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Randallw
29-06-2005, 02:48
I was reading Codex:Eye of terror, and it has a passage where it says the Chaos legions put aside their bitter hatreds and that even the Alpha Legion and Wordbearers had an uneasy peace. So why do those two hate each other? Is it something to do with the AL specialising in cults and secrecy while the WB use massive cathedrals and followers?

Sikkukkut
29-06-2005, 03:53
I'd guess that this is because they share a similar broad strategy and MO. Both operate through cults and seditious underground movements on Imperial worlds on which they have designs, but their objectives are different. The Alpha Legion try to create guerilla insurgencies as an adjunct to their own campaigns, while the Word Bearers's first priority is religious indoctrination. Thus they'll find themselves competing for the available pool of dissidents and troublemakers with different ends in mind. I daresay that the very different cultures and outlooks of their respective Legions are going to amplify the difference and make it hard for them to compromise on these things.

Brusilov
29-06-2005, 06:32
Indeed the feud has to do with the different outlooks of the Legions on how to use the cults under the sway and how to indoctrinate them.
As mentioned, the AL trains cultists to be infiltrators, saboteurs, while the WB create mass cults of fanatics. One should also mention that while WB are strong believers in the majesty of the Chaos Gods, while the AL have an utilitarian use of the dark powers, they don't really worship them. This would be anathema to the WB who thinks they must reshape the Imperium into a domonion of the Ruinous Powers.

malika
29-06-2005, 08:56
One should also mention that while WB are strong believers in the majesty of the Chaos Gods, while the AL have an utilitarian use of the dark powers, they don't really worship them. This would be anathema to the WB who thinks they must reshape the Imperium into a domonion of the Ruinous Powers.

If this were to be the case would it also mean that the World Bearers would have a hostile relation with the Night Lords?

Sikkukkut
29-06-2005, 09:23
They're Chaos Marines. Who don't they have a hostile relationship with?

malika
29-06-2005, 09:28
That's true...but Im kind of bugged by the fact that Chaos is having too much infighting. I mean all the Legions want to destroy each other in one way or the other...how come they are still around and still very powerful after 10.000 years

grazer
29-06-2005, 09:40
My guess is that since time in the Warp is not exactly linear, we can't see the ravages that they have wrought on eachother because it may not exist yet in our time. Or something along those lines, especially since that's how they write off the fact that there are only so many marines who fell to Chaos and yet they are still a threat. I'm not too keen on the Chaos fluff, but it seems like this is somewhat accurate.

Brusilov
29-06-2005, 18:01
On the matter of Night Lords and Word Bearers, there is nothing in the fluff that says they have a ongoing feud. They may fight each other when they meet but I don't think WB go out of their way to hunt them, or the other way around.
Night Lords are spread out across the galaxy with no main base IIRC, while the Word Bearers usually operate from either Sicarus or Ghalmek.
They don't have the same objectives, Night Lords use hit-and-run tactics while Word Bearers stage full-scale invasions in order to build cathedrals and convert people.

Easy E
29-06-2005, 22:12
I think what he is getting at is NightLords are not interested in the Ruinous Powers so much as they are in doing naughty and scary things.

The WordBearers would love to convert them to a more devout form of worship, but I don't think they go out of their way. The Alpha Legion are a more direct threat to them and their power base on a targeted world.

Brusilov
29-06-2005, 22:45
Well, in a sense the Night Lords are worshipping Chaos. If you refer to the novel Lord of the Night (which I won't spoil but it's an excellent novel), the Legion could pay reverence to a daemonic lord of fear and terror (after all there are more or less an infinite number of minor Chaos powers).

Nazguire
01-07-2005, 11:22
Well, in a sense the Night Lords are worshipping Chaos. If you refer to the novel Lord of the Night (which I won't spoil but it's an excellent novel), the Legion could pay reverence to a daemonic lord of fear and terror (after all there are more or less an infinite number of minor Chaos powers).


Indeed that could be the way for a few Night Lords. But a bunch of criminals in power armour aren't really the bunch to go around and be dominated in any way. They're bullies, as the IA states. In my personal opinion, they use Chaos when needed, and then when it doesn't suit them, rejects it. Well as much as you can reject Chaos anyhow ;)

Brusilov
02-07-2005, 07:42
Indeed that seems to be true

SPOILER ALERT!

In Lord of the Night, the story of the death of Night Haunter is described in detail (but from a subjective perspective) and the story seems to imply a split in the Legion, between those who thought fear was an instrument of domination (like the Legion and the Primarch used to think) and those who believe fear is an end in itself.

The story does not say how much of the Legion still believes in the older idea apart from the Night Lord that is one of the story's main characters, but it would seem logical this belief is held by still part of the Legion

Slazton
03-07-2005, 18:46
Alas, unlike Brusi I will refer to spoiler tags

The Night Lords seem to refer to have a beastial nature within themselves and alas this nature is what causes them to become to psycho killers in hand to hand. However, some see this as what the Night Lords are and its the Night Haunter aspect of Konrad(sp?), but the Night Lord in the book sees that this is a tool to be used, not to be allowed to take them over. They must practise control.

Also the Word Bearers are devoted to Chaos, of course they would hate anyone who thinks Chaos is just a tool to be used. They worship it fully, as its the Path of HUmanity ;)

Brusilov
03-07-2005, 20:39
The WB do believe that the way of Chaos is the way of the future of mankind, but they are also pragmatic enough to ally with the other Legions of Chaos in bringing down the Imperium. Once this is done, a civil war would probably occur between the Chaos Legions as to who would rule the Imperium.

