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View Full Version : How do you kill those blasted Heiropants and Necromancers



Benji550
05-10-2006, 03:40
Recently I have had the displeasure of being crushed by a Tomb King player. Now, we all know to bring our anti-fear banners and our combat resolution items in hope of dwindeling their numbers in one eventful charge but the true way to destroy them is to kill the Heirophant. Now in both scenarios you have 1500 points of troops, list the top 5 models you would bring to lock your crosshiars on that Heirophant.

Scenario 1: The Heirophant is lingering behind terrain pieces with the cloak of something or another that allows him to fly. He's dancing around, casting incantations, and avoiding charges or artillery line of sight.

Scenario 2: Hes been bulked up with bound spell items, mounted, and placed on a flank in a unit of knights or chariots.

(This would be the same against Vampire Counts only the Necromancer would have a cloak of mists and shadows(3+ ward save against ranged weapons or in a large unit of grave guard with a vampire acommpanied by a vampire thrall of with some black knights.)

P.S. Please note which army, scenario, and list models in order of importance.

fubukii
05-10-2006, 05:12
for the flying Mage who is solo, non los magic will do great, as for a cloak of mist and shadow guy, shoot the knights then Beat down the unit and he will die of combat res and his unit can not be Raised since they grave guard :)

DeathlessDraich
05-10-2006, 08:20
1) For both armies - antimagic is important. VCs rely on summoning new units and enlarging existing ones. TK rely on restoring wounds and extra movement for charges.
2) VCs rely on using twice as many units to double charge and outnumbering by fear causer. Charge infantry blocks/units only if you're sure you can destroy all of them in the first turn or 2 turns if the charging unit will not be flanked later on.
3) TK's spells are vital to the TK player in turns 3 and 4 especially. They are cast in strict order, so you can anticipate which unit he 'really' wants to magically charge.
4) Your units will be faster than TK except for chariots. Lure the chariots into an ambush - they are far less effective after the charging.
5) Keep your units 12" away from infantry instead of 8". 4" movement and 8" magical charge. Use a similar calculation for faster units.
6) Don't expect to destroy the Hierophant or Tomb King in the early rounds. They'll be well protected. In the initial rounds, it is easier to destroy all small units with magic or shooting - dire wolves, bats, scorpions, small units of bowmen etc. If you target bigger units, then make sure it contains a necromancer or liche priest and thereby force them to move to different units for safety.

ROCKY
05-10-2006, 09:40
what army do play? Empire? dessimate his units with superior fire power and break throught with knights. now imo, itseasier to take on threts like that with chaos. u have furies and screamers to hunt down rogue mages and powerful units to wipe out the goons

Commissar Vaughn
05-10-2006, 09:56
If hes stupid enough to be in a unit a hero on a pegasus/great eagle etc is perfect as a one shot wizard slayer. Give him a lance or a nice big shiny sword but stuff the armour cos hes only got to last one round. When the necros unit advances hurl your hero across the table in to h2h against him and direct all your attacks against him (make sure hes in bsb) and smash his silly head in! Of course he might just challange you with a champion to prevent that hapening in which case you'll kill him then flee, hopefully outrunning them, which means you then get to rally and try again..and this time theres no silly champion!

IF hes flying around himself with lots of magical items of 'cant touch this'iness then hes a bit harder to catch unless he considerate enough to stand in front of a vollygun. But its the flying hero to the rescue again, this time with a ranged weapon about his person, a pair of pistols, a breath attack, a high elf flame thrower or longbow or maybe the doomfire ring :evilgrin:
Burn the witch!

Benji550
05-10-2006, 21:32
Great tips Commissar Vaugn, that would involve at least 2000 pts to work however (Empire lords are the only ones with Griffons). DeathlessDraich, also very helpful with the turns 3 and 4 tip (It realy works). Rocky, thats why I bought a Hellblaster. And fubukii that is presicely every Vampire Counts fear.

For the next scenario:

You're setting up for battle when you opponent pulls out a surprise, a Casket of Souls. What do you do cry, bail, or how do you move your units so it doesn'd dissamate your army with panic tests? We'll say its a ....2000-3000 pt game.

