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CELS
13-10-2006, 23:47
Sorry to start another Space Marine thread that has probably been done a dozen times in the past, but I was casually looking through my good old Codex: Ultramarines when I found mention of the following ranks.

Master's Secretarius
Lord of the Household
Chapter's Armourer
Victuallers
Commander of the Arsenal
Commander of the Watch

Apparently, these are 'some ranks described by the Codex', suggesting that there are more ranks for senior officers. Now, I have two questions for you. First of all, could someone provide me with a good description of what the positions above entail? Preferably based on similar positions in real military organisations. For example, what is the difference between the Chapter's Armourer and the Commander of the Arsenal?
Second question; does anyone have any good suggestions for other possible ranks? Again, basing your suggestions on real life military organisations would be appreciated.

Oh, and feel free to direct me to an old thread if I missed it.

TCUTTER
13-10-2006, 23:58
by my understanding on chapters, there isnt really only a thousand marines theres others, techmarines are there own department, retired marines train scouts, and the master of thing basical represents;
Commander of the Arsenal; command of the fleet the chapter has, uriel ventris held this title following his promotion.
Master's Secretarius; i dunno possibly like the dark angels watchers
Chapter's Armourer; head techmarine
Victuallers; never heard of these ever
Commander of the Watch;im gonna say that this is like the home world chapter that defends the planet, but thats a well educated guess.
Lord of the Household; the command of the fortress monastery
theres other ranks mentioned in the 4th ed marine codex

Endemion
14-10-2006, 11:57
I belive most of these are honourary titles bestowed upon captains?

Strikerkc
14-10-2006, 14:24
Yea, if I'm not mistaken, those sound like the more honorary titles given to the company masters. Each company master gets put in charge of "something" even if it's done by some one else (like how the Master of the Fleet will often defer command to some one subordinate to them that actualy has more experience as a naval comander).

schoon
14-10-2006, 14:39
Endemion has it essentially correct.

Those are all titles, as opposed to ranks. Thus, a Space Marine Captain might also hold the title of Lord of the Household.

It is implied that older Marine officers step down from command sometimes to assume other duties (Master of Scouts, etc.)

CELS
14-10-2006, 15:15
Oh, I beg to differ, gentlemen. Please, take a look at Codex: Ultramarines if you have it.

Apparently, each company has its own Captain, Standard Bearer, Chaplain and Apothecary. Aside from this, you have the 'Headquarters staff'. In the HQ staff, you have senior officers. Senior officers include Librarians and Techmarines, but also the above-mentioned senior officers and the Chapter Ancient. This is very clear if you look at the wording in Codex Ultramarines.

And no, schoon, they are not titles as opposed to ranks. Allow me to quote Codex: Ultramarines. "Some ranks desribed by the Codex include (...) the Master's Secretarius, the Lord of the Household..."

Anyway. Regardless of whether or not you go with the new fluff, where these responsibilities seem to be (at least partially) handed out to captains, I'd still like to know what these things mean. Each title/rank does come with some responsibility, certainly.

Master of the Fleet is easy to figure out. Lord of the Household could be the person responsible for overseeing the fortress-monastery or equivalent. Commander of the Watch probably isn't the protector of the Chapter's homeworld, because Imperial warships have an 'Officer of the Watch', I think. Commander of the Arsenal obviously isn't the commander of the fleet, since that's a separate title. Commander of the Armoury is not the head techmarine, because techmarines are considered a seperate unit in the HQ staff, according to Codex: Ultramarines.

Kage2020
14-10-2006, 16:01
The idea that such ranks are bestowed upon the various Company Captains seems more a product of books such as Dawn of War, etc. It's a shame, really.

Kage

Voronwe[MQ]
14-10-2006, 16:38
Indeed it is, and just because it appears to be so in slighty... 'simplified'... novels and short stories that cannot see the way things tend to work in reality but merely views 'mighty hereos' and 'cruel villians without a reason for cruellty' in the worst Illiad/Hollywood-esque ways imaginary possible, it is not so things work in realistic settings. Perhaps we shall view Blood Ravens as having such a command structure (though not so simple, although I doubt Goto will explore the possdible corners and swings...), but rarely any other chapters.

