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Anthony Case
08-10-2006, 18:42
In the novels out there, or perhaps based on more official material, which of the lasgun or autogun has the greater armour penetration? I've heard a couple of people say that in the novels lasguns can easily pierce flak, but looking at the Inquisitor rules autoguns cause greater damage. Since some BL novels tend to exaggerate things a touch sometimes, is there is a consensus among the more fluff knowledgeable peeps here?

The reason I ask is that currently in Necromunda the lasgun has a -1 Save Modifier (the same as the boltgun) while the autogun has nothing, so I'm curious to know how accurate this is in relation to current fluff.

harlequin21
08-10-2006, 18:49
inquisitor autoguns do more damage as the inquisitor rules system is alot more detailed as compared to 40k rules system which is more abstract regarding weapons. i'd say the necromunda autogun doesn't have the modifier cause of round quality? while the las-gun is a standard power proportion.
the necromunda part is just speculation on my part though

Inq. Veltane
08-10-2006, 21:05
In the novels (Abnett at least) the lasgun is by far the superior weapon. I guess really it would depend on the autogun in question because the term 'autogun' covers every single rifle which fires solid amunition. Of course Inquisitor throws a spanner in the works by making autoguns better (I guess otherwise everyone would have lasguns?) but I'd say that they are 'good' autoguns whilst standard ones will often be inferior to a lasgun.

CELS
08-10-2006, 22:06
The common view in the fluff is that lasguns are better. Slug-throwers like autoguns, stubbers, etc. are generally cheaper and do less damage.

Kage2020
08-10-2006, 22:15
It all depends on how you model these things. For me, I view the lasgun as having ultimately more damage potential (more dice rolled, as it were), but the autogun has far more options...

If desired, I'll provide numbers.

Kage

Khaine's Messenger
08-10-2006, 22:26
In the novels out there, or perhaps based on more official material, which of the lasgun or autogun has the greater armour penetration?

The main difference is in the fact that lasweapons can be "dialed up" (hotshot packs, Triplex patterns, etc.) and ballistics can be fed different ammo types (as today). In terms of the abstract, I really have no idea.

Dyrnwyn
08-10-2006, 22:36
I think Inquisitor has the right of it; autoguns have slightly better penetration, but lasguns are the more common weapon for ease of accquiring ammo and mantainence purposes.

Gen.Steiner
08-10-2006, 23:28
Autoguns can potentially fire caseless DU-tipped SABOT armour-piercing ammunition... and a lasergun is, well, a laser.

For armour piercing, then you get an autogun firing a specialist AP round.

For versatility and reliability, you get a lasrifle.

In 2nd Edition, lasrifles got no armour save modifier IIRC. Autoguns did (-1 to the armour save). Lasrifles, however, were more accurate and - I think - slightly stronger.

Kage2020
09-10-2006, 00:07
Is it really useful to consider the wargame rules as a means of determining "real life" effects, though? I know that we "have" to work with the established material, but one also has to acknowledge the limitations of said material..

Kage

Xisor
09-10-2006, 02:02
I view them as typically equal. When you 'Hotshot' a Lasgun though, to match it: you'd need really need ammo for an autogun (this is essentially representative of the varying tech levels, a Lasgun being vastly superior technically to an autogun).

An Autogun is almost a multiple shot weapon. A Lasgun, on the otherhand, is often a single shot weapon. (ie each pull of the trigger fire's one lasblast).

Assuming parity in relative quality, Lasguns and Autoguns are roughly/essentially equal in damage capacity terms, I'd say. In terms of true effectiveness though I'd suggest that Lasguns win out. PDF have Autoguns, IG have lasguns is how I view it. Of course, there's a ton of exceptions, but generally the PDF get the technically inferior equipment...but this isn't yet represented in Inquisitor(no noted recharge times for Lasgun cells, for instance).

Lasguns, thanks to a lack of 'moving parts' are more reliable and ubiquoutous, so I'd again forward that the IG get 'em because they're reliable.

Lancer
09-10-2006, 02:09
Autoguns have superior armor penetration, but at the expense of ammo capacity. For example, the M40 Armageddon pattern autogun featured in the main rulebook only has a 12 round box magazine.

Outlaw289
09-10-2006, 03:17
Autoguns have superior armor penetration, but at the expense of ammo capacity. For example, the M40 Armageddon pattern autogun featured in the main rulebook only has a 12 round box magazine.

That has to be a screwup. No self-respecting self-loading rifle past the 1950s would have only 12 rounds to a magazine.

Hellebore
09-10-2006, 04:45
The way in which damage works in Inquisitor is a screw-up.

Heh, heh. The mighty space marine 'plasma fist':p

If you want to look at it realistically, just look at their damage physics.

Lasguns have no real kinetic energy - light being virtually massless. Thus it relies entirely on energy transfer, or heat damage.

Autoguns rely entirely on kinetic energy.

The amount of damage done to naked flesh would be fairly equal, except that a lasgun shot would probably be less repairable, as it vaporises the target point, rather than tearing a hole through it like an autogun would.

Against armour/equipment, I believe that kinetics would probably win. It takes ALOT of heat to cause a phase transition in most materials - we can build suits that allow us to stand next to 1200C lava.

It's easier to break bonds (normally) than it is to energise the material to its next phase. It simply requires less energy.

