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Doctor Thunder
07-10-2006, 15:59
If you're not familiar with the project, there are a bunch of threads in the Painting and Modeling forum, the latest of which is here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51644
At the end of the eight post you'll find an FAQ with the fluff I have been using up until now.

The creative process is an evolving one. Modeling and fluff have to be brought together like two halves of a zipper. Now that the project is nearing completion, and about to be painted, I thought it might be a good idea to re-examine the fluff, and perhaps align it better to the way the models turned out. Several posters have brought up some good points, and have suggested that I make a thread dedicated to brainstorming some possible alternatives that might be better then the fluff I origionally wrote.

Remember, we're trying to align the fluff to the models that have been made. I am not going to re-do the 100 marines I've already made, so we need to keep that in mind as we brainstorm.

Here's some of the key points that need to be addressed:

1) They are female space marines. I would like to examine the methods by which there could be female space marines in 40K, and find, perhaps, the most likely and believeable scenario that would be accepted by the greatest majority of gamers out there. Up until I have been using the lost legions as the source of the geneseed, but I would like to get away from that if a better source can be found. Some people have suggested to me along the way that Fabius Bile would be a good source for female geneseed. This could require making the Valkyries a chaos army, which I'm not totally opposed to, or they could be a group which escaped from Bile's experimentations and are now more-or-less mercenaries, or they could be associated with the dark mechanicus, or the Adeptus of Mars could have aquired the geneseed through illegal ties to the dark mechanicus. Or, something else entirely, hopefully that is enought to get the ball rolling on that. Another possibility is to make the Valyries associated with a human group that has been out of touch with the Imperium since before the great crusade.This is probably the biggest wrinkle to be ironed out, because justifying female marines is difficult fluff-wise, but certainly not impossible.

2) They use energy weapons. The models have a wide variety of energy weapons that do not need to be reloaded for months at a time. There is also very little standardization within the army, each squad essentiall fielding it's own unique weapons. We need to re-examine the reasons for this. Perhaps the weapons for each squad are hand-made by individual artificers, or perhaps the energy core's they use are very unsafe for the user, (radioactive or something) and so not fit for general use. Admittedly, this point is difficult to iron out until the first point is more fully developed.

3) Their armor is very different from standard power armor. We need to re-examine the reasons for the difference in the armor's style and thickness.


Your thoughts are appreciated in this matter.

Voronwe[MQ]
07-10-2006, 16:22
In fact, the 'cygots' (I think they are called) requires marines to be male, according to Codex: Space Marines, but the Fabius Bile stuff is acceptable.

Doctor Thunder
07-10-2006, 16:47
Okay, here's an idea on how we could expand the origins a little bit.

At the end of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was dying. If left alone, he owuld have passed away, and simply been reborn into a new body. However, such a thing would have brought about a new civil war, against those who believed in the reincarnated Emperor versus those who did not believe in the reincarnated Emperor.
So, Guileman and the Inquisition made plans to imprison The Emperor's spirit in his dying body by placing him in the Golden Throne. When the two female legions and their primarchs found out about it, they threatened to expose Guileman, who had them destroyed, and all records of them purged.

Jump ahead thousands of years, when the Adeptus Mechanicus stumbles upon some long-forgotten world that had, at one time, been the homeworld of one of the lost legions.

In a sealed vault, they find, preserved in stasis, the body of one of the lost legions, who was sealed away as Guileman and his ultramarines slaughtered the rest of the legion on the surface.

The Mechanicus finds many things inside the vault, but, most importantly, they discover evidence that leads them to discover Guilleman's darkest secrets, that Guilleman betrayed The Emperor in order to preserve the Imperium. That leads the Mechanicus to their decision to go to war against the adeptus of terra. They are attempting to free The Emperor from the Prison Guilleman placed him in so long ago.

Kegluneq
07-10-2006, 18:22
Fiction wise, that sounds nice, but would be very difficult to accept as complimentary to the actual fluff - if not basically impossible.

Adeptus mechanicus may be your best bet, being unisex, although I don't believe they go for such segregation. If you're willing to make them a Chaos army that would be a lot more believable. Sourcing them outside the Empire may be easier still (and would be perfectly feasible in a Heresy era army), although players keen on fluff would be wary of your army being potent on a galactic scale.

Awesome job on the modelling, by the way,

Lancer
07-10-2006, 22:05
Thunder, you could just have them be an unusual Order of Soritas who make extensive use of augmetics to enable them to effectively use power armor.

That would be much easier to reconcile with the established fluff.

starlight
07-10-2006, 22:20
As I have stated many times:p (for those of you not old enough to remember:p:p).......

The simplest solution is Testicular Feminisation. It is an actual medical condition that can be researched on teh Interweb. Basically the person appears to be a normal female with all of the appropriate *parts*, however the person is actually genetic male and is incapable (as far as my research can find) of reproduction. These people tend to be larger than the average female and some have *masculine* physical traits.

There is no reason that these people would not respond to the procedures that turn regular males into Space Marines.

As a side note this is how *female* Marines are justified in my Legio Phoenix Templar Marines.

Tyron
08-10-2006, 00:23
I agree with Lancer on this one folks. Sorry to be a sledge hammer but female space marines will never ever happen, it just wont.

As for the 2 primarchs being female, primarch is the male version of a matriarch. Also there is like a 48 page thread on the 2 mission legions.

starlight
08-10-2006, 00:30
And the reason for male Marines instead of female ones?

Because some guy at GW said so.

Not medicine, not science, not fact - because some geek said so.

Sorry, not good enough for me. GW has a horrible track record in two basic areas:

1) abiding by it's own background

and

2) consistant interpretations of designer's intent.

So I whole heartedly support any well done fan interpretations. If GW had better consistancy, I might be more inclined to adhere to their *official* line, but until they pull up their socks they don't get to preach from the pulpit.

Currently (and only currently - not always and forevermore) GW's Space Marine Chapters are entirely male, but there is nothing to say that there is only one way of doing a given thing.

Tyron
08-10-2006, 00:40
This is from Index Astartes page 7 "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests become successful a candidate becoems a neophyte.

starlight
08-10-2006, 01:01
Yup male muscles are different from female muscles:rolleyes:......just one type of tissue that blows that theory to hell.:p

Just because it's in a GW background book written by someone with zero medical background doesn't make it fact. GW threw in some medical sounding terms, but they sure didn't do any real research.

Nothing personal, but trying to defend GW's editorial practices..............:eyebrows:

Freak Ona Leash
08-10-2006, 01:55
Freak does enjoy applying logic and science to techno-babble in a fictional setting. He agrees with starlight though (who may or not be a girl. Freak is unsure.) in that it is because someone at GW says it is so, that is why it is so, not because there is science supporting it.

starlight
08-10-2006, 02:19
starlight = boy
starlight =/= girl
starlight doesn't:eek: like boys
starlight likes;) girls

However if starlight was a girl, starlight would definately be a lesbian.:D

Bear in mind that I'm not saying that simply accepting GW's authority in matters isn't acceptable. I'm simply saying that they are inconsistant enough that I'm not prepared to do it.

Doctor Thunder
08-10-2006, 02:26
Sorry to be a sledge hammer but female space marines will never ever happen, it just wont..
Well, I'd say less like a sledge hammer and more like a small rock in our path.


This is from Index Astartes page 7 "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests become successful a candidate becoems a neophyte.

Okay, so let's try to turn this into a productive thing. The official fluff says that the current geneseed used by the Imperium only works in males.

Great, fine. I accept that.

However, that does not close the door on the issue.

Why?

Because, there may have been other kinds of geneseed used anciently, that the Imperium no longer knows about, and even the current geneseed could be modified to work in females. Either of those routes can lead us to geneseed that works in females without negating the statement from GW.

So, let's not dwell on whether or not it is possible. Rather, let's look at what are acceptable ways to make it happen.

Chem-Dog
08-10-2006, 03:24
1) They are female space marines. I would like to examine the methods by which there could be female space marines in 40K.
2) They use energy weapons.
3) Their armor is very different from standard power armor. We need to re-examine the reasons for the difference in the armor's style and thickness.


I'm one of those fuddy-duddies who'll argue that Marines can't be female BUT there is an example of post heresy experimentation that could be put to good use, the Cursed Founding.

The 21st Founding is known as the Cursed Founding as all of the Chapters created have either suffered terrible misfortune or been affected by horrific mutations.

There is some suggestion that some radical research in genetic manipulation and such took place during the 21st founding which then subsequently lead to the terrible fates of the Chapters thus created, this experimentation could not, would not have escaped the attentions of the Inquisition, how appealing would it be to a puritanical Hereticus Inquisitor to be able to assemble an army with the might at arms of the Adeptus Astartes BUT totally loyal to The Imperium, to the Inquisition.... to him?

So Your (probably slightly mad) Inquisitor assembles a cadre of Mechanicus Biologists to use the captured material (Data, living specimens, biological samples etc) to start investigating and developing this new army, now by some stroke of luck the Biologists uncover a mutation in a culture they have grown that makes the process work better with Females rather than the traditional Males. It takes the Inquisitor (who is probably a bit older now and quite a bit more bats) a nanosecond to consider where he can find a large enough body of willing female volunteers, Adeptus Sororitas! With his Ordo Hereticus Credentials the Inquisitor has no problem securing the assistance of a near by lesser order, one who he has worked with on several witch hunts in the past.
Taking volunteers from the mission (a majority are Repentia, willing to endure the trials of the process as absolution for their sins) the program sets into full swing, initially the process is slow as the implants each have to be fine tuned, many sisters die tortured deaths as these new organs fail or malfunction, but slowly the complete working set (or a working set with a few of the lesser organs dropped as irrelevant or unworkable) is completed and the first of the Inquisitor's loyal army stands before him.
Realising that the Power Armour of the Adeptus sororitas will no longer accomodate these amazonian warrioresses the Inquisitor commands his now considerable Adeptus Mechanicus entourage to modify their armout to suit their new stature and capabilities, he also requisitions experimental energy weapons possesed by the mechanicus adepts under his command as he knows that to aquire his army the materials to keep them fully equipped will attract the attention of the foolish young upstart Inquisitor who keeps pestering him (Our Inquisitor is now extremely bonkers and under investigation for some unsavoury behaviour).


Now, depending on your preferences anything can happen next, the Inquisitor can be in charge of the "Chapter", he might have been caught by the young Inquisitor who is investigating him, he might even be handed over to the Inquisitor by an Adeptus Mechanicus Magos with a few of the early failed experiments as evidence of the Inquisitor's diabolical, yet ultimately "failed" experiments (the Magos nick's off with the "chapter" and puts them to his own use.....).

The_Patriot
08-10-2006, 05:03
Only problem with your explanation chem dog is that the Sisters abhor genetic manipulation as they view it as an undesireable path for humanity to take. They also view it as being part of the work of Chaos and would rather die then submit to the experiments. They are puritans in every sense of the word.

