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Stalin MkII
13-10-2006, 04:09
I was thinking of it and a few questions arose dealing with the DAoT

1. Was there any central government? (like an earth based republic or local deals)
2. how did they travel? I understand it was warp, but did they have astropathes for communication and navigators to get around?
3. what exactly ended it? aka what started the age of strife, I've read and been told different reasons for the end.
4. Did all the different armies have access to power armour bolter etc.?
And on another note, were the current gothic chaos fleet what their ships be like, or completely different.?

I took a quick look through these here forums and came up with nothing, so i'm asking myself

Thankyou

Kromando33
13-10-2006, 10:35
Surposedly ended because psychers and mutation started mass appearing everywhere as the warp was going crazy, warp storms engulfed terra so all the human planets became isolated, which caused the Age of Strife.

I am pretty sure during the DAOT humans used warp travel to colonise the galaxy, thus when the warp storms isolated much of the planets, and warp travel impossible, the human worlds descended into anarchy and chaos. Not much is known of the central government of that time, but in tune with the AoS I assume humanity has still divided as they are today.

So during the DAOT they would have had astropaths to navigate the warp, but I assume it was much more unpredictable and dangerous without the Astronomicron, which ended up with most of the colonists getting lost. They wouldn't have had bolters of PW though, as the proto Space Marines appeared at the end of the AoS and united Terra, and after the warpstorms subsided (possibly by the Fall of the Eldar?) the Emperor built the astronomicon, made an alliance with Mars to create the Imperium, and set out on his Great Crusade. And the rest as they say, is history...

Voronwe[MQ]
13-10-2006, 10:50
Navigators was created during the Dark Age of Technology, and the equivalent of astropaths was non-astronomican powered psykers, although things was decentralized and standardisation overall was, well, non-existent.

malika
13-10-2006, 13:25
Well, also note that STC technology was more common, so lots of Land Raider, Rhinos and weird STC Titans and such.

I dont think there was a central Earth government


3. what exactly ended it? aka what started the age of strife, I've read and been told different reasons for the end.
Well, the creation of the Iron Men and the war against these Iron Men was one of the causes, also the manifestation of uncontrollable psychers and the coming of the warpstorms due to the Eldar madness.

Voronwe[MQ]
13-10-2006, 14:05
Life was very un-authoritarian generally, supposedly democratic and definitely freely capitalistic (hint from Navis Nobilite background info), which is not to say that all's well, but much, much better than to live in the Imperium. Suggestion: think like nowadays, though in space.

malika
13-10-2006, 14:21
Hmm I imagine a more extreme form of capitalism, more similar to what you could see in 80s sci fi films, kind of imagine the Weyland Yutani Coporation and US Colonial Marines from the Alien franchise

schoon
13-10-2006, 15:14
1. Was there any central government? (like an earth based republic or local deals)
2. how did they travel? I understand it was warp, but did they have astropathes for communication and navigators to get around?Both fluff and records of exactly what took place during that time are sketchy at best. However:

1 - Yes, sort of - fluff mentions that many (though not all) of the colonies during that age were federated with Terra.
2 - Obviously the Warp, but details are not given in anything I've seen.

3. what exactly ended it? aka what started the age of strife, I've read and been told different reasons for the end.Kromando33 covered this one fairly well.
4. Did all the different armies have access to power armour bolter etc.?4 - What they used would likely have no resemblance to the armour and weapons in the current version of the game. Since the Dark Age of Technology was also the Golden Age of Technology it would likely be far more advanced than anything in 40K.
And on another note, were the current gothic chaos fleet what their ships be like, or completely different.?Completely different - even the oldest Chaos ships in BFG were developed post-M30, and the DAoT was in the M20s.

Hope that helps...

Llothlian
13-10-2006, 15:22
So during the DAOT they would have had astropaths to navigate the warp, but I assume it was much more unpredictable and dangerous without the Astronomicron, which ended up with most of the colonists getting lost.

Warp travel was a lot more predicable and infinately safer. The warp became unstable with the birth of Slaanesh and the psychic shock wave produced by the death of the Eldar.

Voronwe[MQ]
13-10-2006, 15:30
Slaanesh's 'warp spirit' can then be postulated as a enormous siren-manifestation in the warp, I believe.

