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Comandos
04-10-2006, 21:10
This is a thought that came to me - Are the IG really deing for a reason? Are there sacrefices made for the good of humanity? like Imperial propenganda shows?

Think about it. In 15 Hours for example, the protagonist's company gets whiped out because of a guy who made a typo. Whole worlds die because the local Imperial defenders didn't get reinforcements. And how many lives would be saved if the Imperium would find the will/recources/teach to give the Imperial Guard Carapace armour?

So, are the Imperial guardsmen true heroes, or perhaps unfortunate victoms of a tyranical regime?

malika
04-10-2006, 21:45
Are the IG really deing for a reason? Are there sacrefices made for the good of humanity? like Imperial propenganda shows?
Very simply put, yes. The Imperium can simply use all the man power they want since they practically have an unlimited resource of that.


Think about it. In 15 Hours for example, the protagonist's company gets whiped out because of a guy who made a typo.
Who made a typo? And what kindof typo? Tell me more about this. I guess its GW's rule of cool thing.


Whole worlds die because the local Imperial defenders didn't get reinforcements.
Logistics can be a very difficult thing, also note that some worlds arent worth saving. Why sent thousands (or millions) of soldiers to save some dead world with no real value? Look at it from an economic point of view, if the benefits which the world brings the imperium are higher than the costs of a resque operation they would do it, otherwise its not worth it.


And how many lives would be saved if the Imperium would find the will/recources/teach to give the Imperial Guard Carapace armour?
Sure they would save many lives with this, millions of Guardsmen would be alive, however resources are the problem. Why spent so many resources if you could spent them better on more guardsmen. They need higher numbers of troops, not better equipped troops, this is what keeps the Imperium going.


So, are the Imperial guardsmen true heroes, or perhaps unfortunate victoms of a tyranical regime?
You make it sound as if they cant be both, the Guardsman is both the true hero of the Imperium and the victim of a tyranical regime.

Comandos
04-10-2006, 22:09
Yes, that's what 'im saing - Are Guardmen deing just because someone up there decided it will be benaficial tacticly or is there really no way?

And about that typo: In the book the hero's regirment is bieng sent to put down a reballion, but a scriber makes a typo sending one company to the wrong cordinat, which is conviniantly a world that is bieng attacked by Orks.

malika
04-10-2006, 22:20
Yes, that's what 'im saing - Are Guardmen deing just because someone up there decided it will be benaficial tacticly or is there really no way?
Depends on the situation of course. But the Imperial Guards functions much along the lines of the Soviet Army during WWII, just send more waves of soldiers and the war will be won. You shouldnt try to look at it in a modern sense of war because 40k doesnt work like that. Good equipment and training are reserved for elite units such as Stormtroopers or Space Marines who fulfill different roles than the Imperial Guard.

Besides, a single man, or even a million men are expendable in the Imperium, why worry about a million dead bodies if you can achieve victory and easily get another million troops to die again?


And about that typo: In the book the hero's regirment is bieng sent to put down a reballion, but a scriber makes a typo sending one company to the wrong cordinat, which is conviniantly a world that is bieng attacked by Orks.
Logistical error caused by a typo...its possible, especially in such a large bureaucratic system the Imperium has.

Inq. Veltane
04-10-2006, 22:44
Well while you're at it why not give all Guardsmen Power Armour? Because human life isn't worth that much quite simply. And anyway heavier armour has disadvantages as well as advantages, flak armour is actually quite a good balance of protection and weight its just that Guardsmen aren't supposed to have a chance against MEQs. They are raised to fight other guardsmen, who usually have inferior weapons and equipment. The fact that 40k games face unusual opposition makes it look like the Guard are poorly equipped when really they have decent equipment, just not the best money can buy.

Sephiroth
04-10-2006, 23:07
So, are the Imperial guardsmen true heroes, or perhaps unfortunate victoms of a tyranical regime?

A little from the former and a little from the latter. ;)

cailus
04-10-2006, 23:18
No soldier ever died fighting for a worthy cause. Why should the Guard be any different?

Sandlemad
04-10-2006, 23:24
Watch Brazil and Dr. Strangelove and all the guard and the imperium seems to fall into place.
Then you can simply laugh your socks off at the sheer insanity of it all.

Outlaw289
05-10-2006, 03:18
Depends on the situation of course. But the Imperial Guards functions much along the lines of the Soviet Army during WWII, just send more waves of soldiers and the war will be won.

Not quite true. The Red Army stopped behaving as such after 1943. After they, they were a well armed, battle-hardened force that combined infantry attacks, armored spearheads, and artillery masterfully.

Thats how the Imperial Guard works. Artillery, tanks, and infantry all supporting one another. They don't run side by side in their millions, early-world war one style, until the other guys run out of ammo.


They are raised to fight other guardsmen, who usually have inferior weapons and equipment.

And Orks and Tau as well :D Traitors, Greenskins, and Tau are IMHO the most common enemy types.

Considering that in warfare, most people stick to cover makes carapace redudant. Everyone hides behind buildings, trenches, boulders, tank wrecks, etc. I say flak is fitting for how the Guard fights.


Yes, that's what 'im saing - Are Guardmen deing just because someone up there decided it will be benaficial tacticly or is there really no way?

No. Just dying means they are being wasted, and wasting soldiers is wasting resources. If they die in droves its because of tactically unsound decisions made by the top brass.

Remember the Guard is a combined arms force. A lot of people tend to forget this, thinking its a meatshield footslogger force. Each branch of the Guard (troops, FA, heavy support etc.) supports the other, minimizing casualty. The Guard typically wouldn't be a mass death slaughter army unless RoC demands it for a novel or cutscene.

Drogmir
05-10-2006, 04:17
Well it's a little bit of the greater good thing just human instead of Tau,

Imperial Guard are dying for the greater good of keeping humanity alive but individually no one will remember them.

Space Marines will be sung in tales but imperial guardsmen no one will remember

Slazton
05-10-2006, 04:59
I think Outlaw has it right. The Imperial Guard are actually worth their salt in battle and if a trooper dies it is because he alcks faith in the Emperor, bnot because his lack of training. In fact, most Imperial Guardsmen go through rigious training and the Imperial Guard only has a high death rate as when compared to the Space Marines and the Stormtroopers they would as there is more numbers.

More numbers=higher death rates compared to Stormtroopers and Space Marines ;)

Reflex
05-10-2006, 06:15
Leela: wow, aren't you Zapp Brannigan? you stopped the fleet of kill bots, right? how did you do it?
Zapp: it was simple really. Kill-bots have a preset "kill limit", once they reach this limit, they shut down. knowing their weakness, i just sent wave after wave of our own men into battle against them, once they killed them all, they were effectively shut down.


now if we turn kill robots into enemy and kill limit into ammo, it fits.

Scythe
05-10-2006, 07:30
And Orks and Tau as well :D Traitors, Greenskins, and Tau are IMHO the most common enemy types.


Tau aren't that common, at least not in most parts of the galaxy. I think Nids would come 3rd here. Besides, Tau would probably outclass the guard more as these other enemies (as seen in the Taros campaign).

Griefbringer
05-10-2006, 09:21
It was written somewhere that "An Imperial commander who uses penal battalions wastefully, is likely to find himself in a penal battalion" and I think that is a valid point - while individual guardsman as such is expendable in an Imperium of million worlds, in an actual tactical/operational situation there are not likely to be infinite reinforcements and reserves at hand, forcing a commander to use carefully whatever resources he has available.

As for administrative mistakes, considering the vast size and archaic nature of the Imperial bureaucracy, they shouldn't be all that rare occurrences - however, nobody is likely to admit that they were mistakes in the first place.

gunhed
05-10-2006, 09:36
And about that typo: In the book the hero's regirment is bieng sent to put down a reballion, but a scriber makes a typo sending one company to the wrong cordinat, which is conviniantly a world that is bieng attacked by Orks.


Was it a mistake? Maybe it was, but who's to say that the presence of the extra company might not have made the difference in the long run.

