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Arkio
13-10-2006, 16:57
Hi guys, its my first time on the forums and I need your help. I've been racking my brains for what army to take to the GT final and have setled on high elves cos they're my favourites. However i'm stuck between 3 or so lists so far. Please take a look at these for me. Any help/comments/advice would be great!

LIST 1

Teclis 630

Mage, Seer, lvl 2 160
Mage, Seer, lvl 2, dispel scoll 180

10 Archers 120
10 Archers 120
10 Archers 120

2 Bolt Throwers 200

5 Silver Helms, Heavy armour, shields, full command 150
5 Silver Helms, Heavy armour, shields, full command 150

2 chariots 170

total points 2000

LIST 2

Tyrion 585

Commander, elven steed, barding, lance, lion guard, shield 138
Commander, elven steed, barding, Heavy armour, Banner of The World Dragon 151
Both commanders go in the dragon princes.

6 Dragon Princes, Full command, Blessed Tome, Lion Std 251

5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95

5 chariots 425

3 Great Eagles 150

Total points 1985

LIST 3

High Elf Prince, Dragon, Heavy armour, Lance, Golden Shield, Loremasters cloak. 532

Commander, elven steed, barding, lance, lion guard, shield 138
Commander, elven steed, barding, Heavy armour, Banner of The World Dragon 151
Both commanders go in the dragon princes.

8 Dragon Princes, Full command, Blessed Tome, Lion Std 303

5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95

4 Chariots 340

5 Shadow Warriors 75
5 Shadow Warriors 75

2 Great Eagles 100

Arkio
14-10-2006, 16:46
Come on guys help me out here!

gortexgunnerson
15-10-2006, 12:39
Ok, i'll start with a little cavat, in that you have qualified for the final and from first glance all 3 lists look quite viscious tournment lists so i'm not saying saying the lists are bad as you are obviously a strong player, I'll just point out what i would consider pontential isssues in each list for points to think about

List 1

My main 2 areas of worry is the points effectiveness of teclis withou being albe to use other mages dice. He'll have up to 7 a turn if my memory is correct which is 2 spells a turn so I suppose he effectiveness is still quite high. But under 6th Teclis might be getting 3 a turn a big difference. So I would say is he really worth close to double the points when compared to a Lv4 with a book of hoeth. Albe to cast twice a turn with about a third of spells being irrestialbe on 3 dice. That would free up 200 points for troops other stuff. As I feel the risk is Teclis is the only factor that can win the game for the list, the other elements can have effect but a good game from him (now sound like some sort of sports coach) and a game could be won, but without him the rest of the list will be eaten by your oppenents tournment list.

My second worry is the spilt in theme betweent the 2 halfs of the force, you have 500 points of offensive troops which im not sure on the role of. If they are held back amount the archers and bolt throwers and used to counter at the last minute as the enemy approaches. If this is the case I think this is a good idea but the troop choice is wrong and too many points are commited to upgrades such as command groups. If you are intending to go forward with these troops I think they are a total waste of points. 5 Silver helms really don't have the punch to worry combat units and dont have the manovre ability to worry missile units at the back. And if your thinking combined charge, remember GT environment. People design combat units to take the charge of Khorne knights as their expected to be plentyful and hence they should be designed in a way that would walk though a double chariot charge/silver helms. The units are also not particularly robust to missile fire. 5 is a very fragile number the normal effectiveness of the high elf cavalry charge is that their is lots of fast targets and they are on you so quickly, here their is 10 models that can do in 2 and 2 other models that can do it in 2/3.

You could argue that if they are shooting the little attacking force then they aren't attacking the very soft back of the army which would be great. But in reference to what I said above about combat effectiveness I would advance my combat units, then spilt my shooting between everything in range would hammer Teclis's unit and then what wasnt in range would shoot chariots and silver helms. On that note how are you intending to protect Teclis? Is he going in one of the archer units and then relieing on pure of heart to avoid panic tests after the missile barrage, then swap unit? What is your tactic for dealing with Beastherds or tunnel teams which with a high number of attacks and potential combat res (beast herd) are likely to eat an archer unit in combat.

