red.
Red ones go faster because anyone who can afford the red paint can afford to let a Mek have a look at the buggy/bike/whatever and squeeze some more juice into the baby.
Anxion even acknowledged this fact in his summary, and he's a damned genetic scientist!

Dakkagor
29-06-2005, 13:53
And on collective psychic emanations, not to forget. "Otherwise the red wunz wont go fasta".

Sorry to say it: Orky stuff doesn´t work like human tech works. All Orks are psychic in some way. And all Orks are somwhat dumb. This has to make a difference (even if it is a comical one).

Rubbish rubbish rubbish.

Think about it, the imperium believes that little spirits and demons make technology work. But these little spirits patently don't work for the alien xenos. So how does their technology work? Well, orks generate some kind of psychic field, so it must be that that makes their technology work. . . we all know that technology works on sound principles of physics. But the imperium don't know that. Interestingly enough, the orks do, on an instinctive level, through the wonders of the technogene.

Also, orks aren't stupid. Anything that can instinctively field strip a weapon, fight in close melee better than a space marine, with knowledge of tactics and language skills at the age of 6 months, is barely stupid. Also, they are direct, do not hesitate, know no fear, don't fear death, and enjoy the only common enviroment in the 40k universe: war.
Engineered to survive, with inbuilt technology knowledge, with no trouble from pesky morality. Sounds like a pretty inteligent species to me.

malika
29-06-2005, 14:06
Hmm we are slowly moving to the discussion which should be here (http://portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4711), but I dont mind...this bit of "off topicness" gives us more insight on the ork Gargants

Lord Lucifer
29-06-2005, 14:15
Okay, getting back to Gargants

How do they manage to work when you have a whole team of Meks working on it, realising that Meks are very individual in their nature, and are unlikely to be following a shared plan ;)

"Oi Radgutz! Where'd da exhaust pipe go?"
"Exhaust pipe? Oh, you mean da barrel for da Kustom Mega-Burna? I got my lot luggin' it up to da left arm"
"But dat's where da lifta-droppa iz goin'!"

"Right, I got dat Red Paint ya wanted... errr, but I could only get three buckets"
"Three? Dat's barely enough for one toe of da Gargant!"
"Yeah, but it'll be da fastest toe you ever seen!"


:D

malika
29-06-2005, 14:29
Reminds me of what happened to the Orks on Angelis (GorkaMorka) when they tried to get back into space, too many Meks with too many different ideas ending up working against each other

Ikkaan
29-06-2005, 15:27
I try not to take statments like "rubbish rubbish rubbish" as offensive even if its tempting. Some people here see the topic from a more scientific look than me, thats okay. Lets just agree that the idea of "orks" is not scientific at all, or is it ? It is unknown to me that instinct=intelligence. My dog tramples his bed before he lies down. Thats good instinct, but not intelligent. Gargants are built because some mekboy goes zap about size, not because he´s calculating its battle-value - am i wrong with this ?

I like what Lord Lucifer wrote...confusion between mekboys when building a gargant could possibly end the lifes of lots of workers in a tragic-comedy way...
somone thought the other one placed reinforced skeleton parts in the left arm but he didn´t. But there is no detailed blueprint, no quality check...damn, if it drops down and crushes the huts of the gretchins...oops...well, we´re going to make a new one. A stronger one this time. With more armor-plating. We could use the remains of the huts for that...

malika
29-06-2005, 16:08
I agree with you on the second part of your post, however I dont believe in that "we think this piece of metal can shoot...so now it will shoot", Orks are not THAT stupid! They make a gun that actually works eventhough it looks very crude. They could almost be considered to be the ultimate simplists (is that even a word?)

Ikkaan
29-06-2005, 16:23
I fully agree with that. If it weren´t so Orks would use graviton-driven black hole bolt-ammo. And i also support that the apparatus they build must be able to perform the basic task of what it is supposed to do. But i also like not to have *all* answers to things...like how some willy-nilly backwater planet orks sit together, begin welding plates...place chaotic wiring...give the thing a name...and then by miracle the thing begins moving. Even if half of the circuitry they made burns out from the start - this thing will move. Thats how i imagine the way ork stuff works.

Dakkagor
29-06-2005, 16:24
close, minimalists. They do the bare minimum to get the thing working, then they make it snazzy with gubbinz. Ork vehicles don't really have searchlights, headlights or radio sets, for example. But they have lotz of armour and big gunz.


I try not to take statments like "rubbish rubbish rubbish" as offensive even if its tempting.

Sorry Ikkaan, maybe you could tell me your army and I could find a way to belittle it to the point that they look like some stupid barbarians? Because thats what you did to the orks, and I took offense.

I imagine that orks meks will often form a hierarchy like the ordinary boyz when working on big projects, with boss meks at the top, meks in the middle, spanners below (bring back spannerz!) and grot oilers below them. But the mek layer is where all confusion lies. And that would be awesome.