Drogmir
08-10-2006, 05:40
Sigh it's almost like the whole- most Space Marines are pale european guys (except for the salamanders). But back on topic- go with the Chaos Thing. There's a really limited chance of making a good Space Marine Female Chapter with the fluff that can dodge any loophole that 40K can throw at you. That's why they made sisters of battle.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 05:59
If you're not familiar with the project, there are a bunch of threads in the Painting and Modeling forum, the latest of which is here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51644
At the end of the eight post you'll find an FAQ with the fluff I have been using up until now.

The creative process is an evolving one. Modeling and fluff have to be brought together like two halves of a zipper. Now that the project is nearing completion, and about to be painted, I thought it might be a good idea to re-examine the fluff, and perhaps align it better to the way the models turned out. Several posters have brought up some good points, and have suggested that I make a thread dedicated to brainstorming some possible alternatives that might be better then the fluff I origionally wrote.

Remember, we're trying to align the fluff to the models that have been made. I am not going to re-do the 100 marines I've already made, so we need to keep that in mind as we brainstorm.

Here's some of the key points that need to be addressed:

1) They are female space marines. I would like to examine the methods by which there could be female space marines in 40K, and find, perhaps, the most likely and believeable scenario that would be accepted by the greatest majority of gamers out there. Up until I have been using the lost legions as the source of the geneseed, but I would like to get away from that if a better source can be found. Some people have suggested to me along the way that Fabius Bile would be a good source for female geneseed. This could require making the Valkyries a chaos army, which I'm not totally opposed to, or they could be a group which escaped from Bile's experimentations and are now more-or-less mercenaries, or they could be associated with the dark mechanicus, or the Adeptus of Mars could have aquired the geneseed through illegal ties to the dark mechanicus. Or, something else entirely, hopefully that is enought to get the ball rolling on that. Another possibility is to make the Valyries associated with a human group that has been out of touch with the Imperium since before the great crusade.This is probably the biggest wrinkle to be ironed out, because justifying female marines is difficult fluff-wise, but certainly not impossible.

2) They use energy weapons. The models have a wide variety of energy weapons that do not need to be reloaded for months at a time. There is also very little standardization within the army, each squad essentiall fielding it's own unique weapons. We need to re-examine the reasons for this. Perhaps the weapons for each squad are hand-made by individual artificers, or perhaps the energy core's they use are very unsafe for the user, (radioactive or something) and so not fit for general use. Admittedly, this point is difficult to iron out until the first point is more fully developed.

3) Their armor is very different from standard power armor. We need to re-examine the reasons for the difference in the armor's style and thickness.


Your thoughts are appreciated in this matter.

No ripping off my Fabius Bile idea got it!

As for the second idea, I say drop it, it would be too difficult to represent in game.

But I like the idea of female Space Marines, have ever since I found a wonderful pic of a sexy lil chicka in some Black Templar armor. Wish I knew where that pic got to *sniffles*

So don't let these guys bash you're ideas, if you're fluff is good enough than anything is possible. Oooo that's a good saying, I should save that, hehe.

Kegluneq
08-10-2006, 07:47
And the reason for male Marines instead of female ones?

Because some guy at GW said so.

Not medicine, not science, not fact - because some geek said so.
You mean like the entirety of Games Workshop fluff?

"Of course humanity, the Tau and Eldar would unite against their common foes. Games Workshop is ignoring obvious realpolitik in not allowing galactic alliances between the three races for their mutual gain. So my army has Eldar in battlesuits and Space Marines with rail rifles."

"The galaxy is a huge place and not fully explored. Just because Planet America, homeworld of the United States Space Marines has not been discovered yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. They also have rail rifles and battlesuits for reasons I can only clumsily explain."

"On a small, somewhat isolated agriworld, a low tech population has democratically elected to break from the Imperium and turn to Chaos. This is clearly a good thing because the Imperium is thinly veiled evil that wants to destroy and corrupt all human life, whilst Chaos only wants people to be free and happy. As a sign of respect for the people's free will and well thought out decision, Chaos rewards them with battlesuits and rail rifles."

"So, I had this idea for a Slaneeshi Sororitas army..."

Currently (and only currently - not always and forevermore) GW's Space Marine Chapters are entirely male, but there is nothing to say that there is only one way of doing a given thing.
They've been male for over 10,000 years. I'd say that's less like a trend, more like a pattern...

Just because it's in a GW background book written by someone with zero medical background doesn't make it fact. GW threw in some medical sounding terms, but they sure didn't do any real research.
I'm willing to bet they didn't pay real astrophysicists to write the rules for Battlefleet: Gothic either...

40k is a fantasy game set in a nominally science fiction universe. Nevertheless, there are consistant internal rules that dictate how the fluff may be developed. There are three basic problems with your female Space Marines:

1. Only one type of geneseed, keyed to male chromosomes has ever been mentioned, and all the known Primarchs are male. Perhaps the Emperor was simply misogynist?

2. Why would you bother trying to make a human tank out of women when men are more suited to the role? This isn't a sexist remark, just an observation that without severe hormonal changes, men are, on average, taller, wider and stronger than women. Heavy training will reduce the differences in many respects, but on the whole making large brutal killing machines out of men is somewhat more straightforward than making them out of women. Which leads us to three...

3. How come your female Marines have more high tech Power Armour than regular Marines? And how come they get different muscle tissue? Basically, why are they more advanced?

Edit:

If you are not going to use standard power armour, and not going to use bolters, and in general not be like a marine chapter at all, why is it so important that they are marines?
Exactly! There are better explanations for your army out there, why stick with one that makes no sense?

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-10-2006, 08:24
If you are going to change there weapons and armour anyway, why is it so important that they are space marines? Anything from cybernetics to psychic powers, demonic possession or alternative genetic therapy or just mutations could justify you using marine rules.

Or maybe they are the personal army of some Rogue Trader who found ancient technology and alien artifacts. If you are not going to use standard power armour, and not going to use bolters, and in general not be like a marine chapter at all, why is it so important that they are marines?

Khaine's Messenger
08-10-2006, 08:27
They are female space marines. I would like to examine the methods by which there could be female space marines in 40K, and find, perhaps, the most likely and believeable scenario that would be accepted by the greatest majority of gamers out there.

The problem, as I see it, is exactly what you want to get out of the term "space marine." If you mean "person who wears a certain style of powered armor" then I'll give you that female Space Marines are quite do-able. But if you mean "19 implants approved," I think there's going to be a problem. Not necessarily because female Space Marines are impossible (good heavens no), just that there's little precedent for it. And no matter how arcane your explanation is, it will not be accepted by the "greatest majority of gamers out there" because your explanation will be, by necessity, arcane, since very few people will accept the notion except as "your crazy army theme." Oh, some old timers will complain about RT models of SoB or "female Space Marines," but no one will listen to them or they'll get into arguments with one another. It would be much simpler to handwave it away as author's fiat than to come up with an explanation (and since this is 40k, leaving quite a bit to mystery is perfectly alright in my book).


Up until I have been using the lost legions as the source of the geneseed

To be honest, if this is being considered as an option, it would be best to sideline that as a rumor. 40k is not exactly about "facts" when it comes to the lost legions, and while you can "strongly hint" at the notion that your marines are descended from one of the lost legions, this will be highly problematic because any temperament you ascribe to your marines will reflect your thoughts on the lost legions (whether you want them to or not), which will spoil the whole "atmosphere" people heap around them.


Some people have suggested to me along the way that Fabius Bile would be a good source for female geneseed. This could require making the Valkyries a chaos army, which I'm not totally opposed to, or they could be a group which escaped from Bile's experimentations and are now more-or-less mercenaries

As a "short answer," that would work perfectly. Not sure anyone would really buy it any more than they would buy one of my chum's "Squat Marines" army background, but it's just plausible enough to pass muster.


This is probably the biggest wrinkle to be ironed out, because justifying female marines is difficult fluff-wise, but certainly not impossible.

IMHO the best route is simply to just not try and justify it. Smokescreen it, I say. Of course, it still has ramifications, but....


They use energy weapons. The models have a wide variety of energy weapons that do not need to be reloaded for months at a time.

That would be a holy grail of Imperial technology, considering even lasweapons (while you can reload them by sitting them next to a fire) don't have that sort of capacity. This leads me to believe they aren't associated with the Imperium much....


3) Their armor is very different from standard power armor. We need to re-examine the reasons for the difference in the armor's style and thickness.

Because power armor has not been standardized since nigh the end of the Horus Heresy, really. The entire concept of "marks" of power armor is misleading, as the vast majority of those models (well over 50%) were created before, during, or immediately after the Heresy and have subsequently fallen into disuse as major descriptors (since most armors are Mk6/7 varants). Mk6/7/8, the most recent being 8 (the only major developments being certain stabilizers, the abdomen plate, and the collarguard), have certain defining features, true, but overall Space Marine armor is a work of art, not something that is mass-produced and 100% guaranteed to meet spec. There are some DIY chapters running around with Lorica Segmentata-styled powered armor, for heaven's sake; I really don't think you have to worry.

Tyron
08-10-2006, 09:31
I am curious, why are you trying so hard to get female marines?

Ask GW if it is possible to get female marines (I'd be interested in what they say).

Why would fabious bile make female marines anyway?

A male is superior then a female in every aspect when it comes to war, we are bigger, stronger, more threatening (who would be scared of a big girl?).

You have to remember the Emperor, Imperium and all that is based on our acient times and the Romans ect never used female soilders.

Please dont use the missing lengion thing the BL forum have actually discovered what has happened to one of them, with a good conclusion of the other, and guess what they aint female! :p

Inquisitor S.
08-10-2006, 11:05
A male is superior then a female in every aspect when it comes to war, we are bigger, stronger, more threatening (who would be scared of a big girl?).
Well, never tell that to an Escher Gang ;)

However there will never be any explanation that female marines will be accepted by "the majority of gamers", no chance. That's what SoB are for.


Please dont use the missing lengion thing the BL forum have actually discovered what has happened to one of them, with a good conclusion of the other, and guess what they aint female!
What's this about? Link please.

Tyron
08-10-2006, 11:11
The thing is the necromunder gangs when fully kittied out are harder then marines which makes no sense :p

http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4373

Inquisitor S.
08-10-2006, 11:17
I won't read the 49 pages of pointless arguments on BL, please just sum it up in a few sentences or point out the page you are referring too, every time I paid this thread a visit there was nothing worth reading.

fracas
08-10-2006, 12:23
i have no problems with female space marines
you could always set up the fluff that the requirement for SM to be male for the implant to be a conspiracy to cover up the fact that there were female space marine at one point in time (which there were in previous edition of 40k)
i'd also have no problems with either or both of the two missing legions to be female space marines. this could dove tail nicely as if either legions went chaos, they would have been marked as such and likely still be around.

Tyron
08-10-2006, 12:23
Gathered from everything they know;

One of the Primarchs had invisibility. He could see the souls in the warp something to do with a greek god of the underworld who had a helmet that made him invisible and the two brothers left beside a river (the creaters of Rome?). He was used as a spy for the Emperor.

