PDA

View Full Version : tactics for a tzeentch themed chaos army in 7th edition



Seelenhaendler
06-10-2006, 17:19
With the release of the limited editon Tzeentch Champion (at least here in Germany) I thought about resurrecting my chaos army.

But how do you build a competitive and fun but also balanced tzeentch themed army?

The tzeentch champions might be powerful heroes but since they will only be able to cast spells or fight most of the time, you donít get that much mileage for your points.
The demons are a mixed bag, while the Screamers are usefull in a lot of ways, the Horrors are one of the less effective demon units in the game (and demon units outside of a demon horde are not that spectacular to begin with).
Units with the mark of tzeentch provide you with an additional power dice but also lose the mark of chaos undivided, making the unit much more vulnerable to psychology.

So which units do you include and how do you use them in battle? How many Horrors? Any Flamers? Which tzeentch specific magic Items?
Oh btw, Iím not a big fan of the ĎChariot Army of Doomí and the like.

My selection for 1500 Ė 2000 points:
2 exalted champions on disc (here fits the limited edition model in)
1 exalted champion in a chariot (maybe as BSB)
3 screamers
12 horrors
5-6 chosen knights MoT with War Banner/ Blasted Standard/ Banner of Wrath
1-2 Firewyrm of Tzeentch
+ ???

What units would complement this army?


Ok, I know these are a lot of questions and not everbody might have to say something to all of the topics. So to make it easier to respond and give this thread more focus, letís just discuss tactics for a tzeentch themed chaos army in 7th edition!

Zonq
06-10-2006, 19:01
Hi,

I would say that what is missign to this army is some static CR. Unless you're planning to get a fast army, I would add 1 or 2 unit(s) of marauders. This would also make your army a little bigger than only 30 or so models.

I don't play Tzeench personnaly but I think that a balanced list should have a bit of CR to hold charges and prepare for counter-charges.

Hope this helps,

ZOnq

Voltaire
06-10-2006, 19:54
The way of doing a Tzeentch army is to try and max out on the units with the Mark, while making your Daemons into MSU units.

The army I would use is as folllows;

Level 4 Lord on foot
Level 2 Lord on Disk
BSB with Banner of Wrath w/ Yellow fire banner
Exalted Champion of Tzeentch w/ Beserker Sword in Chariot

19 Warriors of Tzeentch
20 Warriors of Tzeentch

10 Horrors
10 Horrors

5 Screamers

Chariot
Chariot

24 Marauders

6 Chosen Knights of Tzeentch with the Banner of Wrath

Nazreg Moonsinger
06-10-2006, 20:51
Mine would be about the most boring concept possible, but:

Disc lord, Disc exa, 2 exas in chariots, 3 chariots, both flying daemons and whatever you think will fit in on the other points. I run unit of undivided chosens, only 2 chariots because I haven't painted the last one.

Hard enough to massacre most armies in 4 rounds, on the other hand. Not for fun games, if you don't live in Finland. ;)

lokigod
07-10-2006, 07:25
I would probaly do something like this.....

1 champ on disc lvl 4
1 champ on steed too cheap for the nice armour save it gives ya(put with knights) lvl 2
1 champ on foot(put with warriors) lvl 2
2 x 20 mauraders or beast herd 7/13
12 to 14 warriors depends if ya want 7 or 6 wide
11 to 13 warriors champ go's hear
2 chairots ( 15 points for extra powerdice is a steal + they hit hard)
4 or 5 man unit of knights non chosen with champ will do damage
screamers
and anything else ya think ya want
This give ya alot of power dice to cast
anyway thats my two cents

Seelenhaendler
07-10-2006, 09:34
Thanks for the input so far.


Hi,

I would say that what is missign to this army is some static CR. Unless you're planning to get a fast army, I would add 1 or 2 unit(s) of marauders. This would also make your army a little bigger than only 30 or so models.

I don't play Tzeench personnaly but I think that a balanced list should have a bit of CR to hold charges and prepare for counter-charges.