"Eh, Grubnatz, didn't da boss tell ya to reinforce the central spars on C deck? Wot da zog are you doing ere?"
"Nah, Gutzmek got told to do dat"
"yeah, but eh kopped a sicky today, cause a big bolt clocked him on da noggin. . ."
"so. . dat means. . ."
:sound of metal giving under weight, followed by screaching tearing steel, screaming grots, secondary explosions and general panic:
Both meks together:
"zoggin eck! Cheese it!"

Bmaxwell
29-06-2005, 16:58
ork's pyshic powers on machine proply fix the small things that the orks messed up on just so that i can work at a bare minamuim.

Ikkaan
29-06-2005, 17:00
Sorry Ikkaan, maybe you could tell me your army and I could find a way to belittle it to the point that they look like some stupid barbarians? Because thats what you did to the orks, and I took offense.

Argh. I didn´t mean to...i apologize if i insulted your way of gaming. I appreciate orks as part of the background, and have *never* said they´re stupid babarians. They aren´t the most bright of the lot though, but excel at other areas. And please *don´t* take this as an offense, its just that they´re...orks. They´re not the micromechanical department of the adeptus mechanicus. I think you also appreciate the difference.

Freak Ona Leash
29-06-2005, 17:24
Um, orks are barbarians they arent particulary intelligent in the academic sense. So, yeah, the politically correct phrase is "orks are academically-challenged fungi who use brute force to make everything work and are dashed uncultured"


_________________
Freak, who says orks and intelligence are about as different as bacon and...er...Rogal Dorn.

malika
29-06-2005, 17:27
Uncultured? I think that the Ork culture is a very fascinating concept, read the older background on them, their music rocked! :D

Unintelligent? They produce very high tech weapons (mentioned earlier here), they are just minimalistic, however this is no proof that the Orks are less intelligent than humans

Lord Lucifer
29-06-2005, 17:38
I like what Lord Lucifer wrote...confusion between mekboys when building a gargant could possibly end the lifes of lots of workers in a tragic-comedy way...
Grots tend to make a career getting caught in the Worky Bitz :p
It's one of the reasons Snakebitez prefer Squiggoths... less Worky Bitz


Orks are not intellectualists, well most of them aren't. They are far more functional in their approach to life, and thier thinking reflects this
However, just because they don't sit around in leather chairs, smoking cigars, and discussing the economy does not quite put them in the 'stupid' category.
Remember that the average Imperial citizen is ignorant almost to the point of incompetance ;)


If it weren´t so Orks would use graviton-driven black hole bolt-ammo.
How about portable warp-tunnel technology that can target an exit point with near pin-point accuracy? ;)


However it must be stated, Orks are not Fungi. They are animal like you or I, all that is different is that their cellular structure contains an artificial algal strand of DNA, and they can supposedly grow in a symbiotic womb that absorbs nutrients from a host fungi

And their latent psychic ability does not physically manifest in their technology

Ikkaan
29-06-2005, 17:51
Without leading this thread further away from the topic: Lets take the Gargant as an example. How would different species build a gargant ?

Orks: They have a rough idea, start building, and within a short timespan a working gargant can be built. Their designs are not as sophisticated as human designs, but it will work.

Humans: They would take forever to make plans and calculate the statics and stress points of the construction. They would also make sure that it is built using minimal ressources. Then they begin to work, double check everything, make quality assurance, prototype test it and finally put it into service. THEN they are able to produce them at a rate that challenges the orks, AND these titans work in more effective parameters.

Two different approaches, with similarly successful outcomes. The ideas are diferently structured. But : humans are able to produce the same design again. And every human engineer is able to repair machines of the same type without having to find out how it is built. So the human approach is more structured (compare a warhound titan to a gargant). But in view of the outcome of the fight between a gargant and a similarly sized human titan....it *may* be more effective to be *not* the most intelligent one in the fray. Emphasis on *may* because the outcome is not sure.

Easy E
29-06-2005, 22:29
@Salty- I love the gargant site. It is inspiring. It would be great if you could get one of those guys (Krooza) to do a tutorial. The size chart is helpful as well.

Gargants walk like a penguin. The rolling motion of their gait throws off the aim of the Belly Gun all the time.

Lord Lucifer
30-06-2005, 03:38
Without leading this thread further away from the topic: Lets take the Gargant as an example. How would different species build a gargant ?

Orks: They have a rough idea, start building, and within a short timespan a working gargant can be built. Their designs are not as sophisticated as human designs, but it will work.

Humans: They would take forever to make plans and calculate the statics and stress points of the construction. They would also make sure that it is built using minimal ressources. Then they begin to work, double check everything, make quality assurance, prototype test it and finally put it into service. THEN they are able to produce them at a rate that challenges the orks, AND these titans work in more effective parameters.

Two different approaches, with similarly successful outcomes. The ideas are diferently structured. But : humans are able to produce the same design again. And every human engineer is able to repair machines of the same type without having to find out how it is built. So the human approach is more structured (compare a warhound titan to a gargant). But in view of the outcome of the fight between a gargant and a similarly sized human titan....it *may* be more effective to be *not* the most intelligent one in the fray. Emphasis on *may* because the outcome is not sure.

