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DragonPup
07-10-2006, 00:38
My gamer's edition only JUST arrived, so I am still learning the rules. If a challenge is issued to a High Elf Spearman champ, can he whip out his hand weapon and shield while the rest of the unit uses their spears? Also, if the challenge was issued on a charge, does the charging unit strike first(barring always strikes first special rules, etc), or by initiative order?

Thanks.

Kotobuki
07-10-2006, 04:07
The charging unit will still strike first, even in a challenge. As for the other question, personally, I'd let him fight with HW&S (in the challenge) while the rest of the unit used spears.

The rules have this to say on the matter of weapon choice... "At the start of the first turn of combat, each such unit can choose which of thier weapons to use (the entire unit must use the same weapon, but characters can always choose seperately)." (p. 54) This would seem to indicate that the Champion (not being a character per se) has to use the same weapon options as his unit.

On challenges, the book says this though... "The rules given below refer to characters, but a unit's champion can issue and accept challenges exactly like a character. (see page 81)" (p.76) Which, would seem to imply that in a challenge, the champion acts as a character. Which would, then, leave him free to choose a different weapon for the challenge, as referenced on page 54.

If we go to page 81 (as referred in the previous rule), it lists in what ways a champion is like a RnF member of the unit, and in which ways he is like a character. "...champions are not characters but members of thier regiment and always fight as part of it..." governing the fact that he may never leave his unit. It then goes on with "...champions are subject to the follwing rules that govern characters... can move within thier unit... can accept and issue challenges... treated as characters when thier unit is hit by ranged attacks..." (p.81) No explicit permission to choose a different weapon. But, if they did that you'd always get to choose for the champion seperate of the unit.

I could see it argued either way, and if an opponent insisted on playing it either as 'champ MUST use the same weapon as his unit at all times' or 'champ may choose a different weapons for Challenges' I would agree with either. But, he certainly may NOT choose HW&S over S&S if he's fighting outside of a challenge.

Griefbringer
07-10-2006, 10:07
I would say that as the rules stand, the champion should use the same armament as the rest of the unit, even in challenge (barring some other rule forcing him to act otherwise, eg. high elf champion with magic weapon).

However, allowing champion to fight differently during a challenge might make for a decent house rule, for those who like the idea.

Kadrium
07-10-2006, 20:18
On challenges, the book says this though... "The rules given below refer to characters, but a unit's champion can issue and accept challenges exactly like a character. (see page 81)" (p.76) Which, would seem to imply that in a challenge, the champion acts as a character. Which would, then, leave him free to choose a different weapon for the challenge, as referenced on page 54.

The challenge rules don't say anything about what weapons you can or can't use, only how they are issued and accepted. This rule says they can issue and accept challenges and those challenges are resolved as if the champ was a character, but it's the character rules that allow for different weapons to be used than the unit he is with. To me, this seems to state simply that for purposes of issuing, accepting, or declining challenges, and how the combat itself is resolved and applies to the CR, the champ works as a character, but he is still governed by the champ rules as far as weapon selection.

DragonPup
07-10-2006, 21:20
So it sounds like rules grey zone. Hrm.

This may sound like a stupid question, but if the champ has a ranged weapon and is issued a challange, can he still stand and shoot?

Griefbringer
07-10-2006, 21:26
I don't think there is any grey zone - champions have to use the same weapons as the rest of the unit, and there is no exception given for challenges (the champion does not become a character when accepting a challenge).

As for the stand and shoot issue, challenges should be issued out in the beginning of the close combat phase - way after stand and shoot reactions have been resolved.

Hagge
07-10-2006, 22:13
Not havening a High elf Army book to hand but can't there champions take magic items?

So if he takes a magic sword wouldnt he have to use that. Heros have to use there's what would be the point in takeing it otherwise if they "must" use the same armament as the unit.

id say he'd be able to use whatever equipment he was carrying in the case of a challange spears are just a formation bonus but when it comes to a challange the two have a path cleared for them to duel you wouldnt use a spear in a duel.

at the end of the day you just have to agree apon these odball things with your opponant before the game.

WLBjork
08-10-2006, 05:10
If a champ can take a magic item and chooses a weapon, then the rules for magic weapons override the normal method of weapons selection anyway - even for characters.

In all other cases though, champions must use the same weapon as their unit.

Griefbringer
08-10-2006, 06:37
Well, I mentioned the high elf champion with magic weapon earlier on - and in that case only the rules of magic weapon override the requirement of whole unit using same weapon.

That said, taking magic items is restricted to the champions of the more elite units, and in most cases it would not make much sense to replace their good ordinary armament with a low-cost magic weapon.

T10
08-10-2006, 12:21
The fact that the champion is involved in a challenge has no bearing on who strikes first or what weapons he can use. The challenge rules make no mention of these, so we should not assume that a wide array of inventive exceptions apply.

E.g. the Spearman does not become a "character" in the same way that he does not become a "flyer" or an "war machine" just because it does not say he does not.

"Who strikes first?" is resolved in the normal manner.

