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wingedserpant
14-10-2006, 20:57
I've just had my first game with the new edition of greenskins and I must say they are much more competitive and faster. I only got a draw against the pesky woodies so I thought I'd get some tips from here.

I'll start us with the power of the waaaagh turn. When do you find it to be most effective and sneaky.

MadJackMcJack
14-10-2006, 22:03
The WAAAAGH! is best used when your opponent has moved his units to just outside your charge range. He's there sitting pretty and thinking that his units are safe, and then WHAM! Most of your units get a speed boost and his plans are ruined (as are the faces of his units). So long as you use it when the maximum amount of units are going to benefit, it ain't wasted.

Karhedron
14-10-2006, 22:19
MadJackMcJack is right on the money with this one. There is no point in saying an arbitary turn like the 3rd turn is the best to Waaagh as it will depend in a large part on what your opponent is doing.

Against woodies, plenty of basic infantry is good for starters, then you need something to counter the WE mobility. Spider Riders are very nice in this regard, there is nothing like the look on your opponent's face when your unit suddenly moves 14" through the wood he though was protecting him. :evilgrin:

Skirmishing squig hoppers are also quite nice as the -1 to hit will at least slightly hamper WE archery. The magic squig pipes (sorry, forgot the name) that cause cavalry to take a panic test can be handy too as WEs often rely on several small units og glade riders and the like.

I don't know WEs too well in detail (I have only fought them once) but a Wyvern or Giant may be worth considering. Although they are large targets, they are still T5 against shooting that is mainly T3 (plus the Wyvern gets a 4+ scaly save). The terror that these guys can sow amongst many small units is often very effective.

As for Magic, spells like Gorks warpath that do not require LOS can be very useful as can the movement boosting spells. Magic missiles also work a treat for thinning out dangerous skirmishers like war dancers.

wingedserpant
14-10-2006, 22:42
Okay the waaagh thing is settled; when it benefits the most units. Perhaps we could now discuss unit sizes.

policy-boy
15-10-2006, 11:06
for orc boys i tend to find that 6 wide, and either 4 or 5 ranks deep depending on the level of missile fire works well as it maximises potential in combat, plus it's a large wedge of orcs which other generals find far more intimidating than just 5 wide. Goblin wise I havent used them too much, but i should imagine that 5 ranks of 5 is best, as they can soak up a bit of missile fire and still get the rank bonus, also you dont need to worry about maximising goblins combat potential, as, lets face it, they're craptacular at combat!:D also having 25 mean they fit nicely into the textured movement bases, no need to widen them :)

woytek
15-10-2006, 12:47
I'm currently thinking about doing all my orcs 6 wide and 4/5 long. This makes units of 24 and 30 and will always outnumber, got ranks and lots of attacks. Only dissadvantage I see with 6*4 is that you will loose your rank with 2 casualties, but since ranks are counted before combat that's not a very big problem.

Right now I am doubting between fielding a large black orc unit which will totally destroy all units in the game with support units or just place a bunch of 24 counting orc units with choppa-shield or additional choppa... I'm afraid normal orcs will just fail in combat...

policy-boy
15-10-2006, 14:02
you could try both, have a unit of about 20 black orcs supported by 2 or 3 large orc boy units. however this could cost alot

Snotteef
15-10-2006, 14:07
I definitely see the benefit of going 6 wide now that everyone else will be at least 5 wide. Does anyone forsee problems with such a wide frontage? Orcs do use the larger base size; how will this affect maneuverability and deployment?

woytek
15-10-2006, 14:14
I definitely see the benefit of going 6 wide now that everyone else will be at least 5 wide. Does anyone forsee problems with such a wide frontage? Orcs do use the larger base size; how will this affect maneuverability and deployment?


Get a bigger table... :rolleyes: But you are actually right, there might be some problems manouvering if you choose to field orcs only, but especially with the new rules orcs can field very nice hard hitting units, so why not field them? Only orcs won't break units too often and won't win you games, unless someone gives me some arguments they will! :D

wingedserpant
15-10-2006, 21:34
I find the six wide, five deep to be effective. Black orcs are quite good with only fifteen. Now what should we arm our orcs with now. Your thoughts.

Avian
16-10-2006, 09:00
I cobbled together a little scrips where you can compare Orc Boyz Performance (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/calculations/orc_boyz.php).

Personally I field three units of 30 (5 wide), one with choppa and shield, one with two choppas and one with spear and shield. They are more or less equal and cost more or less the same, so I like the variation. :)

woytek
16-10-2006, 12:52
I find the six wide, five deep to be effective. Black orcs are quite good with only fifteen. Now what should we arm our orcs with now. Your thoughts.

True, 30 orcs would work best, but do cost a bit more. But why would you take fifteen black orcs? They lack attack and they really need their ranks and outnumber like all orcs do, they're pretty cheap at 13 points where other armies might have to play double the cost!

I made this unit:

26 black orcs - command; war banner @ 401 pts.

o Black Orc Warboss - heavy armour; shield; boar; Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh! @ 278

o Black Orc Big Boss - heavy armour; boar; army banner; Nogg's banner of Butchery @ 155 pts.

This makes me a unit with a static CR of: 3 ranks + banner + army banner + war banner + outnumber = 7 and a warboss in it with 8 strenght 8 attacks.... auto break anyone don't you say?

ardude
16-10-2006, 14:03
that's to much overkill, same as putting a chaos lord of khorne and a exalted champion of khorne in a unit of 8 chosen kngihts of khorne.

you can better divide your strength.
(example: lord in a orcs unit with shield and choppa, a black orc unit with the battle standart, a savage orc big'un unit with 2 choppas)

Latro
16-10-2006, 14:15
I made this unit:

26 black orcs - command; war banner @ 401 pts.

o Black Orc Warboss - heavy armour; shield; boar; Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh! @ 278

o Black Orc Big Boss - heavy armour; boar; army banner; Nogg's banner of Butchery @ 155 pts.

This makes me a unit with a static CR of: 3 ranks + banner + army banner + war banner + outnumber = 7 and a warboss in it with 8 strenght 8 attacks.... auto break anyone don't you say?

... it only takes a 30 pts Warhound unit to keep this 800+ pts unit occupied for 2 turns (one charging and one turning back to the action due to diverting). Meanwhile you only have 1100-1200 pts left to deal with my whole army.

Which is basicly the reason why super-elite-killer-units-of-DOOM (no matter which race they are from) rarely work.

woytek
16-10-2006, 14:42
a warhound unit wont come close...

but ofcourse I have to agree, but the idea is nice :D

edit: indeed how about three blocks, black orcs, big 'uns and normal orcs. The black orcs go in the middle with the BSB and the general will join the big 'uns?

Snotteef
16-10-2006, 22:04
I still don't have the new book, but as far as armament, I'm thinking I will run a unit of 30 boyz w/ choppas and shields and 30 with addtional hand weapons. The rest of my army will be gobbos, even if they're not as good as they used to be. ;)

SlaaneshSlave
16-10-2006, 22:55
++++ Battle Standard Bearer ++++

I've come to love the BSB in this edition. It seems that he should be mounted so he can go where the action is. I can't find any good magic standard for a BSB that moves between units.

So should we have a Orc on boar or a Gobbo on a wolf?

Gobbo moves 4" further & costs half the price... hmmmm

Crazy Harborc
16-10-2006, 23:40
I won't have access to the new armybook until Saturday morning. That's the story our local company store is giving out. Heck, they said they didn't have a store copy as of this last Saturday.:confused:

Got plans to run a 6th version roster on AB, then make notes based on what I read after I open the pages Saturday afternoon. Got a game this Sunday, 3000 points against DEs. I am thinking of using (1?) unit of Savage Orcs on foot and another on boars......Hellooooooo FRENZY!!:evilgrin: I can say spider riders, my bat winged loony, loads of NGs.:evilgrin:

tangerinealtoid
17-10-2006, 00:21
for orc boys i tend to find that 6 wide, and either 4 or 5 ranks deep depending on the level of missile fire works well as it maximises potential in combat, plus it's a large wedge of orcs which other generals find far more intimidating than just 5 wide. Goblin wise I havent used them too much, but i should imagine that 5 ranks of 5 is best, as they can soak up a bit of missile fire and still get the rank bonus, also you dont need to worry about maximising goblins combat potential, as, lets face it, they're craptacular at combat!:D also having 25 mean they fit nicely into the textured movement bases, no need to widen them :)

So, here's an issue I haven't seen anyone touch on yet: if you put your Orc hero or general on a boar in the first rank of a unit, and if your unit is only 5 wide, doesn't that screw up the rank behind, since there would only be 4 orcs in the 2nd rank, due to the size of the boar base? And, do you get around this by having a unit size of 6 wide? This would mean that you'd have a 2nd rank that is only 5 wide, but that is still wide enough to count as a rank.

MoonFever
17-10-2006, 03:37
How about Boar Boyz with the new book?

Mounted Orc Shaman?

Which characters join the boarboyz? Shaman/BSB/Warboss?

fubukii
17-10-2006, 04:01
Id say a big boss in a boar boy unit, the warboss is best used to keep your blocks of infantry from running.

woytek
17-10-2006, 09:34
Field a savage orc shaman on boar with Skull Wand of Kaloth and Waaagh! paint! Two attacks with WS 3 meaning you will probably need 4's or 5's and if you hit, the opponent must make a leadership test on his own unmodified leadership. If he fails he is slayed without armour- and wardsave and regeneration.


I've come to love the BSB in this edition. It seems that he should be mounted so he can go where the action is. I can't find any good magic standard for a BSB that moves between units. So should we have a Orc on boar or a Gobbo on a wolf? Gobbo moves 4" further & costs half the price... hmmmm
Well if you have a black orc BSB you can use him to quell animosity and use his fighting skills together with 'armed to da teef'. The banner you will probably want to give him is Nogg's banner of butchery or the Waaagh! banner.

So, here's an issue I haven't seen anyone touch on yet: if you put your Orc hero or general on a boar in the first rank of a unit, and if your unit is only 5 wide, doesn't that screw up the rank behind, since there would only be 4 orcs in the 2nd rank, due to the size of the boar base? And, do you get around this by having a unit size of 6 wide? This would mean that you'd have a 2nd rank that is only 5 wide, but that is still wide enough to count as a rank.
The mounted character is unit strenght 2, so he will count in both ranks. There is no smaller rank because he is there. It means your boss has a higher save and you can take a model less in your unit!

How about Boar Boyz with the new book? Mounted Orc Shaman? Which characters join the boarboyz? Shaman/BSB/Warboss?

I'd put a big boss in the boar boyz, a shaman doesn't belong in such a fast combat based unit. Just put your shaman on a boar and place him in a orc unit. You can also take a night goblin shaman lvl 1 for anti magic and give him dispel scroll and madcap mushrooms. Place him in a unit of night gobbo's with fanatics and you have a nice unit. Make sure to take Mork's Spirit totem.

wingedserpant
17-10-2006, 13:08
True, 30 orcs would work best, but do cost a bit more. But why would you take fifteen black orcs? They lack attack and they really need their ranks and outnumber like all orcs do, they're pretty cheap at 13 points where other armies might have to play double the cost!

I made this unit:

26 black orcs - command; war banner @ 401 pts.

o Black Orc Warboss - heavy armour; shield; boar; Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh! @ 278

o Black Orc Big Boss - heavy armour; boar; army banner; Nogg's banner of Butchery @ 155 pts.

This makes me a unit with a static CR of: 3 ranks + banner + army banner + war banner + outnumber = 7 and a warboss in it with 8 strenght 8 attacks.... auto break anyone don't you say?

Black orcs are support units in my book. 15 worked well for me. I don't go higher than 20 though. Your unit would be overkill and your ranks will go down too fast therefore losing you those battleaxe attacks.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-10-2006, 14:26
But why would you take fifteen black orcs? They lack attack...

Black Orcs lack attack?? :wtf: They can hit with 2 S5 attacks in the first round of the fight, or you can play it safe and hit with only 1 S5 attack. Bottom line, its S5!!!

Avian
17-10-2006, 16:00
For basically the same cost you get twice as many Orc Boyz, who admittedly only have S4 in the first round of combat, but they have +1 rank, probably outnumbering and can aford to take quite a bit of missile fire on the way in. Heck, kill one Black Orc and the unit is down to a +1 rank bonus.

The improved combat abilities of the Black Orcs struggle to make up for the lack of static CR and they take up a Special choice, which can in my opinion be better spent on chariots or war machines.

woytek
17-10-2006, 16:08
So where do you guys get you're power from then? You can fill a 2250 army with 6 orc units all choppa/shield lads, but who will break those dwarf units? A unit of chaos knight will just walk via the right side to the left side killing all between... I don't say ladz are bad, especially not for points, but in 2k you got the points for those hard hitters, and if you just make your black orc unit big enough they can get +6 static CR easy and lose a rank. Considering that unit will provide a very reliable basis for the rest of your army, your orc boyz are way more reliable.

Then fill in the blanks with some fast hitters like sav orc boar boyz and chariots, get two doom divers or a giant if you wish and shoot the expensive units. A unit of night goblins can keep opponents from charging your main blocks with their fanatics and wolf riders can easily screen your main units.

damiengore
17-10-2006, 17:56
I don't kniow about you guys but I am really tempted to field a NG BB on a Giant Cave Squig, it's just too damned funny!!!!

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-10-2006, 17:58
For basically the same cost you get twice as many Orc Boyz, who admittedly only have S4 in the first round of combat, but they have +1 rank, probably outnumbering and can aford to take quite a bit of missile fire on the way in. Heck, kill one Black Orc and the unit is down to a +1 rank bonus.

The improved combat abilities of the Black Orcs struggle to make up for the lack of static CR and they take up a Special choice, which can in my opinion be better spent on chariots or war machines.

I'll take the extra power and resilience of the Black Orcs any day. I don't intend them to win me games like you do. I intend them to support the Boyz in key spots and add extra punch to my attacks (which is there purpose, btw...)

I also don't get how people always assume that units will be fighting by themselves. I could care less about the static CR a Black Orc unit produces, because I can get that CR from Goblins, Orcs, etc. I want a unit that will hit hard and help me with the combat, and Black Orcs do that well for their cost. They are a versatile, resilient, reasonably priced SUPPORT unit...

Black Orcs are a solid unit, and I find it amusing that people say otherwise...

woytek
17-10-2006, 18:23
They can be used how you want, I find it amusing that people say I can't use them the way I like. If you field them as support they won't even make it to the opponent. Using them as main unit will provide a solid base for a boss and your other lads. The static CR will help you break enemy units, what goblins won't do that easily.

The stopping power of a black orc unit can be just the punch you need to break a hole in the opponents line. O&G got plenty of fast cavalry support units together with some heavy.

Black orcs are a nice unit, but without further adjustments won't deal enough damage to break units if they are with 15 only. It isn't always possible to flank charge you know, in fact most players will prevent you from flanking.

Rikkjourd
17-10-2006, 19:14
I don't kniow about you guys but I am really tempted to field a NG BB on a Giant Cave Squig, it's just too damned funny!!!!

I am thinking the same thing. Just don't do it if you want to be competetive.

woytek
17-10-2006, 19:24
Will there even be a model?

Alex
17-10-2006, 22:07
So, here's an issue I haven't seen anyone touch on yet: if you put your Orc hero or general on a boar in the first rank of a unit, and if your unit is only 5 wide, doesn't that screw up the rank behind, since there would only be 4 orcs in the 2nd rank, due to the size of the boar base? And, do you get around this by having a unit size of 6 wide? This would mean that you'd have a 2nd rank that is only 5 wide, but that is still wide enough to count as a rank.

I always thought if you joined an infantry unit with a mounted charaachter you just put the char on the side of the unit, without pushing it inside. It just seems messy to squeese him in there, especially if the inf unit should have narrower bases than the char (like if a mounted empire general would join a unit of empire infantry or so).
Maybe I just got this thing all wrong...?

Buttmunky
18-10-2006, 08:45
I want to do a Night Goblin army, any suggestions?

Avian
18-10-2006, 15:01
So where do you guys get you're power from then?
In my case: Characters, chariots, artillery and trolls :p

All either S5+ or ignoring armour saves or both! :D

woytek
18-10-2006, 17:00
In my case: Characters, chariots, artillery and trolls :p

All either S5+ or ignoring armour saves or both! :D

Well characters is very true, especially with the new nice weapons the orcs got! But chariots and trolls are to unreliable, ofcourse I will admit they can pack a punch, but they don't have CR to break units and trolls are...well stupid :D

Chariots are meant to charge with another unit, but I always find it tricky so I tend to take bigger units with high strenght.

Artillery... I can only say you are so damn right, I am actually thinking about filling my two rare slots with doom divers. Strenght 5 no armour save is just too good to be true against point heavy units. The new re-roll makes them worth it every penny also. I can't think of a battle where you can't get your 80 points out. Just guess somewhere in the middle of his army and see if you can hit something! Remember there is no template so you just have to touch a tip of an enemy unit! :evilgrin:

Avian
18-10-2006, 17:38
Well characters is very true, especially with the new nice weapons the orcs got! But chariots and trolls are to unreliable, ofcourse I will admit they can pack a punch, but they don't have CR to break units and trolls are...well stupid :D

Chariots are meant to charge with another unit, but I always find it tricky so I tend to take bigger units with high strenght.
All of the above are supporting the infantry, rather than working on their own. With 30 Boyz for ranks, outnumbering, a standard and a kill or two, a character who adds another couple of dead enemies and a troll or chariot charging in with them, dealing yet more damage and providing an additional pursuit roll, my guys can handle most things. :)

Everything works together, very little in any of my armies works all by itself.

Snotteef
18-10-2006, 17:48
Everything works together, very little in any of my armies works all by itself.

As it should be!

Still, we seem quite unfocused for a tactica thread; since we've covered Orc armament, what about other units? How do you arm your N.G.'s, Gobbos, Wolf Riders and Boarboyz?

GrogsnotPowwabomba
18-10-2006, 21:20
They can be used how you want, I find it amusing that people say I can't use them the way I like. If you field them as support they won't even make it to the opponent. Using them as main unit will provide a solid base for a boss and your other lads. The static CR will help you break enemy units, what goblins won't do that easily.

I never said you couldn't use them the way you want, I was contending that they work well in a support role, and trying to use them to generate static CR is silly, considering this CR can be generated much more easily with cheaper units. A support unit will easily make it, because it will be a) ignored b) the opponent will be busy trying to clean your ranks of your normal boyz c) you will be harassing with faster/scarier units d) you will be screening with cheaper troops. Fielding them in the uber unit of death that you proposed will just lead to your opponent gangbanging the unit, tieing it up with bait units while he destroys the rest of your army, ignoring it (it is infantry, and can be ignored if delayed properly), etc. You worry about support units getting shot up while they cross the table, the uber-unit is even more likely to receive this treatment, as it is juicy VP, slow, and scary.


The stopping power of a black orc unit can be just the punch you need to break a hole in the opponents line. O&G got plenty of fast cavalry support units together with some heavy.

