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x-esiv-4c
09-10-2006, 22:36
Hi,
Can someone please tell me exactly how bombers work? I understand that when they engage an enemy capital ship each squadron gets D6 attacks. Say I roll a 4, does that mean I get 4 dice rolls to try to beat the armour of the enemy cruiser or does that mean I get 1 shot at the armour per bomber unit?


Also, Say I'm fielding the Terminus est, could I launch 9 bomber wings a turn? ( assuming i've reloaded ordinance )

Shinnentai
09-10-2006, 22:51
Each squadron that doesn't get knocked down by turrets gets D6 attacks less the number of turrets on the target. EG :

An attack craft wave of three bomber markers attacks a Lunar class cruiser with 2 turrets. Each turret gets one D6 against each attack craft wave and knocks down an attack craft marker on a 4+. The 2 Lunar turrets roll a 2 and a 5, destroying one bomber marker and leaving two to make attack runs.

The surviving bomber markers roll a D6 each, each subtracting 2 from their scores for the 2 turrets. They roll a 1 and a 5. This equates to (1-2=0)+(5-2=3) attacks, or 3 attacks (note that individual bomber sqn attacks cannot go below 0). The attacking player then rolls 3D6 needing 5+ on each to score damage vs the Lunar (remember it's always vs. the weakest armour for bombers).

Also, don't forget a ship cannot try to shoot down both attack craft and torps in the same turn, so try to combine your attacks!

And yes, the Terminus Est can launch 9 bomber wings a turn, in any combination of waves you want (EG you could have a wave of 5 and a wave of 4).

ArtificerArmour
10-10-2006, 18:17
Also any fighters in their wave add +1 attack. So you'd get D6 + 1 for one fighter supporting one bomber in the wave.

Shinnentai
10-10-2006, 19:35
Yes, each fighter adds one to the number of attacks by the attack craft wave. Importantly, the wave gets that bonus whether the fighter is knocked out by turrets or not, so long as there is a bomber in the wave that survives to attack.

Also, the bonus is limited to the number of turrets on a target, so if there were three fighters and a bomber in a wave attacking a 2 turret ship, they'd only get a +2 bonus, not +3.

A little example that may make things clearer :

A wave of 2 bombers and 3 fighters attack a 2 turret ship.
There's no point rolling for turret knock-downs as the fighters would be destroyed first, and they get their bonus whether knocked down or not!
The number of attacks is now (D6-2)+(D6-2)+2.

So if you know your wave is going to hit a 3 or more turreted ship, you may as well launch all fighters and just one bomber in a wave. You'd regret that if you then manage to cripple the target in the shooting phase of course :rolleyes:.

x-esiv-4c
10-10-2006, 20:09
where is this all stated in the rule book? Like fighters giving bombers +1 attacks.

2 more questions: How big is a wave? Can you have a way of 3 bombers? Or 1 bomber? etc etc.

second question: How many escorts can be brought together in one squadron?

ArtificerArmour
10-10-2006, 21:02
It was in the additional ordnance rules, detailing the use of waves.

A wave can be formed in one ordnance phase when launched. This means the maximum a wave can be is limited to how many attack craft the ship can launch per turn ie a ship with port lb of 2 and sb lb 2 can make a wave of 4craft.

It can be a mix of assualt boats, bombers and fighters, fighters only offer the +1 attack. Once the wave is broken or seperated (not in base contact) it cannot be reformed. Any fighters take out the fighters first, then when no fighters remain, take out bombers.

Squadrons are always maximum of 6, I believe that is in the big blue book.

x-esiv-4c
10-10-2006, 21:48
Ok so the Terminus est can launch 9 craft. Say I launch 1 bomber and 8 fighters in one wing does that mean I get (1D6+8) attacks minus the number of turrets.

(yes i'm a serious nooblet)

Shinnentai
10-10-2006, 22:41
nope, you would get (D6-X)+(D6-X)+(D6-X)+(D6-X)+(D6-X)+(D6-X)+(D6-X)+(D6-X)+1 attacks, where X is the number of turrets on the target. That's assuming none of the bombers are shot down of course. And don't forget that if an individual bomber's score goes below zero attacks, it just counts as a zero, not -1 or anything.

So against a Lunar, a wave of 8 bombers and one fighter has a maximum number of attacks of 33 (if you roll 8 6's :) ), which on 5+ armour would be 11 damage plus a couple of crititcals. Bye bye Lunar :cool:. Even rolling average dice you would get 14 dice and 4 or 5 damage - enough to cripple if it was stupid enough not to brace for impact :rolleyes:.

Still, such a large wave is bound to attract lots of fire to it, which when combined with the dangers of going through blast markers would make me decidedly nervous! Anything but a 6... :cries:

CELS
10-10-2006, 22:53
He's not asking about 8 bombers and 1 fighter. He's asking about 1 bomber and 8 fighters. A really amusing question it is too... But the answer seems to be yes. But let's compare.