Khaine's Messenger
14-10-2006, 16:45
Commander of the Watch probably isn't the protector of the Chapter's homeworld, because Imperial warships have an 'Officer of the Watch', I think.

Well, that will depend on what you mean by "the watch." A naval "watch" is a time interval or shift rotation, and a commander thereof could be referred to as "commander of the watch" (although I'm not a navy man, so anyone who is, call me out if you think it's necessary). On the other hand, "the watch" is also synonymous with the police. As such, the Commander of the Watch may be the rough equivalent to the chapter's internal arbitrator, or he could be in command of a "rotation" or some other logistical matter. I doubt he's the official timekeeper, although that would also be rather amusing.

As to Arsenal/Armoury--it's quite likely that the rank of "Commander" here is misleading. It seems to me that neither of them would really "command" anything other than a staff of administrative flunkies and work-gangs, constantly keeping track of munitions, equipment, and ordnance. Aside from their normal duties, I mean.

Victuallers should be obvious: every army marches on its stomachs...even Space Marines. And I'd imagine the Secretarius is basically the same as the pre-Heresy "equerry"...someone who speaks on behalf of the Chapter Master when the Chapter Master can't be there. Or in Kharn's case, good cop to Angron's "disembowel you where you stand" cop.

Gondorian
14-10-2006, 17:08
It's not just the dawn of war books. There is also mention in the book fire warrior that Captain Ardias is commander of the arsenal. Also there are more references in the inferno 44 story of Uriel Ventris but having only read this once I cannot remember them.

The way I see this is simple. If a marine officer, be he company captain, force commander or 'retired', gets one of these titles/ranks then he is responible for making sure that these areas function as they are meant to. This probably mostly involves logistics and they would almost certainly have subordinates that are heavily involved in it. The role of the title bearer is that of an over seer. Also, a fighting company leader would obviously have less time to devote to these duties than a 'retired marine', therefore a 'retired' marine might have a more intensive role in this field.
However, that's just the way I see things.

Sephiroth
14-10-2006, 17:35
In the Ultramarines series by Graham McNeill, Uriel Ventris, Captain of the Fourth Company, was 'Commander of the Fleet', but he chose to hand the duties and rank to the more experianced Lord Admiral Tiberius, captain of the Strike Cruiser Vae Victus. This was allowed, because the Codex demands the Marine with the most experiance suited for the role have it.

The previous edition of the Space Marine codex had the various titles belonging to the Space Marine Captains:

2nd Captain: 'Commander of the Watch'.
3rd Captain: 'Commander of the Arsenal'.
4th Captain: 'Commander of the Fleet'.
5th Captain: 'Master of the Marches'.

The Master's Secretarius and Lord of the Household are both members of the Chapter's Headquarters, in addition to a few other ranks:

Equerry Primus.
Master of the Sanctum.
Regulator Primus.

Voronwe[MQ]
14-10-2006, 20:15
Veteran Sergeants and other ranks might acquire Master of the Arsenal rank etc.

CELS
14-10-2006, 23:30
Well, that will depend on what you mean by "the watch." A naval "watch" is a time interval or shift rotation, and a commander thereof could be referred to as "commander of the watch" (although I'm not a navy man, so anyone who is, call me out if you think it's necessary).
No, this is true. I just saw 'Master and Commander' again :D


On the other hand, "the watch" is also synonymous with the police. As such, the Commander of the Watch may be the rough equivalent to the chapter's internal arbitrator, or he could be in command of a "rotation" or some other logistical matter. I doubt he's the official timekeeper, although that would also be rather amusing.
LMAO! Yes, he is the only one in the Chapter with a watch, as the technology to make them was lost in the Dark Age of Technology :p

I like the idea of him as an internal arbitrator though. Nice, nice...


