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NakedFisherman
05-10-2006, 14:19
Now, by my reading of the rules the only thing stopping units in rear ranks from shooting is line of sight.

Consider this situation:

TTTTT
TTTTT
TTTTT

The green T's are models on a hill. They can fire in two ranks according to the rules for shooting from a hill.

Since hills and elevated positions mentions drawing line of sight from the models to the target, this means that the models on the hill may see over those on the flat. Considering this, the red T's can fire because they're obviously the front rank and can see targets just fine, while all the green T's can fire as well since the first rank of green T's can see over the red T's on the flat.

Correct?

ZomboCom
05-10-2006, 14:44
No, it doesn't work that way at all I'm afraid.

If the unit is partially on a hill, it can still only fire from the first two ranks, NOT the first two ranks on the hill.

Basically you'll still only get two ranks of shots no matter what.

TheWarSmith
05-10-2006, 15:43
I thought of this too in the beginning but as you read later about hills, it specifically states that it allows missile troops to shoot an extra rank. It'd be nice, but broken, if you could fire all of your ranks.

Festus
05-10-2006, 15:49
Hi

Yes, the rules say that if your unit is on a hill, one extra rank may fire.
p.26

Festus

NakedFisherman
05-10-2006, 16:48
Hi

Yes, the rules say that if your unit is on a hill, one extra rank may fire.
p.26

Festus


If the unit is partially on a hill, it can still only fire from the first two ranks, NOT the first two ranks on the hill.

'One extra rank' doesn't mean the first and second rank.

DeathlessDraich
05-10-2006, 16:51
Hi

Yes, the rules say that if your unit is on a hill, one extra rank may fire.
p.26

Festus

This is the 6th rules.
There has been a change in the 7th.

6th: "troops on a hill ... can fire with one additional rank"
7th: "a unit of archers can shoot with its first two ranks when standing on a hill"

N.B. It does not state that the whole unit must be on the hill for both sets of rules

An important change and definitive! In the example given the red and one green rank can shoot.
A DE elf player I played against used to employ 3 ranks of archers in shooting using the 6th rules.

The use of the word archers is another GW oversight because it might negate this rule for ranked units that do not shoot with arrows e.g. Thunderers, Handgunners! I don't think this was intended.

NakedFisherman
05-10-2006, 16:57
The use of the word archers is another GW oversight because it might negate this rule for ranked units that do not shoot with arrows e.g. Thunderers, Handgunners! I don't think this was intended.

That's because it's an example and not the rule.

Festus
05-10-2006, 17:03
Hi

This is the 6th rules.
There has been a change in the 7th.

6th: "troops on a hill ... can fire with one additional rank"
7th: "a unit of archers can shoot with its first two ranks when standing on a hill"
Go on, reread your rulebook: The sentence you just quoted from 6th is the rule in 7th, the thing you quoted from 7th is the example to the rule :rolleyes:

DeathlessDraich
05-10-2006, 17:14
Yes I know. There is an important change. I should have quoted everything:
6th: "...additional rank etc... most bowmen can shoot with 2 ranks"
Implying any 2 ranks.

This is more restrictive in 7th. From the 'example statement' quoted, it seems only the first 2 ranks can shoot.
Does this example qualify the meaning of 'additional rank'?
Perhaps, but I'm sure it will be debated by players.

Festus
05-10-2006, 17:23
Hi

You don't get it, do you?

The rule is, that troops on a hill may shoot with one additional rank. Then the example gives us first two ranks of a unit - of which we don't even know if it has more than two ranks to begin with...

It is not necessary to know which rank fires as well, as the player will want to use a rank of as many models as possible and wll thus not use the last - incomplete - rank if possible otherwise .

Sandals
05-10-2006, 17:55
Festus is right.

as an important extra to this (and to complicate the situation somewhat :D) remember that now a unit on the flat can fire with an additional rank at a unit on a hill
i believe they are treated as a large target for LoS purposes.

NakedFisherman
05-10-2006, 17:57
Festus is right.

as an important extra to this (and to complicate the situation somewhat :D) remember that now a unit on the flat can fire with an additional rank at a unit on a hill
i believe they are treated as a large target for LoS purposes.

They can fire with all ranks because troops behind the first rank have line of sight.

Festus
05-10-2006, 18:00
Hi

Yes, you can shoot at troops on hills as if shooting at large targets - meaning: all ranks can shoot.

Festus

Sandals
05-10-2006, 18:22
Hi

Yes, you can shoot at troops on hills as if shooting at large targets - meaning: all ranks can shoot.

Festus

fair enough. not that i really need to worry, i don't have ranks of archers or large targets in my army!!! ;)

Crazy Harborc
05-10-2006, 19:49
So?........I put a unit of shooters on the flat ground. I put the other unit of shooters on the hill behind them. Then there was the shooters on their left and right:D Then there WAS the CANNONS, all three of them. There, there were eighty handgunners, I threw in 20 crossbows too. When the smoke cleared............Two chaos units were limping away. Well, more like a one-legged hop run. Hey, he started it. Hiding behind two hills and a woods.

We all had fun and I bought the beer.....so there:p I LIKE Chaos warrior units...They caught my lead RREEeealll good.

T10
06-10-2006, 05:49
Not that it's covered by the rules or anything, but how much of the unit should actually be on the hill for thos shooting from/shooting at rules to apply?

-T10

Festus
06-10-2006, 07:39
Hi

The rules say *troops on hills*, so I take it as those parts of a unit/models which are actually on a hill.
If your unit is to the left of a hill and only two files are actually on the hill, I'd only allow those two backrankers to fire.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
06-10-2006, 09:22
I still believe the rules are not clear enough to make a definite judgement on the case cited.
'Additional' rank means one more rank but does not specify which rank.