Who can know the will of the Emperor?

Gen.Steiner
05-10-2006, 09:43
Each generation fights and dies to ensure that the next generation lives to fight and die. In this way, the Imperium and Humanity survives.

The Imperial Guard are the glorious defenders of Humanity, who fight in His name to ensure the ascendency of Humanity to its rightful place as sole occupant of the Galaxy.

That's about the size of it...

Chiron
05-10-2006, 10:28
Not quite true. The Red Army stopped behaving as such after 1943. After they, they were a well armed, battle-hardened force that combined infantry attacks, armored spearheads, and artillery masterfully.

No, look at Zhukovs final push to Berlin, more and more fed in to the breaches until they finally got in by exhausting the defenders with sheer manpower

Gen.Steiner
05-10-2006, 10:38
No, look at Zhukovs final push to Berlin, more and more fed in to the breaches until they finally got in by exhausting the defenders with sheer manpower

Urm, partly true, but the Battle for Berlin wasn't simply won through overwhelming numerical superiority, but combined arms operations as well. The fact that the defenders held out as long as they did is the impressive thing - after all, the Soviets used more troops against Berlin than were present during Operation Barbarossa.

Numbers doesn't prevent you from using tactics, however...

Freak Ona Leash
05-10-2006, 10:44
Urm, partly true, but the Battle for Berlin wasn't simply won through overwhelming numerical superiority, but combined arms operations as well. The fact that the defenders held out as long as they did is the impressive thing - after all, the Soviets used more troops against Berlin than were present during Operation Barbarossa.

Numbers doesn't prevent you from using tactics, however...
And whose to say that the "I have more troops than you have bullets" idea isnt a tactic? Quantity has a quality all it's own, is how the saying goes if Freak recalls...

Gen.Steiner
05-10-2006, 11:26
It's more of a strategy than a tactic, really.

Although it's not surprising that it was IV Stalin who said "Quantity has a quality all of its own", although I suspect that's a paraphrase of the original.

Reflex
05-10-2006, 11:30
yes, stalins great quote, quantity has a quality of its own. i think russia should be ashamed of using such a tactic. i use that tactic in dawn of war when i play imperial guard.

just build 10 - 20 infantry commands and set rally points in enemy bases. it works because eventually it overwhelms the enemy, the other way it works is, is if the enemy army leave there base then the guard in there base would eventually grow stong enough to destoy there base.

its painfully annoying.

where did i get this tactic, it was a book i read from the black library that spelled out the commanders tactic. just keep sending men at them because eventually i will win. with unlimited resources i am undefeatable.

imperail guard do not send men at them for no reason, there is a reason behind it, but because the imperium is communist, its not the man in the squad that counts, its the squad in the platoon in the company in the regiment in the etc that counts. they dont care for a single man, thats what space marines are.

if imperial gaurd cared about there men, then imperial gard would not be as fun to play with or watch die.

also imperial guard do not rely on men to win there battles, if they did then they would lose. the fact is they have jsut about enough tanks to have it at a 1 tank to every 25 men in most army groups. thats ALOT of tanks.

Gen.Steiner
05-10-2006, 11:32
...because the imperium is communist ... imperial guard do not rely on men to win there battles

Hahahahaha! Oh, that's a good one! The Imperium is communist! Ahahahaha! Oh dear, that's just too funny...! hee hee hee :D

The armoured units are the hammer of the Imperial Guard, but the infantry are the anvil.

malika
05-10-2006, 11:38
Funny definition of communism some people have here :p

Splagbot
05-10-2006, 11:42
The armoured units are the hammer of the Imperial Guard, but the infantry are the anvil.

Indeed, the infantry form the backbone of the Imperial Guard.

Yes the Imperial Guard are heroes, the fact that they are being used by a tyrannical regime makes no difference, what soldier goes to war without being used by the government that sent him there, this makes them no-less heroes, it just makes them more heroic for it.

Llothlian
05-10-2006, 11:48
"The man who fights and dies for his country will be honoured above all heroes in heaven." - Anon.

jfrazell
05-10-2006, 12:17
Learn something every day. I thought it was Lenin who said that.

The guard are not just running meatshields. Some commanders from some planets will do that, yes, but others are far more advanced than that. As has been noted they are a combined arms force of armor, artillery, air assault, and superheavies, backed by airpower, orbital support, and titans on occasion. The strength of the guard really comes out on its own in larger engagements above mere platoon size. At 40K level nearly everything can kill guardsmen. But at larger levels the power of the guard really stands out.

Think about this for firepower at Battalion level:
-Commander with 6 squads in chimeras
-Mechanized infantry company with 6 squads in chimeras
-Infantry platoon with three squads
-Leman Russ tank company (10 tanks including a Vanquisher-marines run in fear!)
-Manticore battery of three long range manticore missile launchers (twice as strong as basilisks)
-Six hydra anti-aircraft batteries, also useful against bad guy hordes who just refuse to die.
-Vulture squadron of four vultures - Guard’s answer to the Apache
-Three Baneblade or Shadow Sword super heavy tanks to deal with those pesky ork gargants chaos titans.

Instead of Doctor Zhivago, visualize this

Positions all around suddenly erupt in fire and destruction as manticore missiles strike them from over the horizon. Your supporting armor blows up as vultures pop up and hit them from range with anti-tank missiles. Through the smoke and shock the first thing you see is a mass of armor coming in your direction with ordnance already barking at you. Super heavies in their midst take out any larger defenses or war engines that have survived the initial assault with titan sized weaponry. After firing for a period more than a dozen chimeras move up, with the Lemans continuing to pour fire into your positions.
The last thing you see are troops pouring out from the chimeras to assault the few in your position who have survived.

Its never a good thing to mess with the Guard.

MrLiy
05-10-2006, 12:48
Hope this doesnt derail the topic too much.

I cant believe *someone* on the forum said that no soldier ever died fighting for a worthy cause!!

I suggest you learn your history...Whether you are American or not you wouldnt have the freedom to speak as you do without the men and women that sacrificed their lives for your country. Saying the sacrifices of servicemen worldwide were worthless would be like denying the holocaust.

That being said:

Some of the most tense, tactical, and fun games I have ever played have been IG vs IG or IG vs Lost and the Damned. THe IG is not meant to fight demonic supermen, high tech aliens, or montrous superpredators. The fact they can hold their own is very admirable. IG commanders have to be very skilled especially when on the assault. (Not a strong point for the guard)

jfrazell
05-10-2006, 12:52
I suggest you learn your history...Whether you are American or not you wouldnt have the freedom to speak as you do without the men and women that sacrificed their lives for your country. Saying the sacrifices of servicemen worldwide were worthless would be like denying the holocaust.



I didn't rise to the bait on that one.

Llothlian
05-10-2006, 12:53
I was going to comment on that, but decided not to.

Back on topic though.

I have a game against Guard next week, I am using my SoB. SoB are a strong force. They are equiped as well as any army in the game. And I'm dreading this game. Guard are a SCARY thought. I'm sure thats how it is for 40k Guards enemies too. Not everybody has the Adeptus Astartes, Daemonic legions, or extra-galactic aliens to compare them to.

MvS
05-10-2006, 12:53
Funny definition of communism some people have here :p

Perhaps he meant 'Stalinist' or 'Soviet'...? Not quite the same thing as Communist, but probably closer to the Imperium military model.

Wolflord Havoc
05-10-2006, 12:53
I would imagine that even the Guard in their countless billions (which again represents a tiny fraction of the manpower of the Imperial Guard) only have a tiny fraction of their number in combat at any one time and even this number would be in the countless millions. Indeed I would suspect that an 'average' guard unit might be raised and serve for 40 years as a garrison force and might never fire a shot in anger.

They also serve who only stand and keep watch.

And also I am assuming that a Guard Regiment is simular to a WW2 division (ie FW IA3: Taros Campaign book) - lets take a British Division circa 1944 - which would have an on strength listing of over 10,000 men.

