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MidnightResistance
29-06-2005, 08:36
I was just contemlating the Deathwing and their themes and came to the conclusion that they're just very messed up and confused about themselves.

They start off with the theme of a knightly order, then some of them kill a bunch of genestealers on their tribal recruitment world. In honour of them the first company is called the Deathwing, gets painted bone or white, is covered in American Indian style icons and has feather dangling off them (all mixed in with the medieval style heraldry) and to top it all off there a midgets in robes living in their space fortress.

Medieval Indians with midgets.

Doesn't anyone else think this is a little....bizarre?

Adept
29-06-2005, 08:56
Doesn't anyone else think this is a little....bizarre?

Medieval indian space midgets? That's almost as cool as space pirate ninja cat-women!

MidnightResistance
29-06-2005, 08:59
Now there's a concept for the next 40K race! :D

Delicious Soy
29-06-2005, 10:26
You kid now......:p

I don't think they are very confused when you think about it a bit more. Their heraldry was changed in honour of fallen bretheren, adopting their heraldry for their own. As for feathers, The Black Prince's heraldry ws actually three feathers IIRC, so really feathers fit.

I have nothing on the midgets though :p

MidnightResistance
29-06-2005, 10:49
Why was The Black Prince called Teh Black Prince?

charlie_c67
29-06-2005, 11:03
Totally off topic but...One google article states:

"His nickname probably was derived from the color of his armor, but nobody knows for sure."

and another:

"It was apparently the French who called him the Black Prince, perhaps because he wore black armor; the name was not recorded in England until the 16th cent."

and another:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward,_the_Black_Prince

"Edward is almost always now called the "Black Prince," but he was never known as such during his lifetime (instead being known as Edward of Woodstock after his place of birth). The "Black Prince" title was coined at least 200 years after his death. Its origin is uncertain; while some later historians have speculated that he may have worn black armour, or a black surcoat over his armour, it is also likely that the name was first coined by French chroniclers in reference to the ruinous military defeats he had inflicted on France"

Melchor
29-06-2005, 11:31
That is the reason why I will try to steer away from the native-american theme when I get to do my Deathwing army. It's just too much! There you have this army of medieval warrior-monks and when they reach the 1st company, they suddenly become a tribe of plains-people.
I think I'll stick to the knightly theme. Much clearer that way. I'll have enough of a hard time trying to come up with 20 unique pieces of heraldry anyway. :rolleyes:

MidnightResistance
29-06-2005, 11:39
Only the characters in the deathwing display their heraldry. Everyone else only has the standard Chapter and first company markings.

I'm also scheptical about adding feathers. I'm going to get the High elf archer feathers, paint em up and blu tac them on to see if they work or not.
I'm thinking NOT, but anything could happen

Easy E
29-06-2005, 22:34
Totally off topic but...One google article states:

"His nickname probably was derived from the color of his armor, but nobody knows for sure."

and another:

"It was apparently the French who called him the Black Prince, perhaps because he wore black armor; the name was not recorded in England until the 16th cent."

and another:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward,_the_Black_Prince

"Edward is almost always now called the "Black Prince," but he was never known as such during his lifetime (instead being known as Edward of Woodstock after his place of birth). The "Black Prince" title was coined at least 200 years after his death. Its origin is uncertain; while some later historians have speculated that he may have worn black armour, or a black surcoat over his armour, it is also likely that the name was first coined by French chroniclers in reference to the ruinous military defeats he had inflicted on France"

I thought a knight was considered the Black Knight when he eschewed using his heraldry. So any jnight without heraldry was a Black Knight. Therefore, the Black Prince may have eschewed his heraldry in the field for security reasons and was hence later dubbed the Black Prince.

The military defeats theory makes a lot of sense also.

Ummm yes..... Deathwing. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time. They're just keepin' it real.

