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mikec_81
05-10-2006, 05:31
I was told to post a thread here from the discussion generated from http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51427

I am hoping someone would be kind enough to talk to me about troop selection and how to expand on what I have now if I want to be competitive on the tournament scene. Or if Empire is not a seriously competitive army, advice on which armies to look to. I also know Empire is supposed to get a facelift but thats ok.

Also I am not looking for some 'trick' army that will do amazingly good against say 75% of likely competition but fail miserably right out of the gate against the other 25%. So basically, an army that is very strong against the widest number of opponents possible and still leave me a fighting chance if I run across a "trick" army. And if I do lose right out of the gate to a trick army, I want to know that it will be against an army that will probably lose horribly to a significant number of other opponents.

What models I have right now:

24 Halberdiers
20 Spearmen
16 Handgunners
20 Swordsmen
1 Cannon
Assorted special character models on foot and horse

Almost done painting all of the doods right now and will be expanding soon.

What I know right now:

I have been on warhammer-empire.com and have read the The Village Idiot tactica. Is that type of list still competitive (the article said he won a 2003 tourney with it)? Does it have gaping holes that have been exposed since then?

Another suggestion from the thread linked above was a gunline which I assume is handgunners with more handgunners and cannons and mortars. Is that type of list competitive? Does it have gaping holes that will leave me doomed against some armies?

He also suggested a vague cavalry army which I assume would be mostly knights. Same questions.

Thank you kindly in advance, and yes I will go to warhammer-empire to ask as well. Please, no haters. :)

fubukii
05-10-2006, 05:45
Gettting a steam tank with a volley gun mounted on it is a great start towards being a "Leet" empire power gamer.

AngelofSorrow
05-10-2006, 06:11
This is the most honest post I think I have ever seen in my life.
Anyway mike there should be, if you search around on this site, a tactics page for empire give it a look through there should be some good stuff in that.

Z-chan
05-10-2006, 06:45
Go overboard on pistoliers, hellblasters and cannons. And take a heavens wizard.

Kedlav
05-10-2006, 06:55
TVI still works. In fact, with the nerfing of ratling guns, it works even more effectively, provided you have prior knowledge of a Skaven opponent and rotate in a pair of handgunner detachments to pop them.

Edit:
-Steam Tanks are pure, unadulterated Limburgher Cheese, provided you don't take the mortar tank, which is just a stinky swiss cheese.

-Pistoliers rock. They can break light infantry on the charge pretty regularly without support. When they hit a flank, you're pretty much assured to win combat.

-Helblasters autohit. Nothing pisses off a Lizzie player more than the 'blaster tank and a seperate blaster, as the two blasters rock annoying skirmishing skinks and the tank can hurt Saurus as well.

-Swordsmen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>other infantry. This includes Greatswords. I still use Greatswords for pop and the fact I'm not going to put together and paint multipart infantry when nice, shiny new two or three part plastics are on the horizon, but still, swords rock.

-Flagellants are awesome tarpits. 2 attacks, S5 on first round, T4 humans that don't break, don't fear, etc. Combine them with a pistolier unit hitting a flank and just about anything will cry uncle.

Griefbringer
05-10-2006, 07:00
Powergaming abominations that I have seen with Empire tend to often involve following elements:

- Steam tank
- Small unit of knights of inner circle (with lances)
- Small unit of knights of inner circle (white wolves)
- Unit of huntsmen
- Helblaster
- Lots of cannons (perhaps mortar or two)
- Infantry block with Gryphon banner (if you take Elector Count)
- Van Horstman's speculum
- Wizards (as many as you can get)

Dead
05-10-2006, 13:35
with 7th ed can pistolier's still hit a flank and expect to win in combat? i figured the new pistol rules would have a negitive impact on that

T10
05-10-2006, 14:05
They are still quite good. They no longer have the "auto-win" feature, true, but that just means you have to be more selective.

-T10

Mephistofeles
05-10-2006, 16:30
Don't go for a gunline, that I can tell you. Sure, it's good against a lot of armies, but it gets absolutely pawned by some, so not so good to bring to a tournament perhaps.