Commissar Vaughn
05-10-2006, 21:35
Well I reckon most of those could be adapted to other armies, most armies have something like a pegasus or hippogriff. just use yer noggin!

Benji550
05-10-2006, 21:43
Yes, that is true. What do you think of the new scenario? Got ideas?

KingNothing
06-10-2006, 01:19
I personally play Skyre Skaven and for the first scenario one you can use Jezzails to take him out, or in Scenario 2 if he is in a unit of chariots use a warp lightning cannon (pray for S 7+) and try to draw a line through all or most of the chairots to take them all out with a single wound.

Mooglemen
06-10-2006, 06:10
As a TK player, I have some things to say about the second scenario. First off, you have to understand that the casket is a psychological weapon more than it is a real threat. Just having the casket on the table causes you (the opponent) to save dice or a scroll to dispell it. This is exactly why I use the casket. While you are saving dice to stop the casket which may or may not actually kill much, I have much more leeway to cast my other spells. So, you have to ask yourself at the start of each TK magic phase, "How much can that casket really see/kill?" If the answer is "not much", then you are probably better off letting the casket go because the TK player is banking on you overestimating the casket's abilities. As long as you fear the casket, it is doing it's job even if it never goes off. So, consider carefully which spells you choose to stop and which you allow to get through. I find the casket really opens up my options in terms of magical charges/ extra attcks.

As for killing the thing, send something fast (flyers work well, also tunnelers, scouts, fast cav etc.) at it. Beware of it's terror, but if you get the charge, you should be able to kill it. Sure, it's guarded by two Tomb Guard, but no matter how elite the guys are, they are still just skellies and they die like any other skellie. The fact that there are only two of them means that if anything is left alive to strike back, it won't be a very impressive retalliation.

One more thing, any TK player worth his salt will NOT have his heirophant on the casket! Locking such an important character in place is foolish at best and often self-destructive. Also, the faster you can kill the casket, the faster you can regain a foothold on the magic phase. Killing the casket not only removes the casket, but the Liche on it as well. This is a huge swing in your favor as it removes two spells at least.

I know you want to kill that heirophant, but I have to say that protecting that guy is priority number one on any TK players mind. I'm only an average player in my estimation, but I still very rarely lose my Heiro. This is because protecting him comes before all other tactical considerations. I cannot envision a scenario where allowing your heirophant to die would be an acceptable loss. Instead of targeting the heirophant, you should consider targeting his other liches. These tend to be less well protected, and killing them lowers the overall effectiveness of his magic phase. Since the TK's live and die by their magic, you have just gained the upper hand if you can realistically match each of his spells with a sifficient number of dispell dice.

I think I may have rambled on a bit too long. Hope this helped.

larabic
06-10-2006, 07:00
Commissar Vaughn tactic may not work if there is a unit champion that can challenge the guy on pegasus. You will lose combat and flee in most instance.

If your having trouble eyeballing him get some galloper guns to chase him around, that usually scares them.

When i play undead i very rarely go after the general. I take out his weak units and make sure that i sacrifice less then i am killing so you come out ahead in victory points. Dont engage his high cost units if you can help it.

EvC
06-10-2006, 07:54
If hes stupid enough to be in a unit a hero on a pegasus/great eagle etc is perfect as a one shot wizard slayer.

"stupid"?! Don't know if you got the memo, but leaving a character out on his own in the open is suicide these days, they [retty much have to be put inside a unit!

Nkari
06-10-2006, 08:10
Winning vs undead lesson 1..

2-3 characters on flying mounts or horses, with 4 or more attacks with 5 or more in strenth.. charge the T3 magic users with no armour and kill them.. dont give a crap if the characters or units you have killed the characters with by turn 2 dies.,. you have done your job by shutting down their magic phase.. then its just a question of movement.. =) And if they manage to outpace the undead, the better.. now then can rally and do it again in turn 4..

Commissar Vaughn
06-10-2006, 09:55
"stupid"?! Don't know if you got the memo, but leaving a character out on his own in the open is suicide these days, they [retty much have to be put inside a unit!

I know! great aint it, he cant dodge or anything!

And i did point out the challange is a weakness, unfortunatly the only way round it is to have two heroes fighting together....