Terminatorphoenix
13-10-2006, 15:46
here's where i disagree with most people.I see the galaxy in the 18th to 25th millenium(i think that was the time) simillar to the italien city states.

Terra would function as a vatican type place,In theory all the planets in terrandum(thats gonna come back and bite me in the ass) owe thier allegance to terra but they still operate independently.

Foremost of the colonies would be mars,heaviy connected to old terra but still independantly.Ultramar would be a very liberal plce before the age of strife (ide like to point out that there's no proof of this but hell rule of cool).

my cab fair

Stingray_tm
13-10-2006, 16:36
I think we all agree, that no matter how life was there exactly, it defenitely was way better than the Imperium.

Voronwe[MQ]
13-10-2006, 16:40
Definitely agreed.

I am the Monkey King
13-10-2006, 17:13
Am I the only one who remembers references to the Empire of Blood then?

Brother Smith
13-10-2006, 17:19
D/GAoT Tech?

Anything you want.

Commander Ozae
13-10-2006, 17:34
Pretty much they could do anything with their tech because they understood it and i'm hoping there was still innovation but i'm not sure.

Voronwe[MQ]
13-10-2006, 22:34
There was innovation... Technology developed good. Unlike in the 41st millenium.

Hellebore
14-10-2006, 04:17
They could do alot of things, but don't start applying mythology to their abilities, ie that because it was in the days of yore when everything was better they could do anything.

I would imagine Humans would possess all the high end 40k technology as basic equipment, and that's about it.

Antigrav would be common, plasma common, melta common, no one would use a lasgun, they'd probably use a hellgun at the least.

Humanity didn't become puissiant during the Golden Age, they merely understood technology.

A hellgun for instance probably didn't need giant cables and a backpack to fire.

I would imagine that all the technology would be advanced in materials, rather than design so much. ie they could build fusion pistols easily, or a pistol sized hellgun, rather than literally make super l33t u8er weapons of doom just because they were from the golden age.


So what does this mean? They had all the best 40k equipment commonly, and it lacked skulls and gothic stupidity, and was 1/2 the size of modern equipment, but in output it was pretty much the same.

Humanity certainly couldn't 'control the stars' as the eldar could, and were never as advanced as them. They did however possess WELL BUILT stuff, unlike modern equipment.

Hellebore

Endemion
14-10-2006, 16:20
Warp travel was a lot more predicable and infinately safer. The warp became unstable with the birth of Slaanesh and the psychic shock wave produced by the death of the Eldar.

IIRC, the storms were ended by the birth of Slaanesh, their cause was more likely his gestation

lapis_lazuli
14-10-2006, 22:00
Since the Dark Age of Technology was also the Golden Age of Technology it would likely be far more advanced than anything in 40K.

Perhaps the two were synonymous in 2nd ed. and earlier (an interpretation I prefer TBH), but in the current background material the Golden Age comes before the Dark Age (i.e. prior to M21).


Am I the only one who remembers references to the Empire of Blood then?

IIRC the Empire of Blood was another name for Goge Vandire's reign circa M36 - The Age of Apostasy.

But I agree that life in the Dark Age of Technology wasn't as peachy as everyone seems to think. I believe human society was still largely theocratic and xenophobic (although perhaps not to the extremes of the Imperium). After all, what else could compel us parochial human beings to embark on such a dangerous and expensive escapade as colonising the entire galaxy, but a belief in manifest destiny?

As for technology, I think the people of the Imperium are mythologising the past to a large degree. Certainly, DAoT-era people understood their technology in a way the Imperials do not, but the general level of technology was the same, just more robust and user-friendly. Also, high-end gear would have still been in regular production, unlike in the Imperium where items of archaeotech are treated as relics. But I don't believe a plasma cannon, say, could be considered "basic equipment" your humble colonist would be able to grab as he pleased.

Of course, this all just my opinion, and the mysterious nature of the DAoT means all of us are right. :D

Norminator
14-10-2006, 23:29
I always look at the DaoT Humans as Tau but a bit more advanced (maybe with technology equivilant to the higher end Imperial stuff).