Hope this helps,

ZOnq


Yeah, I thought about that too, some static CR is always nice to have and it adds some bulk to an otherwise small army. But the reason I didn't include a block of infantry in my first pickings, was because I was not sure about the direction of the army, i.e. a steady advance with infantry blocks or a faster aproach with only mobile elements. Since I like to include some horrors, I'm already going to end up with blocks of slow infantry, so I might as well go with an infantry heavy army which is supported by some fast elements to take out key units, marchblock and disrupt the enemy.

The best way to get static CR in a chaos army is to take marauders. So how many and how do you equip them?
For the size of the unit, I think most players go for 25 models in 7th edition. If you don't expect to suffer many (or any) casualties before you get in combat you could drop some models.
If all you want is CR the basic marauder seems to be the sufficient but I prefer the LA and shild combo. This makes them more expensive but also more resilient and ideally denies your opponents some CR.
Marauders with flails or gws imo are best used in cheap small units to countercharge, set up traps or as a sacrifice.



The way of doing a Tzeentch army is to try and max out on the units with the Mark, while making your Daemons into MSU units.

The army I would use is as folllows;

Level 4 Lord on foot
Level 2 Lord on Disk
BSB with Banner of Wrath w/ Yellow fire banner
Exalted Champion of Tzeentch w/ Beserker Sword in Chariot

19 Warriors of Tzeentch
20 Warriors of Tzeentch

10 Horrors
10 Horrors

5 Screamers

Chariot
Chariot

24 Marauders

6 Chosen Knights of Tzeentch with the Banner of Wrath


Honestly I'm not a fan of big blocks of chaos warriors because usually your opponent just avoids them. But if I'm going for an infantry based army I might give them a try.

Lets talk a bit about horrors and their unit size.
While the minimum of 10 might be tempting, I think 12 is the better size.
Cons:
- more expensive
Pros:
- d6 hits become S3 (major pro)
- powerlevel increases to 6 (minor pro)
- better combat abilities vs light units (higher US and retain ranks longer, minor pro)
If you are going to use the 24 inch spell most of the time then 12 models are the best pick, although the points might be better spent elsewhere. Since the true power lies within the 12 inch spell which is independent of US, 10 horrors are the better pick if you can use this spell most of the time.
The fixed powerlevel allows your opponent to budget his dispel dice more effective and if you only threaten him with d6 S2 hits he will likely not even consider spending any dispel dice. Even if your opponent is not willing to use dispel dice for the d6 S3 hits, they might actually kill something.
Considering the better spelllevel and combat abilities, I think all in all 12 horrors are the better deal.

Lets take a look at the screamers now:
I manly use them to marchblock, to kill wizards (even in units) and to tie up warmachines. Therefore 3 are usually enough. The only benefit of a bigger unit is (besides that it can take more casualties) the higher US which is useful if you outnumber your opponent (who is not immune to fear that is). Especially vs warmachines and chariots which usually have a US of 4 or less so that it is possible to panic them on the charge. But for this role I prefer furries because you get an higher US for less points.

Lets get back to the rest of the army.
An infantry force really benefits from a bsb, so at 2000 points it seems to be a good choice. A big unit of marauders in the middle of your battleline is perhaps the best place to field him.
Since I'm planing a themed army it is appropriate to use the tzeentch specific banner, even if the warbanner is usually the better choice.
The tzeentch banner makes a unit much more resilient, so it seem to be a good choice for the bsb with the marauders or for a unit of (chosen) chaos knights. With a lot of scary units on the table I don't expect the marauders to be targeted much so the banner is going to be useless for a big part of the battle. If I take it for the knights it might be of more use since they are likely targeted from turn one and might even force my opponent to consider to dispell it, thereby weakening his magic defence.
Since the marauder unit takes on a more defensive role, the banner of wrath appears to be the better pick for them.
With 7th edition in mind I think the best way to use the bsb will be to mount your bsb and put him where he is needed, since you can now hide even in infantry units.

How about the Firewyrm, can anybody share his experience with this unit?

Another topic which I'm thinking about is how many characters to take in a 2000 point list. At the moment I think 3 should be ok, so you have enough points left to field some troops. Also how many power dice will be enough?