I don't understand this. Here you basically agree with my comments about Black Orcs, but then you contradict yourself in the next paragraph. Which is it?


Black orcs are a nice unit, but without further adjustments won't deal enough damage to break units if they are with 15 only. It isn't always possible to flank charge you know, in fact most players will prevent you from flanking.

It isn't always possible to flank charge, but it is fairly easy to dual charge, with say a unit of Orcs combined with a unit of Black Orcs, or a Chariot, or whatever. The point is that saying Black Orcs are not good because they are overcosted, without taking into account that they can and should be used in conjunction with other troops makes no sense.

Avian
19-10-2006, 09:54
Still, we seem quite unfocused for a tactica thread; since we've covered Orc armament, what about other units? How do you arm your N.G.'s, Gobbos, Wolf Riders and Boarboyz?
I believe that all 3 pt gobbos are useful, if for no other reason then simply because a 3 pt model is always useful. Some of the 4 pt gobbos can be useful, but I don't think any of the 5 pt ones are.
Of the 4 pt gobbos, I think NGs with spears and CGs with shields are okay. I would not use CGs with spears. Currently I am using one unit of 25 NGs with spears (okay), one unit of CGs with shields (quite good) and two units of 20 NGs with short bows (a bit hopeless, but cheap), all with a musician and nothing else.


Wolf Riders are useful no matter what equipment you give them, as long as it is not short bows and shields at the same time.
If you give them shields, then you most certainly also want to give them spears.
If you want to give them short bows, then keep the unit size to 5 or 6 models.
Small fast cav units should get a musician and no other command option.
Larger non-fast cav units (15 is a decent number) can get all command options and do well with a Gobbo Big Boss to lead them.


At 22 pts I doubt I will field Boar Boyz very often. Nine normal ones plus a big boss or six-ish Big 'Uns / Savage Boar Boyz could work okay, but seem just to expensive and easy to kill for my liking. I would always give them all the trimmings.

wingedserpant
19-10-2006, 11:43
They can be used how you want, I find it amusing that people say I can't use them the way I like. If you field them as support they won't even make it to the opponent. Using them as main unit will provide a solid base for a boss and your other lads. The static CR will help you break enemy units, what goblins won't do that easily.

The stopping power of a black orc unit can be just the punch you need to break a hole in the opponents line. O&G got plenty of fast cavalry support units together with some heavy.

Black orcs are a nice unit, but without further adjustments won't deal enough damage to break units if they are with 15 only. It isn't always possible to flank charge you know, in fact most players will prevent you from flanking.

Black orcs are amazing in little units [they draw fire away from your battle winning orcs or don't get shot at all and can support the weakened units of orcs who have been shot. Just don't put any characters in the blork unit.

wingedserpant
19-10-2006, 11:51
For basically the same cost you get twice as many Orc Boyz, who admittedly only have S4 in the first round of combat, but they have +1 rank, probably outnumbering and can aford to take quite a bit of missile fire on the way in. Heck, kill one Black Orc and the unit is down to a +1 rank bonus.

The improved combat abilities of the Black Orcs struggle to make up for the lack of static CR and they take up a Special choice, which can in my opinion be better spent on chariots or war machines.

Oh, I only take a unit of black orcs after I've got at least two units of orc boyz and some wolf riders or spider riders.

Avian
19-10-2006, 12:24
Yeees, but doesn't that make the Black Orcs feel very inferior when standing next to all those great units? :p

Black Orcs have their uses, but in my opinion the best use for them is mounted of boars and leading big units of Orc Boyz! :D

GrogsnotPowwabomba
19-10-2006, 14:22
Yeees, but doesn't that make the Black Orcs feel very inferior when standing next to all those great units? :p

Not at all. They are elite, so I don't expect them to be in huge numbers like the normal units. Then again, I am primarily a Dark Elf player who likes small units of Special infantry and Corsairs to support larger Spearmen blocks, so maybe the thought of elites in small, support roles is not as upsetting as it is to some.


Black Orcs have their uses, but in my opinion the best use for them is mounted of boars and leading big units of Orc Boyz! :D

I did find it odd that earlier you mentioned that all units should work together, but when criticizing Black Orcs your main arguments seem to revolve arround assumptions that they are acting independently (lack of static CR being your main complaint as far as I could see). Regardless, I'll just agree to disagree with you. I think they are a kick ass unit, as long as you don't make them huge, over-costed units and don't rely on them to win the fight. They are there to bolster the battle line where you need to make a big push. Orc Boyz are what win the fight (and always have, imo). They are also one of the few truly reliable Orc units, and I think something needs to be said for this as well. Actually, they are by far the most reliable Orc unit (other than Chariots, but they fare even worse in terms of your CR criticisms)

Avian
19-10-2006, 15:08
I did find it odd that earlier you mentioned that all units should work together, but when criticizing Black Orcs your main arguments seem to revolve arround assumptions that they are acting independently (lack of static CR being your main complaint as far as I could see).
Ah, yes, I can explain that. My thinking is that infantry works together with cheap non-infantry support units where the infantry will be providing the static CR while the support units generate some extra kills and provide me with an extra pursuit roll or two. I'm not really a fan of infantry supporting infantry, since you can only use the best rank bonus anyway and two quite slow units with quite wide frontages is (I feel) difficult to squeeze in against most units.

Using that line of thinking, any infantry unit that isn't providing full ranks and outnumbering isn't really doing it's job and needs to provide something quite special to justify their place in the army list. And with the loss of Quell Animosity for Black Orc units, they are no longer all that special and just a bit too costly. Yes, their stats are a bit better and yes they have Ld8 and don't roll for Animosity, but at twice the cost of Orc Boyz they just don't appeal very much to me.

Oh, well, the latest incarnation of my army has about half a dozen models out of about 250 with a WS or basic Strength of more than 3, so maybe I am biased. :p

wingedserpant
19-10-2006, 15:17
Okay, I beleive we have covered orc boyz enough. How about some sneaky tactics for wolf riders and spider riders.

woytek
19-10-2006, 16:32
Spider riders can get behind or next to the enemy in turn two if there is enough terrain placed. This way you can very easily block marches and charge in the flank/rear. Better would be to get a unit behind the enemy lines to hunt war machines. Wolf riders imo are a little less good at that even though they might run faster. The opponent probably won't leave his flank open and wolf riders are easily killed.

This doesn't make them useless, because their charge range of 18 inch can provide nice support for your main unit, or attack units that are supposed to hinder your units.

I totally agree with avian by the way, infantry is too slow and wide to support eachother, unless you can get a flank charge of, which probably won't happen that often. Therefore I will always take atleast 6 or 7 boar boyz, preferably savage so they won't panic. They don't even have to be that costly if used wise, 150 points will get you 7 with command i think. Considering they can pack quite a punch with two attack for the orcs and the boars at strenght 4 and 5 it's not that bad of a deal right?

MoonFever
20-10-2006, 02:41
So, so far I've been able to deduce the following. Let me know any mistakes:

1. If you use Boar Boyz, make them Savage Orcs, but Chariots and war machines are better uses of Special slots

2. Both Spider Riders and Wolf Riders are useful. Wolf Riders with Shields should be a unit of 15, Wolf Riders with Bows should be 5-6.

3. Goblins w/ Hand weapon Lt Armour Shield is really good for 4 pts each

4. Night Goblins are decent with Spears & Shield

5. Night Goblins w/ Bows are alright, but at least they are cheap.

6. Trolls are good, especially as units of 1, so they don't panic other peeps, and don't cause panic themselves.

7. Warboss should be in Boyz unit. Big Boss with Boar Boyz is okay.

8. Orc Boyz are the Workhorse units.

9. There's a split decision on Black Orcs. All agree smaller supporting units are okay, but people differ on whether bigger units are worthwhile.

10. Small Goblin units get musician only.
More questions.

A. Night Goblins - Netters? How many Fanatics? How about Bow units?

B. BSB on Boar in Boar unit as Big Boss, or on foot w/boyz?

C. One of each shaman? One Orc/One Gobbo? Do they get a mount?

D. Are Rare slots worth it?

E. Boar Chariots or Wolf Chariots?

F. Why do I have to wait to Saturday to get my book?

Avian
20-10-2006, 08:33
More questions.

A. Night Goblins - Netters? How many Fanatics? How about Bow units?
If you want to make a combat unit of Night goblins, then I would include Netters and a Big Boss. If you just intend to use them as support then I would not bother with either.
Combat units of Night Goblins can get any number of Fanatics, since you don't intend to lose (i.e. ruthlessly sacrifice) the unit the extra cost is not that much of a problem.
Support units can have 0-1 Fanatic. Any more than that and it just gets too expensive.
Bow-armed NGs should only ever be used as support.


B. BSB on Boar in Boar unit as Big Boss, or on foot w/boyz?
Always on a boar, since he cannot otherwise get more than a 5+ armour save (and that is only if he is Black) and it's only 16 pts for him. In a boar unit he is more of a support for that unit only (though they need it), while in a boyz unit he'll support them AND the 12" re-roll ability will be more useful for other units. It depends on what sort of army you want to use, really...


C. One of each shaman? One Orc/One Gobbo? Do they get a mount?
Depends on whether you want a particular spell or not. I think they are otherwise more or less equal, though only gobbos can get the Staff of Sneaky Stealin' and only Orcs should get the Itty Ring. Mounts should really be seen as a way of getting out of trouble quickly and are not essential if you ask me.


D. Are Rare slots worth it?
Sure. Even if you have no great plans for them, a couple of Trolls at 40 pts each are very useful.


E. Boar Chariots or Wolf Chariots?
I tend to take two Boar chariots now whereas I would previously take one Boar chariot and two Wolf Chariots, since that was only 2 Special choices. I now take more Fast cavalry to fill the role of wolf chariots and use boar chariots to support my infantry.


F. Why do I have to wait to Saturday to get my book?
Bad karma? :p

Rikkjourd
20-10-2006, 09:48
Short question: I haven't got my new shiny O&G book yet, are you allowed to put an orc character in a goblin unit? I am going to play gobbos only, but plan to throw in a big scary orc as general to keep my units facing the right direction.

wingedserpant
20-10-2006, 11:07
Dude, you've always been able to do that even though I would advise you don't as it seems wrong; very very wrong.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 11:18
1. If you use Boar Boyz, make them Savage Orcs, but Chariots and war machines are better uses of Special slots

See, I think Chariots aren't necessary from Special, since characters can ride them now without using up the slot. I personally like Black Orcs, Boar Boyz, and Squig Hoppers best from Specials. Then again, I tend not to use war machines, so....


2. Both Spider Riders and Wolf Riders are useful. Wolf Riders with Shields should be a unit of 15, Wolf Riders with Bows should be 5-6.

Due to their cheapness and the fact that they are Core, I think Wolf Rider units used as Fast Cavalry (with or without bows), can very reasonably be used in units of 9-10. This gives them more chance of outnumbering the types of targets they will likely fight (other fast cav, skirmishers, war machines), and also makes them more resilient to shooting and to Panic.


3. Goblins w/ Hand weapon Lt Armour Shield is really good for 4 pts each

This is still debated. Some people think Goblins are useless now. I used to, until I remembered that they won't panic by Orcs...


8. Orc Boyz are the Workhorse units.

Absolutely. Although I have alwasys felt this way, even in 6th Edition...


E. Boar Chariots or Wolf Chariots?

I personally think Wolf Chariots are not worth it now that they are not 2 for 1 Special. I think you are better of using the Special for a Boar Chariot. I think a Wolf Chariot for a Goblin Big Boss, however, is a great idea...

And lastly, the idea of having an Orc general leading an all Goblin army should be grounds for being banned from this site, or at the very least this thread...

ardude
20-10-2006, 11:27
I think spider riders will be most usefull in 10-15 ( they couse fear right? )
as they can outobreak enemys and you won't outnumber with unitstrength 10

Avian
20-10-2006, 11:35
I think spider riders will be most usefull in 10-15 ( they couse fear right? )
Spiders most certainly do not cause Fear :p



Due to their cheapness and the fact that they are Core, I think Wolf Rider units used as Fast Cavalry (with or without bows), can very reasonably be used in units of 9-10. This gives them more chance of outnumbering the types of targets they will likely fight (other fast cav, skirmishers, war machines), and also makes them more resilient to shooting and to Panic.
Ah, but two units of 5 is a lot more useful than one unit of 10. You present twice as many targets for the enemy to shoot at in order to protect his war machines, you can divert twice as many units, you are less vulnerable to unlucky Animosity tests and when you sacrifice a unit you only lose half as many VPs.

And if you need to outnumber something you can just charge with both units at the same time.

wingedserpant
20-10-2006, 11:35
I think spider riders will be most usefull in 10-15 ( they couse fear right? )
as they can outobreak enemys and you won't outnumber with unitstrength 10

No they don't. They're fast caverly therefore do not get rank bonous so 5-6 are the only worthwhile size.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 12:11
Ah, but two units of 5 is a lot more useful than one unit of 10. You present twice as many targets for the enemy to shoot at in order to protect his war machines, you can divert twice as many units, you are less vulnerable to unlucky Animosity tests and when you sacrifice a unit you only lose half as many VPs.

I think both configurations have their uses. And you cannot deny that the larger units are more resilient to Panic.


And if you need to outnumber something you can just charge with both units at the same time.

Unless fighting Elves, Undead, and other Fear causers, where the greater size will make a difference.

wingedserpant
20-10-2006, 12:34
Perhaps one unit of ten and two units of five would give you the most flexiability

Avian
20-10-2006, 12:37
I think both configurations have their uses. And you cannot deny that the larger units are more resilient to Panic.
While a large unit is more resilient than a small one, one large unit is not more resilient than two small units, no.

A single unit of ten wolf riders must test for Panic if it suffers 3 casualties, but if two units of 5 suffer a total of 3 casualties, one unit does not need to take a test.

So there, I can deny it! :p



Perhaps one unit of ten and two units of five would give you the most flexiability
If you want flexibility, you take more units.

SpoinkX12
20-10-2006, 13:10
I definitely see the benefit of going 6 wide now that everyone else will be at least 5 wide. Does anyone forsee problems with such a wide frontage? Orcs do use the larger base size; how will this affect maneuverability and deployment?

Going 6 wide works great against other 25mm bases. But like others said, maneuverability will be a huge issue.

Avian
20-10-2006, 13:48
And you start losing rank bonus after 8 casualties instead of after 11 casualties, as you do with a 5-wide unit.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 13:52
I simply don't agree Avian. I think you and I play this game very differently. I don't see how you denied my point. If a single unit of 10 takes 2 casualties, it will not panic, but a unit of 5 will. You can make arguments either way, which is why I said both configurations are useful.

And lets not forget about the US 5 rule for breaking ranks and how that will last longer in a larger unit.

So yeah, both configs are useful...

As to frontage, I think more than 5 wide just gets cumbersome. Thats a 150mm wide front, which just becomes very hard to do anything other than march straight forward with.

Buttmunky
20-10-2006, 14:11
i need advice on running a good night goblins list. i've already bought a whole heap of night goblins. is there good feed back or not. the orcs and goblin rule book is'nt avaliable in tassie yet and i jumped the gun caus all the people i play warhammer with collect dwaves, and i went halves in the 'battle for skull pass' boxed set, 2 times, caus i thought the night goblins looked cool. i also want them to play cool. sorry i'm new to warhammer and i would like to have a nice first army that wins every now and then.

Metafizikal
20-10-2006, 14:45
Goblins can still be ok, i think. Make sure to keep them cheap, and throw in a few heavy hitters, probably a giant.
make sure to take a common goblin general or skarsnick, and a BSB with the reroll panic test.

I agree with Avian. The bonus with 2 units is that if you fail a panic test you only loose 5 guys, not 10. You only need 3 to break ranks, and they should never attack anything but warmachines alone. Which again, 5 will do you as well as 10, only with 5 you can nail 2 WMs a turn, instead of 1. to make the whole group of WR panic youd need to cause 4 wounds on 2 separate units. With on unit you only need to do 3 wounds and you can loose the whole thing.

Rikkjourd
20-10-2006, 14:58
Also don't forget the nice ability to prevent wounds when splitting up in 2 units. Many things can cause ALOT of wounds on T3 5+ save units at range. If you have 10 in a unit it can become useless from one round of helblaster. If you have 2 he can get 30hits for all I care, there will still be a unit left to charge him with.

Avian
20-10-2006, 15:33
I simply don't agree Avian. I think you and I play this game very differently. I don't see how you denied my point. If a single unit of 10 takes 2 casualties, it will not panic, but a unit of 5 will.
Again, you are basically saying that a unit of 10 is better than a unit of 5, which I agree with. But a unit of 10 is not better than 2 units of 5.

2 dead, spread across two units of 5, will not cause Panic tests. Furthermore, they will stop the units from taking Animosity tests.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 18:35
No 2 units of 5 is not always better than 1 unit of 10. If 1 of the 2 units of 5 takes 2 casualties and panics, you now have less with 1 unit of 5 remaining than you do with the 1 unit of 10 you would have that did not take a panic test.

Not to mention you are totally ignoring my arguments about Fear tests, rank-breaking, etc. For example, a unit of 10 can absorb a total of 8 casualties before losing its ability to bust ranks. 2 units of 5 lose this at only 6 casualties (assuming the casualties are spread evenly). 1 unit of 10 does not have to take a Fear test to charge an Elven archer line, where as the 2 units of 5 would have to. Etc.

The bottom line is that you cannot definatively say one option is completely better than the other. You may have your preference (and to be honest, I generally prefer the smaller units myself). But both have their uses.

woytek
20-10-2006, 19:28
Not to mention you are totally ignoring my arguments about Fear tests, rank-breaking, etc. For example, a unit of 10 can absorb a total of 8 casualties before losing its ability to bust ranks. 2 units of 5 lose this at only 6 casualties (assuming the casualties are spread evenly). 1 unit of 10 does not have to take a Fear test to charge an Elven archer line, where as the 2 units of 5 would have to. Etc.

Not true, two units of five can also loose 8 models before they loose their bonus to ignore ranks. That leaves you with one unit of 2 models, same as the 10 model unit ends up with...

If you get two casualties at your 10 model unit, then yes it will stand, but one more wound and you will loose all models. If you take two wounds on a unit of five, you might loose a unit of 5 models, but you will still have to take two more wounds before the other units runs. This makes it three wounds versus four. Also what someone said that some ranged makes a lot of wounds, like a hellblaster or a unit archers. If I am right archers can no longer choose two units to shoot, so you will be better off with two units ;)

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 21:07
Not true, two units of five can also loose 8 models before they loose their bonus to ignore ranks. That leaves you with one unit of 2 models, same as the 10 model unit ends up with...

Good point. You are right about this.