Brusilov
29-06-2005, 23:08
I think the last reason for calling Edward the Black Prince is the right one, especially if it was written 200 years later. It was probably a way to make the man into some kind of dark evil figure because of his victories against the French. Propaganda, it's all about propaganda... :eyebrows:

As to the Deathwing and feathers, I don't know, the old DW minis never seemed too bizarre to me, after all Space Marines do come from feral worlds, so it's not unexpected that some of this heritage is left over.
As to mixing knights with Native American iconography, this kind of iconoclast mix is very much GW :rolleyes: I like it :eyebrows:

Democritus
29-06-2005, 23:55
IIRC the Dark Angels were mostly recruited from tribes from the plains (the whole theme of the Deathwing novel is an expedition to gather new recruits), thus the Native American theme.

The whole "Knightly Order" concept is engraved through the concept of Space Marines although "Monastic Order" might be more accurate. They are warrior-monks, warriors, yes, but monks above all. I don't really see the conflict with people who were plucked from their lives as hunter/gatherers, genetically altered and dispersed through the galaxy to fight. (although the brainwashing while keeping their cultural heritage is a bit of a mystery)

Although the monastic nature of the Space Marines has been present ever since their conception, i believe the "Knightly Hero, including personal heraldry" is just recently introduced with the latest version of C:SM, and not totally in line with the monastic theme. Yes, they are heroes, each and every one of them, but the fact that they live, fight and die, not for themselves or personal glory but for their chapter and ultimately the Emperor of Mankind sets them apart from the classic "Knight in shining armour" from the late middle ages.

The Dark Angels arn't the only chapter that will struggle with GW's latest fluff outburst. White Scars suffer the same problem basically. How to combine mongolian steppe riders with Knights Templar?

Brusilov
30-06-2005, 06:21
Democritus makes an excellent point in fact. The Knightly Order with heraldics does not fit with the Space Marines. Knights Templar did not have their own personal heraldics, they bore that of their order, out of piety and modesty

Emperor's Light
30-06-2005, 08:10
Rule of Cool wins again. It does seem to be self-aggrandizing for Space Marines to have their name painted in bold on the front of their armor chest plate. However, if it some devotional phrase that seems appropriate.

I don't mind Space Marine models each taking on individualized apperances. Suits cannibalize pieces from other suits. It also gives a medieval feel. The middle ages pre-date the industrial age, so artefacts do not look uniform in a mass manufactured way but rather individualized. The individualized appearance also seems to borrow from the type of individualized fine handiwork medieval monks performed, such as illumination. In this case, it is performed on armor rather than books.

The strange mish-mash background of the Deathwing has a lot to do with GW re-inventing the background of the Dark Angels. The secret society/monastic order feel of the Dark Angels is something from 2nd ed. 40K. When Bill King originally wrote "Death Wing" GW hadn't envisioned Dark Angels as they are today. So once they introduced the secret society/monastic order image they had to reconcile the old image with the new - leading to the strange mish-mash feel.

Personally, I think the old image of the Dark Angels fit better with the new way Space Marines are supposed to look. War paint, personal heraldry, battle trophies, and other fixtures of tribal warriors all add a sense of individual identity. On the other hand, the secret society/monastic order image actually promotes a rather uniform look - a bunch of faceless hooded robed figures.

Sephiroth
30-06-2005, 08:18
I don't mind Space Marine models each taking on individualized apperances. Suits cannibalize pieces from other suits. It also gives a medieval feel. The middle ages pre-date the industrial age, so artefacts do not look uniform in a mass manufactured way but rather individualized. The individualized appearance also seems to borrow from the type of individualized fine handiwork medieval monks performed, such as illumination. In this case, it is performed on armor rather than books.

I thought that was the point of having the different armour types mixed together, ie the snouted-visor, knee-joint-less greaves, etc.

In 2nd edition, all Space Marines wore identical armour, the Mk7, which made it feel mass-produced.

MidnightResistance
30-06-2005, 08:41
Also, in the Deathwing only characters get to display their personal heraldry. Members of the deathwing wear the chapter and 1st company badge.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b135/AdamsMiniatures/Random%20Stuff/deathwing_222.jpg

Here (if you squint) you can see that the captain has his own heraldic markings, while the troops do not.

