PDA

View Full Version : Should I take Trolls or a Giant against VCs in my O&G army?



Karhedron
08-10-2006, 20:27
I am taking my Orcs out for their first spin with the new army book and I am up against Vampire Counts. I am looking to take along a bit of extra muscle and it is currently a choice between 3 common Trolls or a Giant.

The Trolls are cheaper at only 120, have a lot more wounds, regenerate and will normally get more hits in combat. The obvious downside is stupidty although I plan to keep them near the general to minimise this risk.

Giants are Ld 10, stubborn and not affected by fear or terror. Also the total lack of missil weapons in a VC army means that he won't suffer for being a large target. The thought of jumping up and down on a unit of Grave Guard gives me the warm fuzzies. ;)

Currently I am leaning in favour of the Giant. Trolls need to stay near the general but against a fear-causing opponent, so do the rest of my troops. I would not expect either Trolls or a Giant to take many wounds from regular undead infantry so the extra wounds of the Trolls are not such a big deal. The main risk I see with a Giant is that something like a Spirit Host could potentially tie him up for the entire battle unless I get a luck "Yell and Bawl" attack.

Should I go with the Giant or can somone make a strong case for the Trolls?

Malduran
08-10-2006, 20:51
I would go with the giant. i would! and like a say... go with your first instincts as they are sometimes right

Dogskills
09-10-2006, 00:41
Take em all!

Toddums
09-10-2006, 01:14
I would take trolls. A unit of three would be dishing out 9 attacks at 3+ 2+!!!
Perfect for tearing apart skellies. Giant on the otherhand ain't gonna do so great unless it jumps up and down, which is a 1 in 6 chance. Terror isnt going to help at all either here, another reason to take trolls. Sure he could swing with club, but I say on average trolls are going to do more wounds to skelly infantry. Just my thoughts.

Dogskills
09-10-2006, 01:24
A giant might do pretty bad things to a undead knights unit, and they are expensive.

druchii
09-10-2006, 01:32
Alot of people have pointed out the obvious already.

What do you want the units to do? As mentoned above, the trolls are excellent at squashing rank and file undead (even grave guard!), while I see the giant more suited to stomping some cavalry or a coach.

d

Scythe
09-10-2006, 06:39
Don't forget that the giant is also rather vulnerable to a knight charge, especially with a character in there. Trolls, on the other hand, can regenerate against knights, and hit back with troll vomit. I would go for the trolls, and another random unit for the points saved.

Edric
09-10-2006, 07:47
Well, alot has been said... But I would go for both! (I know that may be a no-can-do, but...) I'm sure you know that trolls are stupid, so keep your general close by... (i've had that problem with skavs...)

But the giant has that one attack: win by two, that will only cause two kills... Good if you are after high Hp stuff, but bad against big infanytry units, just pray for his to start hoping arround...

In the end, I think the trolls will do more dammage, especially it you shoulder them with some other units that lak the necesarry punch (goblins) but who can add rank and banne bonuses...

Edric

Holy Crap! Manticores!
09-10-2006, 08:45
I say Giant only because of Stupidity with the trolls... my LD 9 cold one knights have failed at inoppurtunr times, and trolls are less than LD9 IIRC.

Karhedron
09-10-2006, 19:16
Hmm, so many oppinions and all of them valid. :(

At the moment I am running tight on points (I forgot to mention that it is 2000 points) so including both is not really an option. Going for Trolls would free up a few points elswhere and the Giant would be volnerable to Ethereal units and also Ghouls poisoned attacks.

@Holy Crap! Manticores! Yes stupidity is a majow drawback to Trolls and their Ld 4 doesn't help. :o They would definitely have to stay within range of my general in order to be any use. The trouble is that against a fear causing enemy, most of my units will be similarly huddled round my Warboss's comforting Ld 9.

OK. I am going to take a gamble and go with 3 Trolls. 9 attacks killing on 3+ followed by 2+ would wipe out the entire front rank of a Skeleton or Zombie unit. Plus it gives me an extra 85 points to play with which I can use to bolster a few of my units.

Thanks for all the input folks. The battle isn't for another 24 hours so if anyone comes up with any game-winning arguments there is still time for me to change my mind (again). :)

larabic
09-10-2006, 20:06
I would go with the Giant, even if it is charged by an etheral unit hopefully yell and ball can get you out of it or just come into the flanks of the unit because your giant isnt going anywhere.

The trolls have low LD and cause fear so stupidity and terror could be a problem, plus the vomit attack (while pretty much garunteed wounds) isnt enough of a result to win combat. Plus they dont have they hitting power to win combat against a rank and file unit.

Do the math...3 trolls vs 20 skeletons. You have nine attacks...6 will hit (3+ to hit) five of those will wound. Skeletons do no damage back. Rank +3, outnumber, standard gives them a five combat result....you have a 5 combat result...do you have a musician? But thats just playing the numbers...