Thus a lasgun hitting a flak vest that had even a little bit of heat resistant material in it (like aspestos) would require a HUGE amount of heat energy to burn through it, let alone hit the person wearing it.

A bullet merely has to have a higher acceleration.

The only reason lasgun would be more common is ease of use and manufacture. With fusion reactors running hives, just plugging a powerpack into a power point is enough to recharge it, rather than having to make casings, bullets, and powder.

A lasgun is a consumer weapon, an autogun a connoisseur's.

Hellebore

Hellebore
09-10-2006, 05:53
Unless you're transferring large amounts of energy in small amounts of time. Some femto-second lasing devices don't cause heating, for example, and simply disintegrate whatever material they are turned on.

Interesting. How do they do that? Wouldn't they need to break the bonds between the atoms? Or energise them until they shoot away from each other?

Hellebore

Llothlian
09-10-2006, 07:18
Lasguns would have far greater armour penetration, due to the fact that they simply melt the armour (unless they are shooting at Ceremite armour (power armour) then solid rounds would be much better), whereas solid rounds would do a LOT more damage to flesh. A laser weapon burns a hole right the way through a body, but if you don't hit anything vital your target is pretty healthy still. A solid weapon enters the body, conpresses and drags a whole "chunk" (technical term) of flesh out with it. You dont need to hit the heart to splat it against the wall behind the target.

"Targets will get little holes in them when hit!" - Lasgun
"Targets will fall when hit!" - Solid round

Sarge
09-10-2006, 08:19
I beleive they're equal in most respects but as a laser will typically carterize a wound, it would not be as useful for causing traumatic wounds and causing infection (which can be very useful in killing the enemy).

As for their workings, a lasgun without any moving parts would be the most reliable, but given Imperial tech grade not very repairable out in the field, where as the autogun has been around for so much longer and would no doubt be much easier to repair out in the field, though not as reliable as the trusty lasgun.

As for this bull cocky about lasguns producing so much engery that they just eradicate the molecular bonds, that's laughable, first off you must consider Imperial tech grade, ontop of which you must releize how much energy could possibly be stored in a battery the size of a ammo clip. Perhaps you could get such an effect with the hellgun, perhaps not, but unless you have a mini-nuke attatched to your lasgun I doubt you're going to get the effect of an Ion cannon, because that's what you're talking about.

Something which I might remind you is far beyound Imperial tech grade, and is in fact part of the Tau Empire and Deimurg armory.

Now as for autoguns, it's basic physics, the greater the initial acceleration and the lighter the projectile the better the penetration. So to compare the two seperate armor penetration functions, and the fact the only slug weapon present in the guard to date and lasgun in 40k have the same stats, with the exceptation of their ranges and weapon types, I'd say they both suck in comparison to the pulse rifle.

So in short, Lasgun, Autogun, doesn't matter what name you give it, it's still not as powerful as they would all like you to beleive it. They each have they're benefits, and their short commings, but in the end, they both fulfill the same function with the same success rate.

Llothlian
09-10-2006, 08:26
Something which I might remind you is far beyound Imperial tech grade, and is in fact part of the Tau Empire and Deimurg armory.

The Imperium who can design and produce devices which stop siesmic activity on an instable planet? Their tech may not be on a par with Eldar and Tau, but it is certainly very far in advance of anything we can comprehend.


Now as for autoguns, it's basic physics, the greater the initial acceleration and the lighter the projectile the better the penetration.

So a pistol round has greater armour penetration than the shell from an AS90 (Artillery)?

Skrittiblak
09-10-2006, 08:54
Frankly the weapons seem fairly interchangeable. I think the key here is that both weapons come in a range of models.

The standard Mars Pattern Lasrifle of the Cadian Infantry tends to outperform a custom autorifle, but an expensive autogun acquired for an Inquisitorial storm trooper will likely outperform a Mars Pattern Lasrifle.

Obvious las-weapons have a huge range, from a lowly custom-made laspistol to the fearsome hellgun which clearly has more stopping power than contemporary auto-designs.

Also laser weapons can deliver more rounds per minute without the loss of accuracy because unlike autoguns, laser guns have no recoil.

(I wrote up a "physics explained" article on lasguns if you are interested.)

Gen.Steiner
09-10-2006, 10:46
To speak up in defence of the autorifle:

As they are caseless, then we can use the G-11 as a base for extrapolation. The G-11 can put three rounds downrange before the recoil hits the user, making it very accurate and with a silly rate of fire.

Of course, the autorifle of a low-tech PDF is probably different to the autorifle of, say, an Imperial Governor's elite guard units, or an Inquisitor's special section, or, indeed, of a high-tech PDF. Don't forget that some worlds are only just at the blackpowder stage!

The main reasons for selecting an autorifle over a lasrifle are: versatility of ammunition, and the increased likelihood of a one-shot kill, or severe injury. I'd rather have a cauterised hole through my shoulder than a bullet taking half my shoulder with it as it leaves my body through the opposite hip...

And I'll take a musket over a pulse rifle any day. Xenos tekno-magic taints and corrupts its user!

EsDawg
09-10-2006, 10:53
In 2nd Edition, lasrifles got no armour save modifier IIRC. Autoguns did (-1 to the armour save). Lasrifles, however, were more accurate and - I think - slightly stronger.
Dude lasguns had a -1 sv modifier in 2nd ed. You know why I know that? Cause I used to bitch about how my marines had a lame +4sv from them. That's why.