And then there is the fact that EVERYBODY hates the gunline-player...

Morghat
05-10-2006, 17:55
everybody hate gunline because it's powergaming :)
gunline is very nasty, i haven't played much against empire but gunline is what i really hate (played several timed against gunline) :)

IcedCrow
05-10-2006, 18:01
He just asked you to help him powergame. Gunline empire army with hellblaster steam tank and 4 maxed out wizards is one variant. The all cavalry with hellblaster steam tank is another variant that I've seen as popular.

In either case the thing is to maximize one type of model. So a gunline you'd get about 100 gunners with a steam tank, 3 cannons and a mortar, a hellblaster, and the four wizards for some dice rolling fun.

laughingman
05-10-2006, 18:32
im wondering if he wants to win games or win tournaments, theres a big difference between the two.

mikec_81
05-10-2006, 21:15
im wondering if he wants to win games or win tournaments, theres a big difference between the two.

Please explain this.

Freak Ona Leash
05-10-2006, 21:22
Please explain this.Well winning tournaments could also depend on "Soft" scores scuh as army comp and apinting abd sportmanship. Painting is something your choice of army really has no control over but sportsmanship and army comp...well, does may take a hit. Though, people shouldnt mark you down for sportmanship just for having a WAAC army. If you are a WAAC rules lawyer however (you dont seem to be so no worries eh?) than you should be. But yeah, since army comp. is only one score, it wouldnt severly effect your place in tournaments.

Nkari
05-10-2006, 21:31
In 7th edition I would do the following..

2 hellblasters (auto hits on skirmrish units such as wood elves is godsend!!)
2 cannons
2 mortars
3 units of 6 knights with full command 1 inner circle
Lvl 4 wizard using Lore of Fire or Metal, depending on if you are facing a horde army or a cav army. with the save dispell/power dice item.
2 more lvl 2's with magic boosting items or dispell scrolls.. do as you wish, would probably use Fire or metal on them to..
1 Priest on horse kitet out for killing undead..

Use what ever points you have left on 10-12ish big units of shooting, and or a block or two with infantry to hide your wizards in..

Neknoh
05-10-2006, 21:36
To quote the most well known Power Gamer to the Warseer Society,

"My army is balanced, it has magic (the afforementioned 14 powerdice in 2k), shooting in the form of 50 handgunners, movement (5 knights and the STank) and combat (the 5 knights and the steamtank)"

After a talk with him (don't know wether or not someone actually managed to ban him for good, the sneeky git kept on changing his IP), you should be able to find everything you need on how to create a powergaming army.
... oh right, I nearly forgot ... Don't EVER play to win at the cost of the spirit of the game!!

Toddums
05-10-2006, 21:56
You could be competitive and have fun and win without being a "powergamer". Why do you want to win so badly? Wouldn't you rather you and your opponent have fun?

mikec_81
05-10-2006, 22:28
Well winning tournaments could also depend on "Soft" scores scuh as army comp and apinting abd sportmanship. Painting is something your choice of army really has no control over but sportsmanship and army comp...well, does may take a hit. Though, people shouldnt mark you down for sportmanship just for having a WAAC army. If you are a WAAC rules lawyer however (you dont seem to be so no worries eh?) than you should be. But yeah, since army comp. is only one score, it wouldnt severly effect your place in tournaments.

It was actually the discussion on the "playing to win a sin?" thread that led me to conclude going to tournaments is where I would find the opponents who would have similar mentalities to the game. Its not a big overriding issue for me to win it all. Being competitive and playing against other people who won't pull punches when making choosing their units is whats important to me. So I guess I can live with someone trashing my sportsmanship score over my choice of units.


You could be competitive and have fun and win without being a "powergamer". Why do you want to win so badly? Wouldn't you rather you and your opponent have fun?

Its just how I play games. It also takes the game to the extremes and sees how well the rules hold up under intense pressure. Sometimes the game isn't well balanced and rules don't hold up well at all so it rapidly devolves into everyone trying to press the "I win" button and anyone who doesn't loses. Dawn of War's initial release was kind of like that. Mass assault space marines/Chaos raptors or you lose, period. I have heard that it is since much better.

