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skyfurnace
08-10-2006, 02:24
Well, today was a couple of firsts for me. I played Warhammer with the 7th Edition rules for the first time, and I played an Ogre Kingdoms army for the first time today.

I like the new rules. Not a whole lot seems to have changed, really... although miscasts are just really, really nasty.

As for the Ogres, well, I'd have to say that while I didn't get completely slaughtered, I'm really not too impressed with them.

Now granted, I probably need to play around with my list a bit, and I'm pretty sure that there are some fatty units that I could cut away for the sake of some more red meat - like more Bulls and Ironguts and less Yhetees and Leadbelchers - but if you're supposed to draw an opinion based on first impressions with an army, I'm just really NOT impressed.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of finesse at all with Ogres. No REAL strategy to speak of, either. Line 'em up, march as far as you can, hope that you don't lose too many Ogres to shooting or magic and that you can bust down the lines of the enemy before they outflank you.

That's pretty much it.

So I played against a fairly shooty army of Dwarfs (draw), an Orks & Goblins army (loss), and an army of Tomb Kings (loss). Perhaps the odds were just kind of against me... although I did manage to inflict some pretty serious damage against all three armies before the rounds were called and VPs were counted up.

I guess I just expected a little more from the army than they were really suited to. I dunno.

I can't say that I'm a fan. I might try a couple of more practice games and see if I can get a better feel for a couple of alternate setups.

Anyone else see the Ogres as a pretty metiocre army, all things being equal?

vorac
08-10-2006, 02:54
the problems with the ogres are their lack of WS and armor, not to mention they are high cost and have no static combat resolution, if you roll bad then you get squashed, lets face it naked troops at toughness 4 isn't too impressive and fear is only good when you outnumber and ogres seldom do, i think it's all about attacking the front with gnoblars and the flanks with ogres.

TheWarSmith
08-10-2006, 03:24
ogres aren't the easiest army to play. They can be point and smash like you said, but picking and choosing charges can be the way to go too.

As said, their fear isn't always a breaking factor like it is for zombies/skellies, but when they have 3-5 in combat, it can be for some smaller units. The fear really comes into account when units want to charge them and when you charge and they fail, letting them hit only on 6s.

the yhetees are more useful to position flank charges to deny static combat resolution. They can do this well with their increased movement and ability to go through difficult terrain.

GAWD
08-10-2006, 15:22
I've been playing Ogres since the book came out. Put simply, Ogre armies are definitely NOT a point and charge army. Ogres are a finesse army, and the tactics for getting them to work well take a while to develop (kinda like elf armies).

www.ogrestronghold.com

MadJackMcJack
08-10-2006, 15:45
Fear is extremely useful for ogres, because it gives them a greater chance of getting the charge, and ogres, more then any other race, need the charge, because they have impact hits in place of static resolution. A failed charge due to fear lets you counter-charge in your turn and dish out the pain.

Dosadi
08-10-2006, 15:54
GAWD, I think you nailed it. Too many people dismiss the "thug" armies as point and click when infact they require a certain ammount of finesse to use. It's like OrKs in 40k. People think that because they excell in HtH that you should just "line 'em up" and charge. The people can't figure out why they always loose with said army and then blame the list 'cause they can't see past the obvious tactic of "git'em'in'der!". The only army in the game (fantasy) that really requires a point and charge style of play are Bretonnians and even they have some finesse options. If you are very obvious about what you are doing an experienced player will see it comming and counteract it fast. You got to be sneeky like my Gobbos...dems 'lil buggerz is ded tricksy!
I haven't played too many games against orges but looking at their army list I would think using Gnoblars as bait would be tactic #1. This way you can redirect the opponents forces and hit 'em in the flank where your bulls lack of static rank bonus doesn't matter. After your gnoblars have broke or been flattened you can use a second line of bulls or ironguts for the counter charge. But really I don't know $#!7 about ogres. Now Orc & Goblins...that's another story.

Dosadi

SpoinkX12
08-10-2006, 16:15
the problems with the ogres are their lack of WS and armor, not to mention they are high cost and have no static combat resolution, if you roll bad then you get squashed, lets face it naked troops at toughness 4 isn't too impressive and fear is only good when you outnumber and ogres seldom do, i think it's all about attacking the front with gnoblars and the flanks with ogres.

