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Kroxhandler
06-10-2006, 21:58
Just thought I'd try a different army for once, I usually end up facing High Elves with my Lizardmen, always good to know your enemy;) This list will most likely be slightly tooled against a infantry heavy pure Orc list one of my friends likes to field. We'll here goes:

1 Prince on Great Eagle(Lance, Bow of the Seafarer, Loremaster) : a mobile bolt thrower and magic generator. I'm thinking of using him to draw out any savage orc Boar Boyz and possibly kill off war machines. The bow should hit on 3+ or better most times, probably piercing a couple of orcs each turn.

1 Lvl.2 Mage( Seer, Silver Wand, Channeller) - Takes High Magic with Fortune is Fickle, Fury of Khaine and Flames of the Phoenix. The mover and shaker of the bunch, torch 'em and keep 'em burning!

1 Lvl.2 Mage( Jewel of the Dusk, Ring of Fury) - Secondary flamethrower, possibly more of a support unit for the rest of the army. Lore of Beasts might be nice to take as the standard spell (as well as a couple of others) is quite handy.

2x10 Archers. Always handy, might not decide the battle but can probably tear apart a Snottling Pump Wagon and a couple of Orc boyz.

5 First Silver Helms(Heavy Armour, Shields, Banner of Ellyrion, Full Command) - A sneaky kind of cavalry unit, a hammer to be used against the enemy's flanks.

5 Silver Helms(Heavy Armour, Shields, Full Command) - Standard cavalry, about the same role but more useful in the center of the army while the first unit circles around.

1 Tiranoc Chariot. Wicked, just wicked.

5 Shadow Warriors. March blocking and warmachine hunting. Might be used as a sacrifical unit against frenzied troops or tempt other units to stay out of the main battle.

5 Ellyrian Reavers - Bait unit. Might otherwise be useful against war machines.

20 Swordmasters(Full Command with Guardian Pheonix item on champion and Banner of Sorcery) - The main RnF-unit. Fast and hardhitting if not cheap. Will most likely be heavily depending on their front line cutting down the number of attacks return, hopefully never used without a supporting unit of cavalry or chariot.

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - Well, it's probably worth it. Any Giants showing its ugly face will have a hard time dodging them and large units of Orcs will take a hurting from single shots.

Exactly 2000 pts with 9-11 Power dice and 6 Dispel dice, making the army quite heavy on magic.

Tactics will most likely be to use the scouts to take out rocklobbers, try to tear the mob of enemy units apart with bait and stall for as long as possible. Magic and shooting should cut down the more dangerous units to a more acceptable size before storming in with the cavalry.

Anyone seen a similar list in action and feels like sharing the experience please do so. Any suggestions will be apprciated and considered.

Prince Sairion
06-10-2006, 23:59
Don't try and shoot an orc army. Just don't. 20 archers are a waste of points against loads of t4 guys, and elves would never waste an arrow on a goblin.

Your Prince will get killed. Orcs always have bolt throwers and guess what they'll target?

I would take swordmasters as a support unit but orcs now get the charge thanks to the Waaaaaaaagh special rule giving them plusses to their animosity roll.

Best think you can do against orcs is dominate movement and magic. This means lots of small (cavalry) units that can smash his flanking wolf/spider riders and enough anti-magic to render his mages obsolete.

Run, hide and pick your fights.

Heres a vague list of what I would take:

Prince on steed, 2 mages as you have, 2 bolt throwers (giant), 2 eagles (re-directing), bigger unit of shadow warriors, 4 cavalry units (1 dp with cmd, 2helms without command and 1 reavers), 2 chariots and a unit of spearmen for ranks.

Orcs are on you in turn 3 nowadays, but not if you aren't in their way.

Kroxhandler
07-10-2006, 02:06
Don't try and shoot an orc army. Just don't. 20 archers are a waste of points against loads of t4 guys, and elves would never waste an arrow on a goblin.

Your Prince will get killed. Orcs always have bolt throwers and guess what they'll target?

I would take swordmasters as a support unit but orcs now get the charge thanks to the Waaaaaaaagh special rule giving them plusses to their animosity roll.