I'd say it's dependent on the models available. A higher caliber autogun with high end AP rounds will put the average lasgun to shame. A modded "hotshot" lasgun or better yet a hellgun will be comparable though. Lasguns are 40k's ak47 not fancy, not too powerful but completely reliable, cheap and very common.

Gen.Steiner
09-10-2006, 11:04
Dude lasguns had a -1 sv modifier in 2nd ed. You know why I know that? Cause I used to bitch about how my marines had a lame +4sv from them. That's why.

I sit corrected. *shrug*

I agree on the whole model-availiable thing tho'.

LostTemplar
09-10-2006, 11:20
I think they are fundamentally diferent devices.

Laser, depending on which game you play, is either powerfull or weak. in the general case of Warhammer 40.000, laser seems to be more powerful than slug-throwers. However, it depends on which lasers we speak of.

Firstly, in terms of wh40k, the lasgun and the autogun are, currently, equivalent. However, from there up, thing change. autocannons are comparable to Lascannons, weaker, but faster shooting, perhaps due to needing less time to acumulate energy.

The multilaser is roughtly equivalent to the Heavy Bolter, and once more, it needs large power supplies to be able to be used (Apparently that is, otherwise Guardsmen woudl be able to field it, as any other Heavy Weapon), but is generally stronger than the most powerfull bullet technology the imperium has to offer (Bolt-derived weapons). yet, there is the Assault Cannon which has no real apreciable Laser equivalent nowadays. but this is a terminator only/space marine only weapon.

So what do we see of this? That while Lasers generally are stronger, the slug-throwers usually have higher rates of fire, and expend less energy, in the field. Of course they still need ammunition to function, but these are dealt with logistics.

In terms of the current rule-set, I'd probably set the Lasgun as a Ap6 weapon, and the autogun has having an Assault 12'' mode.

Other game systems, like Inquisitor, allow for slug weapons to indeed have special rounds and other uses, but in that game, unless you think on bolt weapons, a automatic combat shotgun with the correct rounds becomes a sniper's first choice. What sense does that make?

Voronwe[MQ]
09-10-2006, 12:05
Also, lasweaponry is at their most weakest in atmosphere, as the beam is 'broken down', i.e, it loses beam integrity as it travels. I believe that this is what GW means when they say that Eldar shuriken catapults (12", A3? Haven't got their Codex here:rolleyes:) is unrifled, unlike Imperial (not ganger-produced...) lasweapons.

Sarge
09-10-2006, 12:34
And I'll take a musket over a pulse rifle any day. Xenos tekno-magic taints and corrupts its user!

Superstisious mon-keigh...

Also don't see how rifling would help las-weapons, as for the shuriken catapults, what do you expect with wraith bone?

Voronwe[MQ]
09-10-2006, 14:53
Superstisious mon-keigh...

Also don't see how rifling would help las-weapons, as for the shuriken catapults, what do you expect with wraith bone?

I meant that 'rifling' was a term that is used for construction components that prevents/lessens the beam integrity's breakdown in atmosphere (not space - the vaccuum is not a hindrance), not rifling as per traditional se.:D

Outlaw289
09-10-2006, 23:05
So a pistol round has greater armour penetration than the shell from an AS90 (Artillery)?

Pistol does not have greater initial velocity than an artillery shell, and artillery has concussive force in its favor

Hellebore
10-10-2006, 04:00
;998667']I meant that 'rifling' was a term that is used for construction components that prevents/lessens the beam integrity's breakdown in atmosphere (not space - the vaccuum is not a hindrance), not rifling as per traditional se.:D

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but Nurglitch's links describe what rifling is. Rifling only works on cylindrical projectiles. As a shuriken does not possess the shape required for rifling to actually have ANY effect on it, it would be pointless.

A shuriken weapon relies soly on gravitic induction - which is mechanically identical to electromagnetic induction along a railgun.

When an object is accelerated to % of light, it can be any shape it wants, its speed alone overrides any friction against it.

The difference betweena lasgun and tau pulse weaponry, is that pulse weaponry fires an unstable particle, that breaks down into a plasma 'pulse'.

I assume that this gives the weapon extra kinetic/concussive capacity, as the particle explodes into the target. Thus pulse weapons combine energy and kinetics in their shot, whilst lasguns rely on just the energy component.

And Sarge, I'm getting a little tired of your continuous "Tau are great - Imperium suck" attitude, it's getting a little laborious to trawl through posts which just continually say that. You don't need to big up your fanboi ideas every time you post. It seems almost all your posts consist of "the tau are the best" and little else, except how much every other race sucks.

As for an example of laser technology the Imperium has that the Tau do not - lances. Lasers mounted on battleships that cut kilometre long chunks of metal into pieces. The tau got their ion technology from the Demiurg, and they can't even mount them on their ships properly.

Almost every Imperial ship possesses lances, and the Retribution possesses lances with the longest range in any fleet (chaos ships also possess lances with this range, but then, they were originally Imperial ships...).

So when you say:



As for this bull cocky about lasguns producing so much engery that they just eradicate the molecular bonds, that's laughable, first off you must consider Imperial tech grade, ontop of which you must releize how much energy could possibly be stored in a battery the size of a ammo clip. Perhaps you could get such an effect with the hellgun, perhaps not, but unless you have a mini-nuke attatched to your lasgun I doubt you're going to get the effect of an Ion cannon, because that's what you're talking about.