This was also the case in Rogue Trader
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b135/AdamsMiniatures/Random%20Stuff/eb5f8185.jpg

It's interesting that the feathers are only added when the Dark Angels codex came out in 2nd edition with the rest of the monastic fluff.

Brusilov
30-06-2005, 17:21
You're making a good point Lightie on background being built on top of older things and leading to bizarre mix (but this has been the GW for ages).
Personally if I were to personalise Marines (which I wouldn't in fact because I no longer play them), I'd use trophies, purity seals, litanies of faith but not personal heraldry, that seems vain, especially coming from Space Marines.

Personally I think the new image fits better, it gives the DA a strong personality.
And I would also add the feathers and other tribal trophies would be an honour reserved for Terminators. After all Termies liberated that world from the Stealers and thus only they should get the honour of wearing the badges from these courageous Marines.
The white armour (or white robe) is extended to the whole Deathwing but not the feathers.

MidnightResistance
30-06-2005, 19:23
BRUSILOV oh god of fluff, does this mean that Deathwing members are also in veteran squads, wearing power armour?

Brusilov
30-06-2005, 19:50
They certainly are, and you can also find them in regular DA squads as improved veteran sergeants.
Members of the Deathwing are not only Terminators, they are the inner circle of the Chapter, and thus include members in power armour (veteran squads). After all the masters of the Chapter (Azrael, Ezekiel and Asmodai) all wear power armour.

MidnightResistance
30-06-2005, 21:40
But why are these power armoured guys who are of the first company not wearing bone colour armour, or wearing the broken sword icon?

Melchor
30-06-2005, 21:51
My Veteran Sergeants (who are members of the Deathwing) all wear bone coloured robes, which is the way for power armoured Dark Angels to denote their Deathwing status, they also bear the broken sword icon on their left shoulder pad just like Terminator Armoured Deathwing members.

Brusilov
30-06-2005, 21:58
Indeed, have you ever seen the power armour Deathwing Marines from GW?

Deathwing Space Marines (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060101195&orignav=10)

And have bought some I can tell you they have the broken sword shoulder pad as well.

MidnightResistance
30-06-2005, 23:12
Hey, that's really cool.

The only thing that always baffled me about the Dark Angels was that none of the lower rank troopers became curious about the broken swords.

"Hey sarge, how come the sword on your shoulder pad has a break in it?"
"Shut it Brother Adam! You're on bolter polishing duty for the rest of the century!"
"Oh man."

Brusilov
30-06-2005, 23:21
Interesting question, although the legend of the Broken Blade of the Lion might be common knowledge, but they wouldn't know the true story of how it was broken. It'd be a badge of honour to wear the broken sword on your shoulder pad, proving you on step closer to Lion himself, or somesuch.
It can be justified pretty easily.

Melchor
30-06-2005, 23:53
That would probably be it. The regular Dark Angels are either told half the myth (they may be told that Luthor was a traitor from another legion for example) or they may just be told that the broken sword is just another badge of honour. Like the Crux Terminatus.

MidnightResistance
01-07-2005, 08:10
I guess the Dark Angels would have had time to come up with a good excuse.

Melchor
01-07-2005, 08:42
"Only the awkward question; only the
foolish ask twice."

I think asking questions like that is pretty much weeded out at recuitment.
And besides, the regular DA simply wouldn't know any better than that the Veteran Sergeants wear robes and display en broken sword in their chapter badge. They'd probably think of them as nothing more than badges of office.

Brusilov
02-07-2005, 07:36
Indeed, after all if the DA work like a knightly order, the robes and broken sword would be thei badge of office, the proof that they have upheld the ideals of the Chapter and introduced within he inner circle.

Actually that's something tha I find worth discussing, what do the leaders of the DA tell the recruits about the death of their Primarch and the destruction of Caliban?
We all know the truth behind these events, but what are the lies the Marines are told?

Delicious Soy
02-07-2005, 08:23
I assume they'd simply say he fell in combat in the century long mopping up after the heresy or was lost to the warp ala Jagahatai Khan.