We'll say that D6 = 3.5, to represent the average score.
8 fighters and 1 bomber = 3.5 + 8 = 11.5. Against a cruiser with two turrets, that's 9.5 attacks.
1 fighter and 8 bombers = (3.5+1) * 8 = 36. Against a cruiser with two turrets, that's (3.5-2) * 8 = 12 attacks.

Unless, of course, I'm completely wrong :D Which wouldn't be the first time, when it comes to these kinds of calculations.

Tastyfish
10-10-2006, 23:43
Each fighter knocks off the -1 from a turret, so against the lunar they (the individual bombers) would be D6 + 2, but against a Tau explorer it would be D6 +6 (but then D6 +6 -6). I don't think they add extra hits of their own, just allow the bombers to reach their full capacity by supressing turrets.

Shinnentai
11-10-2006, 08:24
Ah sorry - misread the question >__<. Yes, it would be (D6-X)+X then, since the fighter bonus is limited by the number of turrets on the target.

CELS : yes I'm afraid your arithmatic is wrong on the 8 bomber + 1 fighter vs 2 turret ship calculation. A bomber would get 0/0/1/2/3/4 attacks against such a target : an average of 1.67 x 8 + 1 for the fighter = 14.36.

Tastyfish : The rule does indeed represent the suppressive effect of the fighters on the turrets, although for clarity it is written in such a way that the fighters appear to grant an attack, since otherwise people would think that the fighter bonus applies to each bomber in the wave rather than being a single bonus. Explorers 'only' have 5 turrets though ... :).

FuriosoShadow
15-10-2006, 03:46
Indeed, the formula is (d6 + fighter bonus) - turret number. Against a 2 turret ship, with 1 fighter supporting it, a bomber would get 0/1/2/3/4/5 attacks ((d6 +1) -2), not 0/0/1/2/3/4.

Getz
15-10-2006, 12:00
I still don't think that fighters give you bonus attacks.

As I understand the rules, if you have three fighters in a wave attacking a two turret ship, two of the fighters supress the tureets and the third contributes nothing.

Sojourner
15-10-2006, 12:43
I still don't see the point of fighters. Attack craft on attack craft, both markers are removed anyway. Against ships, the turrets are likely to destroy something and since a bomber unit is no more costly to use in game than a fighter, why bother with fighters at all?

Shinnentai
15-10-2006, 15:36
I still don't think that fighters give you bonus attacks.

As I understand the rules, if you have three fighters in a wave attacking a two turret ship, two of the fighters supress the tureets and the third contributes nothing.
You're correct in that the fighter attacks are limited to the number of turrets on the target, however if I recall correctly the wording of the rule states that you add 1 attack rather than remove one turret for a single bomber. I believe they did this so that the attacker can roll all the bomber dice together still rather than rolling for the bombers with fighter assists and then the rest of the bombers in the wave without (this does make a difference when a bomber delivers negative attacks: the fighter would be wasted in such a system since the bomber's attacks count as zero with or without it). Unfortunately Port Maw no longer seems to be hosting the ad verbatim article since its site re-design, so I can't prove what I say.

Also, though I don't think you meant this in your post, I'll just re-iterate that fighters do not suppress turrets for the entire attack craft wave.


I still don't see the point of fighters. Attack craft on attack craft, both markers are removed anyway. Against ships, the turrets are likely to destroy something and since a bomber unit is no more costly to use in game than a fighter, why bother with fighters at all?
I presume you're talking about using fighters in mixed waves here, since of course they have massive applications in anti-bomber and anti-torp operations.

Putting fighters and bombers together in mixed formations has two benefits :
a). Fighters receive the +1 attack even if they're shot down by the target's turrets, so against 2 turret ships you may as well include a fighter sqn.
b). Against targets with 4 or more turrets, fighters are actually more effective than bombers, so you're best off including as many fighters as there are turrets on your intended target (as long as you have at least one bomber sqn in there...).

ReDavide
15-10-2006, 21:52
I still don't see the point of fighters. Attack craft on attack craft, both markers are removed anyway. Against ships, the turrets are likely to destroy something and since a bomber unit is no more costly to use in game than a fighter, why bother with fighters at all?

Just as an illustration of Shinnentai's point...

I regularly field a hive ship with 6 turrets. Ships with 6 turrets are completely immune to regular bomber waves - the bombers are too busy dodging turrets to get any bombing runs in at all.

Throw fighters into the mix, and suddently your attack craft are a threat again. A wave of one bomber and six fighters will get 6 attack runs against my hive. That may not seem like much for a bomber wave, but 6 is way better than 0.

(And from my hive's point of view, those six bomber rolls carry the same destructive power as a strength 16 lance attack :eek:.) Not too shabby.