Something which I might remind you is far beyound Imperial tech grade, and is in fact part of the Tau Empire and Deimurg armory.


You should really make sure its correct before you say it. Otherwise it comes out as "Tau are teh bezt!1!1!!!" Size of your clip doesn't actually have that much to do with storage capacity don't you? A tau pulse rifle clip is tiny, about the same size as a lasgun clip. And, I mean, a blackhole is TINY, and look how much storage space it has...:p

Hellebore

Sarge
10-10-2006, 04:32
You sure like to bitch and moan alot, so how about this, we agree to disagree and than ignore eachother from this point on.

As for lasguns, size of the clip does matter, why else would you have hell packs and large side mounted packs for vehicles? The simple fact is there is a limit to the energy that can be stored safetly within the laspack without causing significant detremental effects to it's storage ability. So while turning your lasgun up to 100% might sound sweet, it will most definately drain your pack faster than if it was on it's normal setting, given it does not have an infinite energy supply. Or do you have another way to explain why the laspack would be removable, and why each guardsmen would be supplied with several extra laspacks along with the rest of their equipment?

Hellebore
10-10-2006, 04:54
You sure like to bitch and moan alot, so how about this, we agree to disagree and than ignore eachother from this point on.

As for lasguns, size of the clip does matter, why else would you have hell packs and large side mounted packs for vehicles? The simple fact is there is a limit to the energy that can be stored safetly within the laspack without causing significant detremental effects to it's storage ability. So while turning your lasgun up to 100% might sound sweet, it will most definately drain your pack faster than if it was on it's normal setting, given it does not have an infinite energy supply. Or do you have another way to explain why the laspack would be removable, and why each guardsmen would be supplied with several extra laspacks along with the rest of their equipment?

It's got nothing to do with whether I like or dislike your opinions, nothing at all. It's just you continuously put them in almost every post you make. I understand how you feel about the tau, I may not agree with it, but you can think whatever you want. I don't need to read it over and over and over again everytime you post in a topic that has nothing to do with the tau.

Energy cells DO have some bearing on shots, its true, but you can't use that as the be all and end all argument.

A lasgun may drain its whole powerpack in one shot, but that one shot would be the equivalent of a pulse rifle shot in damage.

Put enough power into something, and it can obviously do more damage. The tau powerpack though, as I said, is only about the size of a lasgun clip. Thus the SIZE isn't important, it is the technology behind it.

Hellebore

Sarge
10-10-2006, 05:13
And you don't have to read my posts either, but I have a right to post my opinion, and until the God-Emperor comes and sets down the new order, I think I will state my opinion when I like.

Possibly, but given there is no way in game to represent this, I'm guessing the weapon either has a capacity equal to either an M6A1 (can't remember the designation of the SSR) when it fires on it's normal setting, which is like 20 rounds I beleive, or the equivalent capacity of a SAW (squad automatic weapon) which is a box/drum case of either 60-100 shots, which I doubt.

As for Tau "power pack" you must not know much about Tau tech because they don't have "power packs", rather they have individual slugs with an energy based propelant attatched to it. Which is effectively caseless ammunition, hence why you don't see any ejector ports.

Size of the power supply does matter as it is limited, by both material and the amount of that material. The reason they have different sized packs is so that they can more effectively supply larger weapons, so instead of having to link together a hundred or so laspacks, you just need one larger more effecient unit that can supply and retain much more energy.

It's like any batteries, yes, you can charge one battery beyound it's capacity and damage it's storage capacity in the process, while you can also have a larger unit that is not holding it's full capacity, thus resulting in a lower yeild.

As for tech grade between the Tau and the Imperium, we can have a pissing contest if you like, but it's not going to solve the fact that they Tau excell in many fields, while the Imperium retain only a few superior weapons. So in general, Tau tech out matches that of the Imperium.

Gen.Steiner
10-10-2006, 09:22
Possibly, but given there is no way in game to represent this, I'm guessing the weapon either has a capacity equal to either an M6A1 (can't remember the designation of the SSR) when it fires on it's normal setting, which is like 20 rounds I beleive, or the equivalent capacity of a SAW (squad automatic weapon) which is a box/drum case of either 60-100 shots, which I doubt.

According to the values given in Inquisitor, lasrifles carry 120 shots per pack, and laspistols carry 60. Hotshots and variable energy rifles will use up more 'shots' per, well, shot. So a Full Power blast will take 5 shots, whereas a Low Power one will use up only one shot.


As for Tau "power pack" you must not know much about Tau tech because they don't have "power packs", rather they have individual slugs with an energy based propelant attatched to it. Which is effectively caseless ammunition, hence why you don't see any ejector ports.

Where does it say this? I was under the impression from the Tau 'dex that the Tau Pulse weaponry is plasma weaponry...


As for tech grade between the Tau and the Imperium, we can have a pissing contest if you like, but it's not going to solve the fact that they Tau excell in many fields, while the Imperium retain only a few superior weapons. So in general, Tau tech out matches that of the Imperium.