Best think you can do against orcs is dominate movement and magic. This means lots of small (cavalry) units that can smash his flanking wolf/spider riders and enough anti-magic to render his mages obsolete.

Run, hide and pick your fights.

Heres a vague list of what I would take:

Prince on steed, 2 mages as you have, 2 bolt throwers (giant), 2 eagles (re-directing), bigger unit of shadow warriors, 4 cavalry units (1 dp with cmd, 2helms without command and 1 reavers), 2 chariots and a unit of spearmen for ranks.

Orcs are on you in turn 3 nowadays, but not if you aren't in their way.

Ok, we'll be sticking to 6th edition rules, I guess the Whaagh(?) rule is new. Won't be any spider riders or any goblins at all for that matter, that's the way my opponent wants his orcs. All orky and no small ones...:)
I happen to have some more inside news, or rather observations made from previous battles, about what my opponent usually fields: 1 Giant, 1 Pump Wagon, 1-2 Boar Chariots, 1+ Orc Boyz, 1-2 Savage Orc Boar Boyz, 1 Orc Shaman and 1-2 Rocklobbers. Apart from that I expect to see some Black Orcs, maybe a Black Orc hero and some Snottling Swarms. After that it's probably lots and lots of Orc Boyz.

The prince is indeed pretty unshielded, neither he or his mount has any armour, making close combat pretty sucicidal. I'm tempted to throw out the Loremaster honour and put some armour on him but I'm not sure what to get, any suggestions? I'd very much like to keep the flying + bolt thrower action, if the prince gets to be the general then I've got a very handy and mobile source of leadership.

Then again I could just use a Commander and slap the Blessed Tome(+1 Ld) on another character close by...

Also tempted to use Spearmen as they seems like the more logical central RnF unit. I don't think they would be more effective at striking back, even if they get more attacks they are considerably weaker. Say 4 ranks of 5 Spearmen lined up against WS3 T4 Orcs, that's about 15 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 5+. That's 3 1/3 wounds on average with full armour saves. 20 Swordmasters hit on 3+ as well but wounds on 3+, making it a 2 2/9 wounds with a hefty -2 armour save. With light armour and a shield(or just heavy armour) the Spearmen will do just about the same damage as the Swordmasters....what'ya know...heh:eyebrows:

I'll be right back with an updated list based on this discovery...

Tobias
07-10-2006, 11:02
You've only got 5 pd and no scrolls at all, change that. And Loremaster isn't good on prince now he'll die to fast

Erestor
07-10-2006, 11:27
I'm guessing Tobias means dispel dice.

I only have two questions, firstly, why give the Prince a Lance if you don't intend to get him into combat, and secondly, why bother with High Elves at all, they are grossly over-priced and non-effective.

If you persist, drop loremaster from the Prince, give him the Ring of Fury, don't choose fury of Khaine and Flames on the same mage, if you get Fames off, he won't be able to use Fury will he? Consider curse of arrow attraction, especially if you plan to shoot sinlge shots, being able to re-roll when you have about 500 points, or 25% of your army in shooting is worth much more than hoping to get a spell through. Cast it first, if it works he'll hold dice for the big ones.

If you just want the eagle guy to fly around and shoot stuff, go for a Commander, at LD 9 you'll be less tempted to hold him in you battle line, his BS is the same as a Prince get him the Reaver Bow. It's cheaper and I think just as good. With the remaining points get an enchanted shield and get him some heavy armour. With a great weapon he could charge and kill rock lobbers before they kill him.

Give the Blessed Tome to a unit champion, then they all have the same Ld irrespective of who the general is.

Kroxhandler
07-10-2006, 13:13
I'm guessing Tobias means dispel dice.

I only have two questions, firstly, why give the Prince a Lance if you don't intend to get him into combat, and secondly, why bother with High Elves at all, they are grossly over-priced and non-effective.

If you persist, drop loremaster from the Prince, give him the Ring of Fury, don't choose fury of Khaine and Flames on the same mage, if you get Fames off, he won't be able to use Fury will he? Consider curse of arrow attraction, especially if you plan to shoot sinlge shots, being able to re-roll when you have about 500 points, or 25% of your army in shooting is worth much more than hoping to get a spell through. Cast it first, if it works he'll hold dice for the big ones.