Kage2020
15-10-2006, 12:21
Well, to put it in my terms (and the older terms of GURPS 3e), the G/DAoT society was maximised at around TL 12 and very early TL 13. This is in comparison with the Imperium of the modern period (average TL 7-8, adeptus mechanicus TL of 10 and early 11, with archaeotech 12/13), the Eldar (pre-Fall TL 14-15, post-Fall TL 13, remnant 14-15), the Tau (TL9-10), the Necron (TL14-15), etc.

As to the synonymous nature of the GAoT and the DAoT, it was my belief that they were in the earlier material. With that said, if you wanted to finely categorise it then one might argue that the GAoT did come before the DAoT, i.e. the period at which humanity was developing its technology rather than a period when others argue that the Iron Men were doing it for them.

In the absence of any decent material on the period, though, it becomes hard to really offer a definition. Of course, my feeling would be that if GW were to describe the period then it would conform to the latter... <sigh>

Kage

Voronwe[MQ]
15-10-2006, 13:59
Perhaps the two were synonymous in 2nd ed. and earlier (an interpretation I prefer TBH), but in the current background material the Golden Age comes before the Dark Age (i.e. prior to M21).

But I agree that life in the Dark Age of Technology wasn't as peachy as everyone seems to think. I believe human society was still largely theocratic and xenophobic (although perhaps not to the extremes of the Imperium). After all, what else could compel us parochial human beings to embark on such a dangerous and expensive escapade as colonising the entire galaxy, but a belief in manifest destiny?

Of course, this all just my opinion, and the mysterious nature of the DAoT means all of us are right. :D

Even in more 'recent' background material, the Golden Age of Technology and the Dark age of Technology is synonymous; it just depends upon who you ask (A member of the Adeptus Mechanicus would view it as the Golden Age of Technology, and all others as the Dark Age of Technology).

Have it ever occured to you that humanity must be stoic, tolerant, understanding, pragmatic and good enough to not rush head on into something but sit back and give the thing a second thought and use deep, critizicing historical experience as a valuable tool of approaching the universe at large to even having reached as far as they did in the G/DAoT? Don't believe that we will be able to do it thoroughly ever if Status Quo would occur on the presently common na&#239;ve, demagogic, narrow-minded and intolerant views of things in general.

lapis_lazuli
15-10-2006, 15:03
Keeper Cripias' thorough account in the 3rd ed. rulebook differentiates quite clearly between the Golden Age and the Dark Age, although the Keepers' point of view is only one of many - possibly other scholars consider the two periods synonymous. I do prefer your view, though. The terms could be synonymous simply because, while virtually nothing is known of the period outside of the AdMech (hence Dark), the prevailing belief among the denizens of 40k is that things were better in the past (hence Golden).

As to your second point, your view of the period as a happy-happy fun land populated by people who share modern progressive values is, of course, perfectly valid - as I stated previously, we just don't know enough to say either way. Personally, I don't see why humanity has to have all those virtues you describe to become hi-tech. The Sumerians and Egyptians, for example, made great advances in technology, medicine and astronomy and took great interest in analysing their own history, while also being superstitious and dominated by theocracies.

It seems to me there has to be an irresistible motivation for mankind to take to the stars in such numbers - I mean, we don't really need the living space and resources of an entire galaxy do we? So my interpretation is that humanity was goaded by their theocratic leaders (the Golden Men?) into feeling a sacred obligation to claim the stars. I don't see a DAoT dominated by democracy and tolerance, frankly. But that's just my interpretation.

Hellebore
15-10-2006, 15:21
Golden before iron men, dark after?

It's all a matter of perspective, but when you think about the Imperium's views on technology, WHO would actually call it the GOLDEN age of TECHNOLOGY?

It seems more like a 3rd person narrative title, where the narrator has no overt bias toward the topic.

Perhaps the Mechanicus would call it the Golden age, but no one else would be caught dead saying anything other than it was a souless, evil and DARK AGE.

Hellebore

Voronwe[MQ]
15-10-2006, 15:52
Okay, you're all right, though I didn't meant it was 'happy-happy modern (that treacherous word) values', as we don't have them, and just because one could have them, it would not be 'happy-happy', but rather more stoic, in a robust way. Life is never easy, and the complexity of the universe makes directly for implications, and then we have our social dynamics, although their worst effects would be lessened by a more stoic and thorough view of things.

lapis_lazuli
15-10-2006, 16:27
Golden before iron men, dark after?