Not really. Tau tech is advancing faster than the Imperium, but if you compare the best Imperial military technology to the best Tau technology... you'll find it's swings and roundabouts. :p The Imperium wins in space, horribly, but the Tau do rather better in long-range slugging matches on the ground. Then again, the Tau are crap at close quarters (they don't have power fists, for example). I mean, OK, so the Tau have AI and automatic recaf makers in their battlesuits, but ... so what? The Imperium's got a bigger industrial base - so the Imperium wins. *shrug*

Hellebore
10-10-2006, 09:59
Where does it say this? I was under the impression from the Tau 'dex that the Tau Pulse weaponry is plasma weaponry...


Yes, it's the kroot rifle that fires a charged shot. A pulse rifle fires a particle that 'breaks down' into a plasma pulse.

And the pulse rifle DOES have a power pack - it's attached bullpup style in the underside of the stock. Their backpack also contains 2 extra clips IIRC.

Hellebore

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 10:45
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but Nurglitch's links describe what rifling is. Rifling only works on cylindrical projectiles. As a shuriken does not possess the shape required for rifling to actually have ANY effect on it, it would be pointless.

A shuriken weapon relies soly on gravitic induction - which is mechanically identical to electromagnetic induction along a railgun.

When an object is accelerated to % of light, it can be any shape it wants, its speed alone overrides any friction against it.

The difference betweena lasgun and tau pulse weaponry, is that pulse weaponry fires an unstable particle, that breaks down into a plasma 'pulse'.

I assume that this gives the weapon extra kinetic/concussive capacity, as the particle explodes into the target. Thus pulse weapons combine energy and kinetics in their shot, whilst lasguns rely on just the energy component.

I meant that one should consider 'rifled' lasweapons in a metaphorical way: That the effect of the components of a lasweapon is like the conventional, cylindrical pipe (non-las) on slug projectile weapons, or at least in the way it makes the weapon better.
Interesting facts about the laser weapons, by the way.

Inquisitor Maul
10-10-2006, 11:58
As for tech grade between the Tau and the Imperium, we can have a pissing contest if you like, but it's not going to solve the fact that they Tau excell in many fields, while the Imperium retain only a few superior weapons. So in general, Tau tech out matches that of the Imperium.

I'm not going to argue here, but like Gen. Steiner and hellebore sais, Tau don't own the Imperium in technology. Sure, they advance faster in certain areas but they're not close to the peak humanity once achieved before the age of strife. And don't forget that the AM still hade many of those technologies, they're just rare as hell.

Humanity may not advance technology in any fast pace but they're not stagnant.


And hellebore do have a point, you tend to make your arguments in such a way that leave little room to argue that the Tau totaly crush the Imperium on every single field (including battles). The Tau have survived this long becasue the Imperium have bigger fishes to catch (Tyranids, 13th Black Crusade and now Necrons). The Damoucles crusade wasn't even a half-hearted atempt to whipe them out.

Kegluneq
10-10-2006, 12:37
Tau pulse rifles have both a power pack and a magazine, I believe - the latter only rarely needing to be changed. It's still a much better weapon than the lasgun on any setting, though.

Tau and Imperium technology are chalk and cheese, the requirements and abilities of each roughly comparable but with their own basic limitations. Soldier for soldier, the Tau is better equipped and better supported, but lacks the strength of the Imperium's numbers and experience. In small scale battles, the Tau can make the most of what they have, but a large scale war between the two would end only in the Imperium's favour.

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 13:01
That settled it perfectly smooth, in my opinion.

Gen.Steiner
10-10-2006, 13:17
Tau pulse rifles [are] still a much better weapon than the lasgun on any setting, though.

Oh, I completely agree - to a point. The lasrifle is much more robust, as reliable, and easier to maintain, manufacture, and recharge (I suspect).

It's not as powerful, though.

And I'd still prefer an autorifle to a lasrifle myself, but then again that's just me...

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 13:21
Recharge times for pulse rifle power packs must be at least around 2-3 hours in a mediocre light/heat. So I would prefer the lasgun or an autogun myself, although it's irrational.:D

Gen.Steiner
10-10-2006, 13:29
Actually, if I could choose any weapon, a Retribution-class Battleship would be nice...

"Ha! I have a pulse rifle!"
Voice, from vox: I took plasma lances to a gunfight. Hehehe.
*HORRIBLE AREA OBLITERATION!*

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 13:33
Or an Imperator class Battleship.

jfrazell
10-10-2006, 15:07
;1000963']Or an Imperator class Battleship.

No no no you want a Necron tombship. Now that would be a weapon of choice for the average trooper.

Lasgun won't work against that pesky gaunt? teleport out and wipe out the planet Vorlon style :eek:

Actually on a trooper level, I'd think that meltas would be better than either. Short range yes, but you kill what you hit, and trust in your reliable heavy bolter and heavy stubber crews to deal fire downrange.

Gen.Steiner
10-10-2006, 15:25
Actually on a trooper level, I'd think that meltas would be better than either. Short range yes, but you kill what you hit, and trust in your reliable heavy bolter and heavy stubber crews to deal fire downrange.

I'd prefer the longer range of the autogun or heavy stubber myself.

Actually, an autogun is good, because your percieved threat level is low, and you'll last longer that way...

jfrazell
10-10-2006, 16:03
I'd take the longlas myself, or the otherwise discussed light stubber.
*fluffwise eminantly both stronger and more accurate (Abnett novels anyway). The downside is that they are louder than silenced autoguns (not sure how).