Both were found before Horus (they believe they met the Emperor)

They took part in the beinning of the HH and then left the Imperium, because of this scholars dint know the exact ammount of number of legions who turned traitor only speculating the other 2 did also.

Due to both haveing immense powers the Emperor hid them from the others.

It is said Magnus is believed to be the most potent pysker for a Primarch however they believe the brothers are

Each Primarch is aligned with a zodiac sign

Only the Emperor could remove their files however not removing them completely for some unknown reason

*I think both Primarchs each embody the Libra and Aquarius zodiacs

*I think the other had healing powers

*I think their bond (as brothers) could not be broken adn though the HH broek them apart at first, their bond brought them back and realised the grass is greener else where.

*I am also writign up my own version (very slowly which I will post here!)

I think that pretty much sums it up, worth a godo read though shows more to the fluff then originally thought.

fracas
08-10-2006, 12:36
Tyron, nothing you posted precludes the two missing primarch to have been women.

Tyron
08-10-2006, 12:52
fracas yes I have

This is from Index Astartes page 7 "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests become successful a candidate becoems a neophyte.

matriarch;
1. the female head of a family or tribal line.
2. a woman who is the founder or dominant member of a community or group.

Patriarch;
1. the male head of a family or tribal line.
2. a person regarded as the father or founder of an order, class, etc.
3. any of the very early Biblical personages regarded as the fathers of the human race

www.dictionary.com

The difference is GW went for something original and called them Primarchs. Also it is stated that each Primarch was found in turn. So the Imperium know they were male and not female.

Also why are you pushing so hard for female marines?

edit: The Emperor was born 8000bc he was around during the biblical days and thus (as GW has shown throughout) the Imperium is based on those days there were no women who had such roles as the Primarchs. GW themselves are using those types of methlogoy for their fluff.

Female Marines wont happen.

Voronwe[MQ]
08-10-2006, 13:02
Though more female Imperial Guard models should happen.

Inquisitor S.
08-10-2006, 13:15
So what do you want to tell us with the definition of patriarch and matriarch? That Primarch incidentally starts with a "P"?

Unless you get somebody official to write in an official publication that there were female primarchs or female space marines, I will never accept this idea. Apart from the fact, that there was a primarch with invisibility power (who could also have been one of the known ones) everything else is pure speculation.

Doctor Thunder
08-10-2006, 14:13
*Does Star Wars Viceroy Voice*

Ah, at last we are getting results. My thanks to those who have added something meaningful to this discussion rather than just trying to drag it off topic.


Okay, so now we're starting to collect a good list of possibilities for female geneseed. I'll sumarize:

1) Fabius Bile could have created it, he certainly is among a few individual that has the knowledge to do it, although there may be others.

2) It could have come about as a result of the Cursed Founding experimentations.

3) There could be a group of females who, through some weird genetic quirk, can accept normal geneseed.

4) There could have been alternate geneseed developed prior to the great crusade.

5) One or more of the missing legions could have been female, and their geneseed likewise keyed to female body-type.

6) An extremely radical Inquisitor would have the resources and authority to have something like that developed.

So, what we need to do now in this discussion is direct our attentions towards comparing the options we have, and possibly adding a few more, and determine which route would be the best to take.




Ask GW if it is possible to get female marines (I'd be interested in what they say).
Here's what Dirty Steve had to say on this when he visited the Bolter and Chainsword forum a while back:

Dirty Steve on Female Space Marines:

As far as i've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all. :)

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!
I've had the privilage of meeting a lot of the GW higher-ups over the years, and I can vouch that his attitude is shared by most of them. They are a great bunch of hard-drinking, hard-smoking guys who just want to laugh and have fun and play games with really cool conversions, great paint jobs, and spectacualr terrain. They do not argue about the fluff, and they LOVE it when people come up with their own stuff. In fact, you'd be surprised how much of the current GW fluff started out as someone's pet project.


Female Marines wont happen.
And, yet, already we have found six scenarios where it would. This is science fiction. There is always 50 ways around any problem, no matter how insurmountable. You just have to be creative.


The difference is GW went for something original and called them Primarchs. Also it is stated that each Primarch was found in turn. So the Imperium know they were male and not female.
That's just silly. Primarch is a made up word. It could be gender-neutral for all we know. Stop stretching so hard to back up your point. We know what your opinion is, and we respect it. This thread, however, does not exist to debate the points you are making. We are discussing possible scenarios whereby there could be female space marines, not whether or not you think it is possible.

If you would like to debate the possibility or impossibility of female space marines, that would be a great subject for another thread you could start.;)

marineowar
08-10-2006, 14:28
Ok, this post comes in 2 part, on topic and off topic.
On topic first.
My solution...
Admech experimentation. The mechanicus were experimenting with Space Marine Gene Seed, trying to make it compatable with females.
Reasoning: Trying to creat Male and Female marines so they can procreate and forgo the entire transformation process.
And yes I am aware that the transformation renders male marines infertile, this was another part of the experimentation.

For the weapons, simply say that they are protypes. Part of an experiment in increasing the power of hand held las weapons. (as opposed to las cannons) Use the normal stats.

Second part.
me b***hing...
I know all you die hard fluff fanatics are going to kick and scream that this can't be done. And you know what, you're probably right. According to official GW fluff, it can't. But don't the designers and fluff writers always say that we can get as creative as we like with our backgrounds?

So Doctor Thunder wants female marine when you know that it can't be done. Instead of jumping in his thread and loading it up with reasons why it can't be done, just keep scrolling on to the next one. He asked for help making it work in 40k, not reasons why it can't.
If you don't have something helpful to contribute then just continue on, and leave the "misguided fools who want female marines" in peace.

If you want to have a dig at me for supporting this "fluff heresy" then kindly do it via PM. There're enough useless posts in this thread already.

Tyron
08-10-2006, 14:45
He is asking for the impossible, he is asking for somethinf that couldnt happen like an underwater hair dryer it WONT happen.

The only way by the stretch of the imagination in all unlikelyness would be Slaneesh giving them a sex change, the only way.

I have said many times why it ant be doen but they throw it all aside but they still dotn answer ,why they want female marines.

Shibboleth
08-10-2006, 14:57
Have you seen this?:
http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarsgirls.html

I could never bring myself to do it, but anyway, my idea for how Marines could be female is maybe Tzeentch just changed them, being the Changer of Ways and all.
They could still look somewhat Imperial if you wanted, maybe being one of his more subtle art pieces...?

Or Slaanesh transgendered them, for whatever pervy reason she has. :angel:


Now, I might go off and whip up some Male Sisters of Battle!
:cheese:

Doctor Thunder
08-10-2006, 15:14
He is asking for the impossible, he is asking for somethinf that couldnt happen like an underwater hair dryer it WONT happen.

The only way by the stretch of the imagination in all unlikelyness would be Slaneesh giving them a sex change, the only way.

That's great man. You said it's impossible and then gave a possible way to do it all in the same post.:p

Okay, we'll add number seven to our list:

7) Slaneesh (Or Tzeench) could have changed a group of marines into females, altering their geneseed along with them.



I have said many times why it ant be doen but they throw it all aside but they still dotn answer ,why they want female marines.
Well, honestly, I've been avoiding answering that question because of the tone of your posts. I get the feeling that you want to know so that you may ridicule my reasons.

However, that is only my assumption based on your posts. I don't know you, so for all I know you might be the nicest guy in the world who just sincerely wants to understand. So, I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt and give you my reasons, and I hope that you will exercize civility and respect in this matter.

Here are some of my reasons:

1) Everyone puts a lot of time and effort into the armies they build, and no one more so then the people who convert every model in their army. Making a Female Space Marine army has been an enormous undertaking of time and effort, requireing easily ten times the amount of effort of making a normal space marine army.
It has, also, been ten times more rewarding then any other project I have ever done, precisely because it has taken so much time, creativity, and effort. It has strained my abilites to their very edge and beyond, and I have grown immensily as a modeler because of it. There is a feeling of accomplishment at tackling such a difficult project that is just wonderful

2) Cool conversions and cool themes are really the heart and soul of the hobby. Anyone who has been to a GT knows how much more fun it is to see an army full of fun and new conversions and a fun and different theme then it is to see yet another army that we have already seen a thousand times before. I would take one cool theme army over a thousand armies made straight out of the box. These armies breathe life into the hobby, and I think it is wrong when we try and splutch any idea that comes along that doesn't conform.
This hobby would get very stale very fast if we forced all armies to conform.

3) Because it's never been done before, to my knowledge. People have made the odd model here and there online, but I don't think there's an entire army of female space marines anywhere in the entire world. Even if there are, there aren't very many. Chances are most people will never ever see one in person. To me, rarity creates value. I would rather have an army that is only like .01% of the other armies other there, then an army that is just like 99.99% of the other armies out there.

4) Because I find the character and persona of a female warrior fascinating and intriguing from a storytelling and role-playing perspective. How would they fight campaigns differently from their male counterparts? How would they associate with allied male soldiers? How would they win the respect of others that might look down on them? What circumstances would lead to the creation of such an army, and what would be the consequences? How would they react differently them male armies to the horrors of war? Would a different style of command be necessary for an all-female army?
Women have different natural abilities then men do. They can multi-task better, but have less spacial relation; they are more resistent to pain, but have more difficulty seperating their emotions from a situation to analyze it objectively. How would this affect their preformance on the battlefield and would it lead to them specializing in certain areas that male marines would not? These kinds of questions are intellectually interesting, and add an element of understanding human behavior to the otherwise flat marine character.
Or, to summarize, that is sooo much more interesting to me then some emotionless guy shouting 'Praise to the Emperor' as he charges.

5) Because I find the imagry and look of a female warrior artistically and asthetically beautiful.



Hopefully we have now come to a certain understanding. Like I said before, I find no fault with your opinion. You are entitled to it, and I respect it. Now, let's get back to the topic at hand, shall we? :)

Tyron
08-10-2006, 15:24
I have read your post and will go into it in more detail later but no5 stuck at the most. These are the main reasons the Emperor made male Marines so everyone wouldnt need more issues on their lap.

Doctor Thunder
08-10-2006, 15:29
I have read your post and will go into it in more detail later but no5 stuck at the most. These are the main reasons the Emperor made male Marines so everyone wouldnt need more issues on their lap.

Please do so by pm or in another thread. This is just not the place for the debate you are dragging this thread into.

Now, back on topic. :)

Tyron
08-10-2006, 15:39
Doctor Thunder you seem to want all this on a plate, for people to find this believable, but if you cant afford for your work to be poked at by the majority of the community then how can we accept it?

That is the only way it will be accepted by us poking everything which doesn’t seem right and you defend it with adjustments until it is perfect so there if nothing for us to poke at. That’s how things get better.

Going from the fluff, the Imperium's technology is stagnant so having two sets (three if we count SoB) would be a considerable drain on the Imperium's resources.

Also why would the Imperium need two types of Astartes requiring the Imperium to modify armour, weapons, implants, doctrines everything to accommodate the female gender of the Astartes. Why not keep it male?