It's all a matter of perspective, but when you think about the Imperium's views on technology, WHO would actually call it the GOLDEN age of TECHNOLOGY?

Just dug out my old rulebook; Cripias puts the end of the Golden Age at the point when the Golden Men become too dependent on hi-tech goodies and lose their power over the Stone Men. Then we get to the Dark Age of Technology, Golden Men disappear, Iron Men created etc. It's telling that it's just the Golden Age (not 'of Technology') contrasted with the Dark Age of Technology. So, yes, I think you're correct on the general populace's prevailing attitude towards technology. My mistake.

@Voronwe[MQ]: Stoic, fair enough. I guess a good example of pragmatism and zeal going hand-in-hand would be the Tau. Their motivations may be unquestioning obedience to the Ethereals (Farsight notwithstanding) and utter devotion to the philsophy of the Greater Good, but their methods of achieving this goal are rational and measured.

Bran Dawri
15-10-2006, 17:13
After all, what else could compel us parochial human beings to embark on such a dangerous and expensive escapade as colonising the entire galaxy, but a belief in manifest destiny?


Population pressure?

Also, in earlier fluff sources, the Fall of the Eldar was long before humanity even went to the stars, which makes a lot more sense to me.

I mean, why would a powerful race such as the eldar allow a second powerful empire arise in the same galaxy?

lapis_lazuli
15-10-2006, 17:31
That would be some huge population pressure to need a million worlds' worth of living space!

I think someone suggested in an earlier thread that the Eldar were too self-absorbed in the millennia leading up the Fall to do anything about humanity.

Zzarchov
15-10-2006, 19:38
I believe its refered to as the "Dark Ages" because all the high tech goodness was viewed as making humans weak and imoral.

Robot armies did all the fighting, and eventually rebelled..nearly whiping out humanity if not for loyalist robots (who were rewarded with death)

I view humanity at that time as nearly devolving into the type of species found in "Time Machine" (the novel).. A useless twit race being eaten by molochs for food (Molochs would be the stone men I guess?)

Norminator
15-10-2006, 20:05
Stone men are humanity though? Surely the Emperor is the last of the Golden Men, the stone men being left in the 40k humans.

Personally I don't think that Stone/Golden men are different subspecies, the difference being based more on philosophical and general outlook on life more than anything else.

Zzarchov
15-10-2006, 21:25
I always thought Stonemen were the Abhumans, kind of like how alot of sci-fi has humanity keeping "clone" slaves, or genetically engineered slave humans.

Commander Ozae
15-10-2006, 23:21
The problem with that is that the legend states that the Golden Men were wiped out so by default the humans are either what's left of the Golden Men or the Stone Men. I always thought the Golden Men were the aristocracy and the workers/lower classes were the Stone men.

Zzarchov
16-10-2006, 00:29
where did it state they were whiped out?
I thought they were just massacred, scattered to the winds type of deal, not outright extinct.

Commander Ozae
16-10-2006, 00:47
I think it was in a quote from Realms of Chaos, sorry i don't have the specific quote, maybe Kage or Khaine's Messenger can supply it. Until that time, please disregard my comment.

Voronwe[MQ]
16-10-2006, 13:45
Just dug out my old rulebook; Cripias puts the end of the Golden Age at the point when the Golden Men become too dependent on hi-tech goodies and lose their power over the Stone Men. Then we get to the Dark Age of Technology, Golden Men disappear, Iron Men created etc. It's telling that it's just the Golden Age (not 'of Technology') contrasted with the Dark Age of Technology. So, yes, I think you're correct on the general populace's prevailing attitude towards technology. My mistake.

@Voronwe[MQ]: Stoic, fair enough. I guess a good example of pragmatism and zeal going hand-in-hand would be the Tau. Their motivations may be unquestioning obedience to the Ethereals (Farsight notwithstanding) and utter devotion to the philsophy of the Greater Good, but their methods of achieving this goal are rational and measured.

Right, you saw what I missed to write; that such things (fortunately) has little to do with technology, but that the utilization ways and priorities are dependant of such things.