DirtJumper
08-10-2006, 00:48
Always run Screamers in units of 5+. It is almost vital now in 7th with the crossfire rules. Firewyrms are absolutetly amazing anti-infantry units, being able to lock most infantry blocks in the game in place for at least 2 or 3 turns, with their only downfall being their unreliable movement. (but the Wyrms have the added advantage od being able to use their breath weapon if they don't move far anough to charge)

Voltaire
08-10-2006, 10:00
If created correctly, a Tzeentch magic phase becomes more relentless than that of the Tomb Kings. I will be testing this against some opponents following payday.

fubukii
08-10-2006, 18:58
You could be that guy and have a tzeetch lord on dragon with golden eye and Staff of change.

der_lex
08-10-2006, 20:45
Tzeentch is IMO best played defensively. Hang back, pelt your opponent with magic and ranged attacks, and deal with what's left of them once they reach you with your powerful close combat troops. Don't do the 'usual chaos thing' and charge forward.

Units that are mainstays in my tzeentch armies:

- Chaos lord on disc with halberd, shield, Golden eye and staff of change. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Having a mobile artillery platform that can help out in charges and if need be in warmachine disposal is a crucial in an otherwise relatively static army.

- Exalted champ in chariot with berserker sword. Already a lethal combination, but throw in tzeentch spells like yellow fire (that 5+ save can save your ass against STR7 hits) or better yet orange fire (woe the foe that flanks you when you're in combat, because you'll make almost every save and strike and re-roll an obscene amount of hits)

- Battle standard bearer. Tzeentch needs the psychology assist, and if you roll yellow fire he provides a nice save for your troops. (I tend to put him in a CW block)

- The Hellcannon. yes, the 'hurt all mages in play' misfire is risky, but I've never rolled it. What you do get is another excellent ranged unit that will force the enemy to come to you, since they don't want to be butchered by its blasts when they hang back. Only feasible in 2500+ point armies due to the cost, though.

- Screamers. I tend to take 5, but that's because my main opponent plays Dwarves, and 3 screamers just don't cut it against dwarven War machine crew/anvil protectors.



What infantry and cav I take varies strongly per battle, but I do make sure to have at least 2 more Marks of Tzeentch on units other than the Chariot.


I tend to avoid horrors/flamers because it's a decent support unit, but way too expensive for what it does in small point games. In higher point games my points are better spent on a Hellcannon. Maybe in 4k+ i'd consider taking one or two units. Right now I only use the horror models wehn indigo fire makes some kills.


Just my 2c...

Shaitan
09-10-2006, 10:08
Always run Screamers in units of 5+. It is almost vital now in 7th with the crossfire rules.

Doesn't a unit of flyers always have US 1?
That makes the crossfire rule not work, since US 5+ is needed.

BTT: Hanging back is indeed the preferred tactic with Tzeentch. You want to blast the ***** out of your enemy with magic missiles and finish him when he finally reaches you with what is left of his army.

I don't really like the Daemonic units (especially not in a Daemonic Legion list) but for the fluff I would include at least one unit Horrors of about 12-15 models. Maybe include a unit Screamers but my preference goes out to the Furies if you want flyers.

I would take 2 big blocks of Marauders (about 20 models), a unit Knights, one or two chariots and fill the rest up with characters.

When I play Tzeentch I usually take about 10 PD (in a 2k game). I think more is not very fun to play against and may be considered a bit cheesy :cheese:

TzarNikolai
09-10-2006, 16:11
Doesn't a unit of flyers always have US 1?
That makes the crossfire rule not work, since US 5+ is needed.
no, they're unit strength 1 each. so 5 screamers are unit strength 5.
funny how overnight all screamer units are going to go up to 5+ :D

the way i see 7th ed changes we've got the staff of change. while it didn't actually get any better the new miscast table is really really scary, making it an amazing buy. especially if now other players are going to go caster light, so less dispel dice to plow through.

dogs seem like a pretty good buy if you can angle them in such a way as to leave a charging unit in front of something heavy you were screening (no redirect anymore)

however our infantry i think has gotten a bit of a hard deal. chaos warriors are prohibitively expensive now they have to be 5 wide, and in a tzeentch army lets not even discuss chosen on foot.

i was thinking something along the lines of:

-lord, MoT, daemon steed, golden eye, staff, halberd, shield (although now that you mention it i could put him on a disc of tzeentch instead, i just shudder to think what could happen to him as he is around 500 points and on his own doesn't get a look out sir and is targetted as a large target.