I don’t do this to be nasty or anything, I respect what you’re trying to do, but I like the game a lot and when someone tries to pull something this spectacular I want it to be the best they can do.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 15:44
^^" Wow, long post, but you also forgot how cruel or merciless they can be too.

Now personally I took the Fabius Bile route for the creation of my unisex 13th Company, but I can see how the Slaanesh route might also work. But you could also just go with the super human Amazonian women wearing captured power armor. God-Emperor knows there are plenty of heavy grav worlds out there, and there has to be some Amazonians on one of them at least, so perhaps they don't even need to rely on geneseed and rather do what the Amazons did of legend.

Lord Uglor
08-10-2006, 15:56
Doctor Thunder, just a quick idea, something that I don't think has been approached by any so far. This idea requires (not really, but it is better to know something about it) having read Horus Rising. In it they encounter a race of humans called the interex...technologically advanced humans, ones that through the course of the story get to know something of the distinction between Primarch and Marine. Then through a 'misunderstanding' find themselves on the receiving end of some Imperial whoop-ass. To my knowledge, the interex are never fully eradicated, and thus could have started a primarch/supersoldier program themselves, perhaps based upon fallen marines, reclaimed and genetically copied. Perhaps the genetic code of these humans was sufficiently different from the Terran humans for the geneseed to be applicable to females, or perhaps they were the likely candidate due to male depopulation in the war with the Imperium.

I like this idea as it allows for the different power armour and weapons, and also allows all those who say NO to female Space Marines to rest assured that they are not really Space Marines, but other technologically advaced humans that are working for their own agenda, and have knowledge of Chaos and the warp. Just my 2 cents.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 16:03
Which make them rock harder than any marine in my book. I cool japanese theme would also rock. ^^

Tyron
08-10-2006, 16:07
Very plausible, they arent marines (which is good as you wont get 99% of the community on your ass). Gives you more room for development and not restricted by Imperial fluff.

However they cant be harder then marines! :p

philbrad2
08-10-2006, 16:09
TYRON/Dr THUNDER keep things civil and on topic please.

+ + WARSEER INQUISITION + +


PhilB
:chrome:

sanctusmortis
08-10-2006, 16:09
GAH! You say "female" on these boards and people start frothing.

Why are White Scars held in so much regard? Because a member of staff brought them back to the fore. Why is Piscina in the history? Because a staff member had a big campaign involving a load of studio people held there. That's 2 fan-based massive changes right there. They have nothing to do with canon or importance, they were made so because the developers liked what they saw.

You want reasons for female marines? Here's a short list:

1. The Adeptus Sororitas just aren't enough. Let's face it, it was an official attempt to make female marines without copping out of their own history.
2. The Imperial Guard and Eldar both allow for females, and with nearly every other army it's hard to tell or they're genderless. It makes sense that such a policy could exist for marines.
3. Historical imperative; there are many historic cultures with strong women. Look at Red Sonja, the Amazons, Valkyries, Hellenic and Celtic myth... I could go on. History is oft repeated in GW source material, and why not this?
4. With the endless variety of human worlds colonised by humanity, are you telling me there isn't going to be one where the females are the dominant part of the species? And that the Imperium wouldn't try and make them EVEN STRONGER?
5. Why don't you want them, anyhow? You're afraid of change? Are you, say, one of the people who was against Tycho and Eldrad dying, the emergence of the C'Tan, the further expaniosn of the Tau? Change is a necessity of the hobby. A still game is a stale game.
6. As has already been mentioned, GW's official line is a copout. Better reasoning or retraction, please.

As for how female marines could be created:

1. A whole new process. I'm pretty sure that, in times like the Imperium is currently having, somebody could find original, never used techniques that produce similar results, to cover the dire circumstances and boost the forces.
2. It's entirely possible they already exist. There are many secretive orders in the Imperium, and it is entirely possible that, on Terra, such a force already exists. We know of the Adeptus Astartes, Custodes, Arbites... who's to say there isn't one deciated to a female force comparable to marines? This also explains the unusual weaponry. WYSIWYG them into the standard weapons, et voila.
3. Damn it, everyone already covered all the others I can think of.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 16:10
Oh trust me, have you seen japanese technology! It puts imperial technology to shame, to shame I say!

There there Sanctusmortis, sorry for stealing your thunder ^^"

Tyron
08-10-2006, 16:20
philbrad - we have been, we are debating, not arguing :)

sanctusmortis what your basically asking for is to neglect 31 (I think) of cannon.

"1. A whole new process. I'm pretty sure that, in times like the Imperium is currently having, somebody could find original, never used techniques that produce similar results, to cover the dire circumstances and boost the forces."

Only the Emperor knows how to do all this, when the Primarchs where lost that was it, they were screwed.

However if the Emperor wanted female marines why didnt he make them? ;)

Sarge
08-10-2006, 16:22
So? Why do you care what someone else does with their army? If you're not here to help, than why are you complaining?

Tyron
08-10-2006, 16:25
Sarge - look back on my other post about it. I suport his intentions, but they work best when tested.

starlight
08-10-2006, 16:27
You mean like the entirety of Games Workshop fluff?

They've been male for over 10,000 years. I'd say that's less like a trend, more like a pattern...

I'm willing to bet they didn't pay real astrophysicists to write the rules for Battlefleet: Gothic either...

40k is a fantasy game set in a nominally science fiction universe. Nevertheless, there are consistant internal rules that dictate how the fluff may be developed. There are three basic problems with your female Space Marines:

1. Only one type of geneseed, keyed to male chromosomes has ever been mentioned, and all the known Primarchs are male. Perhaps the Emperor was simply misogynist?

2. Why would you bother trying to make a human tank out of women when men are more suited to the role? This isn't a sexist remark, just an observation that without severe hormonal changes, men are, on average, taller, wider and stronger than women. Heavy training will reduce the differences in many respects, but on the whole making large brutal killing machines out of men is somewhat more straightforward than making them out of women. Which leads us to three...

3. How come your female Marines have more high tech Power Armour than regular Marines? And how come they get different muscle tissue? Basically, why are they more advanced?

Edit:

Exactly! There are better explanations for your army out there, why stick with one that makes no sense?

Yes, just like all GW background.:D

Actually barely 19 years (RT launched in 1987) and not even all of that, since there were female Space Marines back in the RT days- not quite 10,000 years.:eyebrows:

Nope, but it's not a space battle simulator - heck it doesn't even represent space in 3D.

1) Nope. It only mentions that what is currently used works with males - nothing is mentioned about past attempts - especially the Cursed Founding.

2) This is your assumptions of Marines being used to justify an explanation. As seen below I'll point out roles within the Marine organisation that are actually more suited to females.:eek:

3) That's his background, but in mine they are more advanced because they have been away from the stagnant Imperium and allowed to continue R&D.

Actually it makes just as much sense as anything coming out of GW these days.:eyebrows:

On a more general note:

The Legio Phoenix Templar (my DIY Marines) have a female/male breakdown somewhat like this:

Command - even split
Terminators - 80% male
Veterans - 65% female
Tacticals - even split
Scouts - 80% female (operating more like Wolf Scouts than regular Scouts)
Assault - 80% male (physical traits of males predispose them to this role)
Devastator - 75% female (studies show females are actually better marksmen)
Vehicle crews - even split
Support staff - even split
Basically females are allowed to develop their abilities in roles that they will excel, just like the males.
Oh, and females are *not* better at multi-tasking that's a widely held myth based on a misinterpretation of a study that showed that women can perform a single repetitive physical task (such as working on an assembly line) more effectively than males due to their ability to daydream to keep their morale up. Humans are generally poor at multi-tasking, with studies showing that attempts at it actually increase total time on task by at least 25% and up to 400%. We are far better at focusing on one task through completion and moving on to the next one.

Oh and anyone who says that women aren't suited for or capable of what Marines do/the military does/etc...

Spend some time with an Infantry unit with female members, then stop imposing your limitations on them. Having served with them, I know women in the military - all the way out to the Infantry who can out perform *any* member of these forums. Not that we represent a segment of society that would do particularly well in the military.

Doctor Thunder
08-10-2006, 16:31
Okay, so we've got three more:

8) A human group unaffiliated with the rest of humanity since before the great crusade.

9) A new process entirely, unaffiliated with geneseed, like nano-machines that reconstruct a human female to have all of the extra organs and healing abilities that marines have without the need for geneseed.

10) Drugs that enhance preformance and latent psychic abilities, boosting a normal female to the same level as a marine.


I'm going to make a poll so that everyone can vote on which one they feel is the most plausable and we can get a pretty good idea of what a portion of the community will go for, but that does not mean that this thread is done. There are still a lot of wrinkles to discuss.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 16:39
Sarge - look back on my other post about it. I suport his intentions, but they work best when tested.

And read my post again, and than again, untill you read the last section saying, "If you're not here to help, than why are you complaining?"

If you're here to help than you may complain, but only if.

Doctor Thunder
08-10-2006, 16:54
Okay, guys. I added in the poll. Vote away.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 16:59
I like the nano-machine idea along with the hidden group of humanity, ^^ perhaps you could tie the two together.

Doctor Thunder
08-10-2006, 17:04
I like the nano-machine idea along with the hidden group of humanity, ^^ perhaps you could tie the two together.


Definately. It would show how they were similar to the humans that lived on terra, but ended up going on a divergent route to acheive similar results.

starlight
08-10-2006, 17:08
Voted.:D

Personally, I'd shy away from the last two simply because nano-machines are likely so far beyond all tech seen in the 40K universe and any boosting of a normal human to Marine levels would burn out the person too quickly to be cost effective. The cost of Marines is justifiable because they live for hundreds of years. Without that long term payback.........?

Sarge
08-10-2006, 17:11
Yeah ^^ and that divergence would take them into an understanding of technology unlike the rest of humanity. Perhaps even on the eastern front, with ties to the Tau empire. Who knows it's all possible... except don't steal my Fabius Bile idea... seriously.

Doctor Thunder
08-10-2006, 17:20
Voted.:D

Personally, I'd shy away from the last two simply because nano-machines are likely so far beyond all tech seen in the 40K universe and any boosting of a normal human to Marine levels would burn out the person too quickly to be cost effective. The cost of Marines is justifiable because they live for hundreds of years. Without that long term payback.........?


Well, we'd just call it a "machine virus" to make it sound more 40K-ish.
The weird part is that it wouldn't necessarily have to be expensive. To develop, certainly, very expensive, but if it acts like a virus and replicates itself in the body of it's host, for example, then you could create new female marines just by giving them transfusions of blood from existing marines.

Oh, and I think it'd be wicked fun, if we cose the alternate human group, to haev them be associated, or even full members of the tau empire. Unfortunatly, then I'd get a whole nother round of beatings from the fluff nazis for making "tau space marines."

Chem-Dog
08-10-2006, 17:45
Only problem with your explanation chem dog is that the Sisters abhor genetic manipulation as they view it as an undesireable path for humanity to take. They also view it as being part of the work of Chaos and would rather die then submit to the experiments. They are puritans in every sense of the word.