Champions are armed and fight as the rest of the unit. The champion acts as a "character" in a limited and clearly defined situations, neither of wich include the option of fighting with a different weapons combination/fighting mode than the rest of the unit.

-T10

WLBjork
08-10-2006, 16:59
T10, you missed the only exception to that rule - a Champion with a Magic Weapon, which has it's own rules specifying that the Magic Weapon must be used in close combat.

alextroy
08-10-2006, 17:56
Actually, the exception is a little broader then that. A unit champion fights with the same weapons as the unit unless he is specifically (as in by the rules, not the model) armed differently then the unit.

A good example is a Dwarven Thunderer champion who can be armed with a brace of pistols, which means he is armed with two hand weapons in melee while the rest of the unit has just a single hand weapon.

mageith
08-10-2006, 19:19
Actually, the exception is a little broader then that. A unit champion fights with the same weapons as the unit unless he is specifically (as in by the rules, not the model) armed differently then the unit.

Do you have a reference or citation for this?



A good example is a Dwarven Thunderer champion who can be armed with a brace of pistols, which means he is armed with two hand weapons in melee while the rest of the unit has just a single hand weapon.

"The Veteran may carry two pistols instead of his handgun at no extra cost." (Dwarf 53)

As far as I can tell this doesn't explicitly allow the character to USE two pistols in close combat.

I think it's merely an assumption that he can be armed differently in close combat. It doesn't EXPLICITLY override the weapon choice rule on page 54.

My point: If one really, really wants to get RAW on this, no CHAMPION can actually USE a different weapon in close combat.

Even the magic weapon requirement is really just a CONTRADICTION to the rules on page 54 and doesn't EXPLICITLY override it for CHAMPIONS.

"A CHARACTER that has a magic close combat weapon cannot USE any other close combat weapons, although it can CARRY a shield as normal." (121)

So unless a Champion is considered a Character for ALL OF THE the purposes and procedures of challenges he is greatly hampered in his choice of weapons in a challenge and even in normal close combat.

Me? I'd allow a character to use different weapons if he can be armed differently and I'd allow him to use the best combination of weapons and armor in a challenge. In other words, I'd count a champion in a challenge to count as a Character for all purposes. The rules don't explictly say that, of course, but the explicit rules are inadequate at this time.

Mage Ith

Atrahasis
08-10-2006, 22:24
It does not only affect cahmpions either.

By RAW, maneaters who are armed with different weapons in the same unit will be relegated to ogre clubs.

Also, in the case of the Dwarf miners with steam drill taking the upgrade means that the entire unit, including the champion, must use hand weapons.

Kotobuki
08-10-2006, 22:47
Athrasis, re: the maneater "the entire unit must use the same weapon, but characters can always choose seperately". The Maneater is a character, and so can choose seperate of the unit.

The question is, how much of the character rules does a unit champion get in a challenge. Since the rules say that a "champion can issue and accept challenges exactly like a character" we have to decide whether:

A)For the purposes of challenges, a champion is treated as a character
- or -
B)A champion can ONLY specifically do the issuing and accepting of challenges, but gains no other benefits of such.

Since the rules don't actually state that a champion can FIGHT in a challenge like a character, in a purely and strictly RAW sense, he cannot use his Hand Weapon while the unit uses spears.

Then we come across common sense... but that doesn't really count so much.

Atrahasis
08-10-2006, 22:52
Athrasis, re: the maneater "the entire unit must use the same weapon, but characters can always choose seperately". The Maneater is a character, and so can choose seperate of the unit.

No. Maneaters are a rare choice.

mageith
08-10-2006, 23:04
The question is, how much of the character rules does a unit champion get in a challenge. Since the rules say that a "champion can issue and accept challenges exactly like a character" we have to decide whether:

A)For the purposes of challenges, a champion is treated as a character

This could be done with a FAQ.

Crazy Harborc
09-10-2006, 00:46
Um...don't the rules still say a unit champion can act like a character? I really would like to know where in 7th Edition the rules actually say a unit champion becomes a character.

Kotobuki
09-10-2006, 03:58
No. Maneaters are a rare choice.If they're not characters how could they then join another unit? (I ask because I do not have Ogre Kingdoms)

mageith
09-10-2006, 05:46
If they're not characters how could they then join another unit? (I ask because I do not have Ogre Kingdoms)

Maneaters are a rare unit with a special rule: "A mix of weapons in the unit is allowed."
(OK 74)

They can't join other units but their unit allows mixed weapons.

However because they can purchase and carry mixed weapons doesn't supersede the weapon choice rule in and of itself, does it?

"At the start of the first turn of combat, each such UNIT can choose which of their weapons to use (the entire unit must use the same weapon, but characters can always choose separately)." (34)

However the intention of the mixed weapon rule is so clear I doubt if anyone would really attempt to argue this but strictly as Written being allowed to purchase and carry weapons is not the same as being allowed to use them in close combat.

Griefbringer
10-10-2006, 09:46
Another case of a situation of mixed weapons is beastman herds, with ungors having spears - though the rules suggest that the ungors will be able to use the spears regardless of what the gors do.