-aspiring champ, scroll, great weapon, Mot

-wargor, MoT, chaos armour, staff of darkoth

-5 chosen knights, MoT command

-24 marauders, command

-chariot, Mot

-2 5 man horseman units w/musician and flails

-2 5 man hound units

-5 screamers

-beast herd w/ 7 gor, 12 ungor.

any comments/suggestions? i might have broken a rule somewhere *shrug* so just say.

der_lex
09-10-2006, 17:51
Doesn't a unit of flyers always have US 1?
That makes the crossfire rule not work, since US 5+ is needed.

BTT: Hanging back is indeed the preferred tactic with Tzeentch. You want to blast the ***** out of your enemy with magic missiles and finish him when he finally reaches you with what is left of his army.

I don't really like the Daemonic units (especially not in a Daemonic Legion list) but for the fluff I would include at least one unit Horrors of about 12-15 models. Maybe include a unit Screamers but my preference goes out to the Furies if you want flyers.

I would take 2 big blocks of Marauders (about 20 models), a unit Knights, one or two chariots and fill the rest up with characters.

When I play Tzeentch I usually take about 10 PD (in a 2k game). I think more is not very fun to play against and may be considered a bit cheesy :cheese:

12 PD is what we consider 'fair' for a 2K Tzeentch army over here. My main 2500 point army has 15. I don't really see why you'd prefer Furies over Screamers, though. yes, furies are cheaper, but they die a lot faster than the tougher screamers, and don't have the sheer awesomeness that is the Screamer Slashing attack. Tearing an enemy mage or Skaven weapon team apart by simply flying over them can be very effective (although with the new targeting rules most people will now put the wizards in units, unfortunately).

Tzarnikolai, your list seems decent enough. I can't really comment any more on it, since I don't use any beasts at all (well, aside from the occasional troll or giant) and have no idea about how well they would work in a Tzeentch force.

Shaitan
10-10-2006, 07:58
no, they're unit strength 1 each. so 5 screamers are unit strength 5.

Is this changed in 7th edition?
I don't have the rulebook by hand now but I believe in 6th edition a unit of flyers had US 1.

Yasmin
10-10-2006, 08:03
Is this changed in 7th edition?
I don't have the rulebook by hand now but I believe in 6th edition a unit of flyers had US 1.

No.
Every Screamer has US 1.
5 Screamers is US 5.
That's all.

Benji
11-10-2006, 07:11
Assistance! my brother is putting together a Tzeentch Mortals army starting at 1k and then more, I also want to start a new army but not one overly vulnerable to his. Any advice?

Ps: no-one suggest Bretonnians, I'm just not interested in painting them.

Unclejo
11-10-2006, 17:34
i just shudder to think what could happen to him as he is around 500 points and on his own doesn't get a look out sir and is targetted as a large target.

Really? Hordes of Chaos, page 38, says this:


For line of sight purposes only, a character on a Disc of Tzeentch counts as a large target.

Ive been reading that as if the disc rider is the only one that utilises this LOS bonus, not the opponent. If my interpretation is incorrect, the new targetting rules really make a disc rider a bit too fragile. Thoughts?

Shaitan
12-10-2006, 08:31
For line of sight purposes only, a character on a Disc of Tzeentch counts as a large target.

I think both the rider and the opponent use LOS to see each other.
It would be a bit odd if I could see you because I stick out above the rest... but you couldn't see me.

Indeed, this makes the disc rider way more fragile!

kyussinchains
12-10-2006, 16:37
basically, he counts as a large target, but there's no +1 to hit him.

I think in all other respects he counts, so yeah he's pretty fragile

Unclejo
12-10-2006, 17:25
Indeed, this makes the disc rider way more fragile!

If my grasp of the rules holds true, under 6th as long as the Disc Rider was within 6" of an applicable unit, he couldnt be targetted so the Disc was actually rather beneficial. Now, not only can everything see him behind your troops, but they can shoot him with more more models than normal.

Which, as we seem to be agreeing, makes Disc Riders incredibly fragile. Thats surely not WAI?

Edit: In the interests of not steering this thread OT, I will start another covering Disc Riders.