We have 9 battalions of Infantry (in 3 brigades) each battalion with 3 fighting companies (so 27 companies) of aprox 120 men.

So at most 3300 odd Infantry men in a Infantry division (or Ig regt) of 10,000.

Now of the remaining 70% of the Battalion (Ig Regt) I suspect that we might have some Tanks, Reconaccance units, lots of Artillery, AAA units, Provosts, Transport Units, Veternary detachment if the unit has animals, Medical units, the all important field kitchens, Engineers (combat as well as mechanics), lliason detachments (Air and sea or in our case space).

So I guess what I am saying is - the image of the Guard being nothing but a huge pool of cannon fodder is incorrect.

That the Imperium can afford to lose these men in droves is however correct. But remember these PBIs (poor bloody infantrymen) are, on the most part, dedicated proffessional soldiers. They don't want to die. But are prepared to put themselves in harms way just as their predessesors have done for the last 10,000 years or more.

malika
05-10-2006, 13:12
Perhaps he meant 'Stalinist' or 'Soviet'...? Not quite the same thing as Communist, but probably closer to the Imperium military model.

Hmm...the military tactic of sending wave after wave of soldiers in which the individual soldier isnt important doesnt have that much to do with political ideology, its more a tactic.

Llothlian
05-10-2006, 13:14
They were talking about the Imperium in general I believe.

Wolflord Havoc
05-10-2006, 13:57
And it was not just the 'soviets' that could send men in droves to die.

Look at the 'unessersary' battles (with the benifit of hindsight) around Monte Casino by the British Commonwealth Forces. Battalion after Battalion was bled white for that place and by the time it was taken - the reason for its capture was past.

And the blood bath that bled the US Armies 1st Army dry in the Hurtgen Forest cost them 33,000 troops from the 120,000 comitted.

And given that the ratio of front line troops to rear echelon troops is 1:4 this means that virtually every infantry company had a complete turnover of troops due to casulties - some twice over.

Llothlian
05-10-2006, 14:07
Or the first day in the Battle of the Somme, where 20,000 British troops an hour died. :( One of the biggest blood baths in history. Even worse than dropping the bomb in Japan, since it was prolonged and could have been stopped at almost any time.

Gen.Steiner
05-10-2006, 14:09
I cant believe *someone* on the forum said that no soldier ever died fighting for a worthy cause!!

Very few have. A bayonet, after all, is a weapon with a worker at either end...


Perhaps he meant 'Stalinist' or 'Soviet'...? Not quite the same thing as Communist, but probably closer to the Imperium military model.

The Imperium is closer to a mix of Imperial Rome, the Taliban's Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, and ancient Greece... It's not really Stalinist and it's certainly not council based. The Imperium is a totalitarian theocracy. :)


And it was not just the 'soviets' that could send men in droves to die.

Indeed. World War One, Gettysburg, Imjin River... etc.

The Imperial Guard, however, are dedicated, religiously inspired and motivated, professional soldiers, which are at a level of 20th Century competance overall. They are versed in 10,000+ years of tactics and strategy, and they can fight and win in all environments.

Minister
05-10-2006, 14:21
The Imperium is closer to a mix of Imperial Rome, the Taliban's Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, and ancient Greece... It's not really Stalinist and it's certainly not council based. The Imperium is a totalitarian theocracy. :)Totalitarian ogliarchy re-enforced by religious doctrine. The Ecclesiarch is not the supreme ruller. :)


The Imperial Guard, however, are dedicated, religiously inspired and motivated, professional soldiers, which are at a level of 20th Century competance overall. They are versed in 10,000+ years of tactics and strategy, and they can fight and win in all environments.
Although which point in the 20th century, and which geographical area, will, of course, depend on which units of the Guard you concider.

Gen.Steiner
05-10-2006, 14:24
Totalitarian ogliarchy re-enforced by religious doctrine. The Ecclesiarch is not the supreme ruller. :)

Debatable, as the High Lords are the heads of the Priesthood of Terra... :p and, in fairness, the Emperor is a God.


Although which point in the 20th century, and which geographical area, will, of course, depend on which units of the Guard you concider.

I absolutely agree.

Voronwe[MQ]
05-10-2006, 14:43
You make it sound as if they cant be both, the Guardsman is both the true hero of the Imperium and the victim of a tyranical regime.

The Imperial Guard are tragic heroes that fights for a dystopic Imperium that treats them and most of its citizen tyranically. Logistics is always hard, and don't think of carapace armour from a army list perspective when it comes to production cost. And if it in reality is the economics that decide, why should it be different in 40k? A realm without trade is soon a dead realm, or at least shattered.

Llothlian
05-10-2006, 15:13
If it is cheaper to make a lasgun and flak jacket than carapace armour, then its best to do that, since soldiers are free. :P

jfrazell
05-10-2006, 15:28
But they are not free:

1) They are expensive to equip, train, and there are opportunity costs to the sourcing planet. If you ship out al the young men from planet Bob, productivity will plummet in the long term and you lose a generation of workers. If you do not equip and train them effectively they are meat shields only and relatively worthless. And they break much easier. Depending on their opponent they may switch sides with ease, and become your enemy.

2) Transport to and from theaters is expensive. Those troopers use up a massive quantity of consumables in transit, whereas the aforementioned Leman does not.

3) On the field they require substantial quantities of material to maintain them-food, medicine, ammunition, transport. Is it less expensive to keep a Leman and crew in the field or a platoon of troopers?

malika
05-10-2006, 15:48
They are expensive to equip, train, and there are opportunity costs to the sourcing planet. If you ship out al the young men from planet Bob, productivity will plummet in the long term and you lose a generation of workers. If you do not equip and train them effectively they are meat shields only and relatively worthless. And they break much easier. Depending on their opponent they may switch sides with ease, and become your enemy.
How many of the population from planet Bob go to the Guard? Wars in GW's vision have relatively very small numbers, just look at the amount of soldiers who fought at the Third Armageddon War and then check how many fought during WWII. I assume less than 5% of the adult population is sent to the PDF or Imperial Guard, so dont worry about productivity. You give a soldier a cheaply produced lasgun and some flakarmour and you're set. Give them some training and realise that most of them will die in battle (not tell them that of course) and keep those commissars to make sure that they wont dersert.


2) Transport to and from theaters is expensive. Those troopers use up a massive quantity of consumables in transit, whereas the aforementioned Leman does not.
Relatively speaking those costs are not too high I think. While a Leman Russ is cheaper for transport and maintenance you still need infantry...you cant win a war by only orbital bombardement and tanks.


3) On the field they require substantial quantities of material to maintain them-food, medicine, ammunition, transport. Is it less expensive to keep a Leman and crew in the field or a platoon of troopers?
Imperial technology is very crude but effective. A Leman Russ will drive on practically anything you put in there as fuel. A Lasgun can be recharged by keeping the batteries in the sun or throwing them into a fire. While other resources are also needed note that these are all still cheaper than to produce a bolter and full carapace armour for each guardsman.

jfrazell
05-10-2006, 16:07
Quote:
How many of the population from planet Bob go to the Guard? Wars in GW's vision have relatively very small numbers, just look at the amount of soldiers who fought at the Third Armageddon War and then check how many fought during WWII. I assume less than 5% of the adult population is sent to the PDF or Imperial Guard, so don’t worry about productivity. You give a soldier a cheaply produced lasgun and some flakarmour and you're set. Give them some training and realize that most of them will die in battle (not tell them that of course) and keep those commissars to make sure that they wont dersert.

Response: There were more than a billion soldiers in the Sabbat Crusade (source Sabbat history). I don’t believe Armageddon’s numbers were ever actually stated (the list on the site trails off). It has been noted in the Tau codex, that planets on the fringe have been drained such that their defenses are non-existent, and that’s on the other side of the galaxy from the main EOT theater of conflict.


Quote:
Relatively speaking those costs are not too high I think. While a Leman Russ is cheaper for transport and maintenance you still need infantry...you cant win a war by only orbital bombardment and tanks.