Buttmunky
21-10-2006, 00:11
Is a big unit of 60 night goblins with a standard that makes them stubborn any good? i wanted to have a big center piece for the army. I'm also thinking of taking a unit of lead belchers over a doom diver, is this wrong? i going make them fit into the theme bymaking a greenstuff hood each and place the left over bad moon standards from 'skull pass' as their gut plates. Also I have army builder and would like to know: is a giant cave squig for the boss a good choice or is it just a waste of points? One other thing: whats the best way to use squigs, hoppers and herds? Looking at army builder they have such low leadership Im not sure they can stand the heat. Even if they suck i'll probably still take them caus they look cool, crazy lookin things.

wingedserpant
21-10-2006, 00:30
Use hoppers to charge fragile units which your units can't even see. I did that with some waywacthers the other day.

Snotteef
21-10-2006, 17:03
Well, I finally got my book. Looks like I'll be either converting or replacing most of my goblins. In my opinion, spears just aren't worth it anymore. I need to model all of my guys with hand weapons.

SlaaneshSlave
21-10-2006, 17:07
OT for a sec...

BSB... Always on a boar, since he cannot otherwise get more than a 5+ armour save (and that is only if he is Black) and it's only 16 pts for him.
This implies you think a Blorc can be BSB. Is this right?

One Orc Big Boss or one Goblin Big Boss in the army may carry the Battle Standard...
I read this as no savage or black orc.

woytek
21-10-2006, 17:16
OT for a sec...

This implies you think a Blorc can be BSB. Is this right?

I read this as no savage or black orc.

That's not true because in the new book the upgrades for the model 'orc big boss' are "orc big boss", "savage orc big boss" and "black orc big boss". With "one orc big boss can be your BSB" they mean either of the three...;)

SlaaneshSlave
21-10-2006, 17:23
I like what your saying, but how are they upgrades? Each of the 3 is given their own stat line & their own cost. No "Black Orc is an additional 15 points."

Also, they say "Any Big Boss can take a shield." No such verbiage for BSB.

Now, please, show me I'm wrong. :)

woytek
21-10-2006, 17:59
I like what your saying, but how are they upgrades? Each of the 3 is given their own stat line & their own cost. No "Black Orc is an additional 15 points."

Also, they say "Any Big Boss can take a shield." No such verbiage for BSB.

Now, please, show me I'm wrong. :)

OK, I'll try again:

There is a part on page 50 about the orc big boss. Right beneath the headline are three options, either you make it a normal big boss, a savage orc big boss or black orc big boss. They are indeed not real upgrades but you have to choose one of them. They are still all a part of the 'orc big boss' choice.

So when they are saying one orc big boss can be BSB, they mean that the choice of 'orc big boss' can be a BSB, but you still have to decide for yourself which of the three you take, they are all orc big bosses. Any big boss can take a shield yes, but in the piece about the BSB it states that the BSB can't take any non-magical equipment except for light or heavy armour.

I hope this makes it clear.

wingedserpant
21-10-2006, 20:56
OT for a sec...

This implies you think a Blorc can be BSB. Is this right?

I read this as no savage or black orc.

See what this new RAW thing has done to people.

Avian
22-10-2006, 13:51
Is a big unit of 60 night goblins with a standard that makes them stubborn any good?
No, it's horribly useless. The BSB carrying the banner that makes them Stubborn is very easy to kill and a unit of 60 NGs is really no more dangerous than a unit of 30, while costing twice as much.


I'm also thinking of taking a unit of lead belchers over a doom diver, is this wrong?
Leadbelchers are mostly useful for taking out fast cavalry and similar units which Ogre armies struggle with. In an Orcs & Goblins army it is not neccessary to spend a Rare choice on fast cavalry hunters.


is a giant cave squig for the boss a good choice or is it just a waste of points?
I believe he should be considered a fun option rather than a competitive option.


One other thing: what’s the best way to use squigs, hoppers and herds?
If they stay close to the General then their own Leadership will not matter at all.





See what this new RAW thing has done to people.
Indeed. The use of the word "Orc Big Boss" is identical to the use of the term in the Magic items section, where "Orcs only" items can be used by any kind of Orc, including Black and Savage Orcs.

Alex
22-10-2006, 16:46
If they stay close to the General then their own Leadership will not matter at all.



Actually, since the hoppers are skirmishers they are not allowed to test on the generals Ld, unless they changed that in 7th ed and I didn't notice...

Metafizikal
22-10-2006, 21:21
they didnt change it because it was never a rule


what do people think of msu black orcs? say 2 units of 10? with the waaagh ability they could be pretty cool.

Alex
22-10-2006, 22:07
Actually, I looked it up... It seems I've been living in the past, not easy to notice all rules changes. :P
Thing is it was a rule in 5th ed, seems I didn't notice they dropped it for 6th.

I quote page 96 of the 5th ed rulebook: "...skirmishers cannot test on the general's Leadership if he is within 12", and cannot re-roll Break tests beacause there is a Battle Banner within 12". In both of these cases the unit is judged to be so dispersed that the chances of all of its men seeing or hearing the commands of a character are nonexistent."

Crazy Harborc
23-10-2006, 02:46
Thanks to my checking a bit just now......I discovered that a character on foot CAN join skirmishers on foot hehehe, I didn't know that. Page 65 bottom right.

Avian
23-10-2006, 08:00
what do people think of msu black orcs? say 2 units of 10? with the waaagh ability they could be pretty cool.
If they were Core I'd be all for it, but I am dubious of spending half of my very limited Special slots on glorified Orc Boyz with double choppas. Not that they aren't decent, but I don't think they are all that good.

woytek
23-10-2006, 09:01
they didnt change it because it was never a rule


what do people think of msu black orcs? say 2 units of 10? with the waaagh ability they could be pretty cool.

what does msu mean? :angel:

I'd say take two units of 15 black orcs, field some high number orc units and take savage orc boar boyz as special together with either a chariot or some artillery. I always like doom divers as rare since they can mince chaos knights in one turn for only 80 points, bargain i say! :D


If they were Core I'd be all for it, but I am dubious of spending half of my very limited Special slots on glorified Orc Boyz with double choppas. Not that they aren't decent, but I don't think they are all that good.

But you can field two black orcs units, take some cavalry and then another unit of orc big'uns and savage orc big'uns. That means you will have four units of ws4,str4,T4 and even strenght 5 on the first turn...

ardude
23-10-2006, 10:15
but than you ahve no warmachines and no chariots, I think that's mostly avians point ;)

woytek
23-10-2006, 10:45
but than you ahve no warmachines and no chariots, I think that's mostly avians point ;)

You still have one special slot for a chariot (unless you want to go 4 chariots it's good enough) and doom divers are your artillery.

Von Wibble
23-10-2006, 11:05
Looking through the book, I think Boar boys look Ok - (I always thought 18pts was far too cheap). But 8pts for an upgrade to Big 'Uns?? This seems very pricey for 1WS and 1S (especially considering empire knights pay +3pts for the S).

OTOH, Orc Big 'Uns seem a better option than Black Orcs. They lose armed to da teef and Ld, and are affected by animosity. But they are core, and can just use the generals ld anyway. Also cheaper - a unit of 24 can feasably be taken.

Or, of course, the msu tactic asked anout with blorcs could just be done here - use 1 unit of blorcs, 1 unit of big 'uns, and 1 unit of Savage Orc Big 'Uns. Then support them with cheaper Orc Boys and goblins and thats your battleline.

Just noticed woytek has posted a similar idea. But this uses 1 more special slot. Also note characters can ride chariots to help out here.

woytek
23-10-2006, 13:19
Looking through the book, I think Boar boys look Ok - (I always thought 18pts was far too cheap). But 8pts for an upgrade to Big 'Uns?? This seems very pricey for 1WS and 1S (especially considering empire knights pay +3pts for the S).

OTOH, Orc Big 'Uns seem a better option than Black Orcs. They lose armed to da teef and Ld, and are affected by animosity. But they are core, and can just use the generals ld anyway. Also cheaper - a unit of 24 can feasably be taken.

Or, of course, the msu tactic asked anout with blorcs could just be done here - use 1 unit of blorcs, 1 unit of big 'uns, and 1 unit of Savage Orc Big 'Uns. Then support them with cheaper Orc Boys and goblins and thats your battleline.

Just noticed woytek has posted a similar idea. But this uses 1 more special slot. Also note characters can ride chariots to help out here.

You are very right there, except I don't quite know if it's okay to say that big'uns are better then black orcs. The black orcs cost 13 points each, having a +5 save with option to fight with two choppa's or a great weapon. They have one more Ld. point but that's pretty much neglectible. Their main advantage is that they move on the waaagh! turn and don't suffer from animosity.

Orc big'uns are 11 pts. and savage orc big'uns are 14 pts. The orcs are slightly cheaper then black orcs, but have a 6+ save and suffer from animosity. The animosity can be taken care of by putting either the warboss or BSB in the unit, making them reliable and giving them an additional +1 on the waaagh! turn. Savage orcs are real killing machines but are as expensive as black orcs with shield (which can get a +3 save). They get 3 attacks with additonal choppa and have a 6+ ward save.

The ideal combination to me would be one unit of black orcs together with maybe a unit big'uns and a regular unit. Or you could indeed replace the regular orcs by savage orc big'uns. Take a warboss and BSB, both black orc on boar and field them in the orc units. Place the black orcs in the middle with left and right orc boyz and put the warboss in the big'uns. The enemy will deffinately have a hard time with this main stay and two of the three units will move automatically on the waaagh!

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-10-2006, 14:09
Well, I finally got my book. Looks like I'll be either converting or replacing most of my goblins. In my opinion, spears just aren't worth it anymore. I need to model all of my guys with hand weapons.

How do you plan to do this? I need to do it as well. I'm ok with the spears on the NG, but for regular Gobbos they simply have to go...

Avian
23-10-2006, 14:24
I have found that Empire Free Company models come with a lot of hand weapons which are about right size for gobbos. Ask around and you will probably find an Empire player that has used the FC set to create a missile unit and has some hand weapons to spare.

stormfalcon
23-10-2006, 16:55
Hello, new to the green here. I've got about 1000 pts. or so of orcs that I picked up a while back that I want to start molding into an army now that the new book is out. Most are assembled, some are not.

Black orc big boss
25 orc boyz w/choppa and shield, full command
24 orc big uns w/choppa, shield, spears, full command
25 orc boyz (unassembled)
2 orc charriots
5 orc boar boyz

Right now I want to run a pure orc army (no fanatics, wolf riders, etc.). I realize this is probably idiotic, but I'm going for a theme (hopefully not the "loses every battle he fights" theme).

Right now I'm thinking of giving shields to the second set of orc boyz. This will give me a big 'uns unit w/boss flanked by two units of shield-bearing orc boyz. Seems like a very solid, hard hitting line. The boar boyz and charriots could be a power flank unit, or I could put a charriot in between the orc blocks so they could participate in charges (not sure what I'd do with the boar boyz...maybe have them hang back behind the lines as a counterassault unit).

Since I'm not using wolf riders I should probably get a couple of groups of 10 arrer boyz to help cover my flanks, and I'm goint to stick a unit of black orcs along side the big 'uns at some point (probably whenever the plastics come out).

Any thoughts and/or suggestions would be really appreciated.

Snotteef
23-10-2006, 17:57
How do you plan to do this? I need to do it as well. I'm ok with the spears on the NG, but for regular Gobbos they simply have to go...


I play dwarfs and the 6th edition Dwarfs come with tons of Gobbo sized hand weapons. I also have some old sprues of the 5th edition Chaos Warriors, which will garner me some extra hand weapons. Additionally, any Orcs that aren't assembled with 2 hand weapons should leave you with a variety of choppas and knives to use.

woytek
23-10-2006, 18:14
Hello, new to the green here. I've got about 1000 pts. or so of orcs that I picked up a while back that I want to start molding into an army now that the new book is out. Most are assembled, some are not. Any thoughts and/or suggestions would be really appreciated.

Well read my last few posts :D I don't think such a list will fail since orcs have become very nice with the new book. The only thing you are going to miss is probably artillery and wolf riders/spider riders. Is there no way you can still combine them? For example you could make the goblins real slaves of the bullies.

Arrer boyz won't do that much I am afraid, but maybe they can hold back a very small fast cav unit...

stormfalcon
23-10-2006, 18:41
Good to hear that its a sound list. The arrer boyz are there to do exactly what you describe, keep fast cav flankers off my lines. In the end I will probably add some gobbos to the list to fill critical positions the orcs can't (fast cavalry, artillery, maybe some fanatics), but will try and hold off (at lease on the wolf riders and fanatics).

The reason for my attitude is that fanatics are IMHO just too good at what they do. I know they can be extremely random, but the times I've used them in the past they have won or nearly won the game for me while my orc and goblin blocks (esp. goblin blocks) did nothing. I want my army to be based on solid infantry blocks and good tactics, not one trick ponies. As for the wolf riders, I just have no idea how to use them effectively. When I've tried them in they just get crushed and do me no good. Arrer boyz, for what I need them for, seem like a better buy.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-10-2006, 18:48
I have found that Empire Free Company models come with a lot of hand weapons which are about right size for gobbos. Ask around and you will probably find an Empire player that has used the FC set to create a missile unit and has some hand weapons to spare.

Good to hear. I actually have a bunch of left over free company weapons from the 2 boxes I used to spruce up my Zombies for my VC army. Good to know!!


I play dwarfs and the 6th edition Dwarfs come with tons of Gobbo sized hand weapons. I also have some old sprues of the 5th edition Chaos Warriors, which will garner me some extra hand weapons. Additionally, any Orcs that aren't assembled with 2 hand weapons should leave you with a variety of choppas and knives to use.

Aren't those weapons too big for Goblins? Especially the Orc ones?


I don't mean to get OT here, but how do you ensure that the weapon's don't always fall off the models? I find that superglue alone doesn't always prevent them from snapping off in transit, etc. and I would just like to make the models less fragile. Thoughts?

Snotteef
23-10-2006, 21:01
Aren't those weapons too big for Goblins? Especially the Orc ones?


The smaller, left-handed swords are all right and the knives are perfect. Orcs and goblins look good with oversized weapons anyway. Also, don't neglect all the command swords and knife hands on the old goblin/N.G. sprue.

The dwarf ones are JUST right. Dwarf models are about the same size as the old goblins.


don't mean to get OT here, but how do you ensure that the weapon's don't always fall off the models? I find that superglue alone doesn't always prevent them from snapping off in transit, etc. and I would just like to make the models less fragile. Thoughts?

The old plastic Gobbos have huge hands. I use a largish drill bit and drill down about a millimeter or two into the top of their hands. I then insert the handle of the weapon into that hole and glue it (obviously the hole needs to be just a wee bit larger than the weapon handle). It's fairly sturdy.

EDIT: P.S. I forgot to mention that unused Orc speartips make very good knife/shortswords for goblins/nightgoblins.

Crazy Harborc
24-10-2006, 01:49
I still use 10 plus units of arrer boyz out front as meat shields. Yesterday they were against those weakling DE's with their puny S3 repeater archers. hey his repeater bolt throwers did NOT do much either:evilgrin:

Avian
24-10-2006, 08:35
Aren't those weapons too big for Goblins? Especially the Orc ones?
I think the old dwarf set fits the old bigger goblins quite well (as do the zombie set), but I would not use them for the newer gobbos. Note that especially with the old starter set orcs, it is possible to trim down some of the weapons a bit to make them fit better with the new gobbos.



I don't mean to get OT here, but how do you ensure that the weapon's don't always fall off the models?
Replace the entire hand or arm holding the weapon. That gives you a larger contact surface to glue and you are less likely to have breakages.





Right now I want to run a pure orc army (no fanatics, wolf riders, etc.). I realize this is probably idiotic, but I'm going for a theme (hopefully not the "loses every battle he fights" theme).
Well, without fast cavalry and artillery you can probably expect to lose quite a few battles. :p


Right now I'm thinking of giving shields to the second set of orc boyz.
Boyz with choppas and shields are a great unit and much better than Boyz with just a single choppa.


The boar boyz and charriots could be a power flank unit, or I could put a charriot in between the orc blocks so they could participate in charges (not sure what I'd do with the boar boyz...maybe have them hang back behind the lines as a counterassault unit).
Boar Boyz are not really very powerful and should, in my opinion, be used closely together with the infantry. Thus I would deploy them thusly:
Boar chariot - Big 'Uns - Boar Boyz - Boyz (with General) - Boar chariot - Boyz


Since I'm not using wolf riders I should probably get a couple of groups of 10 arrer boyz to help cover my flanks, and I'm goint to stick a unit of black orcs along side the big 'uns at some point (probably whenever the plastics come out).
I would personally not trust Arrer Boyz to be able to cover my flanks and would instead take a couple of units of ten boyz with double choppas and a musician. Better in combat and will probably kill as many enemies with shooting as the Arrer Boyz will! :D

stormfalcon
24-10-2006, 14:12
"Well, without fast cavalry and artillery you can probably expect to lose quite a few battles."

Ouch. Well, honest opinion was what I was looking for. Theme is great but if you find yourself getting beaten constantly because theme makes your list weak it's time to change. I'll add two units of wolf riders instead of two units of arrer boyz.

"Boyz with choppas and shields are a great unit and much better than Boyz with just a single choppa."

But are they better than boyz with two choppas? The extra attacks (esp. with +1 S) are great, but IMHO the better defense makes the shields a better option. What about a unit or two of boyz with two choppas behind the lines as counterassault units?

How about something like:

Chariot - Big 'uns - Boars - Boyz (general) - Chariot - Boyz

Boyz (2 choppa) Boyz (2 choppa)

Wolf riders Wolf riders

"Boar Boyz are not really very powerful and should, in my opinion, be used closely together with the infantry. Thus I would deploy them thusly:
Boar chariot - Big 'Uns - Boar Boyz - Boyz (with General) - Boar chariot - Boyz"

Interesting. I was wondering about using a similar deployment with at least the chariots spaced between the infantry blocks. This, I would imagine, gives the blocks something to help them in a charge while at the same time protecting the flanks. Is it best to keep the chariots/boar boyz slightly behind the infantry blocks?

Lastly, if I decide to use night goblins, I was planning to deploy them between but slightly ahead (maybe 2-3 inches) of the orc blocks. My thought is that they would pop the fanatics, let them wreak havoc (ideally on the enemy) and follow this up with a Waaagggh! charge from the orc blocks to capitalize on the mayhem. Something like this:

Chariots - Big 'uns - NG's - Boyz (general) - NG's - Boyz - Boars

Wolf riders Wolf riders

Thanks for the suggestions. Lots of good stuff to think about

GrogsnotPowwabomba
24-10-2006, 15:53
I have not tried it yet, but I plan to use large blocks of Orc Boyz with Shield + Choppa supported by smaller units of Boyz with 2H to add punch, hit flanks, etc. I have alot of success with a similar tactic with my Dark Elves (large Warrior blocks with Corsairs in small units supporting the charge). Animosity is the key issue that makes it more risky for the Orcs, but on the flip side the Orcs hit harder when they charge and are significantly cheaper than the Dark Elf troops...

stormfalcon
24-10-2006, 16:19
What size blocks are you thinking of (25 plus full command for the choppa and shield orcs, 15-20 plus musician for the 2 chopa orcs)? Are the 2x choppa boyz going to be between the choppa/shield blocks? This would push chariots/boar boyz to the flanks, possibly working with fast cavalry.