Hmm, not a big problem, just exchange SoB's for a willing female cult or warrior caste/unwilling female captives, the Inquisitor is not on the straight and narrow so he coulld manage to persuade the SoB's that his work is the will of the Emperor or just force them to do it (probably using heretical mind control devices or psychic powers), for a group of people able to wipe out entire planetary populations this is really small fry ;)


So what do you want to tell us with the definition of patriarch and matriarch? That Primarch incidentally starts with a "P"?


Patriarch is a male term, it refers to a male therefore a Patriarch cannot, by deffinition be Female.



I know all you die hard fluff fanatics are going to kick and scream that this can't be done. And you know what, you're probably right. According to official GW fluff, it can't. But don't the designers and fluff writers always say that we can get as creative as we like with our backgrounds?


My impression was that this thread was a request to make the army in question dovetail with established background, I certainly wouldn't want to field an army that stood out of the background like a sore thumb and I assumed that's what Dr T wanted to avoid. I'm saying Female Space Marines CAN'T happen but there are plenty of ways to make an equivalent acceptable.



I like the nano-machine idea along with the hidden group of humanity

Nano Tech is science fiction cool, I'd love to see a 40K race that is either entirely NT (like SG-1's Replecators) or utilises it in some way, perhaps a human off shoot with ancient golden age technology and (gasp) thinking machines.

As I said above, Female Marines is wrong BUT Female warriors with a skill and ability comparable with Marines is perfectly fine, especially in a game where everything revolves around D6, the Valkyries could be vastly different in ability to Marines but superior to SoB's enough to make Marines their closest comparison.

The other option is a privately funded endeavour, if you read Ravenor Returned you will see a good example of what powerful individuals within the Imperium can get up to. If you don't want to know, don't look behind the curtain a small group of powerful and connected individuals manage to second the administrative hub of an entire sub sector to research a heretical text using the planet's massed army of administrators to deduce it by phontetic components from an endless stream of non sensical letter combinations.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 17:55
That's what I did, though I swear man, if you use my Fabius Bile idea, there will be no end to your misery! Slaanesh will be too good of a fate for you, and you shall know the wicked sin of the god of "QOUOIJOJ"! FEAR HIM/HER/IT!

As for full members of the Tau Empire... perhaps not, but rather trading partners?

fracas
08-10-2006, 18:02
fracas yes I have

This is from Index Astartes page 7 "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests become successful a candidate becoems a neophyte.

matriarch;
1. the female head of a family or tribal line.
2. a woman who is the founder or dominant member of a community or group.

Patriarch;
1. the male head of a family or tribal line.
2. a person regarded as the father or founder of an order, class, etc.
3. any of the very early Biblical personages regarded as the fathers of the human race

www.dictionary.com

The difference is GW went for something original and called them Primarchs. Also it is stated that each Primarch was found in turn. So the Imperium know they were male and not female.

Also why are you pushing so hard for female marines?

edit: The Emperor was born 8000bc he was around during the biblical days and thus (as GW has shown throughout) the Imperium is based on those days there were no women who had such roles as the Primarchs. GW themselves are using those types of methlogoy for their fluff.

Female Marines wont happen.

the only thing you have here is that both Primarch and patriarch starts with a P. not much of a "proof" is it?

regarding zygotes and sex, female sex is the default phenotype. and both sexes have both hormones, just in varying amounts.

The Emperor transcends Sharia laws.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 18:18
Sharia? What's that?

And yes technically it's the default phenotype as in the X chromosome is inherent within the species, but there are gender specifc sperm, X and Y, so... You shouldn't say zygotes as that incompases all zygotes, the ovum and the sperm.

By the way this post has nothing to do with females not being able to be space marines, I just wanted to clarify the definition of zygotes and it's missuse, and personally I am all for female space marines as there is nothing in biology that contridicts the possiblity, and in fact supports it. Look at other species, the female is most of the time, the larger and more dominate of the species. Only we humans and a few other mammalian species have larger more dominate males, but for humans that is only due to the demands of society.

Kegluneq
08-10-2006, 18:56
Oh and anyone who says that women aren't suited for or capable of what Marines do/the military does/etc...

Spend some time with an Infantry unit with female members, then stop imposing your limitations on them. Having served with them, I know women in the military - all the way out to the Infantry who can out perform *any* member of these forums. Not that we represent a segment of society that would do particularly well in the military.
I hope you weren't addressing that at me. I'm certainly not arguing that women can never be as good as male soldiers; rather that they're statistically much less likely to be.

I've voted for the last one, because it's the only option I'd be happy to play.

starlight
08-10-2006, 19:03
Nope.:D That's why I specifically broke up the post with the comment about *a more general note*:D

Agreed, *more* men make better soldiers, but not *all* men, and just because *fewer* women make good soldiers doesn't make *all* women unacceptable, just a different pecentage.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 19:09
And a percentage that ensures the appropiate number of superior genetic breeding couples survive.

Axel
08-10-2006, 19:36
I like the idea that they are descendents from one of the two lost orders. That would finally give us a reason why these orders were deleted (hell, they did not delete the chaos orders, so what else could that be...).

The original idea behind female superenhanced beings even makes sense, if you try to breed them. It probably resulted in anything but usefull offspring, and the reproduction by cloning just the enhancements made one of the two unnecessary. The only resulting problem would be where these orders hid in all the intervening millenias. A good shot would be Mars, under protection (and close inspection) by the Adeptus Mechanicus, who now, after Gryphonne IV fell, open up their box a bit and field units that were held in reserve for dire circumstances (like civil war with some inquisitorial faction)...

Sarge
08-10-2006, 20:00
I don't like that idea, mainly because the BS of super human beings not being able to reproduce. It's just an excuse for GWS lack of insight.

Kegluneq
08-10-2006, 20:07
I like the idea that they are descendents from one of the two lost orders. That would finally give us a reason why these orders were deleted (hell, they did not delete the chaos orders, so what else could that be...).

This idea I hate with a passion. The Imperium hates women warriors more than it hates Chaos? No way. Look at the SoB, or female Inquisitors - no shirking from violence in authoritive positions there.

I don't like that idea, mainly because the BS of super human beings not being able to reproduce. It's just an excuse for them to be controlable.
Actually, given the amount of genetic tinkering going on it's not too unreasonable to assume Space Marines are basically mules. It would explain why there's never been any examples of a Marine, corrupted or otherwise, fathering a child (that I've heard of at least).

starlight
08-10-2006, 20:10
Actually I'm quite comfortable with Marines not reproducing. Heck since modern steriods can impair that ability, I'd imagine the cocktails of drugs and surgeries that Marines undergo would have a similar (and worse!) effect.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 20:25
Well I said frack it all when I made the fluff for my Wolves of Balder. Male, Female, all kicking ass in power armor and having children aboard giant fleets. But than again I ditched the whole geneseed stuff, because all it basically is, is the reproductive organs of the Space Marines.

Actually some steroids actually increase you're reproductive capabilites, that's what viagra is, a sex steroid.

Kegluneq
08-10-2006, 20:29
Actually some steroids actually increase you're reproductive capabilites, that's what viagra is, a sex steroid.
Er, it just induces erections - it has nothing to do with fertility.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 20:33
All metabolic steroids do is increase the flow of testosterone to your muscles.

And using a WH40k example, it's like Space Marince and IG, there's alot more IG even though they may be weaker, but they still get the job done that the fewer Space Marines do.

And if that didn't make since, just because you're fertility count is lowered due to metabolic steroids, doesn't mean sex enchancers such as viagra won't help, after all just because IG are weaker than SM doesn't mean more IG won't have any effect on a battle.

The_Patriot
08-10-2006, 21:36
Viagra doesn't enhance sperm count and isn't designed for it either. It's designed specifically for causing an erection and nothing more. There are other drugs out there that increase fertility like clomiphene and hMG.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 21:42
Ok... I will concede to your knowledge of fertility drugs... this is getting a lil creepy though, so how about we leave it at that.

starlight
08-10-2006, 21:43
Erm, no.:p As with many drugs on the market, it is not currently used for its original purpose.

To quote Wiki:


Sildenafil (compound UK-92,480) was synthesized by a group of pharmaceutical chemists working at Pfizer's Sandwich, Kent research facility. It was initially studied for use in hypertension (high blood pressure) and angina pectoris (a form of ischaemic cardiovascular disease). Phase I clinical trials under the direction of Ian Osterloh suggested that the drug had little effect on angina, but that it could induce marked penile erections.[1][2] Pfizer therefore decided to market it for erectile dysfunction, rather than for angina. The drug was patented in 1996, approved for use in erectile dysfunction by the Food and Drug Administration on March 27, 1998, becoming the first pill approved to treat erectile dysfunction in the United States, and offered for sale in the United States later that year.[3] It soon became a great success: annual sales of Viagra in the period 1999–2001 exceeded $1 billion.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 21:49
Back to the topic at hand...

starlight
08-10-2006, 21:58
You just typed faster than me.:p

Personally, I use Testicular Feminisation to explain my female Marines because it's a real medical condition that answers all of the concerns. Jump up and down all they want, the fan-boys can't trump science by waving the rulebook, no matter how much they want to believe GW is all knowing. Just because the Imperium is too hidebound to colour outside the lines and test a few girls from time to time, doesn't mean that everyone is so restricted.

Thus, in the days surrounding the Heresy, was born Legio Phoenix Templar with female Marines, failed Marine recruits surviving to serve the Legio in combat roles, advanced technology and a burning desire to return to the Imperium to prove their devotion to the Emperor.

That last bit is going to cause all sorts of problems when they meet the first Imperial units......:p

Sarge
08-10-2006, 22:22
I went with Fabius Bile experimenting on both men and women to create super soldiers with space marine like abilities that didn't rely on geneseed, hence why they'd have to be sexually capable.

Personally it fits past dreams I had when I was a kid, so it fits me, but than again they're use the 13th Company "codex" rather than the normal space marine codex.

And yes, I type faster than you because I can actually type, let me guess you have to stare at the keyboard right?

starlight
08-10-2006, 22:26
Erm, doesn't everyone? :o

Actually, I *can* type (and do, if slowly:p), I just keep going back and rethinking what I've said...sometimes the words in my head don't make sense to the people outside of it.:D

Sarge
08-10-2006, 22:29
Possibly, but than again I don't really care if my thoughts make since to anyone but me either lol

Kegluneq
08-10-2006, 23:43
Personally, I use Testicular Feminisation to explain my female Marines because it's a real medical condition that answers all of the concerns. Jump up and down all they want, the fan-boys can't trump science by waving the rulebook, no matter how much they want to believe GW is all knowing. Just because the Imperium is too hidebound to colour outside the lines and test a few girls from time to time, doesn't mean that everyone is so restricted.
Erm, testicular feminisation just means the individual won't respond to male hormones. Yes, you have someone genetically male, but aren't you left with the same problems regarding geneseed implantation? It's also a rare condition meaning the potential recruitment class is going to be one twenty thousandth of the size... You could still work with this, having a world particularly afflicted with this mutation turning their androgen-immune men into genetically boosted warriors, I suppose.