Response: If it takes months or years to transport a regiment from one system to the next, you have to carry along the oxygen, food and medicine to keep them going during that time. That’s a massive amount of material for poorly trained grunts. And that’s assuming the availability of navigators is relatively infinite, which is not the case. As such, it would behoove the Imperium, NOT to send untrained hordes (ala early Stalingrad), but well trained and well equipped troops and equipment, to give them the strongest force multiplier (bang for the buck). Cheap PDF on the home world is one thing (and I agree with you completely in that respect). But transporting forces, no they would have to be an entirely different standard.

Quote:
Imperial technology is very crude but effective. A Leman Russ will drive on practically anything you put in there as fuel. A Lasgun can be recharged by keeping the batteries in the sun or throwing them into a fire. While other resources are also needed note that these are all still cheaper than to produce a bolter and full carapace armour for each guardsman.

Response: my issue is that the theory that they will just through men out doesn’t hold for guard. Lasguns are cheaper and simpler and are used than bolters. But as has been noted you need a true combined arms approach to assure victory. Dr. Zhivago charging across the frozen plain didn’t cut it against WWI Germans and wouldn’t cut it against the Sons of Sek. Bradley launching operation Cobra with a highly mechanized combined arms approach would.

As a final note I point you to the Armageddon campaign book itself. The initial Guard counterthrust is a great mechanized assault accompanied by titans and squadrons of super heavy tanks (Baneblades I think). The list itself was completely mechanized.

malika
05-10-2006, 16:31
There were more than a billion soldiers in the Sabbat Crusade (source Sabbat history). I donít believe Armageddonís numbers were ever actually stated (the list on the site trails off). It has been noted in the Tau codex, that planets on the fringe have been drained such that their defenses are non-existent, and thatís on the other side of the galaxy from the main EOT theater of conflict.
Look at the Armageddon 3 website at the forces in involved and then at the amount of regiments. Consider each regiment to be 5000 to 10000 soldiers strong. Wasnt the Sabbat Crusade in the entire Sabbat sector? I know the higher number makes more sense, but still this wouldnt mean that the entire male population from some world would be used to supply the IG.


If it takes months or years to transport a regiment from one system to the next, you have to carry along the oxygen, food and medicine to keep them going during that time. Thatís a massive amount of material for poorly trained grunts. And thatís assuming the availability of navigators is relatively infinite, which is not the case.
I doubt voyages on that scale would take months or years, that would be too ineffecient, I assume travels would take days or weeks at most, otherwise the voyage would take too long.

Llothlian
05-10-2006, 16:35
I remember reading a short story about a Guard commander thinking about his forces. He had 500,000 troops in his regiment.

malika
05-10-2006, 16:58
As you can see here GW isnt very consistent about the number of soldiers in a regiment.

jfrazell
05-10-2006, 17:06
I can't get the website to open. Sorry. I do know that in the campaign book, the listing of regiments trails off-there is no specific number given for amounts of troops.

Warp travel generally takes longer than a few days, hence the fluff about troops training in-transit.

I do concede, based on fluff (abnett, 15 hours, Sabbat Worlds) that there is a massive variety of guard units. As such some could potentially be more of the wave assault variety, while others are more "advanced." I imagine, and hadn't considered, that it really depends on the worlds these forces are sourced from. Just as we have infantry and armored divisions in our own forces, there is also likely bifurcations in that regard as well.

Yes indeedy regiment sizes seem to bounce all over the place.

malika
05-10-2006, 17:59
But the problem with having to travel to a warzone for months or years is that this is a grave strategic error, forces might arrive too late and it would also be too expensive. I assume forces would come from neighbouring sectors or systems to hand in support, which would probably take days. But the points you are making are quite valid and interesting.

Oh you might take a look at this (http://wiki.anargo-sector.net/index.php?title=Warp_Travel#Travel_Times_Through_t he_Warp)for travel times in the warp :)

heretics bane
05-10-2006, 18:45
well if 1 gaurdy dies that one less mouth to feed,one more person the ordo heretictus worry about. the more die the less the imperium have to deal with. and not all gaurds are slobs with guns the cadian's are and armie of highly trainned troops

Voronwe[MQ]
05-10-2006, 19:54
If the Imperium seriously would have even considered treating people that bad, I'd rather be burried alive, dug up, burnt, thrown to the bottom of the sea with a bloody anchor through my skull and then burried again than living there:D
Still, I don't think that Cadians is highly trained regiments (albeit disciplined and sociologically motivated ones), as I think special corps and grenadiers quallify for this category, but not the Shock Troopers.

Minister
05-10-2006, 23:34
Regiments range from 2,000-10,000 in almost all of the recent sources. The force being commented on in the Armageddon campaign was under the command of General Titus, commanding nine Titans, twelve companies of armour, a number of superheavies and thirty thousand mechanised infantry with their own transports and supporting armour, plus his own Leviathan.

Armageddon had, according to the book, 146 regiments of Guard, with around the same again of militia units. Bearing in mind that much of that is armour this could be expected to give over 100,000 troops. Hardly enough for a Hive world, I think you will aggree (particularly the defensive hub for the whole region). Warp, there's more men than that on the fleet supporting them (rough estimate as beign in the region of one million souls embarked, but skewed due to the grouping of ships into squadrons rather than giving numbers of cruisers and escorts.

The Ork numbers can be conservativley estimated at 1,300,000 troops, again woefully low for a campaign of this magnitude.

For scale, the number of troops (not civilians) killed (not serving) in WW2 was around 25,000,000. Given the scale of the Armageddon III conflict, I would expect at least hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen to be serving.

cailus
06-10-2006, 01:07
Hope this doesnt derail the topic too much.

I cant believe *someone* on the forum said that no soldier ever died fighting for a worthy cause!!

I suggest you learn your history...Whether you are American or not you wouldnt have the freedom to speak as you do without the men and women that sacrificed their lives for your country. Saying the sacrifices of servicemen worldwide were worthless would be like denying the holocaust.

Such as the African American servicemen who fought in World War IiI for a regime that denied them basic human rights right up to the 1960's? Or the fact that after World War II, the US and co simply handed over half the world to the Stalinist Soviet Union who was as brutal and murderous as the Nazis?

Or the British and Argentinians who died fighting for some useless rocks in the South Atlantic called the Falklands?

Or the Iraqis and Iranians who slaughtered each other in the hundreds of thousands for the benefit of some religious zealots or a nationalist despot?

Or an example which is close to my heart. the war of independence in Croatia? I was there in 1991 and was shot at by snipers and had my house obliterated by two artillery shells. Those Croatian soldiers who fought the Serbs were serving a bunch of pseudo-fascists called the Croatian Democratic Party. They performed a lot of atrocities in the name of Croatian independence.

And what did the Croats get for this sacrifice? A country that has much lower standards of living than pre-independence, rampant unemployment, higher crime levels, increased corruption and an environment polluted with mines and unexploded ordnance.

I'm sure with hindsight all those brave Croat men and women who died for Croatia would let Croatia stay a part of Yugoslavia.

So while soldiers fight bravely, they never die for a cause worth fighting for. Because in reality that cause serves the interests of the rich and powerful.

Eisen
06-10-2006, 01:33
Such as the African American servicemen who fought in World War IiI for a regime that denied them basic human rights right up to the 1960's? Or the fact that after World War II, the US and co simply handed over half the world to the Stalinist Soviet Union who was as brutal and murderous as the Nazis?

Depends on how you look at it - each war since the American Civil War, blacks made steps forward. WW2 was a massive turning point for them in many ways, because federally, they were guaranteed educational benefits and equal treatment post-war. The fact that it was made near-impossible for them to take advantage of this in much of the southern US is part of what led to the civil rights movement of the '50s and '60s.

There were men in the US military during both world wars who considered that their fighting cause was proving that their specific minority - be it the Harlem Hellfighters or the Rainbow Division - and not what their leaders told them. The vast majority of soldiers don't fight for the Cause in any case, they fight for the men to their left and right.