If you just want the eagle guy to fly around and shoot stuff, go for a Commander, at LD 9 you'll be less tempted to hold him in you battle line, his BS is the same as a Prince get him the Reaver Bow. It's cheaper and I think just as good. With the remaining points get an enchanted shield and get him some heavy armour. With a great weapon he could charge and kill rock lobbers before they kill him.

Give the Blessed Tome to a unit champion, then they all have the same Ld irrespective of who the general is.

Well, first question: Yup, you've got a point. Dropping the lance.;) Second question: Flavour, everyone has their own. Armies are only uneffective if used incorrectly (though there are armies easier to use than others).
Having Fury and Flames on the same mage works just great, who says you have to cast the RIP spell first? Cast Fury and then Flames and it's all good. Curse of Arrow Attraction might be worth it, if I take High Magic on both mages and hope to get either Fury or Arrow on the second one. If he gets any of them the first(with Seer) can just fill in the blanks.

A commander with Reaver Bow(3xS5 shots instead of 1 S6 rank-penetrating) will be cheaper, it does sound quite nice. Very resonably priced compared to the Seafarer Prince. Thanks for the tip.;)

Here's an updated list, featuring some more conventional elements:

1 Commander( Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Heavy Armour, Steed with Ithilmar barding)
1 Mage( Seer, Silver Wand, Channeller)
1 Mage( Jewel of the Dusk, Ring of Fury)
20 Spearelves(full command)
20 Spearelves(full command)
5 First Silver Helms(Banner of Ellyrion, full armour, full command)
5 Silver Helms( full armour, full command)
1 Tiranoc chariot
5 Shadow Warriors
5 Ellyrian Reavers
10 Swordmasters(Full command, Banner of Sorcery, Blessed tome)
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

Exactly 2000 pts, 2 fully ranked units this time and less Swordmasters. The commander has a great save, good as a sharpshooter and decent in hth. Stays with or around the Silver Helms for protection.

Should be 8-10 power dice and 5 dispel dice, with Fortune is fickle that should be enough to counter 1-2 orc shamans. (6th edition rules).

Prince Sairion
07-10-2006, 20:20
Looks better, got more to add though ;)

If your opponent takes 1/2 units of savage orcs (frenzied) then you really - and I mean really - need eagles. Watch them follow them into a wood, it's great trust me.

If the swordmasters are a flanking unit they don't need a full command, saving you points, as the spearmen have the cmd.

Whatever you do if you take this list though, DO NOT take the charge with the spearmen. Sure three ranks is good to attack with, but after the s4 choppa attacks and any characters from the orc side have hit you there will be far fewer elves to hit back.

Another reason for taking eagles, divert units going right down the centre of the field allowing a flank charge.

High Elves - Frail, nimble, 'grossly over-priced', but they are a great challenge to play with and get right.

Morskul
07-10-2006, 22:00
Yes, I would agree you definately need eagles, especially against Orcs. You could probably do without the bow on the commander, as it really won't make that much of a difference, but that may juust be me, as I have no firepower other than bolt throwers in my army.

I also wouldn't give the Helms any command, other than obviously the standard bearer for the magic banner. I'd give the Spearmen just a standard bearer and, as Sairion said, no command for the swordmasters.

Erestor
08-10-2006, 00:12
Well, first question: Yup, you've got a point. Dropping the lance.;) Second question: Flavour, everyone has their own. Armies are only uneffective if used incorrectly (though there are armies easier to use than others).
Having Fury and Flames on the same mage works just great, who says you have to cast the RIP spell first? Cast Fury and then Flames and it's all good.



And in turn two, he can stand around cheering his mates?

Of course, when you don't rolll the score you need for Flames, he can do something useful, so I guess it's your call.

I'm not convinces you "need" eagles. Reavers and shadow warriors will do the same thing, and you get to rally and move with reavers, (they should have a muso, LD9 to rally...;) )

I disagree about the command. Silver helms are royal knights, they should have a full command for flavour, and for effectiveness.