Whether it is the rank immediately behind the normal shooting rank or ranks further behind does not matter in most cases.

In the case above, different interpretations of 'additional' rank will lead to the 2 possible outcomes:

a) 1 rank on the flat and 1 rank on the hill shoot. - This is from the interpretation that only the front rank can always shoot under normal circumstances AND that front rank is already included into the shooting from hills rules.

b) 1 rank on the flat and 2 ranks on the hill shoot. - This is from the interpretation that any 2 ranks on a hill can shoot AND the front rank can always shoot.

Th

Sandals
06-10-2006, 09:27
b) 1 rank on the flat and 2 ranks on the hill shoot. - This is from the interpretation that any 2 ranks on a hill can shoot AND the front rank can always shoot.

Th

i'm not really sure how you get this interpretation from the phrase "one additional rank." it seems pretty clear to me!
additional means 'in addition', or 'extra.' one means 'one.' rank means 'rank.'
to me, this says that, given that the front rank always can shoot as you say, that 'one' 'rank' 'in addition' may also shoot.

pretty clear!

DeathlessDraich
06-10-2006, 09:50
It's not my interpretation per se but just another way some players might interpret.
In the 6th, the rules example given was " bowmen can shoot with 2 ranks". Using LOS rules in addition, the DE player I played against, interpreted this as any 2 ranks - 2nd and 1st, 3rd and 1st etc. In addition the front rank on the flat has LOS and could therefore shoot.
A weak argument possibly but I could not support any challenges with sufficient rules backing.

It could be said that the rules state 'units' on a hill and not 'ranks' on a hill but this is easily countered by the fact that the unit is 'partially' on the hill only and the rules do not explicitly cover this eventuality and has to be interpreted.

In the 7th, the rules example given does state "1st 2 ranks" and this gives more creedence to interpretation (a) but again not totally decisive as it is only an example.

In the example in the first post it would be difficult to argue that the 2nd rank of green archers did not have an unobstructed LOS.
For a unit completely on a hill, the rank behind the first has LOS 'through' the obstructiveness of the first rank.
The 2nd rank's LOS has the same 'obstruction' as the 3rd rank in the example above.
Are they to be denied LOS even though circumstances are virtually identical?

I still think the rules must clearly identify which ranks can shoot for a unit partially on a hill.

Morghat
06-10-2006, 11:04
if rule says that one extra rank can shoot on the hill and this mean unit can have maximum 2 ranks shooting, because usually only front rank can shoot 1(first rank)+1(extra rank)=2 , not 3 or 4 or... :D
like example in first post, this is still ONE unit and in one unit can have max 2 ranks shooting on the hill
so there is no possibility you can have 3 ranks shooting in one unit
that's how i understand this rule

Rioghan Murchadha
06-10-2006, 12:10
What people are failing to notice is the stupidity of the current system.

If I shoot at a giant, I could be 10 ranks deep, and all ranks can still fire..

If my guys on a hill look something like this
............T
..........T
........T
......T
(This is a cut away side view =)

Even though they can all see what they're shooting at (the reason given for all ranks being able to fire at large targets), they still can only fire in 2 ranks.

This is dumb(tm)

NakedFisherman
06-10-2006, 12:54
so there is no possibility you can have 3 ranks shooting in one unit
that's how i understand this rule

Units on a hill can fire with one additional rank.

The first rank can shoot because they have line of sight.

The second can shoot because they can see over those in front of them and hence have line of sight.

The third cannot see over those in front of them, but they are on a hill and so can fire with one additional rank.

That's a total of three ranks shooting.

DeathlessDraich
06-10-2006, 13:08
usually only front rank can shoot 1(first rank)+1(extra rank)=2 , not 3 or 4 or... :D


'Usually' the front rank can shoot because it conforms to the base requirements of shooting - LOS and range.
In this case, can you say with absolute certainty that the 2nd rank of Ts (the first rank of greens) does not have LOS?
From the LOS rules they certainly do have LOS and can therefore shoot.
This, I feel is the source of the uncertainty.
An interpretation that the 2nd rank can shoot because it fulfills the base requirements of shooting namely LOS, and NOT because it is on the hill, cannot be dismissed easily.

Players who feel they can shoot in 3 ranks, for the scenario above, have got an arguably valid point using the arguments above.
The 'Shooting from hills' rules must clearly state it overrides other shooting rules and must also encompass units partially on a hill to overcome the uncertainty.

ZomboCom
06-10-2006, 13:17
Units on a hill can fire with one additional rank.

The first rank can shoot because they have line of sight.

The second can shoot because they can see over those in front of them and hence have line of sight.

The third cannot see over those in front of them, but they are on a hill and so can fire with one additional rank.

That's a total of three ranks shooting.

No. The additional rank IS the second rank. Normally only one rank can fire. With an additional rank that's two.

The second rank having LOS has nothing to do with it.

Morghat
06-10-2006, 13:36
hmm i think allso that there is nothing to do with LOS on second rank, rule say that one additional rank can shoot if unit is on hill, rule does not say anything about LOS. Rule count this one unit and if there no special rule then unit can shoot only with his first rank
that's my 2cents :)

NakedFisherman
06-10-2006, 15:36
Normally only one rank can fire.

That rule is not in my rulebook.

Sandals
06-10-2006, 18:13
i give up.

*unsubscribes*

argue all you want, i'm going home...

Crazy Harborc
07-10-2006, 02:10
Funny thing, around here and that includes at the company store......On flat lands ONE rank of shooters can see to shoot, back ranks are blocked from seeing to shoot by the front rank. If you have a unit of shooters on a hill shooting down ONE addition rank can shoot. If you are shooting up at a large target or up into a hill ONE addition rank can fire. It IS mentioned on page 26.