If the game is good though, then it won't break even if submitted to intense pressure. There will always be enough options open to a player to keep the game from going stale. Its a lot of fun to continually improve yourself at the game and find new ways to counter tactics and then finding new ones to counter those. The game evolve and player discover possibilities that they wouldn't have discovered if they had tried to keep those "cheap" tactics out of the game in the first place.

Brushmonkey
05-10-2006, 22:30
If it's tournys you plan on winning then be careful of the Empire gunline, it has been done to death and most experienced players know how (and take steps accordingly) to take it out. It only takes one unit of non-standard-movers to really mess up your day. Add to that the fact that you are unlikely to get 3 x Second Sign, and it could get tricky if you roll some misfires...:eek:

laughingman
05-10-2006, 22:51
If it's tournys you plan on winning then be careful of the Empire gunline, it has been done to death and most experienced players know how (and take steps accordingly) to take it out. It only takes one unit of non-standard-movers to really mess up your day. Add to that the fact that you are unlikely to get 3 x Second Sign, and it could get tricky if you roll some misfires...:eek:you can still do a gunline, just keep the stank and forget about it if a cannon dies, itle happen.

Brushmonkey
05-10-2006, 23:01
Im not saying don't do it. I'm just saying that it's not a no-brainer choice any more.

Nkari
06-10-2006, 08:07
Actually I think the gunline is more viable in 7th, thanks to the new targeting rules, and the revised magic rules.. (lots and lots of magic missiles with no armour save.. ;) )

the anti santa
07-10-2006, 10:15
Well surely the gunline chances of winning depends a lot of wheather you get 1st turn or not.

if facing another shooty/magic heavy army they can shoot or magic you up pretty bad.
If facing a fast army or 1 with many scouts you may only get 1 round of shooting before they are on you.

Hiisi
09-10-2006, 08:40
simple more guns!! exept if you wanna keep your friends

Shagrat
09-10-2006, 15:53
There's another way. Karl Franz on Griffon(with Ghal Maraz, of course), a Steam Tank and Asarnil the Dragon Lord. Use the remaining ponits in IC Knights, handgunners and cannons...

Neknoh
09-10-2006, 16:53
. . . you sir, deserve an utter and complete beheading, followed by hanging from the remainder of your neck whilst you are being mocked by midgets and harried by hornets for your extreme levels of cheese :p

Truth be told, that would just be mean, although, I think Valted, exalted of Sigmar together with a VH specculum Wizard General would make that list a tad more evil

gortexgunnerson
10-10-2006, 20:24
My emprie army I played in the portent tournie and came out with 4 wins and 1 minor loss so second to the guy that beat me in a hard fought game was;

Rastilin Wizard Lord Lv4 210
dispel 25
Van horse spectum 25

Priest 95
harm, GW 8
shield 2
Icon of Magus 30

Engineer 55
Repeater Pistol 10
l arm 2
Orb of thunder 40

Wizard Lv2 95
Rod of power 45

18 Great Swords 216
Command 30
Griffon Standard 50

detachments
8 Swordsmen 56

8 Swordsmen 56

Mortor 75
Cannon 100
Cannon 100
Hellblaster 125
Hellblaster 125

10 Handgunners Mus 85
Marksman Hochland rifle 25
Detach
5 Handgunners 40

10 Handgunners 80
Marksman Hochland rifle 25
Detach
5 Handgunners 40

10 Archers 80

5 Huntsmen 50


2000

This isnt totally maxed as I rarely use cavalry in any of my lists, im too ingrained by playing dwarfs for years. But it is pretty nasty as the powerhouse combat unit can hold quite a lot of board and stops your gunline getting attacked too soon whilst good use of the missile troops brings down flanking units. Big weakness is units like ambushing herds or flying terror causers which tear up the poor leadership

Freenut
10-10-2006, 20:45
Had a friend bring this to a recent RTT.