*If non-fluff wise they seem moderately accurate, and are more quiet. A properly designed las would also be in the invisible portion of the spectrum to humans (and hopefully orks etc.).

If not I'd still have to go with the tombship.

Skrittiblak
10-10-2006, 16:42
Actually, an autogun is good, because your percieved threat level is low, and you'll last longer that way...

Actually in 40k low threat level units are removed first.

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 16:50
A modified (for accuracy) grenade launcher or a 100% safe plasma gun would be my weapon of choice if I, like General Steiner and jfrazell, was unallowed to utilize naval vessels as my weapon-of-choice.:D

Curufew
10-10-2006, 16:51
Me prefer a shoota !!!

*bang bang bang*

Voronwe[MQ]
10-10-2006, 16:52
A heavy autogun would count as a special weapon, and I hope that it will be included in the next version of Codex: Imperial Guard, as there are one thing on special and heavy weapons choices that I miss; weapons that can shoot a hell lot of lead bullets.

Tymell
10-10-2006, 17:40
As Hellebore (and possibly others, I haven't looked through every page) has noted, the type of target would affect penetration, since one is based on kinetic energy another on heat. So once the enemies of the Imperium develop asbestos armour plating lasguns will become last millenium's weapon :p


Xenos tekno-magic taints and corrupts its user!

You do know the internet is actually an Eldar creation they gave to us? ;)
*hides and hopes for some kind of explosion* :D

Commissar Rowe
10-10-2006, 18:10
I'm going to throw another consideration into the ring here...

Logistics:
Even if an IG regiment where to find that they had access to an autogun pattern that was cheap, resilient, easy to mass produce and effective in the field more so than a lasgun, they still have to consider the logistics of ammunition carrying.

A platoon could easily reload thier power packs from a single generator (I always figured chimeras would have some kind of plug in charger as well) meaning that thier ammunition carrying requirements are signifcantly lower for a protracted firefight as opposed to say a similar unit using autoguns...

1x Generator Vs. MANY crates of ammuniton.

Lets look at the maths...

A Guardsmen with an autogun carries his loaded weapon and spare ammunition loadout, lets be generous to him on the field and say he has an extra four magazines. His particular autogun pattern has a 20 round mag...

5x 20 round magazine = 100 rounds per soldier

Now if he happens to be only one soldier in a 50x man platoon...

100 rounds x 50 soldiers = 5,000 rounds per platoon

Now in a warzone with heavy fighting, especially if the troops are new, they will go through that ammunition very rapidly, in a siege environment or heavy combat, each man may use all his ammo loadout in a day. now you can see the numbers increase...

5,000 rounds per platoon, per day.

And this ammuniton has to be manufactured and brought to the frontline troops to enable them to continue fighting.

THIS is why the guard mainly uses lasguns...!

jfrazell
10-10-2006, 18:31
Plus, I'm thinking Imperial and Efficient Logistics are two statements that don't go together. As a trooper-accuracy and weight assumed to be equal, I'd rather have the powerpacks so I know I have "some" ammo. Of course this actually supports far greater use of lascannons and multilasers as well, under the same principal (although their batteries would take longer to recharge, at least you had the option).

lapis_lazuli
10-10-2006, 19:15
And the pulse rifle DOES have a power pack - it's attached bullpup style in the underside of the stock. Their backpack also contains 2 extra clips IIRC.

The larger cartridge in the stock is the ammo magazine. The power pack is the smaller one in front of it. There's a picture in the codices of a Shas'ui with a power cable running from the smaller port (not the one under the stock) to his backpack.


Recharge times for pulse rifle power packs must be at least around 2-3 hours in a mediocre light/heat. So I would prefer the lasgun or an autogun myself, although it's irrational.

Except, like the clever fella in the pic, you could hook your rifle up to the power plant in your backpack and have it run longer.

Gen.Steiner
10-10-2006, 20:03
Actually in 40k low threat level units are removed first.

Well, yes, in the game... but that's only because I, and not the opponent, remove my casualties.


You do know the internet is actually an Eldar creation they gave to us? ;)
*hides and hopes for some kind of explosion* :D

Ah, my laptop has been officially sanctioned by the AdMech, Ordo Xenos, and Ordo Hereticus. :D


I'm going to throw another consideration into the ring here...

Logistics:... THIS is why the guard mainly uses lasguns...!

Entirely true.

Splagbot
10-10-2006, 20:16
Indeed, Lasguns are probably the cheapest weapon ever.

Edit: Hey Steiner, just noticed it's your birthday, a General at the age of 20, thats good going.

Gen.Steiner
10-10-2006, 21:09
A General at the age of 20, thats good going.

It's entirely due to family connections. :p :angel:

jfrazell
10-10-2006, 21:27
Happy birthday Steiner. Jeez, you're just a baby, my wife would be pinching your cheeks.

Gen.Steiner
10-10-2006, 21:45
My moustache claims otherwise...! :p

Sarge
11-10-2006, 03:22
Not really. Tau tech is advancing faster than the Imperium, but if you compare the best Imperial military technology to the best Tau technology... you'll find it's swings and roundabouts. :p The Imperium wins in space, horribly, but the Tau do rather better in long-range slugging matches on the ground. Then again, the Tau are crap at close quarters (they don't have power fists, for example). I mean, OK, so the Tau have AI and automatic recaf makers in their battlesuits, but ... so what? The Imperium's got a bigger industrial base - so the Imperium wins. *shrug*
But the Imperium is doomed to fall before the onslaught of unrelenting Xeno and Heretics, so they lose in the end.