Thus an alliance with the Night Lords would not be out of question as long as both sides have an interest in it.

Psiweapon
04-07-2005, 11:00
That's true...but Im kind of bugged by the fact that Chaos is having too much infighting. I mean all the Legions want to destroy each other in one way or the other...how come they are still around and still very powerful after 10.000 years

Because in the warp they can't even find their own asses (those who still have them!!)

Nazguire
04-07-2005, 11:42
The WB do believe that the way of Chaos is the way of the future of mankind, but they are also pragmatic enough to ally with the other Legions of Chaos in bringing down the Imperium. Once this is done, a civil war would probably occur between the Chaos Legions as to who would rule the Imperium.

Thus an alliance with the Night Lords would not be out of question as long as both sides have an interest in it.


A war would break out me believes over those who truly worship Chaos as a path to greatness, and those that just use it to defeat their enemies. Idealogical differences even...big word I used :D

It would in all likelihood be the Word Bearers Legion and factions of the other Legions versus the less religious Legions such as the Alpha Legion. Iron Warriors and the Black Legion (Not too sure about the Black Legion so much, are they devout or just use Chaos...?)

Brusilov
04-07-2005, 18:36
Black Legionnaires would probably be split, there are probably faithful amongst them, as well as people who see Chaos in a utilitarian manner. One should add that the god specific Legions would probably also fight amongst each other for domination.

Darkhorse
05-07-2005, 15:11
As an Alpha Legion player I can see precisely what the difference between the AL and the WB is. In Index Astartes IV you have the fluff about Lorgar and his view of religeon.
The general trend is rather summed up by the words;
"Kneal before the Glory of Chaos, or die now!!!"
Hints of one or two fire & brimstone fanatics I've come across in my time which still leave me a little annoyed even now.

The AL on the other hand don't have the same degree of contact with the other Traitor Legions as they opperate from within the Imperium iteself as opposed to having to blast their way out of the EoT.
The cults are simply their way of securing supply lines in much the same way as an Imperial Chapter has serfs from their homeworld.
Indeed the AL has far more parallels with the Loyalist Chapters than it does with the other Traitor Legions, they might be considered more in the vein of the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs than anything else.

Word Bearers are beneath contempt... :evilgrin:

Brusilov
05-07-2005, 18:27
I'm not surprised you would say such things, slave to the hydra :p
And yes, incidently I'm a Word Bearer player. All hail to the Undivided Glory of Chaos! :evilgrin:

Your take on cultists is very interesting however. They seem to work in ways more akin to terrorist cells than cults. After all they don't worship anything, maybe except the glory of Chaos, although the AL would also use real Chaos cults for their cause. They're pragmatic, anything that serves their purpose is worth taking

Skander
06-07-2005, 15:38
As I see it, the Alpha Legion are the only truly EVIL Legion. They´re not worshipers, really, not if they don´t get an inmediate advantage from it. They´re just evil. They don´t even have that batman-like admiration on fear... They just seek the destruction of the imperium because they can/want it.

Randallw
07-07-2005, 03:58
As the last legion created the Alpha Legion have an inferiority complex. They seek the destruction of the imperium, and don't get on with the other Chaos legions because they can't stand everyone else being better ;) .

Xisor
07-07-2005, 05:02
Am I picking this up right that effectively the Alpha Legion are the rioting G8 protestors? :p

Effectively they are anarchists, yes? Or at least in very sweeping and broadly generalised terms.

Xisor

Randallw
07-07-2005, 07:18
Chaos as Anarchists, hmmm yes, I like the comparison. Chaos worshippers are a bunch of low lifes with no respect for society :mad: , and the Imperium is the authority that needs to crack down on such people before they cause willful damage to public property and disturb order :)

Wiseman
07-07-2005, 07:49
chaos is just grumpy they ran out of toilet paper and they couldnt get any from the imperium as they dont deal with their kind, its why chaos keeps attacking :rolleyes: not like they are anarchists or anything

Xisor
07-07-2005, 08:37
Thats the thing though. The police have bottled up the anarchists in their camp outside of Stirling. If they keep them there long enough they'll run out of toilet paper too! :p

This is a very strange coincidence indeed. Stirling, the Eye of Terror? :eek:

Xisor

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 14:27
I would not say Chaos worshippers are anarchists, and certainly Word Bearers are not (though Alpha Legion may be). When you think about it, Horus' purpose was not to bring down the Imperium. He staged a coup against the Emperor and wanted to become the new Emperor (hence the warcry: "Death to the false Emperor!"). Thus I would argue that many Legions, and especially the Word Bearers, are not anarchists.

WB fluff makes it clear that if Lorgar was ever to take over he would maintain the Imperium but spread the worship of Chaos to all worlds under his control. Abaddon, if he follows the footsteps of Horus, also wants to become the Emperor of a Chaos Imperium.

Chaos, as I see it, is about freedom, utter freedom. It's about realising one's potential (after all that's the reason behind the drive to daemonhood), whether through carnage and massacres, through lust for emotions, through constant scheming and plotting or through the spreading of disease and desperation.
Chaos is also creative destruction. It seeks to destroy things but only to build them anew (not necessarily better though). Chaos is by its very nature entropic (and please don't throw mathematics into this, we're talking about metaphysics and philosophy here).
Most importantly Chaos is one of the two sides of life and is necessary for its existence. It is the careful balance between Chaos and Law that makes the universe understandable and livable for us, because we live in a universe with set rules but where change and free will exists.
A world wholly dominated by law would be as frozen in timeless "perfection" while one dominated by Chaos would be everchanging entropy at the whim of the gods.