Karl Franz

Dogs of War dragon

Steam tank with hellblaster

4 cannons

3 units of 10 hand gunners
He finished second in battle points. Of coruse he finished dead last in army compisition.

gukal
10-10-2006, 21:20
I have one bit of advice:

Beware taking the gunline to tournies for another reason. You've probably heard the expression "paper, rock, scissors" armies. Basically, some match-ups can very nearly be settled by just comparing army lists.

Some armies are so weak against a gunline, that advancing and playing the game normally equals auto-massacre for them. Accordingly, some opponents will opt to take the auto-draw and hide their valuable units behind all available terrain. They will make no real effort to score points. Instead, they will set up charges on the choke points and wait you out.

Even if you massacre your other opponants, you'll place an anonymous 30th out of 200.

The way to powergame a tournament in my opinion is to make your opponant believe he has a chance until at least mid-game. Then score your massacre. For that you need a mobile force that appears balanced or even weak. In this sense, metagaming is as important as powergaming. That's one of the charms of the Village Idiot (cocky players look at his army with contempt right up until they lose).

The better a player you are, the more concessions you can make from obvious powergaming and the more likely you are to actually win a tournament.

- Gukal

DarkTerror
11-10-2006, 03:19
In a powergaming army I'd have two volley guns, two great cannons, two units of pistoliers, a Lord packed into a large unit of knights, a powerful foot unit of choice with detatchments with a strong character and two mages level 2 mages. Ugh, what a stupid army, but it'll be strong.

Neknoh
11-10-2006, 06:01
I was under the impression that Great Cannons were Rare choices.

Anyhow, what kind of army are you most likely to face? Loads of T3 poorly armoured troops? Then I'd suggest stacking up on 4 Mortars, 1 Great Cannon and 1 Hellblaster, if you're going to face more heavely armed forces, I'd go for 2 Mortars, 2 Cannons, 1 Great Cannon and 1 Steamtank Hellblaster.

Frankly
11-10-2006, 07:00
Well surely the gunline chances of winning depends a lot of wheather you get 1st turn or not.



More importantly, its what you support the gunline with.

If you supported them with huge blocks of infantry with detachments, then you can either shoot "elite" units(or small elite armylists) to death and mop up with your rank and file units. Or you could knock off rank and file bonuses off hordish units and then have your infantry units going into battle with supior CR bonuses.

I usually play with about 220 models in my latest empire army, 40-50 H.gunners and 2 units of pistoliers. The of the units rest are free company troops, hunters etc, etc. (its a heavily themed armylist) and it does really well since it have the suppport for the gunline.

If I wanted to cheese it out in the past, then I add 3 cannons(drop of pistolier unit), Take a lord wizard, a BSB, 2 supporting wizards and snipe with heaven's magic, cannons and Hoch Long rifles using re-rolls from the magic phase to take out enemy characters and champions. Basically your running a watered down SAD list thats better in the shooting phase.

But if I took this to a tournament I might win best battle comp, but wouldn't win the tournament due to a bad player's comp score.

I haven't played the armylist in 7th Ed so don't know how things will run. But IMO Empire are still a Powergamers dream.

nathonicus
28-10-2006, 14:28
I am honestly of the opinion that unless you really screw up your Army comp, your generalship is much more important than your roster in determining your win. A good way of looking at troop selection that I got from a 40k tactica is balancing specialization with the liklihood of encounter.

For instance, magic is certain to play a factor, so beefing up on magic neutralization is a very good choice. Many armies are unaffected by psychology, so sinking tons of points into tactics designed to exploit psych will not be as efficient in an all-comers list.

I think some key elements are:
Magic neutralization -- This isn't neccesarily dispel scrolls. A combo of wizards/priests or even hochland long rifles can fall into this category, with longrifles being multipurpose)
Monster elimination (almost every army has one, and the psych plus movement issues can really be a pain)
Maneuvering units (faster units are good for this. Small knight blocks, pistoliers. These are great for setting up denied flanks. Ideally it's something hard enough that it can't be ignored, so a powerful unit is set up to counter it. You can then lead the unit into your killing units or press the flank if the opporuntiy arises. The point of these units should be to delay important units from fighting so that you can kill the rest.)
Killing Unit-- This can be gunlines, infantry lines, or cav, but they need to be the core of your army and they need to be several units (no single super units!) so that they can operate even if one is nuked or reduced in efficieny.