Kroxhandler
08-10-2006, 04:43
Well, I appreciate the call for flavour, I think it is an element of the game that is often overlooked. I've never seen anyone going for flavour in a tournament but for us 'simple folks' looking for an enjoyable game rather than crushing our enemy at all costs I strongly advice some additional background for each army. A little tidbit of history for each character, preferably using the same character throughout several different armies, possibly keeping a chronicle about the games, trying to keep the army close to the background material. It's fluffy and quite fun once you've gotten into the habit, though it might lose you a game once in a while. It's all part of the show. Then again some might feel that the sweetness of victory is their reason for playing, that's good too, everyone grab what they like and play on.

I'd say Dragon Knights should never be fielded without full command as a rule of thumb, I'm not entirely convinced about Silver Helms though. Ellyrian Reavers, Shadow Warriors and Swordmasters I can support being without all the fuss, they each have specific duties on Ulthuan that doesn't necessary require the same amount of ceremony on the battlefield. I thinkg Morskul and Prince Sairion has a point there, some points may be shaven of the flanking Swordmasters. Considering the horrible things Orc characters can do to Spearmen champions (Overkill anyone?) I think limiting them to just a standard each might be appropriate, maybe with musicians thrown in for good measure. Allowing Orcs to charge you when you've got a 2" advantage is probably just stupid, elves should be able to get the charge if the player hasn't misjudged the distance. In my experience Orcs really need that +1S and as many kills as possible from their front rank to ensure victory.

The Commander will probably stay just the way he is, I think he will provide a nice addition to the battery of Bolt Throwers, able to take care of smaller problems while they focus on the large units. Finishing off a wounded Giant or shooting up a Snottling Pump Wagon doesn't require all the firepower of a Bolt Thrower, with the mobility of an elven steed the Commander could also function as a sniper should any orc characters be foolish enough to step outside of the large Orc units.

Great Eagles might be quite useful, I even have the rare slot available at the moment. But as Erestor points out the role is already filled by the Shadow Warriors and Ellyrian Reavers. Not so sure about the Eagles chances at taking on any warmachine crews, might be better used just as charge directors instead.

I'll admit that the mage casting the Fury and Flames might have to stand back for a while if the enemy doesn't dispel the Flames in his/her round once it is successfully cast. Then again the flames will have struck every model in the target unit with one S4 and one S5 hit by that time, if it is still standing and still the best target a dose of S6 hits might just be worth it. If not then it's just a matter of casting the spell on a more deserving target, comforted by the amount of hurt but on the first target :evilgrin:

Here's the latest list spawned by me:
1 Commander( Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Heavy Armour, Steed with Ithilmar barding)
1 Mage( Seer, Silver Wand, Elven Steed with Ithilmar Barding)
1 Mage( Jewel of the Dusk, Ring of Fury,Elven Steed with Ithilmar Barding)
20 Spearelves(Standard)
20 Spearelves(Standard)
5 First Silver Helms(Banner of Ellyrion, full armour, full command)
5 Silver Helms(full armour, full command)
1 Tiranoc chariot
5 Shadow Warriors
5 Ellyrian Reavers
10 Swordmasters(Banner of Sorcery)
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
1 Great Eagle

1995 pts this time, making the mages a bit more agile and adding a great eagle for additional support.

truthsayer
08-10-2006, 12:56
Here's the latest list spawned by me:
1 Commander( Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Heavy Armour, Steed with Ithilmar barding)
1 Mage( Seer, Silver Wand, Elven Steed with Ithilmar Barding)
1 Mage( Jewel of the Dusk, Ring of Fury,Elven Steed with Ithilmar Barding)
20 Spearelves(Standard)
20 Spearelves(Standard)
5 First Silver Helms(Banner of Ellyrion, full armour, full command)
5 Silver Helms(full armour, full command)
1 Tiranoc chariot
5 Shadow Warriors
5 Ellyrian Reavers
10 Swordmasters(Banner of Sorcery)
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
1 Great Eagle

1995 pts this time, making the mages a bit more agile and adding a great eagle for additional support.