Front with gnoblars and flanks with ogres is a viable tactic, however multi-attack units will crush that by sheer volume of wounds.

Also, to make up for the combat res, ogres get the impact hits. MAKE SURE YOU GET IMPACT HITS. A lot of tacticians will simply march forward 2" away if they see a charge coming, to negate your impact hits. DON'T LET THAT HAPPEN. I've noticed I am only heavily successful with my ogres if I think ahead two or three turns.

TheWarSmith
08-10-2006, 16:24
whoa whoa! Bretonnians are not simply point and click. If you point and click a bretonnian force, you'll lose 9/10 of the time. It takes a LOT of finesse to position the charges correctly.

but what people are saying about ogres is true. I picked them up in the beginning and hated them cause I just couldn't get my head around the tactics.

Hragged
08-10-2006, 16:27
Ogre Kingdoms armies perform a lot better when you focus on MSU style play (especially so in 7th edition). From my experience at the Stronghold, just blindly rushing forward is usually the downfall of many beginner Ogre players.
To be honest the Ogre Kingdoms army isn't the easiest to get to grips with from the start, and it's a lot more balanced than most armies and far less open to abuse. There is most definitely a steep learning curve and there is more to them than meets the eye, so I wouldn't rule them out after a few initial failed attempts to make them work for you.

Dragonknight31
08-10-2006, 17:12
I to am a new Ogre player yet my experience is vastly different. I have seen a lot of success with the army. I basically move my units up and flank with my Hunter, Leadbelchers, and Giant.

I use Leadbelchers, 2 units of 2 and they have been real good for me. Against armies with longer charge ranges I do the bait and switch by fleeing from charges with my lead units, then counter charge. With the new 7th edition rules I can usually pop into a couple of units like this.

Again, I have seen a lot of success against Chaos so far in our league.

Elannion
08-10-2006, 17:28
I think some parts of the ogre army seem very interesting, however i would say alot of the other parts do seem quite dull. I can see why in some ways you would be unimpressed by them because, they do seem to lack alot of the ability to play certain stylish ways like other armys (mainly through the lack of variety and different troop types), however there are options that you can do just not so obvious.


The only army in the game (fantasy) that really requires a point and charge style of play are Bretonnians and even they have some finesse options.

I am sorry but i am going to have to disagree with you there, ogres are far more 'point of click' than even bretonnians (though i am not saying either of them are)

Varath- Lord Impaler
09-10-2006, 00:03
well they are point and click because of the low model count.

Have you ever played a 500 point game against ogres? Its very easy.

The lack of seperate units makes the army hard to use with any finesse.

Also...finesse? THEYRE OGRES? its not like they have compulsary ballet and aerobics classes in the kindom.

Baindread
09-10-2006, 00:11
I played a 2000 pts game today with Skrag and 6 gorgers, some maneaters, bulls and ironguts against a regular Lizardmen-player. On turn two, the maneaters with Skrag were wiped out, with me having killed 8 skinks and lost an entire bull unit of 4 to Salamander fire.

It was boring so I quit.

This was the last time I try to get this crappy army to work,damnit! :angel:

Granted, Skrag died due to his frenzy. A lousy half inch wrong.

druchii
09-10-2006, 01:29
I played a 2000 pts game today with Skrag and 6 gorgers, some maneaters, bulls and ironguts against a regular Lizardmen-player. On turn two, the maneaters with Skrag were wiped out, with me having killed 8 skinks and lost an entire bull unit of 4 to Salamander fire.

It was boring so I quit.

This was the last time I try to get this crappy army to work,damnit! :angel:

Granted, Skrag died due to his frenzy. A lousy half inch wrong.

I'm sorry, how does using a Skrag army relate back to the basic utilizations of an OK army?

The skrag army is quite different from a normal OK army.

The OK army is an army filled with large, ugly, mean monsters. But they will still get stomped by the majority of "big" units. While only a few opposing units can stand to take a charge from the bulls, there aren't ANY OK units that can reliably take a charge from something akin to chosen knights, or grail knights.

The best you have to hope for is Toothcracker landing on a large unit that can soak up some wounds. Ogres are, afterall, only T4! It isn't that hard to start to whittle a typical bull unit down, and unlike most rank and file units(with 20 some models) once an ogres perishes, your attacks/frontage decrease drastically.