As to Arsenal/Armoury--it's quite likely that the rank of "Commander" here is misleading. It seems to me that neither of them would really "command" anything other than a staff of administrative flunkies and work-gangs, constantly keeping track of munitions, equipment, and ordnance. Aside from their normal duties, I mean.
Right. And I suppose Arsenal would be infantry weaponry, whilst Armoury is vehicles?


Victuallers should be obvious: every army marches on its stomachs...even Space Marines.
Obvious if you understand the meaning of the name. I'm Norwegian. So what are you saying? They're responsible for logistics?


And I'd imagine the Secretarius is basically the same as the pre-Heresy "equerry"...someone who speaks on behalf of the Chapter Master when the Chapter Master can't be there. Or in Kharn's case, good cop to Angron's "disembowel you where you stand" cop.
Haha. Fair enough :)


The Master's Secretarius and Lord of the Household are both members of the Chapter's Headquarters, in addition to a few other ranks:
Equerry Primus.
Master of the Sanctum.
Regulator Primus.
Where did you hear about these last three ranks?


;1009555']Veteran Sergeants and other ranks might acquire Master of the Arsenal rank etc.
Are you sure that Veteran Sergeants would be called officers? I mean, the ranks described in the Codex were given to 'senior officers'.

Kandarin
15-10-2006, 00:11
'Victuals' is a word used for food and other supplies. This likely means a Victualler is equivalent to a chief quartermaster.

asmodai_dark86
15-10-2006, 04:16
Equerry Primus - No idea on that one. Wikipedia puts it as the first personal attendent (equerry... with primus being first). It goes on to state that people who attained this rank usually went on to achieve something higher, so perhaps this one is the first rank in the command section where by someone new to the command HQ could learn its workings from experience, and then as a spot opened they could then slip in easily.
Then again, it could simply be that there the chapter masters attendant, whilst the secretarius is the chapters secretary (not the chapter masters - that would make more sense).

Master of the Sanctum. - Interesting one. I'd take a guess at it being the only one a chaplain could attain. But then again that depends on what the sanctum is exactly. Sometimes the place where the geneseed is stored is called the sanctum, as is the chapters archives.
If Tigurius has it mentioned in his fluff then theres the answer. If not, then I'd put a shiny penny on it being the master chaplain.


Regulator Primus - This is the one I'll put money on being an apothocaries rank. The geneseed is regulated, and theres already someone keeping an eye on logistics so...
Then again, looking at wikipedia, it could be that this guy is the logician working in conjunction with the Victuallers. Hang on, thats plural.
So....
The Regulator Primus could easily be a techmarine or some such (likely since the maths required to organise a chapter would be prodigious) whilst the victuallers is a rank amongst several people, and not necessarily space marines, who do the actual grunt work.


I'd also like to raise a point that non of these ranks, if my fluff memory serves me well, has to be a space marine as such. Scout training is sufficient because some of these roles would require training that battlefield experience is wasted on (master of the fleet for example). I remember it being a referance specifically to Master of the household though (I remember reading something on how people who had failed to become scouts/space marines for some reason were kept on to help run the household - after all, if they've been picked they must be exceptional, why discard good material?)

scwolf
15-10-2006, 05:47
With all this back and forth about possible military meanings of "Commander of the Watch", I had a sudden horrid thought. What if it's really something like this (http://fusionanomaly.net/pulpfictionkoonswatchbirthright.jpg)?

Voronwe[MQ]
15-10-2006, 09:35
Are you sure that Veteran Sergeants would be called officers? I mean, the ranks described in the Codex were given to 'senior officers'.

I meant that it was possible if First Company veteran sergeants could acquire lower ranks in the internal command hierarchy responsible for the running of a chapter.

asmodai_dark86
15-10-2006, 14:46
scwolf you are a bad bad boy...

*ponders about making a referance to the commander of the arsenal*