I like this list, plenty of small units go down really well in an elven list. A couple of anvils, some small hammer units, plenty of harrassers and some things to whittle down the enemy's numbers. I play against Prince Sairion and would hate to see him with this list ;). As we play 2250 as standard he could put a few more bits in this list too. He'll still lose to my new and improved Dark Elves though.

enyoss
08-10-2006, 13:16
With your original list did you ever try out the big Swordmaster unit. I use it as a mainstay quite often and find they are quite effective. With a tough prince in there they can be devastating.

Regarding the mages, I think it's probably a better idea to have Fortune is Fickle on the mage without your destructive spells. That way you can always try and cast that first. Then while ever the mage manages to maintain it your destructive guy will have a massive bonus to casting as most dipells will autofail. Even if your opponent goes all out to get rid of it it still means less dispell dice elsewhere.

cheers,

enyoss

Tobias
08-10-2006, 14:03
1 Commander( Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Heavy Armour, Steed with Ithilmar barding)

- reaver bow anda stead? doesn't mix well, change that

1 Mage( Seer, Silver Wand, Elven Steed with Ithilmar Barding)
1 Mage( Jewel of the Dusk, Ring of Fury,Elven Steed with Ithilmar Barding)

- you'veonly got 4dd and no scrolls ... change that

20 Spearelves(Standard)
20 Spearelves(Standard)
5 First Silver Helms(Banner of Ellyrion, full armour, full command)
5 Silver Helms(full armour, full command)

- sollid

1 Tiranoc chariot
5 Shadow Warriors
5 Ellyrian Reavers
10 Swordmasters(Banner of Sorcery)

- drop reaver for 2nd chariot and more swordmasters

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
1 Great Eagle

- is good

Kroxhandler
08-10-2006, 17:32
Well, thanks for the reply Tobias.
How come you feel that reaver bow and steed doesn't work well together?
As for the mages I feel that 4 dice with a +1 dispel mod works well for me, my opponent has yet to show any signs of enjoying massive Orc magic. Should be enough to counter 1-2 Shamans, especially if Fortune is Fickle makes one of them useless and some power dice has to be expended on removing Flames of the Phoenix on a suffering orc unit. Even if I luck out and do not get the spells I want(highly unprobable as I've got Seer on one mage) and fail to cast Flames of the Phoenix I feel confident I can manage.

Swapping the Ellyrian Reaver for another chariot does make some sense, since they don't get bows(the get to pay through the nose for them!) they are quite expensive for their role. Cheaper just to get another Great Eagle. Though more Swordmasters doesn't make much sense to me, they aren'y tooled up to be a anvil unit, 2 ranks of 5 is useful for hammer duty but not much else. If they should be beefed up to anvil duty I'd say they'd have to be 16 strong, preferably 20, that's way too much points to just shake loose from elsewhere in the list. Any concrete suggestions on alterations to illustrate your idea would be appreciated.

Latest edition:
Commander(Reaver bow, Heavy armour, Shield)
Mage(lvl.2, Seer, Silver Wand, Channeler)
Mage(Jewel of the Dusk, Ring of Fury)
19 Spearelves(Full Command)
20 Spearelves(Standard, musician)
5 First Silver Helms(Full command, Banner of Ellyrion)
5 Silver Helms(Full command)
2 Tiranoc Chariots
5 Shadow Warriors
10 Swordmasters(Banner of Sorcery)
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
2 Great Eagles

Commander goes with the kitted out Spearmen, the champion there will cushion any challenges away from the Commander. The Reavers have been replaced by another Great Eagle, less hitting power but more mobility.

truthsayer
08-10-2006, 19:32
I play against 2 chariots quite often and let me tell you it gets boring. Drop the second eagle, if you need 2 youre not using it properly.

bring back the 5 reavers but give them bows. Put the Commander with them.

have a mage in each unit of spears.

Try to get 12 swordsmasters in that unit so you can have an extra attack and the rank lasts a tiny bit longer.

I like the bow on the commander, you could even drop one of the repeater bolt throwers and add an extra silver helm to each of the units and some other bits here and there. Just to make things last a little longer.

Tobias
08-10-2006, 19:51
a commander on steed if for cc, and in cc he can't use the bow, and most of the time you march with a unit of SH and he can't shoot than

Kroxhandler
08-10-2006, 20:25
I play against 2 chariots quite often and let me tell you it gets boring. Drop the second eagle, if you need 2 youre not using it properly.

bring back the 5 reavers but give them bows. Put the Commander with them.

have a mage in each unit of spears.