Sarge
08-10-2006, 23:47
Yeah, I think he's swinging for the amazonian-esque warriors from a distant human civilization who has had contact with the present Imperium through Tau traders and Gue'vesa'la. After all the Imperium is only so large, but colonization fleets still venture beyond it's borders.

starlight
08-10-2006, 23:59
Erm, no. Both males and females respond to hormones, the type of hormone determines the reaction, but both sexes *will* be affected - if not in the same way.

Which problems would these be? It is of particular note that *none* of the glands or tissues that are particular to males have anything to do with the implant/augmentation proccess:eek: Oops GW:o. All of the tissues identified (and all homones) are present in both males and females in varying degrees.

The simple reality is that the most likely reason for Marines being male only is Imperial Dogma, not science.

The_Patriot
09-10-2006, 00:05
Erm, no. Both males and females respond to hormones, the type of hormone determines the reaction, but both sexes *will* be affected - if not in the same way.

Which problems would these be? It is of particular note that *none* of the glands or tissues that are particular to males have anything to do with the implant/augmentation proccess:eek: Oops GW:o. All of the tissues identified (and all homones) are present in both males and females in varying degrees.

The simple reality is that the most likely reason for Marines being male only is Imperial Dogma, not science.

Actually certain hormones like testosterone affect males and females differently. For men it is helpful with fertility and in building muscle mass. For women it builds muscle mass at the expense of lowering her fertility. Estrogen has the same effect on men that testosterone has on women.

starlight
09-10-2006, 00:09
Which would be a slightly different way of repeating what I said.:eyebrows:

Sarge
09-10-2006, 00:20
Ok, this is so off topic now...

The_Patriot
09-10-2006, 00:21
Which would be a slightly different way of repeating what I said.:eyebrows:

Not really since you stated that there was no medical reason for why Marines were all male. I've disproven that with medical science. Face it, men and women's bodies are different and what may be good for men is often times detrimental to women hormonally. A good theory on why the implants do not work on women is due to them needing testosterone to work. Too much testosterone in a woman can lead to cancer and other biological problems.

Doctor Thunder
09-10-2006, 03:28
I must say, this poll has been very helpful so far. What surprises me the most is how wide of a spread we're getting. I was expecting only a couple of the options to get the majority of the votes, but the spread is much wider then I expected, although there are some obvious favorites.

What that leads me to conclude, tenatively, is that the way to appeal to the widest range of players would be to write the fluff and present it from the Valkyries point of view instead of an omnicient narrator. Usually, members of a secret army have little to no information given to them as a precauion against leaks. We could expand on that and widen the conspiracy theory angle, so that the Valkyries themselves have no way to know if what they have been told by their masters is correct or not. By presenting the fluff that way, it makes it possible that the Valkyries really are unearthing a dark plot begun by Guillman, but also equally possible that Guillman's plot is simply a story fed to them by their masters to mask the true origins of their geneseed. This allows us to hint at several possible sources for their geneseed without concretely chosing one, allowing each reader to fill in the blank with their favorite option, thus increasing the likelihood for a nod of approval.
It is also a distinctly GW style of fluff-writing where little is concretly stated and only a plethora of possibilities is hinted at.

Sarge
09-10-2006, 04:17
Yeah, but o so hated by the players.

Hellebore
09-10-2006, 05:15
You could go the gland warrior path.

The admech are always mucking around with regiments of troopers, giving them glands that secret combat drugs, altering their bodies etc.

Or, you could go for female ogryns in power armour :eek:

In reality, a space marine isn't much smaller than an ogryn (8 feet) so an ogryn in power armour would be the same as a space marine.


I believe the reason the implants only work in males, is because they were designed to work with male puberty, which runs on completely DIFFERENT hormone levels AND responses.

A female going through puberty is a MUCH different chemical proposition than a male, and they only designed the organs to interact with male pubertal chemistry.

Hellebore

Sarge
09-10-2006, 07:18
Yeah, female ogryn just sounds wrong... I know it's most likely possible... but so wrong...

Doctor Thunder
09-10-2006, 15:43
Okay, here's what I wrote out. I think it turned out perfectly, but I am open to suggestions. When you read it, set aside what you know about the Valkyries already and look at it as if you're reading about them for the first time.



“Long ago, before the Badab Uprising, our worlds in the Eden’s Belt were lush and green,” Lieutenant Caren shouted to the kneeling recruits as she strode past them. “Our tribes were proud and strong.”
She paused for effect, placing one hand on her hip, the morning sun glistening off the sleek and lithe armored suit she wore. “Marines on both sides deployed atomics and virals without any thought, and now our people crawl in the dust on their bellies.”
Caren stepped back and saluted as Captain Kalia stepped forward. Though her hair was accented with strands of grey, and her skin was weathered from the suns of a hundred worlds, her eyes shone bright like daggers. “The sons of The Emperor destroy without thought and without accountability. Through the grace of the Omnissiah, we are sent to account for their sins, avenge the suffering of our people, and make our worlds green again.”
Kalia stepped aside, revealing in the distance several chained Pterra-Raptors, and a single warrior in scoured power armor, his hands and feet bound.
“With every marine you kill, life is breathed into our homelands,” Kalia shouted.
With a roar like lions, the recruits leapt to their feet and ran towards their targets. Caren and Kalia watched intently as the chains on the beasts and marine broke free. The mass of bodies collided, knives and teeth attacking in a swirl of rage and instinct. One of the recruits singled out a pair of two Raptors, throwing her dagger into the thigh of one of them. When its companion caught the scent of blood, it went into a frenzy and leapt upon its injured kin, the two animals tearing each other to pieces.
“That one,” Captain Kalia said, pointing her out, “Mark her for officer training.”
“But she bends the rules of the trial,” Caren questioned.
“Stop thinking like a man,” Kalia rebuked, spitting. “Possessing strength is incidental. What is important is to control strength. See how she turned her enemies against one another, defeating both with a single throw? One who controls the strength of others does not create enemies with victory, nor suffer losses with defeat.”
“Yes, Madam Captain.”
One of the Raptors leapt on top of a recruit, its metallic talons piercing the armored chestplate of her armor and tearing open her torso in a spray of thick black blood. The moment her hearts stopped beating, the small device implanted in the base of her skull detonated, shredding her brain.
Watching this, Kalia involuntarily tilted her head to one side, feeling the weight of her own implant at the base of her skull. The implant kept their secret safe. Insured that anyone recovering their corpse would not be able to glean anything from their remains. They also served as a reminder that their master could detonate the devices at any time.
The last of the Raptors fell, a dagger deftly shoved into the roof of it’s mouth and out the top of its head, and the remaining recruits fell upon the marine, screaming and stabbing his body long after he stopped moving, then forcing open his armor and tearing apart his flesh with their armored hands, tossing his entrails about like pieces of confetti.
“Once they have tasted marine blood, they can think of nothing else,” Kalia commented as she watched. “It was the same with me when I first passed the trial.”
Caren took out a data-slate and began giving instructions to the descending dropships. “Hate is a source of strength. An endless well which can be drawn upon whenever needed.”
Captain Kalia’s eyes narrowed and her lips pursed disapprovingly. “By the time our recruits are brought to us, their surgical transformation has already been completed. All of them reporting the same background. All of them screened to insure a complete lack of psychic intuition.”
“The Fabricator General insures the purity of our order,” Caren commented as she worked.
“And yet most Astartes deploy Psykers in their ranks, and oversee the implantation of new recruits themselves.”
“If our geneseed was like theirs, we would share in their sins,” Caren responded, putting her slate away.
“So we are told,” Kalia said sternly.
The air around them became a gale as the dropship touched down. Dozens of mechanical servitors walked down the descending ramps. In their hands they carried the glowing energy cores that would power the weapons of the remaining recruits.
“How safe do you suppose those cores are?” Kalia asked as she watched the servitors insert the cores into the various weapons.
“The Fabricator General assures us they are perfectly safe,” Caren stated.
“And yet male Astartes live many times longer then we do,” Kalia observed.
“A quirk of our geneseed,” Caren mentioned as she walked up to meet the remaining recruits, their eyes now glazed over with hate and euphoria.
“So we are told,” Kalia said to herself.
Solemnly, Leiutenant Caren gave each of the recruits their beam rifles, and instructed them on the maintenance and use of the weapons. Each squad’s weapons were hand-crafted by a single master-artificer, the task consuming the majority of his lifespan. Properly maintained, they could be used for years without any need for reloading or re-supply, allowing them to engage their enemies in ammunition-guzzling firefights that would leave their foes completely spent before the final attack. It was the Valkyries preferred method.
“Tonight you will sit at the warrior’s table and drink our wine as equals,” Caren stated as the former recruits cheered.
As Caren completed the ceremony, Kalia found herself standing over the desecrated remains of the marine. As her eyes focused on a small patch of yellow paint on the armor, her mind flashed and images rushed past her like a storm. She found herself standing on the twisted fleshy deck of a corrupted Battle-barge. Before her, a tall warrior knelt weeping over the broken body of The Emperor, her tears falling onto the ruined flesh of his face. At the other end of the room, her twin lay dead, arms wrapped around the ashy remains of Horus. Rogal Dorn stepped forward, his handsome face twisted into a scowl of pure hatred as he drew his sword and plunged it into the woman’s back as she wept over The Emperor.
The images blew around like a sand sculpture caught in the wind, and Kalia found herself standing in the entrance of a great vault in the mouth of a cave. Outside the cave, she saw the flash of atomics as cities came apart, the screams of millions swallowed up in the heat. The voice of Roberte Guillman filled the air.
“There will be no place for your kind in my empire.”
Kalia watched as an injured female warrior dragged herself into the vault, her body secreting a protective cocoon around itself as the doors slammed shut. Then, a wave of fire washed over Kalia, and the only thing she could see was the Cog and Skull symbol on the vault door as the images faded around her and she found herself once again standing over the body of the dead marine.
I’m starting to have the visions during the day as well, Kalia thought, I don’t have much time left.
Caren ran up alongside her and saluted. “We can leave whenever you are ready, Madam Captain.”
“Have you ever been to the Eden Belt since you joined the Valkyries? Kalia asked distantly.
“No, Madam, none of us have.”
“What would we find there if we did?” Kalia asked herself.
Caren nodded, believing she understood what her Captain meant. “We have become that which we hate, but perhaps our sacrifice will be enough to cleanse us. The Ecclesiarchy believes that The Emperor can cleanse sins away.”
“The Emperor hates us,” Kalia said sharply. “That much is clear. And the Omnissiah is incapable of love. We are only a tool in his hands.”
“To be a tool is a greatest of honors,” Caren said solemnly.
“Indeed. Nevertheless, The Emperor is still our father, and so we must free him from his prison.”
Caren accepted this and turned on one heel towards the dropship.
“Wait,” Kalia bade, “If you are to succeed me, you deserve to know more. Our master tells me the Astronomicon is failing.”
“What?”
“Every year the choir’s requirements grow greater, and the range weaker. By the end of the century there will be no warp travel to the outer districts. The Emperor can no longer shape the beacon.”
“He was never meant to sit on the Golden Throne,” Caren stated, “once he is freed from it he can be reborn into a new body and lead the Imperium once again. He would have been reborn long ago, but Guillman wanted the throne for himself, so he bound The Emperor to his dying body and took control.”
“So we are told,” Kalia responded softly.
Lieutenant Caren grew visibly frustrated and put her hands on her hips.
“Just what are you implying, Captain? Guillman and Dorn destroyed two of their own legions when they threatened to expose their plans to imprison The Emperor, and then had the records completely destroyed to hide their sin. If that were not true, then where does our geneseed come from? Who could make such a thing?”
“Who, indeed.” Kalia said coolly as she bought her hand up to her temple. Her eyes scanned back and forth between closed lids for a moment, then she looked up.
“Our master calls. We move out for the Verte System,” Kalia said as she spun around and began walking towards the dropship.
“Madame Captain,” Caren called out, “I don’t understand. Why do you always refer to him as ‘our master,’ and not ‘The Fabricator General of Mars?’”
Kalia paused for a moment, then ascended the ramp into the dropship.