Apologies for the storm of questions, but these suggestions have been good food for the brain.

woytek
24-10-2006, 18:31
I really think those smaller units are going to trash your mobility,not allowing you to flank that much..

GrogsnotPowwabomba
24-10-2006, 19:01
I plan to use large blocks of Orcs with shields (25-30 in 5-wide formation), with small 10 boy units armed with 2xchoppa working on the immediate flanks. Chariots can go next to the 2xchoppa boyz or right next to the big blocks. Both formations can work, although I think with the Chariots' larger charge range, they will get more use further out, as they can combine charge with the 10-boy units more easily than in the chariot-closer formation.

Part of how this works is that the small units stay back in a staggered formation from the large blocks of Boyz, so act as a reserve to fill gaps, etc. It is also not completely necessary to have these smaller units in 5-wide formation, as they are being given their rank bonus from the larger blocks or are taking on units that are small enough for them not to need the ranks. Lastly, they are cheap enough (75-90pts, whether you choose to have a Boss or not) that I could really care less if they end up dying, since they are cheap reserves and cost little.

This tactic does not screw up the mobility of my Dark Elves at all, and actually creates more opportunities for flank charges. That is part of the point of the tactic. I do the EXACT same thing with Warriors, small Corsair blocks, and Cold One Chariots and it works very well. Granted, the Orcs are on slightly larger bases, but the basic principle is no different and the difference in base size is not so large that it makes this tactic unusable. If anything, it is more useable due to the increased resilience of Orcs, the greater hitting power they have on the charge, and the fact that their troops are cheaper on a 1 to 1 basis.

Crazy Harborc
25-10-2006, 01:06
When my boys charged Sunday my opponent had forgotten I told him at the start shields, with extra handweapons/choppas. Those puny DEs lost 7 in round one:D Go bye, bye pointy ears come back next time we need meat.:evilgrin:

Avian
25-10-2006, 08:32
But are they better than boyz with two choppas? The extra attacks (esp. with +1 S) are great, but IMHO the better defense makes the shields a better option. What about a unit or two of boyz with two choppas behind the lines as counterassault units?
I'm currently fielding one unit of 30 Orcs with ch/sh, one with 2x ch and one with sp/sh and I find all of them to be useful. Double choppas are very nice when charging, so this is the unit my (Black Orc) General tends to go with, as they charge more than the other Boyz units. I don't think any of the options is noticeably more cost effective on average than the others.

Crazy Harborc
26-10-2006, 00:58
Every battle can be and often is a different result for different reasons. I just may do the same with my units of Orc Boyz (my opponent wants a rematch):evilgrin: .

Soon, he will be pushing HIS 7th Edition Orcs. Sigh.....I guess I'll be "forced" to push Dwarves, the Empire or DoW. Dirty job.....somebody has to do it.;)

Results may vary......according to what you are up against. IMHO, have as many choices as you can. If all you have, if all you can afford OR all you want is one army......might as well have lots of units and minies to mix and match battle to battle. Variety is the spice of life AND having to quess what you'll use next time (or this one) can drive opponents wacky:evilgrin:

stormfalcon
26-10-2006, 11:56
Crazy Harborc: So you gave your basic orc blocks a second choppa AND shield? Talk about versatility! I must give that option much thought.

woytek
26-10-2006, 12:28
I'm currently fielding one unit of 30 Orcs with ch/sh, one with 2x ch and one with sp/sh and I find all of them to be useful. Double choppas are very nice when charging, so this is the unit my (Black Orc) General tends to go with, as they charge more than the other Boyz units. I don't think any of the options is noticeably more cost effective on average than the others.

I am now using (with good result, won 2250 against ogre kingdoms) a unit of 20 black orcs in the middle without characters. Next to them are two units of 24 orcs (doubting wheter to make them 30). One of them is big'un and contains the general black orc. The other unit is made of normal orcs and contains the battle standard bearer black orc.

The black orcs have the war banner and the big'uns take the nogg's banner of butchery or Gork's waaagh! banner... I'm still doubting on that too. The battle standard doesn't take a banner and I am still looking for a nice equip for him.

Both black orcs are on boar and my general will probaly carry the battleaxe of the last waaagh! It did really well with 8 attacks at WS7 and STR8. He got one attack from banner of butchery.

Because of this set-up, the three main blocks are very likely to hold and two of them will automatically move on the waaagh. One will go on a 2+. Because with the new rules you can now get the charge when using some tactics I prefer 2 choppa's and doubting about shoppa/shield. Spears are in my case useless IMO.

The middle is support by a fanatic unit of night goblins, 10 wolf riders total and 10 spider riders total. I have 5 savage orc boar boyz who do extremely well for their cost! I know they are expensive, but a unit of five can be fielded for under 150 points with str 4 and 5 attacks.

As rare I will, from now on, ALWAYS field two doom divers. The things are incredible. Against ogres they did good but still below of what they could have done. This is because ogres have small units and therefore I had some troubles with aiming the goblin. I did get their points out and I won't leave home without them!

stormfalcon
26-10-2006, 16:20
OK...am I missing something?

The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that giving orcs spears (currently carried by my big 'uns) is a bad idea. In the old army book, since choppa + shield + light armor got you the same save as spear + shield + light armor it was a good idea (choppas for the charge, spears for receiving the charge). Now with a 4+ armor save for choppa, shield and light armor along with the choppa bonus in the first round of combat (not just on the charge), I don't see the benefit of the spears. I'd rather give my big 'uns a shield (better armor save when receiving a charge) and second choppa (when making the charge).

The only place where the spears seem to be useful in on boar boyz and wolf riders (included in the cost) and maybe night goblins (although giving them shields and not spears seems to be a better idea...same cost IIRC plus better save).

So, why keep the spears?

Snotteef
26-10-2006, 19:11
So, why keep the spears?

I can only think of two reasons:

1) They look wicked cool.:p

2) On Big 'Uns with Nogg's Banner, they get a BUTT-load of S4 attacks.;)

woytek
26-10-2006, 19:23
I can only think of two reasons:

1) They look wicked cool.:p

2) On Big 'Uns with Nogg's Banner, they get a BUTT-load of S4 attacks.;)

Big'uns with add choppa's have only 6 attacks less on the 36 attacks and makes them have strenght 5.... :rolleyes: easy choice no?

Dogskills
26-10-2006, 19:42
Big'uns with add choppa's have only 6 attacks less on the 36 attacks and makes them have strenght 5.... :rolleyes: easy choice no?

Got to be 12 attacks less with Noggs..

Snotteef
26-10-2006, 22:48
Got to be 12 attacks less with Noggs..

No, he's right it is 6 less, but if you take casualties it hurts the 2 choppa Orcs much more. On the charge the two choppa big 'uns are clearly better, but when charged, I'd rather have the spears.

At any rate, I doubt I'll be fielding any spear armed Orcs, despite my love for the models. In most situations I prefer Choppa/shield Orcs. Cheap and effective.

Dogskills
26-10-2006, 23:57
I stand corrected math have never been my strongest point, roll eyes..

Crazy Harborc
28-10-2006, 20:37
I just may be changing my army roster for tomorrow's battle. IMHO, with average dice rolls as far animosity rolls, doing it with NO Black Orc lords/heros will likely save some greenies being wacked on the head by "quelling attempting" BO leaders in the units. Cost less point too. I do like the better armour save of the BO lords/heros......um, decision, decisions.:confused:

SirMack1969
29-10-2006, 14:43
Any Suggestions on how to form a 1000-1500 point army and which model(s) should I buy next to work towards a 2000 point army? I currently have the following...

- 35 Orcs (16x Orc Boyz, 16x Arrer Boyz, 1x Boss, 1x Musician, 1x Standard Bearer)
- 40 Night Goblins ( 22 w/ spears, 12 w/ bows, 2x Boss, 2x Musician, 2x Standard Bearer)
- 10 Goblin Wolf Riders w/ Spears (Boss, Musician, Standard)
- 3 Night Goblins Fanatic, 1 Orc Boar Chariot, 1 Orc Warboss on Boar, 1 Black Orc Standard Bearer, 1 Black Orc Musician, 1 Orc Shaman, 1 Rock Lobber, and 1 Giant.

I am a noob at this and will be fighting my first battle soon.

Thx.:confused:

woytek
29-10-2006, 17:13
No, he's right it is 6 less, but if you take casualties it hurts the 2 choppa Orcs much more. On the charge the two choppa big 'uns are clearly better, but when charged, I'd rather have the spears. At any rate, I doubt I'll be fielding any spear armed Orcs, despite my love for the models. In most situations I prefer Choppa/shield Orcs. Cheap and effective.
This is very true, if orcs with additional choppa's take casualties it hurts. But since the orcs are very likely to get a few charges of (THANK YOU GW FOR THE ORCY WAAAGH WE NOW HAVE! :D ) I'd rather go with the choppa's.


I stand corrected math have never been my strongest point, roll eyes..
no problem.

I just may be changing my army roster for tomorrow's battle. IMHO, with average dice rolls as far animosity rolls, doing it with NO Black Orc lords/heros will likely save some greenies being wacked on the head by "quelling attempting" BO leaders in the units. Cost less point too. I do like the better armour save of the BO lords/heros......um, decision, decisions.:confused:

Well orcs are cheap, and black orcs can quell that one big let down of the orcs: animosity. If it means that I have to take a few casualties to move forward, I will accept that fact. Now be sure to use that waaagh, it's a game winner!

@SirMack1969:

Just try to get a base first, get two big orc blocks (you're almost there) of 24 or more orcs. Fill those up with fast cav (you already got that) and goblins if you want. Then ask yourself what you want; cavalry, artilery, heavy infantry etc. So go for boar boyz or black orcs. There are going to be plastic black orcs in the summer I think, so you might want to wait for that.

Karhedron
29-10-2006, 19:48
So, why keep the spears?
Firstly, spears are only half the price they were in the old book.

Secondly, my spear boyz are the best painted unit in my army (at least until I finish my Black Orcs) and I am not going to leave them behind on point of principle. :p

Crazy Harborc
30-10-2006, 02:42
Today, 6 times, my gobbos had to take leadership tests....They all were passed using only the unit's leaderships.:eek: My regular Orc boyz did just fine. One of the boyz units had a Black Orc Hero. They did good. The boys on their own did VERY good.

I like the new animosity, I did/do better when BO characters are NOT around to "quell" their units of boyz. I do like the armed to the teeth option that BO heros have now. I don't give Orc Boyz spears, the new choppas/hand weapons are great(so far).

woytek
30-10-2006, 09:11
I like the new animosity, I did/do better when BO characters are NOT around to "quell" their units of boyz. I do like the armed to the teeth option that BO heros have now. I don't give Orc Boyz spears, the new choppas/hand weapons are great(so far).

I believe you, and since you experienced them in battle I can't question that BUT: what if your boyz roll a 1 two or three times... no way they will do good or very good. Hell they've been wasted points! A black orc can make sure the unit moved and fights. What is the disadvantage of having one in? It makes your unit hell of a unit. Remember also black orc BSB can quell!

Snotteef
30-10-2006, 12:08
A black orc can make sure the unit moved and fights. What is the disadvantage of having one in? It makes your unit hell of a unit. Remember also black orc BSB can quell!

Well, I'd say the disadvantage would be the d6 S5 hits that goes along with quelling! ;)

That being said, I will be using a BO BSB. A BSB w/ heavy armor who is 'Armed to da Teef?' That's just too good to leave at home.

woytek
30-10-2006, 12:28
Well, I'd say the disadvantage would be the d6 S5 hits that goes along with quelling! ;)

That being said, I will be using a BO BSB. A BSB w/ heavy armor who is 'Armed to da Teef?' That's just too good to leave at home.

Orcs are cheap ;) But I'd rather fight and take some casualties instead of my unit becoming useless :p

And yes BO BSB are probably by far the best choice, although I prefer them on a boar and thus the armed to da teef rule is less interesting.

Rikkjourd
30-10-2006, 13:30
Quelling is far better than having a unit standing around doing nothing! It can destroy your whole plan and disrupt everything... I would almost dare to say that quelling is better in about 9/10 cases. Quelling causes 3.5(2/3)=2.33 wounds on average, which should be acceptable if you have good unit sizes.

pinball wizard
30-10-2006, 20:58
yeah but you can only quell so many, sooner or later the plans gunna fail, statistcally it MUST happen some time

Crazy Harborc
31-10-2006, 01:26
I believe you, and since you experienced them in battle I can't question that BUT: what if your boyz roll a 1 two or three times... no way they will do good or very good. Hell they've been wasted points! A black orc can make sure the unit moved and fights. What is the disadvantage of having one in? It makes your unit hell of a unit. Remember also black orc BSB can quell!

I already did it with BO heroes in da Boyz's units. They did need quelling AND lost 3 to 6 boyz from each quelling. Besides it's Orcs and Goblins......I blame Mork/Gork/Mickey/Goffy/Batman or whoever.

woytek
31-10-2006, 09:25
I already did it with BO heroes in da Boyz's units. They did need quelling AND lost 3 to 6 boyz from each quelling. Besides it's Orcs and Goblins......I blame Mork/Gork/Mickey/Goffy/Batman or whoever.

What do you think would have happened if the units just squabled?

Multifarious
31-10-2006, 16:06
0-6 potential deaths is rather good for what is essentially an extra turn for that unit, that they wouldn't have had without it.

Crazy Harborc
31-10-2006, 19:53
What do you think would have happened if the units just squabled?

They would stand and do nothing and lose no boys (for that turn only).....The first 7th Ed. Armybook, during game one unit of Spider riders and one unit of NGs failed two in a row.:confused: Then the DEs came to THEM:D The greenies enjoyed THAT......fanatics first ya know. Spiders rolled three sixes to hit....helllooooo poison attacks. DEs went bye bye.

woytek
01-11-2006, 11:37
They would stand and do nothing and lose no boys (for that turn only).....The first 7th Ed. Armybook, during game one unit of Spider riders and one unit of NGs failed two in a row.:confused: Then the DEs came to THEM:D The greenies enjoyed THAT......fanatics first ya know. Spiders rolled three sixes to hit....helllooooo poison attacks. DEs went bye bye.

Well sometimes it isn't that bad that units stay still, but usually you don't want your blocks to stand still for a round because we need to get in combat! I will gladly take 3.5*(2/3)=2.33 wounds.

Grimor Da Warchife
03-11-2006, 08:02
has some body used the new squig herd as a squig bomb i was thinking of takeing a smal 2 herders 3 squig unit and sendit towards the enemy as my gaming grup dont know the new rules yet it maight work only thing a have to to is to get them in a gombat with the unit that braks them not kills them all

Avian
03-11-2006, 11:18
Place the herders in front and all the squigs in the rear:

^^
GG
SS
S

That way opponents cannot attack squigs, but only gobbos.

woytek
03-11-2006, 11:27
Place the herders in front and all the squigs in the rear:

^^
GG
SS
S

That way opponents cannot attack squigs, but only gobbos.

lame :p But I wouldn't spend two special slots on squig bombs... I need SOBB, black orcs and chariots!

jahorin
03-11-2006, 11:44
regarding squigs, if i take 5 groups and arrange them into a unit. will they can rank bonus for combat resolution?

SlaaneshSlave
03-11-2006, 11:54
Abosutely. And they make a pretty good combat unit when you put all the squigs in front. Lots of attacks & a static CR of 4.

When the combat goes more than 1 turn they will eventually fail. Low Int & no armor, but that is when their bomb ability comes in...

Avian
03-11-2006, 12:51
regarding squigs, if i take 5 groups and arrange them into a unit. will they can rank bonus for combat resolution?
Anything except skirmishers and fast cavalry (Squig Herds are neither) will get a rank bonus if you have enough of them.

jahorin
03-11-2006, 13:10
thanks for the reply guys. i just wanted to make sure of that before i make my next army.

i've tried squig hoppers, they are great! a unit of 8 managed to charge some iron gut. and they killed one and with bad dice rolling they survived.

i really prefer having 2 seperate entry for the squig.

Kyuss
04-11-2006, 19:41
We bring you this quick off topic announcement....

Rate my first ever Orc List please! (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55318)

.... sorry, back to the main programme.

klinktastic
23-11-2006, 02:20
Ok, some of you guys are on the right track, most of you are not.

Heroes
Always on boars, always use black orcs, always use bsb with spirit totem. Always have them in your big blocks.

Main blocks
Use regular orcs in units of 25-30. Always use choppa/shield. NO SPEARS & NO BIG UNS These your are anvil units, you want them survivable and hardy, they can still do damage because you should have at least a big boss in there.

Support
Savages in units of 15 to 18 with 2 choppas and a musician and boss, dont waste points on a standard. These guys are a thousand times better than black orcs, cheaper and they dont care about fear.

Boar boys-both types are ok but not really worth their points and are more expensive than boar chariots. Good in units of 6 with musician and boss

Chariots-pick your flavor here, orcs are much tougher and durable

Giants-good but a little expensive

Trolls-actually not bad in units of 3 to support your generals unit. you must keep them by your general because they will do nothing otherwise. This takes discipline. Nice to not care about fear witht these guys, and have a nice charge range.

Fast cav- a mix of both wolf and spiders are good. its nice to add short bows if you have the points, but not really that necessary.

Artillery
spear chukkas-these are pretty much the only pieces you should be using. Good against cav and large targets which we have trouble with.

Other pieces are ok, but not really worth their points due to being unreliable.

Things to not do
NO SPEARS, NO BIG UNS, NO standards in any unit that you know is going to die like throw away goblin units. You will just be giving away free victory points. Do not use magic, our magic went from amazing to craptastic with this new book. There are some good spells, but without being able to channel dice to our big guys, its not worth it. I know lots of you are trying to hold on to the past, but forget about it. This is 7th ed. also known as regiment hammer. So play accordingly. Leadership is key now. Oh yeah, no wyverns unless your playing over 3k or you have a speed list.

kaulem
28-11-2006, 14:51
LOL! I love statements like "this unit always sucks" or "this unit always kicks ars"

In a game like fantasy battle, every unit can rock if it's used properly. And every unit can suck if used like an idiot, or if your unlucky.

Da GoBBo
28-11-2006, 16:13
Heroes
...always use bsb with spirit totem...

I think I'm goin to use em with a big block of Orc boy big uns with shield. This banner is awfully important and you don't want to loose it. A bsb is too vulnerable, bt a unit of big uns is quiet survivable.


Heroes
...always use black orcs...

Not really, if ye want to have a charr with yer cavalry, a black orc big boss can potentially slay it in one turn ... which would be very funny :D


Artillery
Other pieces are ok, but not really worth their points due to being unreliable.

:confused: doomdivers unreliable?


...our magic went from amazing to craptastic...

are you insane?? The new spell list has a lot of very intersting spells, and this edition you don't need a 4th lv shaman in order to have the big spells. Both goblins and orcs are valid. The spell list has improved imo, and the system, well, everybody suffers from that don't they?