Skrittiblak
11-10-2006, 07:39
Actually in 40k low threat level units are removed first.
Well, yes, in the game... but that's only because I, and not the opponent, remove my casualties.

No way! They are removed first because thats one of the 'unspoken rules' of warfare in the 41st millenium. Only the ignoble Vindicare Assassin would dare pick out the heavy weapons of a squad. Even the brutal orks strictly adhere to this futuristic fighting philosphy. Even the malign forces of Chaos!

Lancer
11-10-2006, 13:34
But the Imperium is doomed to fall before the onslaught of unrelenting Xeno and Heretics, so they lose in the end.

Basically everybody but Chaos, the Necrons, and the Tyranids are doomed in the current setup. If the Nids don't wipe everybody out, the Necrons will. The only reason why Chaos is safe is because they can turtle up in the Eye of Terror & the Maelstrom, where they can make bad things happen to the laws of physics.

Llothlian
11-10-2006, 13:35
But if they are stuck in the EoT what will they do when Necrons close it? So Chaos is knackered too.

Voronwe[MQ]
11-10-2006, 14:00
And yet things are more complex than so, and I never believes in doomsday scenarios. Life is a hell of a force, but now back on topic.
Chaos is the sole winner in the end, if we must use that term (and are forced to) and only look to the aforementioned races. And yet the end might just be the beginning, or there might be no end, to put it metaphysically.

Skrittiblak
11-10-2006, 14:13
According to the Imperial Guard codex lasguns from the Kantrael forge world operate in the 19 megathule range. If we assume that thule is a bastardization of joule, and we further assume that autoguns impact with 17 joules of force (like current autoweapons), then we know that lasguns at 19 megajoules are MUCH more powerful.

Of course I could be wrong. Megathule might be an invented word. Games workshop would never do that. :angel:

Voronwe[MQ]
11-10-2006, 16:02
I'd be thankful if GW started using 'effect units' in the case of 'watt', 'tension units' in the case of 'volt' and so on. It'd fit much better.

EsDawg
12-10-2006, 00:09
;1001445']A heavy autogun would count as a special weapon, and I hope that it will be included in the next version of Codex: Imperial Guard, as there are one thing on special and heavy weapons choices that I miss; weapons that can shoot a hell lot of lead bullets.
Heavy autogun/stub gun is pretty much the idea behind a heavy stubber. Although it's a heavy weapon i view it as today's m60 and the heavy bolter as our 50 cal.

EsDawg
12-10-2006, 01:38
It has a similar caliber to the 50 cal. But how it's used it seems like the intermediary between the Heavy Bolter and basic infantry rifle also it's power falls in between those two. But yeah you're right that at the end of the day it's the closest equivalent to a 50 cal.

Honestly I'd like to see something similar to a SAW in WH40k. You have two ranged anti heavy armor weapons, but the grenade launchers frag is a bit too chancy for me. I'd like to see something anti infantry oriented with a good rate of fire.

Outlaw289
12-10-2006, 04:14
Honestly I'd like to see something similar to a SAW in WH40k. You have two ranged anti heavy armor weapons, but the grenade launchers frag is a bit too chancy for me. I'd like to see something anti infantry oriented with a good rate of fire.
Same here.
I made a home rule for that, not that thought out just kinda made it up.

Name it whatever you want

S3 AP- either Assault 2 24" or Heavy 3 30", +8 points, is a special weapon, available to veterans, guardsmen, and conscripts

Stormhammers
12-10-2006, 04:50
that sounds ******* great, I think I'm gonna do a lil conversion (this'll be fun) and play test both options and see how it goes...stay tuned

Stormhammers
12-10-2006, 05:10
true, that was another idea I was toying with, but they should be able to be used as a special weapon and not just by vet. sgt. and up.

downundercadet07
12-10-2006, 05:11
Kinda OT, but are there ports on the outside of IG tanks (in the fluff) for the infantry to recharge their mags off the powerplants waste energy? It would make sense. Especially in a classic WW1 style engagement, with the tanks up front and the grunts walking behind them.

Goq Gar
12-10-2006, 05:25
Erm, Autoguns should be higher AP. A lasgun causes a miniature explosion on contact apparently (as my friend sitting next to me has told me) and is therefore not an AP weapon, An autogun fires bullets. Case and point, bullets go through armour. AP ala autogun.

Skrittiblak
12-10-2006, 09:05
Erm, Autoguns should be higher AP. A lasgun causes a miniature explosion on contact apparently (as my friend sitting next to me has told me) and is therefore not an AP weapon, An autogun fires bullets. Case and point, bullets go through armour. AP ala autogun.

How does your friend know so much about lasguns? They are fictional weapons. Seems like a bold statement.

Hellguns, which are laser based, are considerably better at bypassing armour than autoguns, as indicated by their AP 5.

Llothlian
12-10-2006, 10:03
true, that was another idea I was toying with, but they should be able to be used as a special weapon and not just by vet. sgt. and up.

SoB can take them as special weapons.

Voronwe[MQ]
12-10-2006, 13:49
Stormhammers: Imperial Guard upgrade doctrine that can be bought by tanks; gives somewhere the same effects like the Power Generator stratagem to infantry squads and rough riders.