fracas
09-10-2006, 16:21
What that leads me to conclude, tenatively, is that the way to appeal to the widest range of players would be to write the fluff and present it from the Valkyries point of view instead of an omnicient narrator. Usually, members of a secret army have little to no information given to them as a precauion against leaks. We could expand on that and widen the conspiracy theory angle, so that the Valkyries themselves have no way to know if what they have been told by their masters is correct or not. By presenting the fluff that way, it makes it possible that the Valkyries really are unearthing a dark plot begun by Guillman, but also equally possible that Guillman's plot is simply a story fed to them by their masters to mask the true origins of their geneseed. This allows us to hint at several possible sources for their geneseed without concretely chosing one, allowing each reader to fill in the blank with their favorite option, thus increasing the likelihood for a nod of approval.
It is also a distinctly GW style of fluff-writing where little is concretly stated and only a plethora of possibilities is hinted at.

or simply just go with what you like best

Doctor Thunder
09-10-2006, 16:33
or simply just go with what you like best

That's an excellent point. In this case I'm hoping I can do both. If you read the new fluff, it's basically the same thing, it's just presented in a different way.

Axel
09-10-2006, 17:58
This idea I hate with a passion. The Imperium hates women warriors more than it hates Chaos? No way.

Not the women warriors, but the IDEA that women can be Space Marines. That can upset society more then any Chaos incursion.
And, on another note: do you have ANY other idea what can be so worse that these two chapters were deleted totally, while those falling to Chaos remain listed?

And, as Doctor Thunder can probably confirm, there are many Imperial Players out there who DO hate the idea of female SM with the very passion that they would do anything to get rid of that idea, including to strike them from the lists :)

Good fluff, DT. Just keep it on...

starlight
09-10-2006, 19:51
Pop quiz time!


The real reason for the two deleted Legions? (they weren't Chapters at that point:p)

a) reference to the lost/deleted Roman Legions
b) future flexibility
c) to keep gamers guessing/debating/discussing
d) all of the above

Answer:

d) all of the above

Come on people, GW doesn't have some secret plan to spring an answer on us at some point in the future.:rolleyes: Those Legions are *staying* lost.:eyebrows: Anything else that GW wants to introduce can be done with Successor Chapters or Chaos Legions - without involving the missing Legions. Look what they've done with the 13th Company of the Space Wolves, the Lost and the Damned and others.

Don't expect an answer. Ever.

And that's the way it should be.:p

Kegluneq
09-10-2006, 21:05
Not the women warriors, but the IDEA that women can be Space Marines. That can upset society more then any Chaos incursion.
Not buying that still, sorry. It's like saying the imperium is threatened by the thought of men having babies - it's a non issue.

I'm a lot happier with DT's fluff now, especially now their origins and patron are ambiguous. I could easily have my own interpretation of them when playing - everyone is happy!

scwolf
09-10-2006, 23:39
Not buying that still, sorry. It's like saying the imperium is threatened by the thought of men having babies - it's a non issue.


Ah, but Space Marines are not men, they're enhanced superbeings made using secret techniques from the dark ages of technology. If they came in male and female varieties, there's always that chance that those implanted enhancements could start breeding true, and then what do you have? A brand new species that could very well eclipse mankind itself. (Note that this doesn't have to actually be possible, the general populace just has to think that it's possible, for the fear, uncertainty and doubt to set in.)

In theory, it's not a problem so long as this new species is 100% loyal and subservient to the Empire of Mankind, but Horus threw a big kink in that.

Kegluneq
10-10-2006, 00:32
I think it's possible that that's why they were just all made male to begin with, but the more likely argument against Marines being able to parent other Marines lies in the geneseed itself. It activates the organs - but is an implant itself. Only the Primarchs then are 'Marines' at the basic genetic level.

Besides, Marines are a mystery to most of the Imperium anyway. Off the recruitment worlds, I suspect few citizens know where they come from anyway...

Sarge
10-10-2006, 01:53
I see much influence from fairy tales told to greek women to keep them away from the hunts, as well as the possible parallel hate of men from such anime as Vandread. Indeed an interesting idea, but to destroy their skull would not stop the enemy from discovering their secret, it would only waste the geneseed at the base of the neck.

Instead, I would offer a much more bonded faction (as most SM factions are taught "If one gives their life so that another may live, then they shall feast at the Emperor's table."), you can represent this by the passionate avenging blow struck against the raptor that felled a fellow sister, or perhaps the assistance the wounded would receive after the training battle. But either way it would make more since that they leave none of thier kin behind, dead or alive (also supported by current day marines).

fracas
10-10-2006, 02:54
Not the women warriors, but the IDEA that women can be Space Marines. That can upset society more then any Chaos incursion.
And, on another note: do you have ANY other idea what can be so worse that these two chapters were deleted totally, while those falling to Chaos remain listed?

if the highlords of terra felt as some do, then it makes perfect sense they were deleted from the records and allowed to die out as legions. perhaps they lost the ability to replenish these legions.

starlight
10-10-2006, 03:08
Personally I think that the two lost Legion had to have been eradicated *before* the Heresy (quite a bit before, in fact). I believe that something of this magnitude would only be done with the Emperor's direct involvement. Also, if the wholesale conversion to Chaos, massacre of almost entire Loyalist Legions and attempt to overthrow the Imperium wasn't enough to have the nine Traitor Legions deleted from the record - then what the Sam Hill would be???

Something likely went wrong with the genetic make up (maybe they weren't sterile:eek:) and the Emperor stepped in. We are left to speculate, but I don't see how the High Lords could have convinced the remaining Loyalist Marines to delete entire Legions from existence after the Heresy.

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-10-2006, 09:02
Bah, the two missing legions didn't do anything. They are just that, missing. Not some great conspiracy, just missing. Even if say the Emperor decided to delete them, you would still have the Chaos Legions know about them, as would the Eldars. So unless they never were there, they can't be missing.

Anyway, maybe it's just me, but I fail to see why the idea of female space marines would be so damaging to the Imperium. If they had them from the start it would be a simple thing to build up the myth of the space marines to incorporate that. So it would really be a non-issue if those legions were female.

As for true-breed space marines. Well, I'd doubt it. For one thing, all the changes to the body isn't likely to be good for your fertility. And second, unless there are genetic changes, the implanted organs wouldn't actually be represented in any newborns anyway. And parental leave for space marines? Doesn't seem to quite match with there rather singled-minded brain, does it?

Axel
10-10-2006, 11:02
The two "missing" legions were almost certainly deleted before the Heresy, and as thus at a time where the Emperor still had some influence on the matter. It was probably even in the early stages of the creation, for else some records on them would have been published by the Heretical marines just to spite the Imperator.

At these early stages of the creatio of Marines, the way used to make them can differ vastly from the later, trusted ways. It was probably still the experimental phase. We also have not much information on the social structures of these times, especially not on the female position in the pre-Imperial society. But deleting female orders from the list makes MORE sense then any other possible explanation, especially the one that two legions were simply LOST without any traces and records. GW will never confirm that stuff, so imho we are free to speculate here :-)

Naturally our precondition for this debate is the very existence of a female Space Marine order. They HAVE to come somewhere. DT has given a good overview on possible origins. I like the "lost order" of the above most, because the Imperator is probably the one with the best knowledge on genetical engineering, it makes sense to try out the natural reproduction capabilites (that all humans have for free) before using a time and cost-intensive artificial process, and because that neatly explains why two legions are missing. There is no indication that the backbone of Space Marine recreation was not made AFTER the first (and many other) attempt failed.
Imho, this explanation blends in nicely within the given background and even plugs some holes in it.

I can perfectly live with any other explanation, though. Some have their favourite theory on the missing legions and don`t want to upset them with some fan-crated fluff. Of course Doctor Thunder is the (next to GW) final authority on the history of his order.

Doctor Thunder
10-10-2006, 12:07
I see much influence from fairy tales told to greek women to keep them away from the hunts, as well as the possible parallel hate of men from such anime as Vandread. Indeed an interesting idea, but to destroy their skull would not stop the enemy from discovering their secret, it would only waste the geneseed at the base of the neck.

Instead, I would offer a much more bonded faction (as most SM factions are taught "If one gives their life so that another may live, then they shall feast at the Emperor's table."), you can represent this by the passionate avenging blow struck against the raptor that felled a fellow sister, or perhaps the assistance the wounded would receive after the training battle. But either way it would make more since that they leave none of thier kin behind, dead or alive (also supported by current day marines).

Excellent points. I'll add a mention of that into the final version of the text.
Actually my inspiration was the 6th day, where the bad guys can still get information from a person's brain long after they are dead. Naturally, the Valkyries have a "no woman left behind" policy, so the presence of the device in their necks is either a safety precaution against an inquisitor reading a dead brain, or a safety precaution against the Valkyries rebelling against their master.

Sarge
10-10-2006, 12:31
Never heard of an inquisitor having that ability, and I'm sure that the "none left behind" policy would ensure that there is no mind for an inquisitor to study, if that is indeed an ability available to them (which I doubt). So I see no need for such a device to maintain secerecy, ontop of which it might damage the precious organ filled with geneseed, and even threaten the all important moral.

Also if SM will fight to the death against overwhelming odds for their commander and the Emperor, than I doubt it is a saftey precaution against rebellion, or else every other SM chapter would use them. So my only problem is the crainial micro explosive.

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 12:36
The men and women of the Inquisition is taught to question, and as all know they thinks, the end justifies the means. Let us not forgett, however, that some of history's worse deeds have been committed by self-righteous.

Doctor Thunder
10-10-2006, 12:55
Here's the updated fluff. I've highlighted the changes.