FuriosoShadow
17-10-2006, 05:22
Erm, do tell, how can 1 squadron of bombers get 6 attack runs...?

As I understand it, that squadron gets d6+6-6 attacks, this d6. Which would be 1-6 attacks.

Also, if the ship shoots at the incoming wave with its turrets, do fighters get taken out, or do bombers get taken out? If fighters get taken out, is their bonus lost?

Shinnentai
17-10-2006, 07:47
Erm, do tell, how can 1 squadron of bombers get 6 attack runs...?

As I understand it, that squadron gets d6+6-6 attacks, this d6. Which would be 1-6 attacks.
Incorrect. The rule is written such that the fighter adds attacks rather than cancelling turrets, so 1 bomber + 6 fighters vs. a 6 turret ship is (D6-6)+6. As I say, unfortunately Port Maw no longer hosts the ad verbatim article, but this has come up a lot on the SG forum. Here's one of the threads with an Answer MOD stating the rules as I have :

http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4069


Also, if the ship shoots at the incoming wave with its turrets, do fighters get taken out, or do bombers get taken out? If fighters get taken out, is their bonus lost?
Fighters will always get taken out first. The owning player does not get a choice in this, but they get their bonus even if shot down.

FuriosoShadow
17-10-2006, 22:35
Wow. So, this seems kind of broken perhaps?

Bombers just got a lot more effective in my eyes.

So, does that bonus get applied to each squadron? Say, if I launched from an Emperor Battleship against that Hive ship 3 squadrons of bombers with 5 squadrons of fighters attached, would it get (d6-6)+5 + (d6-6) +5 + (d6-6) +5, or would it get (d6-6) + (d6-6) + (d6-6) + 5?

ReDavide
17-10-2006, 23:40
Wow. So, this seems kind of broken perhaps?Not really. Dedicating an entire attack craft squadron to make 1 attack is a nice option, but not too powerful. If memory serves, the fighter-support rule was introduced at the same time they started letting fighters defend capital ships by going on CAP. Giving capital ships this extra protection prompted them to beef up bomber waves some to compensate.


So, does that bonus get applied to each squadron? Say, if I launched from an Emperor Battleship against that Hive ship 3 squadrons of bombers with 5 squadrons of fighters attached, would it get (d6-6)+5 + (d6-6) +5 + (d6-6) +5, or would it get (d6-6) + (d6-6) + (d6-6) + 5?The 2nd one. The bonus is only applied to the wave. A wave of 8 bombers and 8 fighters would still just get 6 attacks.

FuriosoShadow
18-10-2006, 03:07
So it really is more cost effective to take only fighters against some ships =P.

What, exactly, does CAP do? I've never found the rules myself.

ReDavide
18-10-2006, 05:18
So it really is more cost effective to take only fighters against some ships =P.Just be sure to take at least one bomber or you won't get any attacks at all.

What, exactly, does CAP do? I've never found the rules myself.
If you can track down a copy of the BFG 2002 Annual, they're all in there.

My copy is packed up at the moment, but the gist of it is that your fighters can move into base contact with a friendly ship and declare that they are now staying close to that ship to guard it. They'll now stay in base contact with the ship during all its moves, but cannot move themselves in the ordnance phase. Any ordnance attacking the ship will be automatically intercepted by the fighters with the usual results (an entire torp wave or single attack craft squadron is removed).
The downside is that the fighters are vulnerable to debris getting blasted off the ship, so any hit against the ship that creates a blast marker (I think) will wipe out all fighters on CAP (they may get a 4+ save? I forget).

It basically makes it easier for fighters to protect their chosen ship, since without the CAP rules you get weird things happening, like bombers flying around defensive fighters to attack the ship, or the ship's compulsory movement taking it outside its fighter cover.

They're easily killed, but it can be worth doing it in your own ordnance phase when you see an ordnance wave that will hit before your enemy's shooting phase.

Shinnentai
18-10-2006, 22:15
The downside is that the fighters are vulnerable to debris getting blasted off the ship, so any hit against the ship that creates a blast marker (I think) will wipe out all fighters on CAP (they may get a 4+ save? I forget).
Every time a shield is knocked down on the vessel being protected a D6 is rolled and all of the fighters on CAP on that vessel are removed on the roll of a 6.

ReDavide
19-10-2006, 00:06
Every time a shield is knocked down on the vessel being protected a D6 is rolled and all of the fighters on CAP on that vessel are removed on the roll of a 6.

Hrm, how does this work for eldar fighters?

Shinnentai
19-10-2006, 08:16
Hmm, not too sure - my Annual is also packed up. I got that answer from a SG forum search. If it's roll a 6 every time a blast marker is generated from enemy fire then that's possible vs. lances etc. Or perhaps it's just every time the vessel is fired upon Oo