Heretic Burner
28-11-2006, 21:11
Yes clearly magic is an absolute disaster in the new O&G list.

Under 6th edition rules the magic rules might even be stronger than the previous 6th edition army book but we aren't playing 6th anymore. The inability to share dice simply kills any chance of going magic heavy. Animosity is too deadly to the phase, 1/3 of the time you are doing something you most likely don't want your mages doing. A squabble and you lose use of the that wizard, enough for 5-6 or so dispell dice to pretty much end your magic phase (let alone if they have scrolls). The equivalent of free dispel scrolls to your opponent multiple times every game makes it just a mess. The O&G spell list certainly isn't strong enough to reward the added risk involved.

Even rolling a 6 ain't much better. Having mages charge into combat isn't exactly optimum under most circumstances.

I simply can't see going magic heavy anytime soon. The drawbacks are just too much, the spell lists might be even weaker, and little magic in particular has a terrible shortage of spells under 8+ to cast which are difficult for hero level shamans. Just poorly thought out, poorly tested, and poorly implemented changes to the 6th edtion O&G magic phase.

kaulem
15-12-2006, 13:41
Magic asside, I just had a game were Animosity really ruined my day... and I realized that 1 in 3 units will suffer some bad effect of animosity per turn.

If your a bit unlucky, like I was in my last game, on the turn I could have charged with 5 units, only 1 charge, the 3 others squabbled, and 1 unit moved D6" just enough so that my enemies unit was out of my line of sight.

In the previous rules, something bad..or maybe good happened to 1/6 units, now its 1/3...

klinktastic
15-12-2006, 23:47
Remember animosty roll of 6 takes you d6 at the closest visable enemy, not straight ahead. So I don't know how that would screw you unless you played it wrong.

Link
16-12-2006, 06:53
Remember animosty roll of 6 takes you d6 at the closest visable enemy, not straight ahead. So I don't know how that would screw you unless you played it wrong.

I've had my boyz give up there flanks because of We'll Show Them (wheel towards that bait unit of enemy, irregardless of that unit of bretonian knights across the table).

I've had my boyz "gang up" moving towards a unit that didnt need two blocks attacking it and leaving other units farther away unopposed.

IMO We'll Show Them is a mixed blessing. My take on it is that my army does what it wants irregardless of what I want it to do :)

Heretic Burner
17-12-2006, 00:20
Since 1/3 of the time something unwanted is likely to happen to your unit, it is extremely important to position your units to minimize this risk. I have a feeling this is going to be an extremely steep learning curve for me to adapt (let alone say a 12 year old warhammer beginner just moving on from Skull Pass). Bait units even a fraction of an inch closer than the threat can cause all sorts of damage to your plan so its important to predict what your opponent will do in his movement phase.

In faster moving O&G units (ie spider riders, wolf riders, etc) I believe angling more from the sides than previously will be crucial. By that I mean bait units can quite easily prevent charges if they turn your units direction on a We'll Show Them result. Anticipating how much distance to keep for LOS even on a 6 is going to save many games.

Da GoBBo
18-12-2006, 15:15
I couldn't agree more. It is goin to happen, so take it into account. Movement is what this game is all about, even more so with orcs and goblins. That's why ye can have so many units :D use thos numbers to yer advantage.

2thesword
17-08-2007, 04:28
Yes clearly magic is an absolute disaster in the new O&G list.

Animosity is too deadly to the phase, 1/3 of the time you are doing something you most likely don't want your mages doing. A squabble and you lose use of the that wizard, enough for 5-6 or so dispell dice to pretty much end your magic phase (let alone if they have scrolls)....
Even rolling a 6 ain't much better. Having mages charge into combat isn't exactly optimum under most circumstances.


so put them in units that don't roll animosity like war machines (or with trolls). I'm seriously considering an offensive magic army against my mate's wood elf army... I can't compete in the movement phase (not with all the trees around) and if I can't dominate movement than it is a lot harder to dominate combat... this leaves shooting (its about even - he shoots a lot more, but with S3 against T4 or dirt-cheap screans it doesn't matter) and magic.

Malendil
07-05-2009, 15:32
Wow there has not been a post in here for a Long while. I was just wondering what tactics any fellow Orc & goblins players out there would use against a Skaven army that is not light on shooting and warp lightning (1 Cannon and 2 Mages casting with warp tokens at irresistable force for the first two turns). We played 1500pts and my army was shot to pieces before I could get into combat. Animosity certainly did not help me either as my fast cav units basically stayed at my battle line for the first two turns.

Also what is the general consensus about bolt throwers (2) in 1500 pts vs skaven? Are they worth it? Mine only hit once over four turns... is this just bad luck or is killing 10 5pt guys just not worth it? 70 pts could get another fast cav unit for some redundant protection vs animosity.

Any tips are appreciated.

pkain762
07-05-2009, 16:53
I have a vision of just hundreds of orc models in a 2000 pt game.... so many orks, they can't kill them all hahaha.

yes a Green Tide!!!

it's in the process of getting thrown togther..... i'll learn the tactics as i go... nothing like OJT

kain

rtunian
07-05-2009, 17:11
Wow there has not been a post in here for a Long while. I was just wondering what tactics any fellow Orc & goblins players out there would use against a Skaven army that is not light on shooting and warp lightning (1 Cannon and 2 Mages casting with warp tokens at irresistable force for the first two turns). We played 1500pts and my army was shot to pieces before I could get into combat. Animosity certainly did not help me either as my fast cav units basically stayed at my battle line for the first two turns.

Also what is the general consensus about bolt throwers (2) in 1500 pts vs skaven? Are they worth it? Mine only hit once over four turns... is this just bad luck or is killing 10 5pt guys just not worth it? 70 pts could get another fast cav unit for some redundant protection vs animosity.

Any tips are appreciated.

cheap goblin screeners. put them out in front so that your combat units can get into combat without being too shot/nuked up. if/when the gobs panic, no big deal, the orcs don't care.

rock lobbas & doom divers are very useful against a tightly packed horde army, add them to your shooting. chuckas should be going after the cannon and any other hard targets, not the infantry.

Nuada
07-05-2009, 17:22
Wow there has not been a post in here for a Long while.

There was an O&G tactics page more recently than this thread. If I remember correctly the thread was titled Da Boss's Hut. That might help you.

Shiodome
07-05-2009, 18:12
cheap goblin screeners. put them out in front so that your combat units can get into combat without being too shot/nuked up. if/when the gobs panic, no big deal, the orcs don't care.

rock lobbas & doom divers are very useful against a tightly packed horde army, add them to your shooting. chuckas should be going after the cannon and any other hard targets, not the infantry.


i find goblin screening units deployed in front an utter liability... animosity in a couple of those front units can wreck the line/plan completely. i've had more success just having units big enough to shrug off magic/shooting, and fast cavalry on the flanks to rush in front of the line in later turns for charge redirecting etc.

Dag
08-05-2009, 17:43
boars suck so i field a big foot force, 25bot units and 18blorcks, fast cav for screens / flanks. their 60 pnts for fodder, not terrible. squig hoppers cuz well, they are op, chariot for my spec usually, field almost no shooting. big meat grinder, works well.

rtunian
08-05-2009, 18:34
i find goblin screening units deployed in front an utter liability... animosity in a couple of those front units can wreck the line/plan completely. i've had more success just having units big enough to shrug off magic/shooting, and fast cavalry on the flanks to rush in front of the line in later turns for charge redirecting etc.

animosity can wreck every plan!
does that mean that you shouldn't make any plans? :p

i do see what you mean, though, but i'm not suggesting having 2 full battle lines. rather, put gobs in front of the pricier/smaller units... the hammer units, really. anvils don't need the protection because they should already be large like you suggest. hammers, on the other hand, tend to be too pricey to buff up so large.

anyway don't get me wrong, i do see and agree with one critical facet of your counter-argument, which is that it's important for greenskin generals to try to minimize the effects of animosity.

the way i look at it, either way it's a gamble, but that's life as a warboss

Nuada
08-05-2009, 20:15
You may as well put your night goblins behind your orc boyz, put a BlOrc hero in with the orcs, and march forward. Make your orc units fairly large, have a few fanatics with the NG's. Repeat this a few times.

Then you do two things, you absorb alot of shooting, and you've got a very good defense against any charges.(death throes) You also never suffer from squabbling this way. I'd rather lose a few orcs to a BlOrc character than lose a turn of movement. I usually find i'm shot and lose more orcs due to not moving and getting into combat that turn

Malendil
08-05-2009, 21:22
Has anyone found snotling bases to be any good at screening? I was leafing through the book and they do not suffer from animosity and are immune to psychology. That might be a good option to soak up some fire for the first turn or so.

On another note, what do other Orc generals use to protect their warmachines? I realize that Spear Chukkas are only 35 points and not worth protecting but lets say you have a spear chukka and a rock lobba on one flank, obviously the longer you can keep these alive the more damage you can do. So has anyone found anything effective to protect this? I was looking at 20 NG with bows has anyone tried this? or is it better to leave the warmachines and use the points to make the orc boy units bigger?

Shiodome
08-05-2009, 21:35
For warmachine protection i just use 10-14 'arrer boys. they're more than tough enough to deal with any flanking fast cavalry (str4/t4) and the bows help out too. i try to have more than 10 models in the arrer boyz unit if i've got the points (ideally more than 12) so i've got the outnumber bonus vs average fast cavalry unit size of 5 (unit strength 10) plus a rank.

WarlockOMork
09-05-2009, 03:38
is it me or are there ~5 seperate greenskin tactica's. (Greenskins and tactics? x) )

couldnt we just have 1 and be done with it :p.

Saves me/you/us from having to look al over the place for any tactical idea's. :)


Then again we are greenskins, more Chaosy and all over the place then chaos it self :D

bigunns
09-05-2009, 03:57
greenskin tactics.... FLY BY THE SEAT OF YOUR PANTS!! hahahaha basically though thats kind of what it is.... i say 3 blocks maybe 4 of night goblins in between each unit make 1 archers ... and put 2-3 fanatics in each unit .... theres your tactics

Malendil
09-05-2009, 04:17
is it me or are there ~5 seperate greenskin tactica's. (Greenskins and tactics? x) )

couldnt we just have 1 and be done with it :p.

Saves me/you/us from having to look al over the place for any tactical idea's. :)


Then again we are greenskins, more Chaosy and all over the place then chaos it self :D

I know it seems pretty disorganized, however, this is pretty Orcish as you mentioned ;). I found this one by following the link in Tactica Round Up sticky thread on page one of the Tactics forum, so I figured it was the right one to post in.

Dungeon_Lawyer
09-05-2009, 07:53
For warmachine protection i just use 10-14 'arrer boys. they're more than tough enough to deal with any flanking fast cavalry (str4/t4) and the bows help out too. i try to have more than 10 models in the arrer boyz unit if i've got the points (ideally more than 12) so i've got the outnumber bonus vs average fast cavalry unit size of 5 (unit strength 10) plus a rank.

hhhmmmm thats not half bad, I never thought of arrer boys, and in units of 12 no less so they usually will outnumber fast cav. Good stuff.:cool:

Shiodome
09-05-2009, 12:09
if you do try it out, bear in mind that the arrer boyz can panic your warmachines (which is the only downside, as goblins won't panic your warmachines as long as you have bullies). but as long as you take it into account when deploying etc then it's not much of a problem

Dungeon_Lawyer
10-05-2009, 12:34
if you do try it out, bear in mind that the arrer boyz can panic your warmachines (which is the only downside, as goblins won't panic your warmachines as long as you have bullies). but as long as you take it into account when deploying etc then it's not much of a problem

:)
Thats another thing I have never thought of, orc bullies to prevent my marchines from panic. BRAVO sir!

Man sometimes I just luv warseer! Learning about different army builds/tactic sand then the things that like a tree branch away from it. There is just so much to this game.

HannibalSW
11-05-2009, 11:28
if you do try it out, bear in mind that the arrer boyz can panic your warmachines (which is the only downside, as goblins won't panic your warmachines as long as you have bullies). but as long as you take it into account when deploying etc then it's not much of a problem

Yes, this is a downside of sceening warmachines with archers. I saw my bret friend screened his treb nicely with a line of archers. Instead of wasting all my arrows on armored knights, I shot that bowmen unit enough to cause a panic test, he wasn't in range of any knights, failed his 5 ld roll, ran through the trebuchet, and they promptly joined their peasant friends dust trail. It was beautiful!

The orks should have more staying power with T4 against bows. Maybe slightly better leadership than a 5 as well.

Nuada
11-05-2009, 13:52
I've also found the other disadvantage with screening your war machines (i guess this can apply to any army) is if your archers lose the combat and flee, the enemy can then pursue into your war machines.

Whereas the enemy unit may have been out of range against your war machines initially. So you're effectively giving him an extra 2d6 or 3d6 extra movement towards your war machines.

My TK opponent often screens his screaming skull catapults or casket of souls with archers. I love it when he does, because when all those archers crumble i can overrun into his casket or screaming skull without taking any fear/terror tests.

Shiodome
11-05-2009, 17:13
to be honest, if you're sending something hard enough to break ranked, outnumbering toughness 4 orcs you're welcome to overrunn into my warmachines... they're worth 35 points and the unit you sent after them is likely worth significantly more. i'm happy taking a threat out of the picture however it happens... if it involves sacrificing goblins, then all the better! :D

whirlygutz
13-05-2009, 16:30
if it involves sacrificing goblins, then all the better!
no not the goblins!! nooooooo

Urgat
13-05-2009, 16:39
to be honest, if you're sending something hard enough to break ranked, outnumbering toughness 4 orcs you're welcome to overrunn into my warmachines... they're worth 35 points and the unit you sent after them is likely worth significantly more. i'm happy taking a threat out of the picture however it happens... if it involves sacrificing goblins, then all the better! :D

Well, one would argue that it's the warmachine that is important, not the gobs; and, more importantly, that probably means you have quite a tough unit right in your back now... not a best case scenario if you ask me :p

Stuffburger
13-05-2009, 23:52
Anyone found any good ways for dealing with nurgle chaos warriors? I've had decent luck with chariots, doom divers and spear chukkas but once they get into close combat it doesn't matter much how badly I flank/rear/gang up on them. I just finished a game where I attacked a unit of 12 with 25 2x choppa orcs, 30 NG spearmen and a boar chariot. I won that combat, but then they fled, rallied and the remaining 5 proceeded to lay waste to all of the orcs and chariot before finally dying to the goblins.

Shiodome
14-05-2009, 00:50
big uns and black orcs? so at least you're still hitting on 4's? them being able to take a banner helps too, i.e banner of butchery. or fantics (only a 6+ save) or doom divers (no save) neither of which rely on BS/WS. *shrug* i tend to bounce of warriors too, often flanking them isn't worth it... they don't have a rank bonus anyway, and the +1 for flank charge is normally not enough to compensate for the number of kills they get on the flanking unit (flankers normally being fast but weak).

a combi charge of n.goblins w/nets + chariot might work?

pkain762
14-05-2009, 05:13
just starting an orc army, i want to know what are some of the most effective techniques/units you've used in friendly games and tourneys

warlord hack'a
14-05-2009, 11:34
start reading from the first page I suggest pkain762, or go to http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/index.php

good luck!

selone
14-05-2009, 14:41
Anyone found any good ways for dealing with nurgle chaos warriors? I've had decent luck with chariots, doom divers and spear chukkas but once they get into close combat it doesn't matter much how badly I flank/rear/gang up on them. I just finished a game where I attacked a unit of 12 with 25 2x choppa orcs, 30 NG spearmen and a boar chariot. I won that combat, but then they fled, rallied and the remaining 5 proceeded to lay waste to all of the orcs and chariot before finally dying to the goblins.

What equipment and standard are they wielding? (and how many was there at start of the game) if hes getting chaos warriors into combat with your troops with anything like an effective unit left he's done very well for himself.
I apologise if this sounds patronising but they should be marchblocked asaip and either avoided are shot to pieces then fought. The latter half of my advice seems to have happened mind I'm a little suprised 5 only warriors managed to kill so much. They either would have had 3 attacks apiece or 10 attacks at s5/s6 9with no sheild) or 10 s4 attacks still not bad admittedly but not something you shouldnt be able to deal with.

You simply can't or shouldn't fight chaos warriors in combat unless you've got a dual charge (like you did) or you have very killy troops (which orcs struggle with, likely hitting on 5's)

Storak
14-05-2009, 15:22
You simply can't or shouldn't fight chaos warriors in combat unless you've got a dual charge (like you did) or you have very killy troops (which orcs struggle with, likely hitting on 5's)

i would be very careful about dual charging warriors. if they have a serious number of ranks to eliminate from combat result, they will get a serious number of additional attacks (unless you bring models that on average kill a chaos warrior each..)

if they are slaughtering gobbos to the front, it s quite unclear whether a flank charge unit wont simply be defeated by the front combat res alone.

selone
14-05-2009, 17:11
i would be very careful about dual charging warriors. if they have a serious number of ranks to eliminate from combat result, they will get a serious number of additional attacks (unless you bring models that on average kill a chaos warrior each..)

if they are slaughtering gobbos to the front, it s quite unclear whether a flank charge unit wont simply be defeated by the front combat res alone.

Are you sure?
If you flank charged a unit of even 3 deep chaos warriors then they'd get an additional 2 models fighting (as the front one would likely be fighting anyways for the loss of +2 ranks and a +1 to you for side attacks.
If you charged with orc boyz/biguns/bl orcs (which is what you should) it's not too unbelieveable you'd kill one (unless he went HW + shields then hes got 4 a hitting on 3's wounding on 4's and you'll get a save).
He then has to get enough CR from hitting T4 4+ save armed troops to make up for the loss of 3 CR caused by the flank charge which is optimistic.

So, no a flank charge isn't a bad idea.

If your argument is just that 2 units in an orc and goblin army would lose against one unit of nurgle chaos warriors, that may well be true. It would depend on what banner the nurgle warriors had and what options they'd chosen. Of course it also depends on what units the orc player charged in with. I can't imagine you'd have much success if you charged in with 2 units of common gobbos but I can't imagine that a person would do that voluntarily.

You could probably work out the maths for yourself-
Lets get all theorycraft if a unit of say 18 nurgle CW 6x3 (lets say with halberds) is charged by two units of 25 orcs with choppas and shields. The orc player would have a cr of lets say +6 (3 ranks, outnumber, standard, flank charge) and the nurgle player would start off with a cr of +1 (standard).

The orc player would have 9 models in b2b lets say so 3 hits, one and a half wounds, half a save= 1 casualty caused (assuming no characters). The nurgle chaos warriors would have 8 models in B2B but one had been killed so they'd hit back with 14 S5 hits. 9.3 hits would result and that would be 6.2 wounds. After saves that would be 5.1 orcs dead (lets say 5)
So the orc player has a CR of 7 and the nurgle player 6 so the chaos player would have a break test of 7 or less to make.