Reflex
06-10-2006, 04:32
Hahahahaha! Oh, that's a good one! The Imperium is communist! Ahahahaha! Oh dear, that's just too funny...! hee hee hee :D





well if you look at it the imperium is very communist like. but much rather like war communist/ military dictatorship.

think about it evey one pretty much works for the constant war effort, be it supplies or actually being a solder. your forced to do what you do by dictators (dictators being the military generals). it pretty much a military dictatorship.

everyone works not for themselves but for the imperium. i dont see how it is not a communist like state.

Horusaurus
06-10-2006, 05:53
think about it evey one pretty much works for the constant war effort, be it supplies or actually being a solder. your forced to do what you do by dictators (dictators being the military generals). it pretty much a military dictatorship.

everyone works not for themselves but for the imperium. i dont see how it is not a communist like state.

That sounds more like fascism to me.

Reflex
06-10-2006, 06:29
yeah i suppose facism is a better word. eitherway it is still a military dictatorship. but Fascism is a better word.

back on topic though, its not like they just send men to die in a way that they want them to die. when you think about it, its usually the stupid guardsmen that die. whereas the smart guardsmen are usually shot by commissars because they come up with better stratergies... :P

i was reading some CoD fluff that inclueded a company of guardsmen from the perseus PDF. the young guys were killed because they didnt use cover (the stupid ones) wile the sergeant of the squad decided to fall back and take another route, the commissar shot him. the Tau fighting over the area won because they just shot the guardsment to pieces before they could take certain positions so the tanks could get in place.

its rather good fluff, i should find it and post it.

Sarge
06-10-2006, 06:42
The word you are looking for is Authoritarianism, aka the millitary state. But really that is only one political side, you have many monarchies present with a commanding nobility. You even have "democracies" present on many of these Hive worlds, but over all the Imperium is an Empire of Empires, all of which exert some authoritarian influence not because they want to, but because they are forced to, both by the Imperium itself and the enemy they constantly fight. So in short there is no way to classify the political majority of the Imperium without ignoring billions of people on billions of worlds.

Sarge
06-10-2006, 06:54
This is a thought that came to me - Are the IG really deing for a reason? Are there sacrefices made for the good of humanity? like Imperial propenganda shows?

Think about it. In 15 Hours for example, the protagonist's company gets whiped out because of a guy who made a typo. Whole worlds die because the local Imperial defenders didn't get reinforcements. And how many lives would be saved if the Imperium would find the will/recources/teach to give the Imperial Guard Carapace armour?

So, are the Imperial guardsmen true heroes, or perhaps unfortunate victoms of a tyranical regime?

Heros are only ever victims, you can't have a hero without self sacrifice, that is the definition of a hero. The truth is the Imperium is so vast it is impossible to keep track of all of the planets, or to even supply them all equally. So who cares if one world dies, there are billions of others with countless of billions of people, in short the needs of the majority out weight the needs of the few.

Now if the Tau ever take control of the Imperium, and they might just do that, than the system will be much more effective and the causualties will be quite less severe, but the truth is you're talking about an empire that stretches across billions of light years, and is responsible for countless trillions of people, no system in the universe can keep track of that many planets, let alone lives. So inevitably some will fall through the cracks, some will simply become more self-suffecient, others will fall to anarchy and chaos, while others will either be influenced by xenos or destroyed by them.

And at the front line of the battles you have the lowly Guardsmen who fights not for the Imperium, or even the God-Emperor, but to survive and ensure their family survives as well, and no war for survival has ever been in vain, even if those fighting and dying on the front lines grow hopeless and disillusioned in the end.

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 06:58
Regiments range from 2,000-10,000 in almost all of the recent sources. The force being commented on in the Armageddon campaign was under the command of General Titus, commanding nine Titans, twelve companies of armour, a number of superheavies and thirty thousand mechanised infantry with their own transports and supporting armour, plus his own Leviathan.

Armageddon had, according to the book, 146 regiments of Guard, with around the same again of militia units. Bearing in mind that much of that is armour this could be expected to give over 100,000 troops. Hardly enough for a Hive world, I think you will aggree (particularly the defensive hub for the whole region). Warp, there's more men than that on the fleet supporting them (rough estimate as beign in the region of one million souls embarked, but skewed due to the grouping of ships into squadrons rather than giving numbers of cruisers and escorts.

The Ork numbers can be conservativley estimated at 1,300,000 troops, again woefully low for a campaign of this magnitude.

For scale, the number of troops (not civilians) killed (not serving) in WW2 was around 25,000,000. Given the scale of the Armageddon III conflict, I would expect at least hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen to be serving.

I don't think you have any idea how much 100,000 troops actually are. 100,000 troops is enough to take over a country with very few (under 50) casualties in the modern world (see the second gulf war). Most of the Imperial Guard are better trained than modern soldiers, they have better weapons and the supporting vehicles are just as good. No commander worth his salt would charge such a force in and stand there while the orcs charged. 100,000 disciplinedtroops could easily defeat 1,000,000 mindless brutes.

The reason WW1/2 casualties were so high is because of the trench warfare, and the fact that the generals had no idea about that style of warfare. The Imperiums generals have 10,000 years of experience.

Reflex
06-10-2006, 07:31
The word you are looking for is Authoritarianism, aka the millitary state. But really that is only one political side, you have many monarchies present with a commanding nobility. You even have "democracies" present on many of these Hive worlds, but over all the Imperium is an Empire of Empires, all of which exert some authoritarian influence not because they want to, but because they are forced to, both by the Imperium itself and the enemy they constantly fight. So in short there is no way to classify the political majority of the Imperium without ignoring billions of people on billions of worlds.
i think that this sums it up aswell.

i think we could sum it up by saying that the imperium is the imperium. the imperium IS Communism, Socialism, Bolshevism, Menshevism, Autocratic and Facist.

Minister
06-10-2006, 08:49
I don't think you have any idea how much 100,000 troops actually are. 100,000 troops is enough to take over a country with very few (under 50) casualties in the modern world (see the second gulf war). Most of the Imperial Guard are better trained than modern soldiers, they have better weapons and the supporting vehicles are just as good. No commander worth his salt would charge such a force in and stand there while the orcs charged. 100,000 disciplinedtroops could easily defeat 1,000,000 mindless brutes.

The reason WW1/2 casualties were so high is because of the trench warfare, and the fact that the generals had no idea about that style of warfare. The Imperiums generals have 10,000 years of experience.100,000 troops is enough to take over a country, I will grant. Yet observe, a war of that scale went on in our world recently and most of us felt no effect directly (there was much indirect effect, but this is mostly due to the nature of the war, not to the scale). Armageddon III is a war threatening to grind one fo the Imperium's most populous and productive worlds into oblivion, and is fought on a truely world-wide scale (even WW2 was only fought on three continents, although with troops from six).

Simply put, a single hive should be able to shrug off this scale of conflict, a hive world should not crippled by it.

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 09:03
But there were ~150 regts fighting there, each between 2,000 and 10,000. If we say they are all 10,000 thats 1,500,000 men. A lot more than 100,000.

Eulenspiegel
06-10-2006, 09:31
So while soldiers fight bravely, they never die for a cause worth fighting for. Because in reality that cause serves the interests of the rich and powerful.
Words of wisdom in a thread that, though interesting, treats the average human life a little too abstract (I know itīs the game youīre refering to).
Causes are worth living for, not dieing.

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 09:41
I would die to keep my country out of enemy hands. How is that not a worthy cause? There are plenty of worthy causes. Stopping somebody killing your family for example. But then, I guess all those who realised what a worthy cause actually means already joined the forces.

malika
06-10-2006, 11:03
I don't think you have any idea how much 100,000 troops actually are. 100,000 troops is enough to take over a country with very few (under 50) casualties in the modern world (see the second gulf war).
Uhm you mean 100,000 troops and tons of bombardements on a country which government wasnt popular anyway. And even then these 100,000 troops are not enough to keep that nation occupied. Imagine a Hive World with a population in the billions.