“Long ago, before the Badab Uprising, our worlds in the Eden’s Belt were lush and green,” Lieutenant Caren shouted to the kneeling recruits as she strode past them. “Our tribes were proud and strong.”
She paused for effect, placing one hand on her hip, the morning sun glistening off the sleek and lithe armored suit she wore. “Marines on both sides deployed atomics and virals without any thought, and now our people crawl in the dust on their bellies.”
Caren stepped back and saluted as Captain Kalia stepped forward. Though her hair was accented with strands of grey, and her skin was weathered from the suns of a hundred worlds, her eyes shone bright like daggers. “The sons of The Emperor destroy without thought and without accountability. Through the grace of the Omnissiah, we are sent to account for their sins, avenge the suffering of our people, and make our worlds green again.”
Kalia stepped aside, revealing in the distance several chained Pterra-Raptors, and a single warrior in scoured power armor, his hands and feet bound.
“With every marine you kill, life is breathed into our homelands,” Kalia shouted.
With a roar like lions, the recruits leapt to their feet and ran towards their targets. Caren and Kalia watched intently as the chains on the beasts and marine broke free. The mass of bodies collided, knives and teeth attacking in a swirl of rage and instinct. One of the recruits singled out a pair of two Raptors, throwing her dagger into the thigh of one of them. When its companion caught the scent of blood, it went into a frenzy and leapt upon its injured kin, the two animals tearing each other to pieces.
“That one,” Captain Kalia said, pointing her out, “Mark her for officer training.”
“But she bends the rules of the trial,” Caren questioned.
“Stop thinking like a man,” Kalia rebuked, spitting. “Possessing strength is incidental. What is important is to control strength. See how she turned her enemies against one another, defeating both with a single throw? One who controls the strength of others does not create enemies with victory, nor suffer losses with defeat.”
“Yes, Madam Captain.”
One of the Raptors leapt on top of a recruit, its metallic talons piercing the armored chestplate of her armor and tearing open her torso in a spray of thick black blood. The moment her hearts stopped beating, the small device implanted in the base of her skull detonated, shredding her brain.
Watching this, Kalia involuntarily tilted her head to one side, feeling the weight of her own implant at the base of her skull. The implant kept their secrets safe, for the Inquisition had ways of retrieving data even from a long-deceased brain. It also served as a reminder that their master could detonate the devices at any time.
Enraged by the loss of their sister, the other recruits drew closer together without command, shielding the body as it was pulled away from the combat, for none that fall were ever to be left behind.
The last of the Raptors fell, a dagger deftly shoved into the roof of it’s mouth and out the top of its head, and the remaining recruits fell upon the marine, screaming and stabbing his body long after he stopped moving, then forcing open his armor and tearing apart his flesh with their armored hands, tossing his entrails about like pieces of confetti.
“Once they have tasted marine blood, they can think of nothing else,” Kalia commented as she watched. “It was the same with me when I first passed the trial.”
Karen took out a data-slate and began giving instructions to the descending dropships. “Hate is a source of strength. An endless well which can be drawn upon whenever needed.”
Captain Kalia’s eyes narrowed and her lips pursed disapprovingly. “By the time our recruits are brought to us, their surgical transformation has already been completed. All of them reporting the same background. All of them screened to insure a complete lack of psychic intuition.”
“The Fabricator General insures the purity of our order,” Caren commented as she worked.
“And yet most Astartes deploy Psykers in their ranks, and oversee the implantation of new recruits themselves.”
“If our geneseed was like theirs, we would share in their sins,” Caren responded, putting her slate away.
“So we are told,” Kalia said sternly.
The air around them became a gale as the dropship touched down. Dozens of mechanical servitors walked down the descending ramps. In their hands they carried the glowing energy cores that would power the weapons of the remaining recruits.
“How safe do you suppose those cores are?” Kalia asked as she watched the servitors insert the cores into the various weapons.
“The Fabricator General assures us they are perfectly safe,” Caren stated.
“And yet male Astartes live many times longer then we do,” Kalia observed.
“A quirk of our geneseed,” Caren mentioned as she walked up to meet the remaining recruits, their eyes now glazed over with hate and euphoria.
“So we are told,” Kalia said to herself.
Solemnly, Leiutenant Caren gave each of the recruits their beam rifles, and instructed them on the maintenance and use of the weapons. Each squad’s weapons were hand-crafted by a single master-artificer, the task consuming the majority of his lifespan. Properly maintained, they could be used for years without any need for reloading or re-supply, allowing them to engage their enemies in ammunition-guzzling firefights that would leave their foes completely spent before the final attack. It was the Valkyries preferred method.
“Tonight you will sit at the warrior’s table and drink our wine as equals,” Caren stated as the former recruits cheered.
As Karen completed the ceremony, Kalia found herself standing over the desecrated remains of the marine. As her eyes focused on a small patch of yellow paint on the armor, her mind flashed and images rushed past her like a storm. She found herself standing on the twisted fleshy deck of a corrupted Battle-barge. Before her, a tall warrior knelt weeping over the broken body of The Emperor, her tears falling onto the ruined flesh of his face. At the other end of the room, her twin lay dead, arms wrapped around the ashy remains of Horus. A giant in burning yellow amour stepped forward, his handsome face twisted into a scowl of pure hatred as he drew his sword and plunged it into the woman’s back as she wept over The Emperor.
The images blew around like a sand sculpture caught in the wind, and Kalia found herself standing in the entrance of a great vault in the mouth of a cave. Outside the cave, she saw the flash of atomics as cities came apart, the screams of millions swallowed up in the heat. The noble voice of a towering, blue armored warrior filled the air.
“There will be no place for your kind in my empire.”
Kalia watched as an injured female warrior dragged herself into the vault, her body secreting a protective cocoon around itself as the doors slammed shut. Then, a wave of fire washed over Kalia, and the only thing she could see was the Cog and Skull symbol on the vault door as the images faded around her and she found herself once again standing over the body of the dead marine.
I’m starting to have the visions during the day as well, Kalia thought, I don’t have much time left.
Caren ran up alongside her and saluted. “We can leave whenever you are ready, Madam Captain.”
“Have you ever been to the Eden Belt since you joined the Valkyries? Kalia asked distantly.
“No, Madam, none of us have.”
“What would we find there if we did?” Kalia asked herself.
Caren nodded, believing she understood what her Captain meant. “We have become that which we hate, but perhaps our sacrifice will be enough to cleanse us. The Ecclesiarchy believes that The Emperor can cleanse sins away.”
“The Emperor hates us,” Kalia said sharply. “That much is clear. And the Omnissiah is incapable of love. We are only a tool in his hands.”
“To be a tool is a greatest of honors,” Caren said solemnly.
“Indeed. Nevertheless, The Emperor is still our father, and so we must free him from his prison.”
Caren accepted this and turned on one heel towards the dropship.
“Wait,” Kalia bade, “If you are to succeed me, you deserve to know more. Our master tells me the Astronomicon is failing.”
“What?”
“Every year the choir’s requirements grow greater, and the range weaker. By the end of the century there will be no warp travel to the outer districts. The Emperor can no longer shape the beacon.”
“He was never meant to sit on the Golden Throne,” Caren stated, “once he is freed from it he can be reborn into a new body and lead the Imperium once again. He would have been reborn long ago, but Guillman wanted the throne for himself, so he bound The Emperor to his dying body and took control.”
“So we are told,” Kalia responded softly.
Lieutenant Caren grew visibly frustrated and put her hands on her hips.
“Just what are you implying, Captain? Guillman and Dorn destroyed two loyal legions when they threatened to expose their plans to imprison The Emperor, and then had the records completely destroyed to hide their sin. If that were not true, then where does our geneseed come from? Who could make such a thing?”
“Who, indeed.” Kalia said coolly as she bought her hand up to her temple. Her eyes scanned back and forth between closed lids for a moment, then she looked up.
“Our master calls. We move out for the Verte System,” Kalia said as she spun around and began walking towards the dropship.
Caren brushed a strand of hair away from her youthful face. “You always refer to him as ‘our master,’ instead of ‘The Fabricator General of Mars,’” she complained as she followed her Captain.




Also if SM will fight to the death against overwhelming odds for their commander and the Emperor, than I doubt it is a saftey precaution against rebellion, or else every other SM chapter would use them. So my only problem is the crainial micro explosive.
That's a good point. With the mental conditioning one should be able to trust space marines against rebellion, but we both know that many marines have rebelled many times.

Like most things in the text, the cranial explosive is designed to make the reader ask questions. Why would such a device be used, and why would it be necessary? Why would they risk damage to the progenoid glands?

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 13:03
Adeptus Astartes chapters have rebelled because of the most basic creature errors in history; misunderstanding, intolerance and impatience towards understanding each other.

Kegluneq
10-10-2006, 14:47
Wait, is it definitely the Fabricator General who is the patron in your fluff, DT? That I don't agree with, and would prefer it to be more ambiguous. The Fabricator general, and by extension the AdMech, are an important part of the Imperium. The idea of agents having their own agendas seperate to the Imperium has been explored in fluff before, but not right to the very top, at least since the Heresy... As the FG's ace-in-the-hole they may serve a purpose, but that wouldnt explain why they're all female.

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 19:49
A planet far out in the Eastern Fringe with matriarchal culture, isolated since the Age of Strife by occasionally returning warp storms, the 'space marines armour' being inspired by something they've seen in a pict movie that a xenos trader once showed them, unique technology. That's another option.

Paddy
10-10-2006, 20:27
Also, if the wholesale conversion to Chaos, massacre of almost entire Loyalist Legions and attempt to overthrow the Imperium wasn't enough to have the nine Traitor Legions deleted from the record - then what the Sam Hill would be???


Perhaps they weren't based on humans, but friendly Xenos!!!! The early days of the Imperium required massive armies, and doctrine was more flexible "then" than "now". But such a fact could never become known, and the sullying of the Marines enhancements by placing them in the alien would be enough for even the Traitor Legions to remove all record of the event.

Kegluneq
10-10-2006, 20:35
Or they were all simply abhuman, with extra limbs and so forth. A much more likely reason for their absence than being female...

Doctor Thunder
11-10-2006, 01:09
Wait, is it definitely the Fabricator General who is the patron in your fluff, DT? That I don't agree with, and would prefer it to be more ambiguous .

It is ambiguous. That's why Kalia won't call him the Fabricator General, because she's not sure that's who he really is.

Axel
11-10-2006, 01:57
Perhaps they weren't based on humans, but friendly Xenos!!!!

Exactly my point. Females...
:angel:

Sarge
11-10-2006, 03:04
Not bad, but instead of implying the Imperium have some means to extract memories, you could have that be one of their many conspiracies.

Give them a sense of sisterhood, not only toward the dead, but the living and wounded as well, I'd like to see some more sisters defending eachother and risking life and limb for eachother, alive as well as dead. As for that lone wounded soilder at the end sounds so lonely it makes me want to cry, maybe a few more wounded sisters and another handful helping them on their way would make them sound far more attatched to their battle sisters.

After all those you fight and risk life limb with soon become closer than any freind you might have had before.