With the best save in the army being a basic 5+, you won't see many ogres swatting back once they get charged. And they WILL get charged.

Unless you learn the good 'ol bait and flee or bait and flank moves. "Overextend" a unit of gnoblars, and throw it's frontage at an odd angle. Let the badguy run into the weedy runts. He's got two choices now, sit still and get charged. Or overrun, and get charged.

I cannot stand how people assume that ogres are a "point and click" army, because that's just the sort of mentality that gets them killed in the first place!

d

Varath- Lord Impaler
09-10-2006, 01:37
Well i think ogres do have some good chances against the hammer units like Grail Knights and chosen.

Some obvious ones include:

Longstrider characters with Cathayan longswords
Gorgers
Lots of runts
Regenerating Ironguts
Scrap launcher

all of these have nasty abilities which could offset the power of the enemy units. You need to be a competent player so you can outmanouvre the enemy with your ogres though.

Tutore
09-10-2006, 08:25
I'm an Ogre newbie (always used high elves) and find them difficult to use because I have to study the tactics. I found the gnoblars very useful tough. Yeethee are unuseful to me, so are giants. I think a couple of units have to be supported by charachters with the catayan sword and some magic thing. I think Avian's tactics are worth trying.

Avian
09-10-2006, 11:48
I think Avian's tactics are worth trying.
And in case you are wondering, he is referring to this:
Ogre Tactics Page (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/ogre_index.php)

Anyway, an ogre army is like a sledge hammer. Big, heavy and rather simple. People might think it requires no thought to use, and if the enemy simply stands there and lets you hit him on the head then it is indeed simple. However, most people will not let you do this, and it takes quite a lot of skill to fight with a sledge hammer against an opponent who ducks or tries to defend himself.

Kadrium
09-10-2006, 14:01
Tactics change heavily for ogres depending on the army you're playing against.

For armies like Brets, you're going to have to bait heavily with gnoblars. Just because you CAN move 12 inches on the march dosn't mean you always SHOULD. Move your bulls up 10 inches, and your gnoblars up 8. Most people won't pay attention to exactly how far you moved, and assume you're just charging your bulls in at full speed. Next round, backtrack a few inches with the bulls and curl the gnoblars around front. If your opponent is playing a lot of errants to counteract your fear, they'll get sucked in by your gnoblars and be forced to charge. If you advace your gnoblars at an angle while your bulls pull back, you can either have the gnoblars flee from the charge and make the knights stall out right in your sights, or see if the li'l guys can take the charge and force the knights to base up at a heavy angle, exposing those long long tasty flanks the lances always have.

Skullmantle and braingobbler are your friend against the brets, or anyone with questionable leadership.

Bonecruncher is underrated.

Ironguts are overrated.

Leadbelchers rock in units of two.

DO WHAT IT TAKES TO GET THE CHARGE. On the charge you win. Off the charge you lose.

This IS a finesse army. You move up 12 inches straight forward every turn, you lose.

Tutore
10-10-2006, 04:44
And in case you are wondering, he is referring to this:
Ogre Tactics Page (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/ogre_index.php)

Anyway, an ogre army is like a sledge hammer. Big, heavy and rather simple. People might think it requires no thought to use, and if the enemy simply stands there and lets you hit him on the head then it is indeed simple. However, most people will not let you do this, and it takes quite a lot of skill to fight with a sledge hammer against an opponent who ducks or tries to defend himself.


Reading your articles is always worth the time spent.

skyfurnace
10-10-2006, 04:54
And in case you are wondering, he is referring to this:
Ogre Tactics Page (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/ogre_index.php)

Anyway, an ogre army is like a sledge hammer. Big, heavy and rather simple. People might think it requires no thought to use, and if the enemy simply stands there and lets you hit him on the head then it is indeed simple. However, most people will not let you do this, and it takes quite a lot of skill to fight with a sledge hammer against an opponent who ducks or tries to defend himself.

Thanks for the link! I'll DEFINITELY check it out, as I'll be using these Ogres until my Greenskins are battle-ready... so I might as well get better at using them. I'll take any help that I can get towards that endeavor. :D