Most of the Imperial Guard are better trained than modern soldiers, they have better weapons and the supporting vehicles are just as good. No commander worth his salt would charge such a force in and stand there while the orcs charged. 100,000 disciplinedtroops could easily defeat 1,000,000 mindless brutes.

The reason WW1/2 casualties were so high is because of the trench warfare, and the fact that the generals had no idea about that style of warfare. The Imperiums generals have 10,000 years of experience.
While the Imperium has 10,000 years of experience they do seem to fight odd, napoleonic and WWI/II styles of warfare, hardly something modern...heck they fight with swords and spears!


But there were ~150 regts fighting there, each between 2,000 and 10,000. If we say they are all 10,000 thats 1,500,000 men. A lot more than 100,000.
Just one and a half million troops is nothing if we are speaking of a war which takes on a global scale.


I would die to keep my country out of enemy hands. How is that not a worthy cause? There are plenty of worthy causes. Stopping somebody killing your family for example. But then, I guess all those who realised what a worthy cause actually means already joined the forces.
Dont forget that many on Earth today join the forces in order to get a decent paycheck so they can feed their family, personaly ideals have very little to do with that.

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 11:08
Nevermind.

Sorry Eulenspiegel. :p

Getz
06-10-2006, 11:18
3) On the field they require substantial quantities of material to maintain them-food, medicine, ammunition, transport. Is it less expensive to keep a Leman and crew in the field or a platoon of troopers?

You're rather ignoring the logistic nightmare that armoured units present. they require fuel, maintainance, spare parts, ammunition and all in vast quantities. They also require roads to get anywhere in a hurry, large bridges to cross deep rivers, are dificult to ship, all but impossible to air transport. supporting armour in the field leads to the necessity for Armoured Recovery Vehicles and Armoured Engineering vehicles...

The list goes on.

By contrast, Infantry units are potentially self sufficient (they can forage, although that might not be desirable) and in the Case of the IG, they logistic tail is shorter still thanks to the capabilities of the Lasgun.

A single tank almost certainly has a far greater logistic footprint than a platoon of infantry...


Some of the most tense, tactical, and fun games I have ever played have been IG vs IG or IG vs Lost and the Damned. THe IG is not meant to fight demonic supermen, high tech aliens, or montrous superpredators. The fact they can hold their own is very admirable. IG commanders have to be very skilled especially when on the assault. (Not a strong point for the guard)

Absolutely! I relish playing against other GEQ armies - lasguns actually kill stuff and you get to take armour saves. Also you tend to get much more tactical games. Playing Orks and Tau are similarly pleasureable...

Setrus
06-10-2006, 11:32
I'm no mod and have no wish to be drawn into this discussion.

BUT

No personal assaults, no calling anyone coward and DO NOT draw real life into the whole thing.

This is a game in what practically works as a FANTASY world. Sure, you can argue within causes and what they live by. But do NOT use real life like some sort of argument for your sake, you'll just **** everyone off and start an argument that has no place on this forum.

There are plenty other places for that, take it there.

And always remember: Your opinion isn't absolute.

Gen.Steiner
06-10-2006, 11:34
Just one and a half million troops is nothing if we are speaking of a war which takes on a global scale.

Indeed! It's absolutely nothing - the Soviet Union used over six million troops to take Berlin at the end of the second wold war, 25,000,000 Russians were killed from 1939-45, and the current peacetime strength of the Chinese People's Liberation Army stands at 2.25 million men and women (and that rises to 3.25 million if active paramilitary personnel are included)!

So, the PLA alone is twice the size of the supposed total of the Guard present on Armageddon.

Clearly, then, we must conclude that the 146 listed regiments are but a tiny fraction of the forces fighting on Armageddon.

Warning: Off Topic Statements and Queries Follow:


well if you look at it the imperium is very communist like. but much rather like war communist/ military dictatorship.

think about it evey one pretty much works for the constant war effort, be it supplies or actually being a solder. your forced to do what you do by dictators (dictators being the military generals). it pretty much a military dictatorship.

everyone works not for themselves but for the imperium. i dont see how it is not a communist like state.

Because it isn't.

Communism is an ideology which seeks to establish a future classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production and the absence of any forms of private property. - Wikipedia. It's as good a definition as any.

Communism is also atheist, scientific (supposedly), rationalistic, and logical. Do any of those, at all, apply to the Imperium? No.

The Imperium is a class-fractured society which contains a clergy, a boss class, a working class, a monolithic state presence, a ruling council in the name of a Deity (admittedly one that exists), private property, etc etc etc. It makes Stalin's worst excesses look like Nye Bevin.


i think we could sum it up by saying that the imperium is the imperium. the imperium IS Communism, Socialism, Bolshevism, Menshevism, Autocratic and Facist.

No. The Imperium is a totalitarian, authoritarian, monolithic theocratic dictatorship.

Individual worlds within the Imperium may be communist in the genuine sense of the word, or fascist, or national socialist, or democratic... but the Imperium itself is none of those things.

It's certainly not fascist!


while soldiers fight bravely, they never die for a cause worth fighting for. Because in reality that cause serves the interests of the rich and powerful.

Exactly. Well said, that man!


...no war for survival has ever been in vain

Really? What about the Tasmanians who the British destroyed utterly? Or the Aztecs, or the Incas, or the Florida Keys Indians the US army ethnically cleansed, or the Palestinians, or ... the list goes on. Wars for survival are in vain if you lose. :rolleyes:


I would die to keep my country out of enemy hands. How is that not a worthy cause?

Your country is an arbitrary division of territory based on the power struggles of the medieval and imperial periods, culminating probably in the period 1990-91 with the breakup of the Soviet Union and the creation of several new states in Eastern Europe. The fact that you live where you live is an accident of birth and, really, not something to be proud of or die for.

The only real worthy causes, worth dying for, are: 1) actual freedom, in other words anarchism, 2) protection of friends, family and loved ones.

That'd be it then. Certainly not protecting the rich and powerful's property, which is the root of national self defence - "you must protect our nation [while we flee abroad with all the money, ha ha ha]!"

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 11:42
What does England have to do with the break up of the Soviet Union? England has been England for thousands of years. Wait, does it say I live in Germany in my profile? I just serve here, I am actually English. being English IS something to be proud of, just as being from any other country is.

But quick, think of something to bring this back on topic. :O

Gen.Steiner
06-10-2006, 11:50
On Topic: Guardsmen - heroes, and glorious defenders of the Imperium of Humanity. Anyone says otherwise and I'll give 'em a fat lip. :p

Off Topic: No, I was using the breakup of the Soviet Union as a probable cap on the long period of nation creation.

England, as England, can probably be traced back to the conclusion of the Hundred Years' War, IMO, as that was - essentially - a French civil war.

However, as a modern nation-state, England really only arises at the end of the feudal period, round about the Tudor era.

It remains, however, an entirely artificial creation produced by the power struggles of kings, queens, and other members of the nobility of Europe. There's nothing particularly special or impressive about England (which is simply an arbitrary concept supported by props such as the flag, national myths, and the monarchy), or indeed any other nation. We're a bunch of humans living in a part of the world - and we could just as easily have been born elsewhere. Shockingly, so's everyone else...

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 11:56
Yes, but you were born THERE. That is something to be proud of (if you like your country, anyway).

And England / Britannia is much older than the Tudors. Just because the only true Britains are the Scottish and Welsh doesnt matter. :p Just because we are ruled by a German Queen, doesnt matter. :D

jfrazell
06-10-2006, 12:08
I'm not ruled by German Que...oh wait my wife's family's from there. I guess I am! :)

malika
06-10-2006, 12:13
Why this pride of being born at a certain place which as been given a certain cultural value? Why is that spot better than another spot?

Gen.Steiner
06-10-2006, 12:23
Yes, but you were born THERE. That is something to be proud of (if you like your country, anyway).

Why? I didn't do it. I am proud of things that I did. I'm proud of my friends when they achieve well, or do something they've always wanted to. I'm not proud of the fact that I was born. It happened. Meh. So what? I could just as easily have been born in France, the Congo, Vietnam, Holland... the Moon...