Ork designs not as sophisticated?
Often times they're far more sophisticated than their Imperial counterparts
It's an inherited racial memory from a civilisation that produced such awesome technology that humanity at its height could never approach

Next up, the human engineers can repair ONLY those items whose STC they are fully familiar with, where they know the appropriate rites of healing
An Ork Mek can repair pretty much anything if he sits down and takes a good look at it




it *may* be more effective to be *not* the most intelligent one in the fray
It may be more effective to be the AdMech?
Well, maybe, but it's not as fun :p

Khaine's Messenger
30-06-2005, 03:54
the human engineers can repair ONLY those items whose STC they are fully familiar with

I think the argument is that the form of engineer we're most familiar with would not go directly from concept to implementation without R&D, proof of concept, etc. This is one of the reasons a lot of engineers find Star Trek to be incredibly humorous (or insulting, depending on their state of mind).

Of course the AdMech would ritualize the whole affair, though. But most of the time, they still go throuh R&D procedures (which are, after all, procedures) if only to rubber-stamp something a heretic or politically untouchable group "invented" a while back (eg, Predator Destructor). On the other hand, the Orks seem to ignore this entirely, pulling ideas out of thin air and putting them into direct implementation...not exactly with the same "magic" as the Jokaero do, but with a reasonable degree of potency after a bare minimum of "development" (that is, the weeding out process of how many meks are alive after a significant disaster).

As far as sophistication goes, it generally is sophisticated, but in an Orkish way. That is, the most brute force solution, no matter how sophisticated it has to be (after all, brute force doesn't necessarily equal unsophisticated! ;) ), will probably work fine by them.

Sai-Lauren
30-06-2005, 11:48
I think the argument is that the form of engineer we're most familiar with would not go directly from concept to implementation without R&D, proof of concept, etc. This is one of the reasons a lot of engineers find Star Trek to be incredibly humorous (or insulting, depending on their state of mind).

In it's defence, a lot of the tech of the week in Trek is designed on the spot to meet a specific, and usually emergency, requirement. That it rarely shows up later only goes to show that it's gone to commitee. :p



Of course the AdMech would ritualize the whole affair, though. But most of the time, they still go throuh R&D procedures (which are, after all, procedures) if only to rubber-stamp something a heretic or politically untouchable group "invented" a while back (eg, Predator Destructor).
Yes, think ISO 9000 to the nth degree. For those that don't know, ISO 9000 certification doesn't care what the procedures are, just that they exist and are followed to the letter. Have a slow, laborious and ludicrous procedure documented, and you'll get certified, have the most efficient one possible in your head and you won't.

And the AM have had 30-odd thousand years to put the procedures in place. :rolleyes:

salty
30-06-2005, 13:14
@Salty- I love the gargant site. It is inspiring. It would be great if you could get one of those guys (Krooza) to do a tutorial. The size chart is helpful as well.

Thanks, there is a budget Gargant tutorial up now, but it is unfinished.

Also, you guys are forgetting that the Imperium takes ages to melt down left over materials for reuse. Ork Meks build the Boss' Gargant, then think, "Hmm, if I weld dis bit ere and dat bit dere..."

Then, voila! A Mekboyz Stompa is born!

Salty :)

magos_mechanicus
04-10-2005, 11:15
I personally think that there is nothing wrong with going straight from concept to implementation (That'd be why I managed to scrape through design qualifications using my Mekky know wotz), especially when applied to ork conversions.
It's how I got my stompa. I thought 'I want a stompa' (after seeing Krooza's Russ Stompa Project). Grabbed a mangled russ chassis, some sprues and a few sheets of plasticard. After a couple of weeks, I ended up with one:
Front (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/magos_mechanicus/Stompa/complete1.jpg)
Back (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/magos_mechanicus/Stompa/completed2.jpg)

As for how it walks...

It runs on trakks underneath!

Dakkagor
04-10-2005, 18:46
I didn´t mean to...i apologize if i insulted your way of gaming. I appreciate orks as part of the background, and have *never* said they´re stupid babarians. They aren´t the most bright of the lot though, but excel at other areas. And please *don´t* take this as an offense, its just that they´re...orks. They´re not the micromechanical department of the adeptus mechanicus. I think you also appreciate the difference.

Apology happily accepted ;)

Yes, they aren't the micromechanical department of the admech, but then, they aren't so smart either. They don 't conduct research, they just conduct technological archeology and cling desperatly to a past where humanity was better than it was now. This isn't opinion, its cannon. Orks are developing new technology at a breakneck pace (literally, in some cases) after all, grot bomb launchas, supa tellyportas and upgunned gargrants are all new designs never seen before. The predator annihilator was the last new thing humanity developed on its own, and its a workshop conversion of an old tank.

As for gargrants. . .thats a nice model. I've got to work on my own at some point. .. I've got something planned, and I reckon I'll only need to break up my two old battle fortresses and use two leman russes with about a square meter of plasticard to build it.