For the record if they had 2hw the nurgle warriors would have had 21 A, 14 hits, 7 wounds and after saves 4.66 orcs would die so would come off worse than if they'd use halberds. So you'd be losing combat by 1-2 in this case.

Using hand weapon and shield would be a foolish option for the nurgle warriors, they'd suffer 0.5 wounds rather than they 1 suffered and get 14 s4 attacks back 9.3 would hit back of which 4.6 would wound and after saves youd cause 3.1 wounds (say 3) and we'd assume the orcs would do 0.5.
That's a loss of 2-3 and potentially a tricky Ld 5 test to make.

Now in the following 3 previous examples we saw that orcs would win combat between one to three obviosuly you'd expect them to hold with LD 7 and flee with LD 5 not taking into BSB reroll although even with a bsb reroll if beaten by 3 they should fail.
Source- http://folk.ntnu.no/~tarjeia/avian/calculations/calc_leadership.php

None of these 3 examples is devesating with the orcs and every 1 has the normal 6pt orcs winning. Now I know what you're thinking the CW will hold and in the next round the chaos warriors will crump them. Yes its true if the CW's had halberds next round they'd possibly beat the orcs but not tremendously so in any case and the combat would be very close to a draw. This is the worst possible case scenario for the orcs as well, other scenarios play it more favourably.

Now I'm not advocating that you should set out your battle plan to double charge CW's or that its easy to do, I by far recommend march blocking them and whittling them down. However if by some chance your opponent gets them unmolested to your battle lines its not too bad to dual charge them and infinitely better than them charging you.

BTW
2 units of 25 orcs with full command, shields and 1 unit of 18 CW marked with nurgle, FC, halberds and shields are remarkably similar in points cost. orcs = 360 nurgle = 366

Oh BTW no 2
Do you use goblins storak in your armies, do you use them to fight other armies troops?

Shiodome
14-05-2009, 17:39
i've never seen chaos warriors in 3 ranks :o units of 12 seems the norm where i play, in which case the flank charge is rarely worth it. i can't imagine a WoC player wasting that many points in abaltive ranks o_O that's what maruaders are for.

Storak
14-05-2009, 18:28
the problem with all your examples is: it would have been better to NOT dual-charge them, but to only charge the flank.

the unit charging the front is just giving away combat result, it doesn t add anything positive.

so my advice remains the same: i would be very careful about dual charging warriors


BTW
2 units of 25 orcs with full command, shields and 1 unit of 18 CW marked with nurgle, FC, halberds and shields are remarkably similar in points cost. orcs = 360 nurgle = 366

in the unlikely event that you get a dual charge off (let us assume that the unit to the front is forced to charge because of a waaagh move), they have a minor chance to beat them during the first turn of combat. they will suffer badly afterwards.


Oh BTW no 2
Do you use goblins storak in your armies, do you use them to fight other armies troops?

i did reply to an example that mentioned gobbos.

but one should be extremely careful about charging gobbos of any type against any side of a warriors unit. this has a huge potential for disaster ...

selone
14-05-2009, 19:39
i've never seen chaos warriors in 3 ranks :o units of 12 seems the norm where i play, in which case the flank charge is rarely worth it. i can't imagine a WoC player wasting that many points in abaltive ranks o_O that's what maruaders are for.

from the first page of warhammer.org
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=54946 post #3
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=55958
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=58213

from the first page of warseer
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188643
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194998
Admittedly they're chosen not warriors, there's bound to be more reports on warseer with them, if you search for champion of khorne he seems to post in a lot of Br's with chaos in. Some of the BR's will have 15-20 warriors in, some will have 10-14 (2 ranks) and some none.

There's more BR's of people using Chaos warriors ranked to have a +2 CR ie 3 ranks if you read through Warseer/warhammer org/other BR sites

Some people don't use marauders or chaos warriors at all ;)for the record I'm not advocating in favour of or against taking 18 chaos warriors or indeed taking wariors at all.


the problem with all your examples is: it would have been better to NOT dual-charge them, but to only charge the flank.

the unit charging the front is just giving away combat result, it doesn t add anything positive.

so my advice remains the same: i would be very careful about dual charging warriors

in the unlikely event that you get a dual charge off (let us assume that the unit to the front is forced to charge because of a waaagh move), they have a minor chance to beat them during the first turn of combat. they will suffer badly afterwards.

i did reply to an example that mentioned gobbos.

but one should be extremely careful about charging gobbos of any type against any side of a warriors unit. this has a huge potential for disaster ...

You first said-

i would be very careful about dual charging warriors. if they have a serious number of ranks to eliminate from combat result, they will get a serious number of additional attacks (unless you bring models that on average kill a chaos warrior each..)

if they are slaughtering gobbos to the front, it s quite unclear whether a flank charge unit wont simply be defeated by the front combat res alone.

Which naturally caused me to examine the affects of the second unit charging in, ie the flank unit. Your advice was based on the supposition that there was already gobbos being slaughtered and then you question whether the reduction of rank bonus is worth the flank charge (which it is)

The question of whether to duel charge or not depends on many factors such as quality of units whether you can get a flank or rear charge or not. If indeed in this theoretical example you can guarantee a flank charge with just one unit then you should do it, I can take that point :). Unless of course you have two very powerful units or a unit of boar boyz and a rank and file unit, the situations may not be too common but they do exist and we are well in the bounds of theory :)

I've already gone through the maths on the combats storak whilst you may be amazed the orcs should win combat by a margin influenced by the chaos warriors weapons. The second round of combat should not go as well but it shouldnt be a disaster (remember the orcs cr is mainly coming from static and they won't lose much more) and obviously if you lose the combat it's more advantageous to have 2 units in combat, by the 3rd round of combat its orcs move again.

Yes you replied to an example that involved gobbo'd but thats not the question, do you use goblins in your army when you play games? and if so how do you utilise them. You say that you should be careful about charging gobbos into CW's and thats obviously sound advice but not whether you use gobbos and in what role.

Storak
14-05-2009, 20:28
Which naturally caused me to examine the affects of the second unit charging in, ie the flank unit. Your advice was based on the supposition that there was already gobbos being slaughtered and then you question whether the reduction of rank bonus is worth the flank charge (which it is)

if the unit is slaughtering gobbos to the front, adding anything to the flank is pretty risky.
6 dual-wielding warriors on the front would kill 8 gobbos, with no real return damage. ouch.


Yes you replied to an example that involved gobbo'd but thats not the question, do you use goblins in your army when you play games? and if so how do you utilise them. You say that you should be careful about charging gobbos into CW's and thats obviously sound advice but not whether you use gobbos and in what role.

i use fast cav and minimum NG units for fanatics. and i simply know that it is tempting to charge units in, especially if you can get a flank or you hope to get extra ranks or to nullify his.

against warriors that is dangerous.

the problem isn t even the average results that you calculated above. the warriors are rolling a big number of dice, and can generate extreme results, that might decide battles. those 2 (or much worse 3) warriors on the flank can wipe out a unit of fast cav and turn an additional +1 or +2 bonus into a -4 or -5 disaster.

selone
14-05-2009, 20:38
Hmm 6 duel wielding warriors would kill 8 gobbo's per turn? For the sake of this example mentioned by stuffburger I'm going to say they have MoN so thats 18 S4 attacks. I'll use 2 examples common ('ardgrots) goblins with shields, and nightgoblins with nets and shields. They obviously would murder night gobbos with s bows although its a whacky world when chaos warriors are fighting stikka grots :)

Versus 'ard grots
18 attacks, 12 hits. 8 wounds after saves = 5.33 dead.

Versus netters (we're assuming CW's get netted)
18 attacks, 12 hits. 6 wounds. 2 saves. = They kill 4

Neither of which were 8 if they had frenzy they'd kill 5.33 night gobbo netters and yeah 8-9 ard grots.
Not to be funny but theres something really weird if a frenzied warrior unit is charging gobbos and getting into base to base with them, run away you cowardly grots :)

Night gobbo netters wouldn't do too bad though against non frenzied troops and if you did get a flank change on them with the netters already in combat you'd have a cr of +6 plus whatever the flank charging unit did. They'd do 4 wounds to your netters and have +1 for standard and would need to do one more wound to your flanking unit than your flanking unit did to them to draw combat, 2 to win.

You're right it is tempting to charge unit's in tot he flank when you can but you often shouldn't. Charging fast cav into CW flanks/rears is likely to be very hard on the fast cav (though I have charged spider riders on their own on the last turn of the game into the rear of a depleted chosen unit and won- he had 3 in the second rank which I killed all of) and you generally shouldn't do it, but there are always exceptions.
However in the above example certain units boar boyz, black orcs should probably have been okay in the flank against between 6-12 S3 attacks. 9 S3 attacks hitting on a 3 would kill one normal 6pt boy.

Yes with a large amount of dice thrown there can be extreme swings either way but obviously whilst the dice could roll big, they could roll poor. Theres chance of both events. My example of the spider riders outperforming themself is proof of that. Not able to predict the future alas :( I have to resort to talking about average or likely situations.

You're probably using goblins the right way (ie not to fight) however I'm unconvinced by miminum size night gobbos with fanatics unless its only 1 fanatic for threat purposes (just too much Vp's and you can't flee without losing all fanatics)and I am very tempted to continue my netter unit which does fight things (with attendant heros in the unit mind) as I've had some success with it. Clearly however you shouldn't be fighting untouched frenzied warriors with unsupported gobbos of any variety :)

Shiodome
14-05-2009, 22:30
course you should :D i send all kinds of unsupported gobbos agaisnt frenzied troops, because i know the gobbos will lose and run, and i know the frenzied guys MUST pursue... which can be very very useful.

Storak
15-05-2009, 13:18
Hmm 6 duel wielding warriors would kill 8 gobbo's per turn? For the sake of this example mentioned by stuffburger I'm going to say they have MoN so thats 18 S4 attacks. I'll use 2 examples common ('ardgrots) goblins with shields, and nightgoblins with nets and shields. They obviously would murder night gobbos with s bows although its a whacky world when chaos warriors are fighting stikka grots :)

Versus 'ard grots
18 attacks, 12 hits. 8 wounds after saves = 5.33 dead.

Versus netters (we're assuming CW's get netted)
18 attacks, 12 hits. 6 wounds. 2 saves. = They kill 4

Neither of which were 8 if they had frenzy they'd kill 5.33 night gobbo netters and yeah 8-9 ard grots.
Not to be funny but theres something really weird if a frenzied warrior unit is charging gobbos and getting into base to base with them, run away you cowardly grots :)

Night gobbo netters wouldn't do too bad though against non frenzied troops and if you did get a flank change on them with the netters already in combat you'd have a cr of +6 plus whatever the flank charging unit did. They'd do 4 wounds to your netters and have +1 for standard and would need to do one more wound to your flanking unit than your flanking unit did to them to draw combat, 2 to win.

common gobbos with shield are such a rare sight on the battlefield, that i wouldn t waste time by making calculations about them.

if you assume combat with nets for multiple turns,. you need to factor in the possibility of rolling that 1, once in a while.


You're right it is tempting to charge unit's in tot he flank when you can but you often shouldn't. Charging fast cav into CW flanks/rears is likely to be very hard on the fast cav (though I have charged spider riders on their own on the last turn of the game into the rear of a depleted chosen unit and won- he had 3 in the second rank which I killed all of) and you generally shouldn't do it, but there are always exceptions.
However in the above example certain units boar boyz, black orcs should probably have been okay in the flank against between 6-12 S3 attacks. 9 S3 attacks hitting on a 3 would kill one normal 6pt boy.

as i said in my very first post: just be careful about dual charges. i still see only a handful of situations in which you should do it.


You're probably using goblins the right way (ie not to fight) however I'm unconvinced by miminum size night gobbos with fanatics unless its only 1 fanatic for threat purposes (just too much Vp's and you can't flee without losing all fanatics)and I am very tempted to continue my netter unit which does fight things (with attendant heros in the unit mind) as I've had some success with it. Clearly however you shouldn't be fighting untouched frenzied warriors with unsupported gobbos of any variety :)

i tend to use 2 fanatics, but i am not happy with those units at all.
with the nets, gobbos become nearly as expensive as orcs, while they still remain very vulnerable to shooting.

selone
15-05-2009, 16:09
Common gobbos are rare yes but I added them to my calculations for completeness. It's a shame but in most peoples eyes there by far eclipsed by night goblins, unless you're worried about your goblins getting shot up, which you do mention. The statistics show that night gobbos with nets are much better in combat. Yes they can get a 1 and the longer the combat goes on the more likely that is but unless the combat goes into 3 or more hand to hand phases statistically you should be fine. And hey if they've got into 3 hand hand to hand phases somethings crazy is going on.

And as I said in my first post You simply can't or shouldn't fight chaos warriors in combat unless you've got a dual charge (like you did) or you have very killy troops (which orcs struggle with, likely hitting on 5's) and then I by far recommend march blocking them and whittling them down. However if by some chance your opponent gets them unmolested to your battle lines its not too bad to dual charge them and infinitely better than them charging you.

I wouldn't use 2 fanatics in a unit now having tried units with 1, 2 or 3 fanatics in. My thoughts now are you should either run 1 in a minimum number (I prefer units of 21) night gobbo unit for disruption or run 3 in a decently sized ready to fight night gobbo unit. Sadly 3 fanatics in a unit makes the parent unit fairly tasty VP wise so you can't sacrifice them easily.

I have to say my gobbos getting shot doesn't worry me that much, they're only 4 points each after all :)

HannibalSW
17-05-2009, 20:20
Bought myself a shiney new green Orcs and Goblins codex today, looking forward to some Ork filled afternoons in the future! :D Do you guys recommend the Battalion box or Army box as starters?

WarlockOMork
17-05-2009, 20:23
the BFSP box. :)

selone
17-05-2009, 22:13
Bought myself a shiney new green Orcs and Goblins codex today, looking forward to some Ork filled afternoons in the future! :D Do you guys recommend the Battalion box or Army box as starters?

Don't get the army box unless you're sure you'll use black orcs. Don't get BFSP unless you want loads of night gobbos you'll have to convert.
The battalion is a pretty good buy.

Cousteau
18-05-2009, 01:26
What do you guys think of this for an all Night Goblin list?


Night Goblin Big Boss Akkrit Axe, Tricksy Trinket Light Armor, shield 88
Night Goblin Big Boss BSB Light Armor Big Red Banner 107
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2 Staff of Sneaky Stealin 135

40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 2 Fanatics FC 265
40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 2 Fanatics FC --265
40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 1 Fanatics FC --240

5 Squig Hoppers 75
5 Squig Hoppers 75

1250

WarlockOMork
18-05-2009, 01:30
would make them all shamans, as goblins cant fight anywayz :p (chars or not) (unless you put them on those nifty (Giant) squigs)

and them beeing all night goblins it wouldnt make much of a diffrence in leadership either.

Hoppers are awsome tho, Go hoppers :D

Urgat
18-05-2009, 06:21
What do you guys think of this for an all Night Goblin list?


Night Goblin Big Boss Akkrit Axe, Tricksy Trinket Light Armor, shield 88
Night Goblin Big Boss BSB Light Armor Big Red Banner 107
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2 Staff of Sneaky Stealin 135

40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 2 Fanatics FC 265
40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 2 Fanatics FC --265
40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 1 Fanatics FC --240

5 Squig Hoppers 75
5 Squig Hoppers 75

1250

Well I think you'll lose to any kind of shooting or psychology or magic, really.

WarlockOMork
18-05-2009, 12:11
well anyone who does play pure night goblins probaly does so for fun, not to win.
But yes a fix for any of those phases would help,

hence i suggest upgrading them to mages, so you at least win the magic phase,
leaves you psycho, hm.. you could get skarsnik to fix that for you :p

And well shooting? nightgoblins dont really got a fix for that besides awsome numbers.
(wich is a fix in and onto it self)

Just dont forget to screen your hoppers a lot.

Urgat
18-05-2009, 14:02
leaves you psycho, hm.. you could get skarsnik to fix that for you :p

Not at 1250pts ;)
As for shooting, sure they normaly don't suffer from it because of their large numbers, but also because there's usually more interesting things to shoot at. When you've got nothing else but them to shoot at, focused fire on one unit can make it panic on one turn (I've often experienced that first hand). And the only hitty things (squigs) will go down in a blink to massed fire, if they're targetable. The other units, they have no support, they can be dealt with in melee by most other troops, nets and biig bosses or not, because they'll get overpowered and outmaneuvered by any other army that will have cavalry (light and heavy) and other choices the gobs won't have.
I can understand the idea of playing that for fun, but I doubt it is actually fun to play. Frustrating, yes; fun?

rtunian
18-05-2009, 14:30
night goblin lists can include snotlings, snotling pump wagons, trolls, and giants, and still be considered night goblin lists. snotlings are part of every greenskin horde, trolls are dumb enough to be led by anyone, and giants always follow the beer.

the only things that you can't include (and still legitimately call it a night goblin list) are forest goblins, common goblins (including all o&g war machines), and obviously orcs.

i personally would drop 1 unit to 35, and trade out the spears for nets on it, then drop the other 2 units to 25, and with the difference in points, add 2 pump wagons and a unit of 21 ng bowmen, and 1 more hopper for each unit, and either a pair of squig herds, a trio of snotling bases, or another block of 21 bowmen. i would also put musicians in all of the ng blocks, and a standard in the netter block.

WarlockOMork
18-05-2009, 14:35
ups, forgot the 1250 part, yes skarsnik would be out then.

If your willing to include snotlings and stuff in your all night goblins list, then yes, Pump wagons are awsome. (if taken n mass)

(cant believe some one would field them without having nets tho, those things are godlike) (especialy if you go Hand weapon & Shield) (would save some points as well)
Yes, Go net power :D (and go Hw & Shield)

Night goblins with bows are only usefull if your enemy fields large targets inmo tho.
(if he does theyr quite nice)

And any non pump wagon snotlings arent worth fielding inmo, might as well take more night goblins instead.

Urgat
18-05-2009, 15:39
her...


40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 2 Fanatics FC –265
40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 2 Fanatics FC --265
40 Night Goblins with Spears Nets 1 Fanatics FC --240


The nets are there or I can't read :p
Of all the things that night gobs can take, only the giants and pump wagons are interesting really. A night goblin hero's Ld is too low for trolls, and snots are, well, snots. Really w/o at least some light cavalry, I can't see how one can wish to achieve anything. There's a reason why most of all those so-called night gob armies you see on warseer have converted night gobs on wolves or spiders: because the true night gob army does not work fine.
An all gob army is already quite difficult to play with as it is, really, so removing all the common and forest gob elements, that's downright masochistic. Most people who claim playing night gob armies use common gob big/warboss stats, converted wolves, spearchukkas, etc.

rtunian
18-05-2009, 17:14
right but the point is, they are not playing ng armies if they use those things.