What units are best is really a matter of matching your play style. The most capable army will have balanced cav, guns, and infantry with a slight emphasis on your preferred roll. The key is try to have a plan for the likeliest threats, and to try and use as many multi-purpose units to protect yourself as possible.

Some things I wouldn't leave home without:
Pistoliers- Great for killing skirmishers, blocking marches, protecting flanks, nullifying ranks, etc. One of the most versatile and useful units
Great Cannons - As has been mentioned, leadership is a serious problem and a great cannon can eliminate a flying, terror-causing beastie in one shot
Life Magic - I find this the most useful because it is great for targeting artillery, skirmishers in woods, or delaying key units depending on what spells you get.
Numbers - Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are both skewed in favor of who brings the most swords/guns to the fight.

Akuma
28-10-2006, 15:20
How to powergame with empire ?

Simple realy -

1. 4 great cannons
2. 2 hellblasters
3. 4 units of 10 handgunners ( possible with HLR )
4. Balthazar Gelt ( you can take him ALWAYS under new rules AND he rocks with new metal lore ) + full mage squad ( 3 other 2 lvl mages )
5. Fill the rest with small ( 5 or 6 strong ) units of knights

Great aginst some - lame agint others - for someone that doesnt enjoy tactics and challange just perfect list :) - all you have to do is to throw dices :D

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
30-10-2006, 20:59
I find that I fair pretty competitively with a balanced Empire list. Elector count for that luverly Griffon Banner (apparently going up to 55 points?), barded and plated with a runefang, or lance and that 4+ ward save item (forget name temporarily), BSB on foot with full plate banner depending upon what army I'm facing, WP on foot with GW, and dispell caddy Wizard. 27 Spearmen with the Griffon Standard and WP (lots of attacks, great rank bonus, decent armor save) with a detatchment of swordsmen and a detatchment of halberdiers (8 each), 2x 10 handgunners (counter infantry), 10 crossbowmen (target enemy shooters at longe range), 19 greatswords with BSB, 8 IC vannilla knights with elector count, 15 free company, a cannon, a mortar, a helblaster.
This army stands a fair chance against almost all comers. It can fight in CC with some degree of capability, it can dish out some shooty pain, and while it lacks in magic, it is not particularly vulnerable to it either. Plus, my opponents never cry cheese, and it encourages my regular opponents to play balanced lists themselves, which is a definite plus.

DesolationAngel
01-11-2006, 18:11
The list I use has (2,000pts) ...

Empire Army List - 2,000pts

Lord – Grandmaster with Sword of Power and Holy Relic

Hero – Wizard (Level 2) with Powerstone

Hero – Wizard (Level 2) with 2 Dispel Scrolls

Hero – Master Engineer with Hochland Long Rifle Light Armour

Core – Knights (6) with Command, Inner Circle and Steel Standard

Core – Swordsmen (25) with Command
(Detachment) – Crossbowmen (7)
Core – Handgunners (11) with Marksman
Core – Handgunners (11) with Marksman

(Core) – Huntsmen (6)

Special – Pistolers (7) with Marksman

Special – Great Cannon
Special – Great Cannon
Special – Great Cannon

Rare – Hellblaster Volleygun
Rare – Hellblaster Volleygun

2000

You can lose the powerstone for 3 more crossbowmen (could change to handgunners, maybe even 2 units of 5), then maybe a cannon for a mortar and something else, but to me the cannons and knights deal with the big/tough units, magic plays a supporting role and the other units can deal with lighter things (volleyguns vs skirmishers for example).

Pistollers aren't as good in combat anymore, so you need to be a bit selective with who they charge, although moving shooting 14 shots and again when you get charged isn't too bad, when supported by the rest of the army.

Really I don't think a pure gunline works that well (esp with changes to heavens, rerolls on a 2 and not on misfire results anymore), a mix of cannons, fast units and solid infantry is the way to go IMO.

Having said that it really does depend on the player using any list on how well it will do.