Lion El Jason
02-07-2005, 09:46
Originally the whole chapter was supposed to be based on the "plains people" from the Deathwing novel. It even states in the novel that their world is the only place the DA recruit from. Jervis basically decided that this was crap and so relegated the story to a tale of some dark angels at some point in their past.

Unfortunatly the models had been made by then and we're stuck with the decidedly non-gothic feathers and stuff.


After the cool new background (The best in 40k) was created for 2nd ed the Deathwing story was slowly forgotten and ignored and in current printings it has a disclaimer at the start basically saying " this story isn't true".

As for what the marines are told, I dont think a marine would think to question their superiors so they simply arent told.

Brusilov
02-07-2005, 22:39
Well, I would not dismiss this story out of hand. I don't remember seeing a disclaimer that would point out it is not true in the Deathwing anthology. And the story still serves as the justification for the white armour of the Deathwing. Thus being reprinted recently and the white armour demonstrate the validity of this story (incidently to me the best fluff is either the Star Child story or the SoB fluff).

The fate of the Primarch is part of the mystic of any Chapter, look at the Space Wolves, the Blood Angels, the Raven Guard or even the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists. The disappearance/death of their Primarch is always an event of utmost importance.
I can hardly see the DA dismissing the disappearance of their father as unimportant in the teaching of their novices.

IG88
03-07-2005, 01:28
I think that a new recruit to the Dark Angels probably follows a path like so:
- gets taught standard Space Marine history and general Dark Angel history
- hears a load of malarkey about what happened to the Primarch, the Lion Sword, and Caliban (something like "Those damn Space Wolves blew it up!")
- is monitored to see how faithful they are to the Chapter and how inquisitive they are about the Chapter's past. Those that don't seem like they could handle to truth are coincidentally passed up for promotion every time.
- upon induction to the Deathwing, the Marine is told about the Fallen ("Remember that time we were on that one planet looking for that one guy and everybody refused to tell you why? Yeah, well...")
- as progress continues, more and more of the Chapter's true history is revealed. If the Marine is suspected at any time of having less than vise-tight lips, he'll probably mysteriously disappear in the night.

The Dark Angels, to me, seem like they'd have tons of secrets from the outside world and from each other. There're probably things that only Ezekiel (and probably Cypher) know, not even Azrael. I mean, if the Inner Circle is willing to pull the wool over the eyes of the non-veteran Marines, who's to say that even once you get into the Deathwing they're telling you the whole story?

Brusilov
03-07-2005, 08:40
Personally I would say that the DA would not blame the SW for the destruction of Caliban, they may not like them, but telling recruits such things would portray the SW as nothing less than traitors. The two Chapters can still fight alongside each other when the need arise, they're both servants of the Emperor. An unidentified Chaos force would be better.

And it's pretty obvious that the compartimentalisation of knowledge on the history of the Chapter continues even after a battle brother is inducted into the Deathwing.

sulla
04-07-2005, 07:01
It would be quite good (when the Dark Angel codex is re-done) to have a story tracing a Dark Angel from recruitment though to induction into the deathwatch, showing the glorious stories he is fed at the beginning and his gradual realisaton as he progresses through the outer circles of just how dark his chapter's history is and how close they came to betrayal. He could progress from agrrogant young superman to humble monk to hunter of the fallen. It could play on the secrecy and distrust within the chapter...

After all, there's never ben a heck of a lot different between the DA and codex marines. Now, with traits, we see that many marine chapters are more divergent from the codex than even the DA. So, the real difference is the history and mood of the chapter and it's successors. I imagine the fiction and artwork in the book will play on this.

Brusilov
04-07-2005, 10:10
that would actually be an excellent idea and would also justify partially the size of the Codex as all Chapter specific Codex are supposed to be full size, meaning we can hope for good chunks of fluff.

Incidently, it may just be a mistake on your part, but I guess you meant Deathwing, didn't you?

EmperorsChamp01
04-07-2005, 10:18
Yea the Death wing was origonally paintd black. But then a group of Deathwing guyz saved the planet from a Tyrinad invasion so their army was panited Bone white to signigfi(sp) valor