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that it's ever a good idea to refuse to use the strongest units in your bestiary in favor of a themed army. it's not. ever. you are almost always going to have a better chance of winning with a strong list than a weak one.

however, if you don't care about the w/l outcome but you want a fun themed army, then you can do it with night goblins and have plenty of flavor, because there are many units that conform to an ng-only list, which is exactly the reason why i listed snotlings in addition to pump wagons, and trolls in addition to giants.

besides, some people ARE masochistic :skull:

Urgat
18-05-2009, 17:59
right but the point is, they are not playing ng armies if they use those things.

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that it's ever a good idea to refuse to use the strongest units in your bestiary in favor of a themed army. it's not. ever. you are almost always going to have a better chance of winning with a strong list than a weak one.

however, if you don't care about the w/l outcome but you want a fun themed army, then you can do it with night goblins and have plenty of flavor, because there are many units that conform to an ng-only list, which is exactly the reason why i listed snotlings in addition to pump wagons, and trolls in addition to giants.

besides, some people ARE masochistic :skull:

I totally agree with you, you know :). I play all gobs for a reason, I could field savage boar boyz with butcher''s banner or things like that, I know they rock, I've tried them, but I like my mini-greens better. But really, just night gobs, that's pushing it imho :).
Oh and yeah, that was a critici.. crit... her, the name for " to criticize" in english, in disguise, the comment about converted wolves, etc. So many people who say they play night gob armies and do that, it irritates me :p
I'm playing all gobs, and I'm endeavouring (slowly, granted) at adding normal (nion-night) gob units, because my theme calls for it. Though I've kind of pulled a stop to that, I don't like the scale disparities, so I'm trying to get older metal gobs instead, no more of those inflated plastic gobs (those will become hobgoblins in the future). I already own five metal wolf riders from baaaaaaaaaack then, so I will... her... stop derailling the topic. Sorry 'bout that.

D'Haran
05-09-2009, 05:18
I'm seriously dismayed with my fellow greenskins. Why has nobody considered a magic heavy OG list? It's the best cc magic in the game, the synergy you can create with a few units of orcs and some shamans is amazing, not to mention the spell Waaagh! I mean moving 2D6 inches, considered charge, always strike first and reroll misses in the next combat?! Not to mention you might be lucky enough to get it off 2x in the same turn. Often is the time I go second, declared a Waaagh after my enemy moves 8 inches, then get the spell off to create 8+3D6 inch movement (average 17 inches) which means I can usually charge any kind of cav first turn. Even if I don't get it off first turn orc magic is amazing and I believe it's far easier to make up your points in the magic phase than with those cc hero choices (baring the bsb of course).

Axis
05-09-2009, 06:13
I'm seriously dismayed with my fellow greenskins. Why has nobody considered a magic heavy OG list? It's the best cc magic in the game, the synergy you can create with a few units of orcs and some shamans is amazing, not to mention the spell Waaagh! I mean moving 2D6 inches, considered charge, always strike first and reroll misses in the next combat?! Not to mention you might be lucky enough to get it off 2x in the same turn. Often is the time I go second, declared a Waaagh after my enemy moves 8 inches, then get the spell off to create 8+3D6 inch movement (average 17 inches) which means I can usually charge any kind of cav first turn. Even if I don't get it off first turn orc magic is amazing and I believe it's far easier to make up your points in the magic phase than with those cc hero choices (baring the bsb of course).

Have you seen our miscast table :D:D.

Seriously though, i find OnG works better with fighty characters. Orc heroes are pretty good with some good magic items to choose from. Orcs also have the ability to get decent dispel without maxing wizards so don't suffer from taking a fighty approach. Also a lot of the time OnG units aren't that good without fighty characters so even if you get super spells off your units still dont have the punch against lots of stuff (saurus, chaos warriors/knights, anything ASF, monsters especially stegadons and other stuff)

Don't know about pure Gobbo's so i won't say anything about them.

snottlebocket
05-09-2009, 07:49
Magic heavy was worthwhile in the previous edition. The miscasts were still bad but the warpath spell was so good, you ended up doing at least as much damage to your opponent as to yourself. In this edition the tradeof isn't worth it at all.

Deglosh
06-09-2009, 10:19
I made this unit:

26 black orcs - command; war banner @ 401 pts.

o Black Orc Warboss - heavy armour; shield; boar; Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh! @ 278

o Black Orc Big Boss - heavy armour; boar; army banner; Nogg's banner of Butchery @ 155 pts.

This makes me a unit with a static CR of: 3 ranks + banner + army banner + war banner + outnumber = 7 and a warboss in it with 8 strenght 8 attacks.... auto break anyone don't you say?

Try facing a gunline. That unit is going to get raped and you will lose 800-900 points, try winning after taht faliure.

Deglosh
06-09-2009, 10:24
Wow, to many pages to read! i wont so here are soem tips.
Field the orcs 25 and then get some night gobbos aswell.
SERIOUSLY a unit of 30 night gobbos, full command, at least 2 fanatics, adn nets is pritty damn good. I played against my dwarf-playing friend, and with the nets he rolled 3+ to hit my gobbos with is warriors, only to get pwnd by the 5+'s needed to wound thanks to nets. Then i hit back with my black orc warboss that hid in the unit after his orcs had gotten raped by two turns of his organ gun rolling 10 for hits :P (fortunatly i left the unit with the warboss before it broke, and just the turn before it did).

And dont underestimate the Ordenary Boyz charge with the strenght bonus.
Anyways the point is, YES he pwnd one whole orc unit for me, but that Gobbo unit was still strong enough to punch withstand a charge by 25 dwarven warriors, and then i hit back with warboss, broke them and overran. Just a tip. Gobbos can be pritty darn good if you give them nets. And imagine having those with a unit of boyz in the same fight... thats (for a strenght3 model) 5+ to wound the gobbos and 6's to wound the orcs, plus you gimp. his armor penetration with strenght!

Stuffburger
10-03-2010, 13:48
Sorry for the threadomancy but this seemed like the best place for it-

Has anyone given thought to using a ranked up unit of wolves? Conventional wisdom suggests these guys should only be used in clumps of 5 w/ mus, but I was thinking what the threat of a ranked up unit, preferably with a killy hero, showing up on your opponents flank on turn 2 could do?

For example:

15 Wolf riders, Spears, FC
Goblin Bigboss, Wolf, LA, Spear, Shield maybe a magic item.


At around 280 points (Don't have book with me) you get a unit fast enough to force an opponent to carefully guard a whole flank and powerful enough to break even killy units reliably on a flank charge.


What do you think? Anyone tried this in a game?

rtunian
10-03-2010, 14:58
a ranked up unit of wolves that is fast cav?
or did you mean to put shields on them too?

yes you can get into position, but w/o any rank bonus, you have 3 scr going in (outnumber, flank, banner). if you went with shields, then you could find yourself having to spend a turn reforming before you are in position, which could very well mean being out of position.

as far as collapsing the enemy line from the flank with this unit, though, i think you'd have to be pretty lucky to break a hard flank-holder, especially w/o your own rank bonus. if they have weakish units on the flanks, sure you can fold them over, and perhaps a wave of panic can seal your victory, but i think that would be a really lucky occurance

Stuffburger
10-03-2010, 16:37
I remembered whole fast cav rule after I wrote this- Not being able to be fast cav and get ranks at the same time kinda killed my whole plan.

Oh well, just looking for an excuse to field an unusual unit :(

rtunian
10-03-2010, 17:00
well a big unit of medium cav (or 2) would be good to have in an all-goblin-cav army... do you have enough cav to make such a list? of course, such a list would be quite disadvantageous, so i wonder if it's right to discuss in the "tactics" forum. although, i know at least one o&g general who uses a big block of goblin cav.

maybe warlord gazak ghazkul will pop in and advise on how he uses them? (fear the might from the goblins)

Crazy Harborc
11-03-2010, 02:00
I've used wolf riders in large numbers in light cav units. I have used them with shields and spears in large numbers. Usually, the results were a couple of laughs and wolves turning tail.

These days it would be spider riders for me. I worry about bug spray now.:shifty:

Thruster
11-03-2010, 02:20
I will be having a 3,000 pts game against WOC in next week. It'll be a friendly game with him fielding the Mammoth from Forge World. Has anyone ever go against it? Is there any tactic to bring it down? I plan to use bolt thrower and rock lobber to throw against the T7 W12!! beast.

I am also wanting to field a Wyvern in my list. Anyone ever use Azhag? Or is the normal Lord with magic items is better? I was thinking about collar of zorga to go against Mammoth but realized that it doesn't roll to hit, like Giant... dang -*-

snottlebocket
11-03-2010, 15:36
I will be having a 3,000 pts game against WOC in next week. It'll be a friendly game with him fielding the Mammoth from Forge World. Has anyone ever go against it? Is there any tactic to bring it down? I plan to use bolt thrower and rock lobber to throw against the T7 W12!! beast.

I am also wanting to field a Wyvern in my list. Anyone ever use Azhag? Or is the normal Lord with magic items is better? I was thinking about collar of zorga to go against Mammoth but realized that it doesn't roll to hit, like Giant... dang -*-

It's a huge model, that means easy to hit with catapults. If you manage to get it under the hole that's str8, d6 wounds, no armour saves. That ought to hurt a even a mammoth.

You could try a giant and hope you get the attack that allows the mammoth an iniative test or take 2d6 wounds. I can't imagine it has a very high iniative.

Normal blorc lord on wyvern is better. Give him the screaming sword and fly him towards the biggest concentration of characters. If you manage to get him 7 str 8 attacks, he'll carve up some mammoth too. (wyvern's poison attacks, while few, still help)

If you feel like being a dick, just get a massive unit of night goblins with shortbows and the spiderbanner. The mammoth is a large target, that means the entire unit can shoot. 40 - 60 poison shortbow shots are going to do a number on his fat ass. Mount the bsb with the spiderbanner on a wolf. If things get hairy he can jump ship to another unit. (especially funny if you have a second goblin archer unit on hand)

Stuffburger
11-03-2010, 21:49
I will be having a 3,000 pts game against WOC in next week. It'll be a friendly game with him fielding the Mammoth from Forge World. Has anyone ever go against it? Is there any tactic to bring it down? I plan to use bolt thrower and rock lobber to throw against the T7 W12!! beast.

I am also wanting to field a Wyvern in my list. Anyone ever use Azhag? Or is the normal Lord with magic items is better? I was thinking about collar of zorga to go against Mammoth but realized that it doesn't roll to hit, like Giant... dang -*-

Everything snottlebocket said is good. Remember that the mammoth CAN NOT MARCH and basically you should be getting 600 easy VP's. Personally I'd take 4-6 spear chukkas to wear it down and avoid it until it dies :shifty:

Statistically a spear chukka will hit on 3's, wound on 5's and do 2 wounds so (2/3)*(1/3)*(2)= 4/9 wound per turn per chukka. Six chukkas will need roughly five turns to kill the mammoth- stone throwers may work better. Assuming you hit (I don't know the base size), you'll have a (2/3) chance to do 3.5 wounds for 2 1/3 wounds per hit.

The best return on points would be the horde of NG archers- 72 with the spider banner will do the 12 wounds on average per volley.

Malorian
11-03-2010, 21:52
Remember that fast cav don't count rank bonus so you have to give them shields to make them regular cav.

Once you do that than yes they can pack a punch.


I've never used it myself but I've read it in reports and it did fine.

ShaggothLord
12-03-2010, 02:37
Hand of Gork can also crush that mammoth.

Urgat
12-03-2010, 09:16
For Thruster:

3000 points? My vote goes for the spider banner plus night gob archers. The difference with the rest is that he's not even going to expect that, as odd as it may sound (it's very efficient), it's a relatively rare trick.
Other than that, they're all unreliable to some degree, so the gobs have the advantage of being cheap and core (and, also, I suppose you bought the BfSP set and you have a lot of archers already).


Hand of Gork can also crush that mammoth.

Wrong god, it's "Mork wants ya!" :p

Mr_Foulscumm
12-03-2010, 15:19
I will be having a 3,000 pts game against WOC in next week. It'll be a friendly game with him fielding the Mammoth from Forge World. Has anyone ever go against it? Is there any tactic to bring it down? I plan to use bolt thrower and rock lobber to throw against the T7 W12!! beast.


Why are you asking for advice if its being used in a friendly game?

----

Also Im curious how Wolf Cav with spear and shields does in ranks. Id love to add a larger unit of them. Ive only used them with bows before and they dont fill the same function at all if they get shields.

Malorian
12-03-2010, 17:53
Also Im curious how Wolf Cav with spear and shields does in ranks. Id love to add a larger unit of them. Ive only used them with bows before and they dont fill the same function at all if they get shields.

They work fine.


I used to run a unit of 6 with banner and mucisian along with a wolf mounted goblin big boss with the one hit wunda. (Note that they were stil fast cav.)

You could easily get them to a flank and the opponent would have the hard choice of either showing their flank to the wolves or the orcs of the main line.

They broke a good number of units but in the end I reduced them back to the regular 5 as their role as redirecting fast cav came in more handy than a unit breaking one. (This choice was aided by the devestation one small magic missile would do to the unit.)

Thruster
13-03-2010, 00:56
@Stuffburger and Urgat: Spider banner is a great idea, thanks. :)

@ShaggothLord: Magic is a little unreliable for me.

@Mr_Foulscumm: At least I want to put up a good fight instead of either get gibbed in a few seconds or run around doing nothing the whole game.

ShaggothLord
13-03-2010, 01:10
For Thruster:

3000 points? My vote goes for the spider banner plus night gob archers. The difference with the rest is that he's not even going to expect that, as odd as it may sound (it's very efficient), it's a relatively rare trick.
Other than that, they're all unreliable to some degree, so the gobs have the advantage of being cheap and core (and, also, I suppose you bought the BfSP set and you have a lot of archers already).



Wrong god, it's "Mork wants ya!" :p

Ah of course! I was thinking of the spell description talking about a hand coming down.:shifty:

I have a 1k doubles tourney tomorrow. I'm not going to post a list or anything, but I tried a game today with my Black Orc BSB in a unit of 30 night goblins with nets. I think they worked superbly. I know this idea isn't new, but is it so much better than regular orc troops? Should I put my general in one too?

Djekar
13-03-2010, 05:42
Netters are great - they are almost Orcs. The problem is in the almost though, because they die much more easily to shooting, and the WS 2 really hurts them. Taking a big block costs nearly as much as an equally resilient block of Orc Boyz, so you aren't saving a ton of points either.

Those negatives aside, they are still good, and are doubly good because they make your character better - something that normal shield Orcs do not do. I used netters for the first time a few months ago, and I haven't looked back. I love 'em. They don't replace my blocks of 25-30 Orc Boyz as the backbone of the Waaagh! though.

I'd say try out your general and bsb in the same unit and see how that works for you, and if that turns out to be unsatisfactory, then you can look at throwing another block in.

Kaos
13-03-2010, 06:30
Also Im curious how Wolf Cav with spear and shields does in ranks. Id love to add a larger unit of them. Ive only used them with bows before and they dont fill the same function at all if they get shields.


I use a unit of 10 with shields spears and light armor, Full Command. Mostly because i allready have three fast cav in my army and i like the look of the unit and the face on my opponent when i put them on the flank. Of course against fearcausing armies they need to stay closer to the General. In their time they have managed to cause quite a few moments of glory and also disaster, as should be, goblins as they are. Allways fun to use!

Cheers-Kaos

Thruster
13-03-2010, 11:22
Guys, just finished my game, so it's time to report some results.

I used 30 night goblins with bow and spider banner to shoot at the mammoth, but after having to randomize hits.. very few did the wound. Also, the short bow range didn't help. But the giant went in after the gobbos got stompped to death and smack with club to cause an amazing 11!! wounds.

Wyvern also did very amazing against the non-shooty army. But magic was still a killer against us O&G, as gateway took my Black orc in one shot ... *cry*... not to mention a hellcannon mis-fire and caused my shaman to use our nasty mis-cast table, while he uses his normal one ...

All-in-all, it was a very fun game.

Harwammer
13-03-2010, 11:31
WoC vs Orcs is fun. though I must admit to being on the WoC side of the table more often than the orcs.

Did the WoC player take the infernal puppet? Its in my standard warrior build and I almost feel guilty when i come up against orc magic heavy with it.

Nkari
13-03-2010, 11:38
I run between 15-20 non fast cav gobbos and a goblin hero with porgostick.. works wonders with waagh(hand of gork) or animosity, first turn charges ftw! =)

With 18" charge range you can do some really neat stuff.. =) but dont think of them as cav, think of them as 20 orc boys that run really fast and you have them in a nutshell..

Anything normal orc boys can break, they break, just 2 turns earlier.. =)

Thruster
13-03-2010, 11:39
No, he took Daemon Prince with re-roll power dice. It helped him to cast the gateway that ate my Black Orc, which otherwise would have failed though.

Djekar
13-03-2010, 14:32
Anything normal orc boys can break, they break, just 2 turns earlier..

And for only double the points!

Seriously though, I think outside of the all mounted lists that you should leave these guys at home. They cost more points for roughly the same hitting power of orcs, better movement, worse leadership and worse staying power. I'll take them as fast cav and do some annoying/ redirecting and just get to those units slower, thanks.

Crazy Harborc
14-03-2010, 16:33
Random wackos (goblins) who usually do not win (a melee or battle). Yet, gobbos ARE fun to use. When that not the normal result happens and gobbos win a melee, THAT is the time I remember. The normal results...I forget about.

For me, a BIG part of wargaming is enjoyment of the games...not the winning, the crushing of an opponent's troops. THEN again, THAT "can be" fun too.:D

FORtheGREATERgood
14-03-2010, 17:08
I never regret beginning fantasy (40k convert) with a sub-1000point NG army. At smaller point levels, I was able to outnumber many of my opponents and got a surprising amount of wins out of them before my friends really focused on the night goblin weakness and their bane-low LD. They were unpredictable and just plain fun, but eventually, it got pretty frustrating playing so many games with them. One turn I can be about to combo charge his units, the next turn my army didn't want to move!
The upside was, it was usually an extremely entertaining game for both my opponent and me...what more could I ask for?
Every now and then I come back to the little green guys but couldn't bring myself to buy more (waiting for new codex...early 2011 or something like that?) since my other army is currently occupying my funds, and is a bit more consistent playwise.

Djekar
15-03-2010, 07:28
Not necessarily tactics, but I think this is a good place to ask:

How do you guys stay positive (or at the very least, not super frustrated) when you set up cunning ploys and/or sneaky tricks only to have animosity destroy the plan next turn? I'll admit to sometimes losing my composure when the unit that was supposed to redirect runs into the front of nasty deathstar of doom instead, or when it instead decides to figure out who drank all the Shroom-brew rather than move out of the way.

A perfect example was in a game against skaven, on the last turn, my BSB and his unit were staring straight at a Clanrat unit with a Bell. There was no way I could get out of the way, and to flee meant running off the board. My plan was simple - the orcs would hold and the BSB would "go get some help" for them. Of course, one 6 later and I'm in combat, beaten and run down anyways.

Any suggestions for a grumpy old Orc like me?

Any ideas?