List 2

I would say I always found 6/7 a much better number then 5 as I like to assume a death or 2 allong the way and still like to have combat effectiveness. Though this army falls under the traditional cavalry army in that you can relie on the high number of targets on the board to protect units. This is particularly prominent in this list as am making the assumption you are fielding Tyrion and 2 commanders in the dragon princes (having reviewed your item choice I now think this is wrong as you have the blessed tome (+1 Ld if I remember correctly and Tyrion is already 10 and hence the item would be useless in this set up. How are you playing Tyrion) and hence every bit of fire availble is likely to be brought to bear. This is a tough unit, faster then any cavalry of its class, immune to magic and with 3 characters has enough combat punch to knock though most units. The risk to this is holder units. If a unit that is difficult to get rid of so most armies will try and hold it in place nd make it waste time e.g. a raised zombie unit in the flank is not a threat to this unit but if they can get 2D6+2 zombies a turn raised onto it will be a pain to kill off as will have ranks and a flank, and you will only be albe to get 2 models in combat (as the turn to face rule is buggered) so even with Tyrion and a commander you only have 8 attacks or so hitting on 3s. So at 6 kills and down slightly on combat res bonus you might get 10 killed a turn. If they can raise on average 9.5 a turn on 1 spell theirs a chance you could be held for the game. Then you have 1000 points facing 2000. This is an extreme example but it highlights a risk. Most players will happy though a few hundred points in to hold you even for a turn or 2. Against a similar list when I was playing Goblins I got a pump wagon into a unit of dragon princes and by the time he'd cut it up their were any other high elves on the board.

I think 5 chariots is over kill, high elf chariots are fast and have an awesome charge but they are not the real combat threat of beastman chariots. Beastman chariot army uses them to attack with several chariots on a unit. Using the additional str5 and str 6 nits plus the higher impact strength an important difference. I cannot see HE chariots even 3 at once breaking a ranked unit (againt empire swordmen 10.5 hits, 7 wounds, 5 kills being generous. 3 ranks, banner, outnumbering, muscian swordmen win). Hence they are more a supporting role, in which case you have more chariots then units they support. Due to their high points cost I feel these points would be better freed up for other uses.

List 3

I think is the probably the most effective list as all elements are focused towards the speed and combat abilities of the army. The army slightly lacks versaltility and its very much relient on attacking and hence will suffer against powerhouse combat armies which are also looking to reach combat. I would say that the main weakness which jumps to light is that you lord has really poor armour against shooting. Its a large target worth a lot of points and hence you just fire heavy amount of missile fire and artillery in. A direct hit from a stone thrower or great cannon and you could be in trouble. The weapon you must fear would be a hellblaster hit which with a good role could kill both the rider and dragon in 1 shot.


Right thats a rough summary of any weaknesses I can see in the lists, I would go with List 3 for the tournments as the special characters though good are not really worth their points in the tournemnt scene where games are only 6 turns. For List 3 I would alter the Dragon riders items, but he would then lose his magic protection which might what he needs so it is a toss up on whether you think your face guns or magic

Good luck in the final and hopefully I'll see you there, am playing in heat 3 with my dwarfs. Haven't decided on my list yet, as my Dwarfs I have run since start of 6th doesn't convert into 7th. So am agonising over the last 200 points and which units are getting cut out and replaced

Tutore
15-10-2006, 12:49
gortexgunnerson's comment is really good, I suggest to take advice from his review. I don't like lists 2 and 3 because of the special character and other things. Special characters are always tricky. They also cost much. List 3 is good, although a little bit "boring": you use only a few number of different troops.

Arkio
15-10-2006, 17:54
Thanks for all the comments, i'm def taking them on board. The main idea behind Tyrion and Teclis is that I like the models to be honest and it woul be a tough challenge to make a good list out of them. I made a mistake with list 2, they dont have the blessed tome, whoops! Do in list 3 though.

In answer to questions tho, teclis can cast spells with unlimited range so protecting him is mainly a matter of clever deployment to be honest. The kind of split in attack and static movement in his army is taht the helms and chariots get forward to slow the enemy advance while to the mages rob people of their magic items and bombard them with spells along with the missile troops. But I think this is the weakest of the lists.

2nd force has over a thousand points in a unit which you have to kill with missile fire and it will be on combat on the 2nd turn. Ive found that in a tournament setting that victory rests on not losing your 2 most high points units and destroying ur opponents. Having a bit of points denial helps so much. But again I am taking a good look at ur comments and seeing how I can mess aroudn with the list.

Same comments go for the 3rd list!

I finished 11th at this years heat one with an ogre army, but high elves are my first love.