And England / Britannia is much older than the Tudors. Just because the only true Britains are the Scottish and Welsh doesnt matter. :p Just because we are ruled by a German Queen, doesnt matter. :D

Not really. As a modern nation-state England really only begins with the Tudors and Stuarts, and the beginning of, well, the modern nation-state. Previous to this it was a collection of feudal lords under the most powerful (read: most violent) of their number.

This applies, equally, to most of Europe - as modern nation-states you can't trace any nation further back than about the 16th Century.

Getz
06-10-2006, 13:04
Why? I didn't do it. I am proud of things that I did. I'm proud of my friends when they achieve well, or do something they've always wanted to. I'm not proud of the fact that I was born. It happened. Meh. So what? I could just as easily have been born in France, the Congo, Vietnam, Holland... the Moon...

To be fair, you'd have had great difficulty being born on the moon...

Gen.Steiner
06-10-2006, 13:10
To be fair, you'd have had great difficulty being born on the moon...

Well... yes, alright, but only if you accept that NASA doesn't have secret moon-men. ;) :p

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 13:11
Even if they have secret moon-men, you would still have great difficulty being born on the moon. Unless of course Russia has secret moon-women. :o

Gen.Steiner
06-10-2006, 13:13
Even if they have secret moon-men, you would still have great difficulty being born on the moon. Unless of course Russia has secret moon-women. :o

No, it's the Chinese who have the moon-women. Everyone knows that... :rolleyes: :p

Voronwe[MQ]
06-10-2006, 14:50
My estimation of the actual (ie, realistic, not official), numbers of Imperial troops on Armageddon would be something rough like ca.
2,5 billions local militia,
3 billions PDF,
14 millions present Armageddon Steel Legion Imperial Guard,
4,25 billions Imperial Guard of neighbouring systems to hub Armageddon,
2,75 billions Imperial Guard from the wide Imperium.

EDIT:
This would give 12 514 000 000 troops fighting on Armageddon; a fair amount of men and women at arms, in my opinion. Don't forgett that much of this is drawn from large areas, and Armageddon is populous enough to raise their numbers to this when attacked by a Waaagh!

malika
06-10-2006, 14:55
These numbers seem to make more sense than what GW is trying to shove down our troats.

Voronwe[MQ]
06-10-2006, 14:58
Yes, but imagination, calculation and rough estimation goes a long way: use your actual common sense, folks.

malika
06-10-2006, 15:00
Oh check this (http://www.student.tue.nl/t/j.c.a.v.d.werf/Warhammer/Bible/The%20Imperial%20Guard.htm#The%20Imperial%20Guard) site out, might be handy!

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 15:36
12billion fighting men? There is no way in hell any commander could even use a force on that scale.

Voronwe[MQ]
06-10-2006, 15:36
Ouch. That's a lot of information:)

EDIT:
Isn't there? Really? It's just a case of administration, as someone once said. Believe me. Of course there is confusing situations, schisms, incoordination between units etc, but that is very small when you have the administration to handle it, and the Imperial Guard must have it, lest they would be unable to undertake planetary/system spanning/sectorial campaigns of all their varying sizes. If they wouldn't have it, the Imperium would not exist.

12 billion fighting men is a reasonable number considering Armageddon's strategical importance, population and importance as a military deployment hub for the surrounding systems.

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 15:42
It takes the Imperium years to make desicions, any command and control desicions would have to be made on the ground, except a basic "Attack that planet".

malika
06-10-2006, 15:44
Years to make a decision? Isnt that a bit too extreme? If it takes years to get your act together you would have lost the war already...

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 15:45
Exactly my point.

Voronwe[MQ]
06-10-2006, 15:46
I agree a force of that size over such a large and, naturally, also implicating area would be hard to use. Mountains of reports would stack up, but that is a aspect of administration. Response would be slow and dependant on the local front commanders initiative.

EDIT:
Adaption is at the core of warfare. He who don't adapt, doesn't survive. The Imperium must adapt. It is not entirely Status Quo, you know, as the one constant in the universe is that of change.

View everything as realistic as possible. Don't be intimidated by size.

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 15:57
I can see only one way to manage an army of that size. Forget Terra, they are too far away to control this. Have one commander, probably Yarris in this case, then split all the other forces down into 50 or so forces and give them all different objectives. But unless the planet is MUCH larger than Earth, 12,000,000,000 men will be more of a hinderence than a help, with each battle force blocking others. It would be much more efficient to send your men in 100,000 strong at a time.

Voronwe[MQ]
06-10-2006, 16:01
Well, Earth's whole modern population can be stacked together on Gotland... However, you forgot to mention that there was a special reason for such a big force to be amassed: Ghazkull's Waaagh! The Imperium wanted to bind him there, and they succeeded, to enormous cost in men, women and materiel. There is many reasons, but consider 1-2 billions on a 'normal' world (not hive worlds) fighting would suit well 'locally'.

Llothlian
06-10-2006, 16:04
But you need LOTS of space to fight. Especially if you are going to be throwing heavy ordinance around, like the Guard are want to do.

Voronwe[MQ]
06-10-2006, 16:07
Well, I forgot to mention reserves. Of course you need a hell lot of space to fight, but Earth would give it plentiful. The world are not only Europe, Northern America and Japan.

Gen.Steiner
06-10-2006, 16:10
Even so, people're kind of ignoring my point that the Chinese People's Liberation Army consists of 3.25 million people.

Admittedly, only 1.6 million of those are front line fighting ground troops, but that's still the largest peacetime army on the planet at the moment.

If you take the combined total of Allied and Axis troops at their peak in WWII, you're looking at the kind of troop numbers that are feasible when defending a planet - and I think that'd still be at the low end.

Voronwe[MQ]
06-10-2006, 16:18
The low end certainly, and now war ain't peacetime and (pure joke) 40k ain't China:D 12 billions still stands for Armageddon, and I've been even more convinced since I read that Warp Travel article on the Anargo project.

EDIT:
Don't forgett that the colonies wasn't emptied, really, just some divisions raised here, and some there. The world is more than just North America, Europe and the Pacific Ocean.
Consider that a 'standard' world is settled pretty much all over, and I hope you'll get a better picture...
Earth's population has increased from 2.5 billions to 6.4 billions since WWII.
A 'standard' world have at least modern Earth's population.

Minister
07-10-2006, 01:20
I'm trying to remember the population of Necromunda, 'cause it could then be worked back to give a ball park figure for Armageddon (six hundred hive cities is a lot of people, then again I'm half remembering stuff for Confrontation so I may be talking out of my bottom again).

Assume ten billion for the sake of it, bearing in mind that the world was greatly depopulated and repopulated five hundred years ago (more than enough generations) and that there was a rather large war a generation or two ago, but it could easily be ten times that. Remember also that the Guard are a seperate concideration from the PDF.

Oh, and a point for this discussion, the Steel Legion are the Imperial Guard regiments recruited from Armageddon, and are seperate from the PDF (most of whom are equipped in the same manner anyway). Many of those serving nearby were recalled to defend their homeworld.

Temmy
07-10-2006, 03:09
As you can see here GW isnt very consistent about the number of soldiers in a regiment.

One thing to keep in mind is that GW probably has a British idea of what a regiment is. To Commonwealth armies, a regiment isn't a combat formation like a battalion or a division, its an administrative unit. Each Regiment in a commonwealth style army consists of at least one or two battalions, and often far more. Each regiment would recruit its own troops from a certain geographical area, ethnic group or for a certain function. They train together, and usually serve within thier own regiment for thier entire careers. Each regiment has its own battle standard with battle honours stitched onto it and its own band, customs and songs etc.

In war time, the various battalions of a regiment often serve on different fronts as part of different military formations. So, the first battalion of the Scottish Guards regiment might be in the second army fighting in one area, while the second and third battalions of the scottish guards would be in the fourth army serving on the other side of the world.