Lancer
12-10-2006, 16:52
According to the Imperial Guard codex lasguns from the Kantrael forge world operate in the 19 megathule range. If we assume that thule is a bastardization of joule, and we further assume that autoguns impact with 17 joules of force (like current autoweapons), then we know that lasguns at 19 megajoules are MUCH more powerful.

Of course I could be wrong. Megathule might be an invented word. Games workshop would never do that. :angel:

You can't directly compare 19 megajoules of thermal energy to 17 joules of kinetic energy (force is measured in newtons, not joules). Still, hitting somebody with 19 megajoules of lasbolt is enough to cause a rather large and probably fatal wound to Joe Cultist.

Stormhammers
24-10-2006, 04:03
the fact that the lasgun fires light energy makes it rather obvious that it has better penetration. An autogun's projectile would be defeated by a kevlar or spectra vest, while heat energy would tear through it, the flak vest not having a chance to disperse any kinetic energy from a solid projectile.

Tymell
24-10-2006, 05:07
the fact that the lasgun fires light energy makes it rather obvious that it has better penetration. An autogun's projectile would be defeated by a kevlar or spectra vest, while heat energy would tear through it, the flak vest not having a chance to disperse any kinetic energy from a solid projectile.

Although equally something designed to deal with that energy would be more resistant to a lasgun shot than a bullet propelled by kinetic force. It depends on the kind of armour you're firing at. As such, I think the core question is more, if fired at the same armour, which has no real advantage either eay, which penetrates more (if that makes sense).

Galvatron
24-10-2006, 06:54
Has GW ever given figures as to how much energy a lasgun really takes to use? If so you could accurately gauge its effectiveness with modern projectile weapons.

Here are some terminal energy transfer numbers for various real world rounds.

.40S&W: ~500 joules
.45ACP: ~600 joules
.50 Action Express (Desert Eagle): 1.5k joules
.50 S&W Supermagnum: 2.8k joules
.50 Browning (rifle): 17.5k joules.

You can see the difference between pistol and rifle energy transfers for similar calibers.

Can anyone quantify the output of a typical lasgun? Perhaps terminal energy transfer?

Isambard
24-10-2006, 07:59
Firstly, who ever thinks a Lasgun can fire multiple megajoules of energy per shot is quite frankly, barking. Given that, in terms of kinetic energy, the cannon rounds from an A10 have 100Kj of energy, saying a lasgun has over a megajoule is insane.

Perhaps they mean Wattage. A lasgun firing at 19megawatts is for more likely. With a pulse of 100 ,nanoseconds it would kick out 1.9Kj of energy, compared to the 1.8kj for 5.56NAT= and about 3Kj for 7.62NATO.

We cant just look at energy though, for both kinetic rounds the energy has very little to with penetration. Kinetic rounds mainly rely on their momentum to penetrate the target so you want a fast, heavy bullet with a small cross section.

For lasers you are looking at energy density, so you want a high energy with a small beam cross section.

The most important factor though is what you hit. My theory is that lasers are better at punching through harder armour, such as steel, where as softer armour, such as armourplas, absorbs more of the energy and thus saves the wearer.

Consider two targets, one wearing a flack jacket, the other a steel plate.

Against the steel plate the autogun round will either spang of or dent the armour. Only a very high powered round will punch through and still have enough energy to seriously hurt the user. A las weapon will start to burn holes through the steel. If one shot doesn't burn through then the residual heat will allow subsequent shots in the same are to cut through with little difficulty.

For the Flack Armour a bullet may just punch right through the armourplas padding. A Las weapon will have all its energy absorbed and spread out through the armourplas, creating bad surface damage but no deep damage. It may take manyt hits to the same area to burn through a thick slab or armour plas.

You also have to look at the damage to users. Because biological targets contain a lot of water the energy from a laser is very effieciently absorbed creating horrific but shallow burns. Against Humans, Eldar and Tau this would be enough to incapacitate the target but against Orks or Nids, who dont care for pain, the lack of deep tissue penetration will probably mean they carry on. For an Autogun the rounds may penetrate more deeply but with a narrow wound channel. If the round hits something vital the target will drop, if not then the damage, although painful, is not enough to drop the target (see all the stories of War vets who were shot but didn't notice it until they got back to base).

Autoguns and lasguns can not be compared simply in terms of power, neither one is simply 'better' than the other. They have advantages and disadvantages looking at who you are fighting. Against Orks I would take an Autogun every time, against Marines I would want the hard armour penetration of a Lasgun.

The reason that Guard use Lasguns as standard has nothing to do with power, accuracy or cost (which is a debate all in itself) but logisitics. Lasguns have no moving parts, so require less maintenance, and as they use power cells which are easy to recharge in the field, you need no supply lines for ammunition.

Isambard
24-10-2006, 08:04
No, the heavy stubber is equivalent to the M2 or similar .50 caliber weapon.


Nah, the model just LOOKs like the M2. You cant just look at a model and determine what it is from its looks, GW happily mixes fluff, models and rules all the time.

In most cases the Heavy Stubber is used as a squad support weapon, making it more akin to a GPMG or a SAW, even though the model looks bigger. It has a similar range to rifle weapons, adding to the comparison. Making the model a big ass machine gun just looks cool!