Piece of advice for you: Take thorek Ironbrow, a gunline and some solid infantry. I saw that army finish 2nd this year and everyone else who had thorek in his army qualified. He just slows everything down and then the cannons, bolt throwers and organ guns do the rest. Nasty!

gortexgunnerson
15-10-2006, 18:51
Well Im taking the same army I have always played for many years just in its just getting updated for the current edition. When I need the variety I swap armies and I normally do a new army per tournment I play depending on my mood. But I love my dwarfs and now you just win and get 20 points they are suddenly potentially competitive. As I took them 2 years ago and scored 3 wins 3 draws and full marks on everything else. Had the games been just a few turns longer it would have been 6 masscres as in the 3 draws I had broke their units and they had rallied behond my attack range. 36" in a straight line form depolment lol as dwarfs in a 6 turn game it takes 6 turns to reach your oppenets table edge in a straight line can be very frustrating.

My army is pretty settled so not too kean on putting a special character as it would meet replacing my Lord who has fought battles for many years and never fallen. When a model performs like that you can't bench him until he dies and then he's at risk of getting replaced.

I play a solid block of ironbreakers, some clansmen, loads of missile troops with shields mainly crossbowmen, miners/bolt thrower, stone thrower, cannon, organ gun. It sounds very gunlines esk but most of the points are actually on combat units.

Have also got a a bit of rivalry with Dodge_Ed over our clubs master Dwarf player so we are taking an identical line up. Their hopefully going to be theme around it too with slightly gun slinging dwarfs engineers but not sure if we have time. The 2 armies are called the Good, the Bad and the Stunty lol.

It is a pretty competetive list but not as good as I could do with special characters or a specially chosen list, but I though I stick to what I know. Unfortunately me and Ed like to drink on the friday then drink from 6 on saturday so my sunday is always alittle hazy. I rarely drop a point on the saturday and then I am so screwed on Sunday so I settle for nice simple tactics. The worst example was at reserection blood bowl. I had 60 out of 60 and had just beat the guy that had won all the run up tournments. We drank for 10 straight hours in hard core style and I just couldnt play on the sunday.

To summarise I am sticking to my trusted army as have to consider the ability to play with a huge hangover on the sunday. Its not too bad as 4.5 should be good to qualify with full marks on everything else. Also I ahve to admit with work commitments I dont get to play much anymore and apart from the Battle for skull pass opening day (fought with mine and dodgy Eds 27,000 dwarf army) I haven't played any games under 7th. So dont think their time to learn new rules and redesign the army before the heats. Might do something for the final if I qualify.

But cheers for the advice and hopefully I'll see you in the final potentail across the board

Tobias
15-10-2006, 19:00
Why loremaster cloack on loard if he hasn't got a scroll
I suggest a lvl 1 scroll cadie
Lion Guard is a waste of the points, giveh im sacred insense ;) or something
BUt they're all really tournament lists I would suggest a list with spearmen and stuff, but yeah whatever :P

(list 3 btw)

Arkio
15-10-2006, 20:45
Why loremaster cloack on loard if he hasn't got a scroll
I suggest a lvl 1 scroll cadie
Lion Guard is a waste of the points, giveh im sacred insense ;) or something
BUt they're all really tournament lists I would suggest a list with spearmen and stuff, but yeah whatever :P

(list 3 btw)

Basically Loremasters cloak gives 2+ ward save against spells, so he's fairly hard to kill with magic. The dragon princes are immune to spells so not much point in having scrolls to be honest as all the things I dont want to be killed by magic cant be! Lion guard makes the unit stubborn and as they are ld 10 with a battle standard and nearly a 1000 points I dnt want em to run off and to be able to take on lots of stuff if they cant break a unit on the charge. I think sacred insence is great but the dragon princes should be in combat on turn 2 so hopefully they wont get hit by too much missile fire. Obviously theres the threat of cannons and hellblasters but sacred insence wnt help against that lol!

However I will def try it.

Arkio
15-10-2006, 20:46
But cheers for the advice and hopefully I'll see you in the final potentail across the board

cheers fella!

Tobias
16-10-2006, 08:41
OOps mixed up Loremaster cloack with the honour. But yeah the list will be hard to beat :P

Frankly
16-10-2006, 09:49
LIST 3

High Elf Prince, Dragon, Heavy armour, Lance, Golden Shield, Loremasters cloak. 532

Commander, elven steed, barding, lance, lion guard, shield 138
Commander, elven steed, barding, Heavy armour, Banner of The World Dragon 151
Both commanders go in the dragon princes.

8 Dragon Princes, Full command, Blessed Tome, Lion Std 303

5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95

4 Chariots 340

5 Shadow Warriors 75
5 Shadow Warriors 75

2 Great Eagles 100

I tohught this is a very good HE tournament list, hard to beat, lots of combined charge options. Hard for opponants in the shooting and magic phase for target selection. I've always thought that terror is a great tool in tournaments.