Gen.Steiner
07-10-2006, 10:21
Indeed. The Scottish Regiment has five battalions, but the Parachute Regiment has three (and the Pathfinder Company).

The Imperial Guard is much the same, in that its Regiments vary a lot in size, but at most the Regiment of the Guard can be no larger than will fit in one bulk transport.

Voronwe[MQ]
07-10-2006, 13:42
Hm, yes, six hundred hive cities is a hell lot of people, but I believe that Hive Primus is one of the biggest ones.
I did mention that the nearby Steel Legion regiments was drawn to the world, and that Armageddon PDF was separate from the IG regiments recruited there. Just look on page 8.
Regiments, divisions and other military units have always varied in size, and then there is that ol' greek's 'perfect coherency' view of things, saying that a phalanx (for example) is four hundred strong, six ranks deep and not a thing different. Reality, as we know, is not that precise or caring when it comes to rounding numbers off nicely, so there is always implications.

cailus
08-10-2006, 14:41
I actually think that the totally militarily illiterate people at GW think that 20,000 fighting troops is a lot. Look at Storm of Iron where one of the most important locations in the entire universe is guarded by a mere 20,000 soldiers.

GW and their associated authors frankly haven't got a clue.

The Emperor
08-10-2006, 20:13
while soldiers fight bravely, they never die for a cause worth fighting for. Because in reality that cause serves the interests of the rich and powerful.

Exactly. Well said, that man!

:rolleyes: And even if we were to assume that the causes are for the benefit of the rich and powerful, you think regular people don't benefit as well?



...no war for survival has ever been in vain

Really? What about the Tasmanians who the British destroyed utterly? Or the Aztecs, or the Incas, or the Florida Keys Indians the US army ethnically cleansed, or the Palestinians, or ... the list goes on. Wars for survival are in vain if you lose.

No they're not, as it's better to fight and possibly win then just give up. After all, you won't actually know that you could've win til you actually fight. It's the difference between courage and hope and surrender and despair.



I would die to keep my country out of enemy hands. How is that not a worthy cause?

Your country is an arbitrary division of territory based on the power struggles of the medieval and imperial periods, culminating probably in the period 1990-91 with the breakup of the Soviet Union and the creation of several new states in Eastern Europe. The fact that you live where you live is an accident of birth and, really, not something to be proud of or die for.

Ok, I know it's cliche' to bring up World War II, but what the hell. So you don't think fighting to prevent the Germans from winning in WWII was a cause worth dying for? You think that the British troops who fought and died wasted their lives? So should all the Allied troops just stayed home and sat on their hands while letting the Axis do whatever the Hell they liked?


The only real worthy causes, worth dying for, are: 1) actual freedom, in other words anarchism,

So a democratic state as opposed to a tyranny isn't preferable and worthwhile? You don't think living in a free society, with the right to freedom of speech, is preferable to living in a dictatorship where the people are executed for protesting against the government or because they're not of the correct ethnicity, religion, or race? You don't think that's something worth dying for, to provide a world for your family which, while not 100% free, isn't a better one then the one in which they live?

As for anarchy, how is that a worthwhile cause? In many ways, anarchy can be worse then any dictatorship. It's the epitome of the worst elements of a dictatorship, with the strong lording over the weak. And rest assured, that's what would happen. You can never have a pure anarchy as someone would always step in to fill the power vacuum. And you complain about the rich and powerful, yet you consider an anarchy, a world in which the strong can force their will on the weak with the only threat of repercussions being from someone stronger then they as something worth dying to create.


2) protection of friends, family and loved ones.

That'd be it then. Certainly not protecting the rich and powerful's property, which is the root of national self defence - "you must protect our nation [while we flee abroad with all the money, ha ha ha]!"

So when an enemy army invades, do they just shell the rich peoples houses, or do they shell everyone's houses? Do they just shoot dead the rich people in the street, or everyone? Do they rape the wives and daughters of just the rich people, or do they rape the wives and daughters of the poor people, too? If they do, then I'd be interested in their technology which allows their weaponry to unerringly strike rich people without fail, without harming poor people. I'd also love to hear about the examples of tyrannies which only hurt the rich people, and didn't oppress the poor people. Which only tortured, mutilated, and murdered the rich populace, while leaving the poor populace unscathed. Please, tell me more about how it isn't worth defending your country as you'd just be defending the interests of the rich and powerfuls property.

Gen.Steiner
08-10-2006, 20:16
The Imperial Guard - glorious defenders of Humanity without a doubt! :D

---------------------


Ignorant drivel.

Way to P&R the thread, foo'. PM me if you want a more coherent response, not that your dribbling deserves it.

The Emperor
08-10-2006, 20:23
Ignorant drivel would be an accurate description of your posts. Amazing. "No cause is worth dying for" ranks up pretty high as one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Gen.Steiner
08-10-2006, 20:31
The Imperial Guard, true and glorious defenders of the human race and the Imperium of Him on Terra.

As for the false Emperor, you ain't gonna get me riled like that. :p PM me if you want to have it out, otherwise don't derail this thread anymore than I and others already have.

TWB
09-10-2006, 01:42
The Imperial Guard, true and glorious defenders of the human race and the Imperium of Him on Terra.

As for the false Emperor, you ain't gonna get me riled like that. :p PM me if you want to have it out, otherwise don't derail this thread anymore than I and others already have.

Well said, on all fronts.

The Emperor, your comments are a little unnecessary, please try to remain at least civil.
Oh and I would advise against starting a PM argument too, as PM's are governed by the same rules as the rest of the forum.

Thanks.

TWB
Team Leader
Warseer Inquisition

Gen.Steiner
09-10-2006, 10:26
[color=#8999bb]I would advise against starting a PM argument too, as PM's are governed by the same rules as the rest of the forum.

They are? Ooh, learn something new every day.

Alright then, e-mail me if you really want to. :p

On topic, are we agreed that the Guard are, in fact, glorious and heroic defenders of Humanity?

Minister
09-10-2006, 10:52
They are when they win.

Gen.Steiner
09-10-2006, 11:03
Oh come on, even when they lose they lose heroically and gloriously. :p

Reflex
09-10-2006, 11:24
i played a game on the weekend. it was 20,000 points small. a pure Imperial guard forve Verses a pure tyranid force.

it came down to the last squad of guardsmen (conscripts!!!) killing 8 geensteelers. (in total there was the heroic senior officer, 242 scattered guardsmen, 30 conscripts (only full squad left) and 4 russ tanks left on the battlefield)

now these are the true defenders of humanity. the men out there on the table top destroying Xeno scum down to the last.

so are the imperial guard glorious... yes, table top acts of barvery count too, not just the fluff. are the imperial guard defenders? yes, sitting back in a bunker with 6 heavy bolters defending the objective ginst countless gaunts not defending the imperial territory.

thats one thing i see that this thread has not counted, the table top, sure its all about background and such, but we are talking about warhammer 40,000.

man that was a fun game.

Voronwe[MQ]
09-10-2006, 11:56
I actually think that the totally militarily illiterate people at GW think that 20,000 fighting troops is a lot. Look at Storm of Iron where one of the most important locations in the entire universe is guarded by a mere 20,000 soldiers.

GW and their associated authors frankly haven't got a clue.

Totally military illiterate is a bit harsh, though I see your point about GW's view of things.:rolleyes: And yes, a bit over 12 billions is pretty much precisely what I think fought on Armageddon.

Exactly, the game's important too in such aspects.;) 20'000 points? Hell, that's not a small amount of troops.:D

EDIT:
Don't forgett that it's soviet who actually won over Germany, and whilst the russian soldiers are very much alike the Imperial Guard (tragic heroes of a cruel regime), one must think of that it was really important to take as much of Europe as possible before Soviet had crushed Germany.

Llothlian
09-10-2006, 12:42
Oh come on, even when they lose they lose heroically and gloriously. :p

If they die they are granted the God-Emporers final peace, if they win they are heroes, if they run they are heretics who must be purged. So 2/3 of the time they are heroes. :D