Try to get 12 swordsmasters in that unit so you can have an extra attack and the rank lasts a tiny bit longer.

I like the bow on the commander, you could even drop one of the repeater bolt throwers and add an extra silver helm to each of the units and some other bits here and there. Just to make things last a little longer.

How come Ellyrian Reaver eh? Why bows? Why put the Commander there? Sure they'll shoot all over the place and be quick as lightning but they would no longer be a baiting unit, too big a risk of getting the commander killed. And if they flee from a charge they can move but not shoot, making their bows(and the reaver bow!) useless for that turn. Also I think you'll want to march with them more than just move and shoot, you really need to position them carefully to make them work. Rallying with the Reavers shouldn't be much of a problem though, Commander + Musician = ld10. Pretty nice. Still I'm not convinced about their usability....

I'd admit that the second Great Eagle probably is a bit over the top, one should do the job quite nicely. If played correctly, big if. I think I'll have to playtest it and see if I can get the hang of it, after that the second bird is probably trashed.

I think, after conferring with my Orc opponent who loves Boar Chariots, you need two chariots to make the most of them. It's not the impact hits that is the real power, it's the fear of impact hits. Most opponents will wheel, avoid and really try to stay out of a chariot's way for as long as possible. That's the beauty, crowd control. Just one chariot it's not a big deal, most armies have units that can deal with it, two makes all the difference. Then you can really start to reshape your opponents path, making sure the units you want to stay out of range do so.

Thanks for the input, I'll see if I make any alterations.

Lord Anathir
11-10-2006, 00:54
u need more magic defense and less fancy stuff. id make the smastes a large unit, or cut them completely. you're playing orcs dude, you need more magic defense. i rank them beside lizzies, helves and vc for heavy magicness. if it was a matchup where i knew id be playing orcs, id take 4 mages, with the annulian crystal and 4 scrolls between them. he, i believe would do the same and try to stack on magic defense as well. (thus making him magic offensively havey as well)

Kroxhandler
11-10-2006, 09:40
u need more magic defense and less fancy stuff. id make the smastes a large unit, or cut them completely. you're playing orcs dude, you need more magic defense. i rank them beside lizzies, helves and vc for heavy magicness. if it was a matchup where i knew id be playing orcs, id take 4 mages, with the annulian crystal and 4 scrolls between them. he, i believe would do the same and try to stack on magic defense as well. (thus making him magic offensively havey as well)

Well, again, my intel says that my opponent doesn't enjoy stacking magic. He prefers to take 1-2 Orc Shamans and that's about it. Against Orcs Swordmasters seems pretty good, striking first and hard, makes for a great support unit.
Taking maximum amount of mages, with lots of dispel scrolls and other magical goodies, just sounds plain dull to me. Kinda of a magical stalemate, neither side will be able to do anything useful as all their points are spent on preventing the other side from doing anything. It's just a bad strategy IMHO, make your opponent react to your moves instead of letting him dictate the way of the game. If he goes all defensive with magic fine, since you've only spent enough points on mages with a few things in mind it doesn't matter much. The rest of your army will handle the situation and force him to make some rather sticky decisions. Be charged by those silver helms and a chariot in the flank or Spearmen and Swordmasters? Hmm...
Yes, I reckon I'll be outnumbered and not all combats will be a 2 on 1 to my advantage. I'll have to avoid some combats and try to use the elves mobility to get to the ones I can win for sure. Cut the green tide down one piece at a time and dance around them. I believe the key is to not be afraid to flee (or straightout sacrifice) one of the larger units. They're there to be used, to win you the battle, not babysit. If he wants to commit 1/3 of his army hunting down my silver helms I'll let him, though I'll drag on with it for as long as possible. By the time he'll chased them off those units will be far away from the center of the battle and not going to be any good to him.

Well, that's my rant anyways. I won't be stacking scrolls or taking out the Swordmasters. But thanks for the suggestion, if you come to think of anything else feel free to chime in.

Tutore
11-10-2006, 09:50
Difficult but interesting list.