If i were you id take the giant though, its manuverability alone is convincing enough for me...plus ghouls will need to take terror tests to attack him :-)
Hope you battle goes well.....

robertsjf
09-10-2006, 20:10
Other than the fact that GW needs you to use your plastic giant so all the other gamers can see how fantastic it is and run out and get one, I'm also going to sound off on trolls. Theres the more attack, regenerate, and stuff like that which give trolls the edge in this argument but I think your made a critical point when you mentioned you'd save 85 points: thats 14.1666666666666666666 orc boys. What better way to ensure that your dead opponent doesn't outnumber you?

GrogsnotPowwabomba
09-10-2006, 20:20
Trolls, for all the reasons already stated...

metro_gnome
09-10-2006, 21:22
trolls... 2 groups of 2...
kills dead... um... dead...

Karhedron
09-10-2006, 22:08
but I think your made a critical point when you mentioned you'd save 85 points: thats 14.1666666666666666666 orc boys. What better way to ensure that your dead opponent doesn't outnumber you?
Good point. I think I will get a unit of Arrer boyz now they are 25% cheaper than they used to be. The unit will make a good body guard for my shamans and since they also have choppas, I can throw them into combat on flanks if I need to tip the balance of a critical combat.

Karhedron
11-10-2006, 20:03
OK, well the game is over so I thought it only fair to report how things went.

I opted for Trolls and I have to say that they didn't entirely work out for me. Despite my best efforts to keep them close to the general, a high overun move soon saw him run out of range and the Trolls returned to their natural habit of drooling menacingly at the enemy.

Fortunately my opponent sportingly charged a unit of Dire Wolves at them which they proceeded to eat. :) So overall result, they made most of their points back and survived the battle but I wouldn't say they really contributed much to the battle. I think in future I will probably stick to a Giant and save the Trolls for 3000+ point games where I can afford the points for a big boss on boar to babysit them. The bottom line is that the new rules animosity make it too easy for your general to go haring off out of range of the Trolls.

On the plus side I did win the battle by a stonking margin. My regular Orks trampled Skeletons, and Black Knights into the ground. My rock lobba crushed the Black Coach and my Warboss bit the Vampire Count's head off (I love Iron Gnashas! :D). After that it was just a case of moping up as the rest of the army slowly crumbled.

robertsjf
11-10-2006, 23:48
Ah yes, the new Waaaagh rules could very well leave the trolls out of range. New thing to think about...

Unwise
12-10-2006, 02:49
I think that giants pay a real premium for the ability to cause terror. This is not to say that they are not worth it, but a giant hits no harder than a group of trolls and is no harder to kill. Against high leadership (or undead) enemies I would go with trolls every time.

Scythe
12-10-2006, 06:36
Ah yes, the new Waaaagh rules could very well leave the trolls out of range. New thing to think about...

Well, trolls are normally faster than Orcs, so I don't see huge problems here...

EvC
12-10-2006, 13:18
If i were you id take the giant though, its manuverability alone is convincing enough for me...plus ghouls will need to take terror tests to attack him :-)

Ghouls would need to take a fear test you mean, but never mind.

Personally I'd have taken the Giant without even considering the tactics situation- simply for fun! It is good against undead too since there's so few ranged atatcks that might hurt him.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
12-10-2006, 14:42
I agree with Scythe. The Trolls are faster, and probably should be in the front anyway to be scary, soak up missle fire, deter charges, etc.

Karhedron
12-10-2006, 18:46
I agree with Scythe. The Trolls are faster, and probably should be in the front anyway to be scary, soak up missle fire, deter charges, etc.

Hmm, I usually use them on the flanks myself. I try not to rank up powerful combat units in front of each other. Maybe I should reconsider this strategy in the case of trolls.


Well, trolls are normally faster than Orcs, so I don't see huge problems here...
This is true and it does help. The problem is that overruns and animosity moves can be rather unpredictable. In this case, a challenge moved my Warboss to the far side of the unit and the overrun then took them out of range of the Trolls. To be honest if I had been more careful, I could probably have kept the Trolls nearer the general. It is tricky though to plan a couple of turns ahead, particularly when the opportunity for a good charge is just too tempting to turn down. :evilgrin:

Scythe
13-10-2006, 06:25
Yeah, it requires some practice, I admit. Of course, if you can afford a babysitting hero, your troubles are not all that great. But then, my regular O&G opponent always manages quite fine to keep them within 12" of the general.

larabic
15-10-2006, 03:49
I opted for Trolls and I have to say that they didn't entirely work out for me.


Well, i hate to say so but ...I told ya so! Nah just kidding i have played orcs and gobos for 10 yrs and one of my main opponents is Undead so i know the value of a reliable troop that is immune to fear terror and is really a clinche player. Its so hard to make trolls work because you dont have the numbers that you really want and if you did then your frontage would be massive. I hardly ever see more then three in a unit and in my opinion its just not enough to to do anything major.

Scythe
15-10-2006, 15:09
I usually find that 4 man ogre sized creatures are optimal. All 4 can attack in normal situations, the maximal output for the points invested. However, the 1+ norm on trolls brings on some interesting extra options. You could run single trolls just to get some extra high strenght attacks to supplement your infantry units, or run units of 2 as flankers.