One of my regular opponents tends to have a vampire lord and a necro in the same unit of skellies and Ive developed good trick for taking it on with my empire. Charge the flying bod into the front. If he thinks hes about to lose a wizard he'll probably challange with the vamp. If he doesnt he's lost his wizard, and if he does the van horstmans speculum means his vamp kicks his own head in! Either way you'll probably flee, and then rally, then go again! And he's either lost his general or a wizard.....:evilgrin:

Against the casket of souls: to be honest I have no idea never seen it used, though if it can see me I can see it and a cannon ball is always fun.

Latro
06-10-2006, 10:31
Welcome to the Necro-bunker! (or Liche Priest bunker for that matter)

Place your vulnerable magic-users in a unit of bodyguards, zombies or skeletons are excellent for this job. Make sure your characters are placed in the middle of the front rank, not on the flanks! Now position another one of your infantry units directly in front of the guard unit ... and with "directly" I mean less than 1" between them.

Congratulations! You have just created the Necro-bunker! Don't forget to laugh at your opponent while he tries to figure out why his brilliant strategy of "nail the necro" doesn't work!

:D

Commissar Vaughn
06-10-2006, 10:43
the leading unit will have to be rather big though lest a unit of knights led by a hero overrun it and still nail the necro! and if youve spent points making it that big then your battle line is shorter and more easily flanked...etc etc

Benji550
06-10-2006, 22:53
Thank you Moogleman, it takes a Tk strategist to know ones strategies.
Great tips from everyone else as well.

Vampire Lords and Tomb Kings are the most powerful individuals. What are everyones favorite combos

Mine A Vampire Lord

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 10 6 5 5 4 8 5 10

Level 3 Wizard

Red Fury 30 pts: +1 Attack
Honour or Death 10 pts: Ld test to challenge the Vampire
Ring of the Night 30 pts: 5+ Ward save
Book of Arkhan 25 pts: Bound spell lvl 3
Any unit in line of sight of the caster may move 8"
or charge.

Lets the Lord's or any unit in his line of sight be able to charge 24".
(The lord is a Blood Dragon)

Latro
07-10-2006, 07:52
the leading unit will have to be rather big though lest a unit of knights led by a hero overrun it and still nail the necro! and if youve spent points making it that big then your battle line is shorter and more easily flanked...etc etc

I wouldn't be too worried about that:

- How many Knight units actually have the hitting power to smash through a 20+ strong (= normal strength) undead unit in one round?

- For the points you pay for such an elite Knight unit the Undead player can afford two units at least ... or one of monstrous size that can hold up anything.

- If there's one thing the typical Undead player isn't afraid of, it's the one single Uber Unit of Doom ... because it only takes a single succesful casting of the Invocation to divert the threat.

There's only one advice I would give to people concerning this: nail the necro if you get the opportunity, but if you make it your main strategy you will only be hurting yourself.

Benji550
07-10-2006, 14:59
Well said Latro, also in the new rules one unit cannot charge two and in my experience TK players like to put weaker units but twice as many and all next to each other. Easy flanking opportunities are created. Or even worse they use this tactic on one flank to break through and its all downhill from there. For this reason you seriously need some units in reserve against TKs. If they flak the main force send forth the reserve unit of say, 5 knights may be enough.

Alathir
07-10-2006, 17:48
I agree with Mooglemen, I find that targetting all your efforts on slaying the heirophant only ends in death. I have versed Khemri many, many times and I whole heartedly agree that killing their other liches is just as crippling.

Slayhem
07-10-2006, 18:29
Hey Alathir, did you find any suitable bear models?

Benji550
07-10-2006, 18:53
Killing the other liches is just as crippling but no one has mentioned Vampire Count anti-necromancer tactics (they do work completely different). VC necomancers are usualy found at the center of the playing feild as well and will most likely be in a unit (scuicide not to) of Grave Guard or accompanied by a thrall or a wight unless the general is a Vampire Lord. Who's got tips on dealing with them?

Alathir
08-10-2006, 15:09
Hey Alathir, did you find any suitable bear models?

I've found some.. but nothing spectacular yet. I'm going to do some more looking around. Thanks for asking though. :D