Arkio
16-10-2006, 11:25
thanks for that, weight of oppinion seems to be going this way!

Tobias
16-10-2006, 13:11
ANd I see this now ...

You've got 5 special choices

And you didn't pay for the bsb option

Xavier
16-10-2006, 13:27
Yea, 5 special choices and 24 points over by my count.

Could lose 5 shadow warriors and take a third great eagle perhaps or perhaps more items for your lord.

Arkio
16-10-2006, 14:13
Whoops! Yep ur right, i'll re-think it and pop up another list!

Arkio
16-10-2006, 14:23
High Elf Prince, Dragon, Heavy armour, Lance, Golden Shield, Loremasters cloak, Amulet of purifying flame . 547

Commander, elven steed, barding, lance, lion guard, shield 138
Commander, elven steed, barding, Heavy armour, Banner of The World Dragon 156
Both commanders go in the dragon princes.

8 Dragon Princes, Full command, Blessed Tome, Lion Std 303

5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95

4 Chariots 340

5 Shadow Warriors 75

3 Great Eagles 150

Ok that should be it sorted! 1986 pts

ewar
16-10-2006, 15:14
Looks like a very powerful army - I'm going to heat 2 of the UK GT, and this has scared me! As a GT virgin, I was hoping for slightly fewer 'power' armies like this one. Still, I always bang on about balanced armies... nows my chance to prove their worth!

Tobias
16-10-2006, 19:16
You still didn't pay for the bsb option
And why don't you give the other commander armour?

Arkio
16-10-2006, 20:48
You still didn't pay for the bsb option
And why don't you give the other commander armour?

Yeah I did, high elf commanders are only 70 points basic, 25 for battle standard. 40 for banner, 12 for steed, 5 for barding, 4 for heavy armour 156

Nd lack of heavy armour is a mistake on my part! So that commander should be 4 more points and army 1990!

Arkio
16-10-2006, 20:51
Looks like a very powerful army - I'm going to heat 2 of the UK GT, and this has scared me! As a GT virgin, I was hoping for slightly fewer 'power' armies like this one. Still, I always bang on about balanced armies... nows my chance to prove their worth!

Thanks very much for that! I think 'balanced army' is a relative term to be honest. Armies can be balanced for tournament play and be totally out of place in a friendly game! Armies that are balanced for friendly games will be very comptitive against other armies balanced for friendly play but against armies designed to win the GT they will sadly struggle.
This is mainly due to the fact that most tournament armies do one thing very well while balanced armies tend to spread their abilities around and dilute their killing/defensive power.
Of course the skill of the 2 players comes into it and so does luck!
Just my thoughts!

enyoss
17-10-2006, 03:32
Yeah I did, high elf commanders are only 70 points basic, 25 for battle standard. 40 for banner, 12 for steed, 5 for barding, 4 for heavy armour 156

Nd lack of heavy armour is a mistake on my part! So that commander should be 4 more points and army 1990!

Banner of the World Dragon isn't 40 points though ;)

The list looks kind of tough but not too interesting to play with. Depends what floats your boat though I suppose.

Cheers,

enyoss

Arkio
17-10-2006, 07:46
High Elf Prince, Dragon, Heavy armour, Lance, Golden Shield, Loremasters cloak. 532

Commander, elven steed, barding, lance, lion guard, Heavy armour, shield 142
Commander, elven steed, barding, Heavy armour, Banner of The World Dragon 176
Both commanders go in the dragon princes.

8 Dragon Princes, Full command, Blessed Tome, Lion Std 303

5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95

4 Chariots 340

5 Shadow Warriors 75

3 Great Eagles 150

Ok that should be it sorted! 1995 pts

Tobias
17-10-2006, 10:43
I think it is 2003 points ;)

Arkio
17-10-2006, 23:36
Will the curse of the badly added up list never end!!! Lol

High Elf Prince, Dragon, Heavy armour, Lance, Golden Shield, Loremasters cloak. 532

Commander, elven steed, lance, lion guard, Heavy armour, shield 137
Commander, elven steed, barding, Heavy armour, Banner of The World Dragon 176
Both commanders go in the dragon princes.

8 Dragon Princes, Full command, Blessed Tome, Lion Std 303

5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95
5 Silver Helms 95

4 Chariots 340

5 Shadow Warriors 75

3 Great Eagles 150

Total points 1998!!!

Tutore
18-10-2006, 08:04
Poor commander. He had to take a non-barded steed in order to go to battle! He´ll complain with the Phoenix King.

Tobias
18-10-2006, 17:12
Drop the musican on the dragon Princes(can't have LD 11)
and get your barding back