_Ashdil_
15-03-2010, 10:43
Hullo. Orcs and goblins has allways been interesting to me. And I was sad when my friend sold them all thoose years ago. Now I know people say they are down among the worst armies. What makes them so bad? I have the book to look through, and animosity seems to be just all bad. I guess you really wants to roll 2-5, the 6 seems to be to risky. Even more so becouse if I would start I would do an all Goblin army, not night goblin, just your normal forrest goblin.

If doing such an army, what is must have units?

For specials I thought of 2 chariots, 2 spear chuckas. That leaves room for something else, either a rock lobber (with doom diver model) or aanother of the first two.

For rare a giant seems like a must have, then what is better, another giant, trolls or doom diver (if doom diver that opens for yet another 2 spear chuckas or 1 chariot.

And for characters, I love the goblin on gigantic spider. Thats why I would make such an army in the first place. So one of thoose, should he be a hero or lord on gigantic spider?
2 shamans and another big boss. Or lvl shaman and 3 big bosses?

So in short, what the best choices for Goblins? Can it work at all?

rtunian
15-03-2010, 15:47
djekar, you just have to laugh it off. leading a greenskin army is alot like trying to keep an internet discussion forum on topic. about 30% of the time, your constituents are just going to do whatever they want. imagine yourself as a cat wrangler, only replace "cat" with "greenskin"

Malorian
15-03-2010, 15:57
Hullo. Orcs and goblins has allways been interesting to me. And I was sad when my friend sold them all thoose years ago. Now I know people say they are down among the worst armies. What makes them so bad? I have the book to look through, and animosity seems to be just all bad. I guess you really wants to roll 2-5, the 6 seems to be to risky. Even more so becouse if I would start I would do an all Goblin army, not night goblin, just your normal forrest goblin.

If doing such an army, what is must have units?

For specials I thought of 2 chariots, 2 spear chuckas. That leaves room for something else, either a rock lobber (with doom diver model) or aanother of the first two.

For rare a giant seems like a must have, then what is better, another giant, trolls or doom diver (if doom diver that opens for yet another 2 spear chuckas or 1 chariot.

And for characters, I love the goblin on gigantic spider. Thats why I would make such an army in the first place. So one of thoose, should he be a hero or lord on gigantic spider?
2 shamans and another big boss. Or lvl shaman and 3 big bosses?

So in short, what the best choices for Goblins? Can it work at all?

First thing to keep in mind for orcs and goblins is that they are a horde army and should be played as such. Taking a lot of units not only gives you more tactical flexability but also helps you 'double up' so it doesn't matter if you get one back animosity roll.

For specials I personally go with 2 chariots and 4 chukkas. This helps me shoot down any flying nasties or break down elite units before combat.

For rares I go for the doom diver and the lone troll. The doom diver deals with knights in a way the chukkas can't (barring a lucky flank shot) and the lone troll is pretty much the perfect throwaway unit to set up the charges you need. However since you are going all goblins and will have a worse leadership the stupidity could get more in the way.

For characters I would seriously think about Skarsnik. Yes he's a special character and you might take some flak for it but you are also going with a heavy theme and will have serious leadership issues. Next problem will be your magic defence. With no orcs the spirit totem will be useless to you so you'll need shamans. I'd go with regular goblin shamans on wolf chariots. These will add combat punch to your army will these mobile scroll caddies are also keeping you safe. (Doing so you could turn a couple of the special slot chariots into mroe war machines.)

So in short goblins can work but you have to realize that leadership will be an issue. Dont' go crazy with fanatics or magic and just keep to the horde aspect. Know that it doesn't matter if a block of 20 night goblins (60 points) are killed to set up a game winning flank charge.

gregtuck
15-03-2010, 17:58
Playing at 1500 points only gives you one rare choice. Is taking trolls ever advised compared to taking a doom diver? I really like the trolls but they take longer to do any damage and seem riskier than the awesome no AS warmachine.

rtunian
15-03-2010, 18:26
Playing at 1500 points only gives you one rare choice. Is taking trolls ever advised compared to taking a doom diver? I really like the trolls but they take longer to do any damage and seem riskier than the awesome no AS warmachine.

it depends on what else is in your army. if your army has no redirecters at all, then yes, a troll is better than a doom diver. but if you are talking about minmax where the rest of your army is "optimised", then a doom diver will likely be better.

in the long run, it is tactically advantageous to keep your options open in list making. fielding the same list every time may see your enthusiasm for playing waning, as could playing o&g with the expectation of victory in battle. i say it's a tactical advantage, because if you don't play because you're burned out or lost interest, then you lose (and tactics, intrinsically are to prevent loss).

_Ashdil_
15-03-2010, 20:01
First thing to keep in mind for orcs and goblins is that they are a horde army and should be played as such. Taking a lot of units not only gives you more tactical flexability but also helps you 'double up' so it doesn't matter if you get one back animosity roll.

For specials I personally go with 2 chariots and 4 chukkas. This helps me shoot down any flying nasties or break down elite units before combat.

For rares I go for the doom diver and the lone troll. The doom diver deals with knights in a way the chukkas can't (barring a lucky flank shot) and the lone troll is pretty much the perfect throwaway unit to set up the charges you need. However since you are going all goblins and will have a worse leadership the stupidity could get more in the way.

For characters I would seriously think about Skarsnik. Yes he's a special character and you might take some flak for it but you are also going with a heavy theme and will have serious leadership issues. Next problem will be your magic defence. With no orcs the spirit totem will be useless to you so you'll need shamans. I'd go with regular goblin shamans on wolf chariots. These will add combat punch to your army will these mobile scroll caddies are also keeping you safe. (Doing so you could turn a couple of the special slot chariots into mroe war machines.)

So in short goblins can work but you have to realize that leadership will be an issue. Dont' go crazy with fanatics or magic and just keep to the horde aspect. Know that it doesn't matter if a block of 20 night goblins (60 points) are killed to set up a game winning flank charge.

Thanbks for the tips! I have rethought the idea of all normal goblins, not so much for using just goblin and no night goblins, but the huge price cost for 11 or so plastic sets... then for my idea of a giant, giganticspider, other char, chariots and whatnot... so I think I would make a combo force with night goblins and normal goblins, the fluff is easy to set up so it fits, and it gives me more variation to the army.
Now I just need to get my daemons done, then my green horde might start taking form.:)

Malorian
15-03-2010, 20:08
Now I just need to get my daemons done, then my green horde might start taking form.:)

Stop!!!

Play orcs&goblins first!!!

Stay away from the dark side!!!

_Ashdil_
15-03-2010, 21:00
Hehe, I'll do my best. But I have a tight budyet... a tiny one year old seems to drain me of money like I dont know what! ;)

And the daemons are halfway there. But I like to plan, and as a probable goblin player I think that is a good idea! No good to fight unless all the ladz ar wiv ya!

Crazy Harborc
15-03-2010, 23:52
When I am pushing the green skins, it's a perfect excuse to charge that hard to win against unit of whatevers!! Taking risks while pushing greenies is understood by my opponents.

Besides, on the occasions the charge works, the plan works the fact that it usually fails makes the success SOOoooo much better.:D

FORtheGREATERgood
16-03-2010, 21:21
That's one of the most fun parts of the orcs and goblins. Sure they are unpredictable for me, but they are also unpredictable for my enemy. They can't truly be sure what I'm going to charge or with which unit it's going to be (sometimes I tend to play a little reckless with them...).
On the topic of tactics:
I'm trying to get a general feel here, but as previously stated, changing up the characters and army composition is what makes them fun.
Heroes:
Black Orc Warboss
Black Orc BSB
NG Shaman - 2x Scrolls or Staff of Sneaky Stealin'
Other

Core:
Orc blocks of 20-25ish is what I've seen the most.
Night Goblins - Equipment various greatly, nets seem to be a popular choice
Wolf and Spider Riders as Fast Cav choices

Special:
Rock Lobbers
Spear Chukkas
Possibly chariots

Rare:
Giant
Pump Wagons

After reading these forums it has rekindled my desire to win with the greenskins even though I understand their unpredictable nature.
My questions are: How accurate are my main army composition choices? Is it worth building up an army now (currently only have small night goblin army which I would incorporate into the bigger army) or should I wait for the new miniatures in may or wait for the army book (beginning of next year is what I heard)?
Currently I do have another army I've been playing (Empire) so I'd be fine waiting however long if it is recommended. What you guys think?

Kaos
16-03-2010, 21:35
My questions are: How accurate are my main army composition choices? Is it worth building up an army now (currently only have small night goblin army which I would incorporate into the bigger army) or should I wait for the new miniatures in may or wait for the army book (beginning of next year is what I heard)?
Currently I do have another army I've been playing (Empire) so I'd be fine waiting however long if it is recommended. What you guys think?


I would say that you could start now with the things you know you will have anyway. Boyz, Ng, wolves and spiders, Boltthrowers, Rocklobber, Doom Diver
Chariots.. Because i dont think they will change too much and some things have and allways will be basic of a greenskin army. Blocks of Inf supported by fast stuff, hard stuff and shooty stuff. I would perhaps wait to buy lots of squiggs to see if there will be plastics. Might save you a buck or hundreds :) I will wait atleast.

Cheers-Kaos

Sambojin
16-03-2010, 22:58
There's not alot of hard and fast rules in an O+G army for gaining the win. If there was, we'd probably perform alot better in tournaments....

Here are a few rules that actually work:

1: All caddies should be goblin caddies. In chariots. With the current magic environment you just look at scrolls as a burn-fast/keep-safe option. PD are there to remove RIP spells, not to cast your own. The chariots are always useful (even for taking out opposing magic users). They even kind of come with a 6+ wardsave against cannons. Although that wardsave is the shaman on top of it :)

2: Take alot of wolf-riders and one unit of spiders. Usually 3 FC units is minimum, but 6 is about the upper limit you'll ever want. They're the jack-of-all-trades of the army.

3: Take an Orc Warboss. On a boar. They're the best thing for your army in almost every situation (and for the points).

4: Take 4x spear chukkas. They're not great, but when spread out on your battle-line, you remove alot of easy options for your enemy. They can't leave large targets about willy-nilly, and can't leave knights flanks exposed. Also takes a suprising amount of time and effort to take out 4 chukkas spread out, usually 2-3 turns or so with two fast/flying units. Let the enemy waste his time on 35-40pt distractions.

5: Anything that doesn't take animosty tests is gold. You can park shamans there, and also have at least a few reliable units in your force. This means chariots, warmachines, snotlings, pump-wagons, giants and B.Orcs. If you don't take at least a couple of these things, you WILL get stuffed around in a big way sometime during the game.

6: Totally ignore what other people say about what type of greenskin you can/can't take in an army. An Empire flagellant army doesn't ONLY take flagellants. They're just the main troops. By all means call your army a night-goblin army, even with a few wolves and chukkas in it. Strangely, we have one of the weaker books, yet the WH community gets all anal-retentive about what makes up each type of army. Sure it's not a "pure" NG army, but most Brett knight only armies still contain a damsel or two. Go figure.....

7: Really the rest is up to you. There's so many options in the book, that unless you already have a bit of a strategic plan on how you want to use your army, you'll either make a bit of a mess of it, or stumble onto a golden combo that works for you. O+G only have a few magic items that they rely on (tricksy trinket, spirit totem and D.scrolls really), the rest is all about using units in combination. Any time you charge with only one unit, be prepared to be dismayed.

You can make some pretty amazing builds with O+G, either very fast, very hitty or very shooty. I still fail to see why they fare SO poorly in the tournament scene. I think it's the attitude of the average O+G player. We have a tendancy to look down on any "over-powered" build with our book, even if it's meant to be one of the weakest books. I go for a very versatile list, that can use all the major deployment tactics in any battle, and still out-deploy most armies for the advantage from the start. I'll post it in a few hours. It's fast, a little bit hitty when used right, has numbers, has some rock-scissors-and-paper-all-in-one, but is fairly fragile. Sums up alot of O+G armies really.

See my sig. With O+G as your army you will definately.

stwess
17-03-2010, 00:04
Speaking of having fun and a few posts back an all goblin army has anyone ever tried a goblin warboss that actually hits hard? was just flicking through the book and noticed you could have a set up of something like:

G Warboss, Porko's Pig Sticker, Guzzla's Battle Brew, LA, Shield, Wolf

Stick him in a wolf rider unit with spears and flank with him, or in a wolf rider block (i know they suck as a block :p) with a champion in it to take any challenges. It's not reliable but id love to see the look on an opponents face when the runty gobbo hits him with up to 8 attacks at str 5 with hatred.

Sambojin
17-03-2010, 03:56
Not great as an actual general, but a fun second lord choice goes like this:
Goblin Warboss w/ L.armour, Chariot
Walloper's One Hit Wunder, Tricksy Trinket, Enchanted Shield, Collar of Zorga.

Run him with another two or three other chariots and watch the fear on ward-saved creatures faces. He breaks ranks, moves quick, and even has a 2+AS. Charging off an Orc Warboss's Ld, you'll normally get three chariots to impact vs fear causers. No-ward-save impact hits are the best thing since hydras. Scares the bejessus out of daemons, bretts, WE, characters in general and war altars.

Fun little game-winning rules debates arise out of the trinket ward-save removal with multiple chariot impacts. Do they get their wards vs the other impacts or not? What about the gobbo/wolf attacks directed specifically at the ward-less model? (that's if you're into that kind of thing. I'm not, but I've witnessed some beauties).

Drop the E.shield and you can field him as a big boss for smaller games. One of the few things that will regularly "pop" a war altar by itself and run down the Arch Lector on it. Just hit the altar with Wallopers and you're 5CR ahead. They're no longer warded, unbreakable, terror causing or having decent US. Reasonable odds even vs the speculum (1/3 is good odds for a gobbo). Worries greater daemons a fair bit too if you multi-chariot charge them. Whack a BSB on him too if you want to make him VP heavy.

Any other fun little warbosses out there, orcs or gobbo?

Kaos
17-03-2010, 10:43
I like the Fat Guy Setup wich is :Black orc Warboss (on foot, wyvern, boar, chariot.. your choice) With +1T armor, +1 WS S and I sword and finally the item that gives you -1 to hit him in combat. Hard to kill for most characters or monsters.

This combo works good for all the characters, even gobbos. Savage orcs gets a ward save on top of it all too.


Cheers

gregtuck
17-03-2010, 13:13
What do you guys think of a blocks of savage Orcs on foot? With an extra hand weapon (the seemingly obvious choice) they come to 10 points per model. Seems pretty expensive for a lightly armoured troops. Compared to a normal Orc boy that is 3 more points for +1 attack, 6+ ward save and the double edged frenzy.

Tauren
17-03-2010, 13:52
Are they still strength 4 on the charge? Can you buy a cheap unit of them? Do they hit hard? If the above three answers are yes, then all you need to do is play them right. They would be some of the cheapest, doubleattack, strength 4, toughness 4, having a save infantry in the game and for their points that's saying something in an army that has a nice cheap list (pts wise) to start.

willowdark
17-03-2010, 15:09
+1 attack with Choppas will add up quickly, and with a standard 5 frontage with champ you should be able to pad that static 5 nicely.

6+ ward save is crap. Trust me, my Wardancers fail it constantly to shooting.

And Frenzy has been around long enough that you should be able to work around it. Screening is easy to do, and can be tricky to counter act if you layer it, and you're ItP so no panic when your screens flee or get wipped out.

Nuada
17-03-2010, 15:16
What do you guys think of a blocks of savage Orcs on foot? With an extra hand weapon (the seemingly obvious choice) they come to 10 points per model. Seems pretty expensive for a lightly armoured troops. Compared to a normal Orc boy that is 3 more points for +1 attack, 6+ ward save and the double edged frenzy.

They're my favourite unit. I've had advice from people to use them in small blocks of around 10-12, but i personally didn't like the small units.

I take a unit of 24 savage orcs, 6 wide with a FC = 270 pnts. 15 str 4, and 4 str5 attacks. I take two of these for a 2k game, and another unit if more points.
I find that orc boyz with a shield and choppa don't kill the enemy, and nowdays there's so many str4 and str5 attacks around that a 5+ armour save (or 4+ to the front) isn't great. I can understand the cheap static combat res for T4 troops, i do use them sometimes myself.


The savage orcs are a fairly expensive unit for an Orc army, and your opponent can bait them, if you fall for it. But they won't flee until in combat, don't need to test for fear/terror, don't panic. All of those are usually a weakness of the orc army.
I like to combine them (and a few blocks of 30 orc boyz) with orcy heavy magic, so i can reroll missed hits, and get into combat asap. :D

You can usually tell how good a unit is by your opponents reaction to them. My main opponent is a dwarf player, he doesn't mind black orcs, or fanatics, or anything else in my army......... But he hates savage orcs

gregtuck
17-03-2010, 15:25
Thanks for the good advice. Looking at it again 10 points doesn't seem so bad. I have gone ahead and ordered a unit from GW.

Harwammer
17-03-2010, 15:30
@ Nuada: the small 10-12 units are only really worth it for extra choppa savage orc big unz. ITP and 3 str 5 attacks each in the first round of combat for only 140 points can be a headache for opponents but cheap enough to remain disposable.

@willowdark: I think the ward should be regarded as a gimmie/freebie. In small units it won't be reliable but in big units its an extra wound for every 6 models present... pretty nifty!

Malorian
17-03-2010, 16:19
What do you guys think of a blocks of savage Orcs on foot? With an extra hand weapon (the seemingly obvious choice) they come to 10 points per model. Seems pretty expensive for a lightly armoured troops. Compared to a normal Orc boy that is 3 more points for +1 attack, 6+ ward save and the double edged frenzy.

When I first put my orc lists together I had no plan to use savage orcs. I just couldn't stand the thought of them being baited and plus as you said they are expensive.

However after gaming for a while I found there were some units you just couldn't beat unless you killed them, and so I looked to savage orcs to fill the gap.

I played around with Avian's combat calulator and was surprised to find that spears were the best option. Sure the extra choppa did better on the charge however you can't always guarentee the charge and in later rounds of combat it's a no brainer (basically 3 attacks per model vs 4 attacks per model and you still get attacks if the front rank was removed).

I've now been using a block of 24 savage orcs with spears deployed 6 wide and with banner and musician for long time now and I don't regret it. In fact I'm thinking of working another unit in but I'm waiting for plastic savage orcs.


And as far as the ward goes, with all the high strength attacks out there I find my 6+ ward comes in more handy than the 5+/4+ in combat save of my shield orcs.

Nuada
17-03-2010, 16:45
@ Nuada: the small 10-12 units are only really worth it for extra choppa savage orc big unz. ITP and 3 str 5 attacks each in the first round of combat for only 140 points can be a headache for opponents but cheap enough to remain disposable.

Yes, that's what i tried out for a few games. But my opponent easily dealt with them every time with whatever missile unit or war machine could see them. (his favourite is to max out with organ guns)

His tactics were ... if i kill those 10 savage orcs, that's an easy 140 points, and every unit within 6" takes a panic test. Difficult to put them on an extreme flank because he's castling with his dwarfs.


When your orcs are 14 points each it's a costly death :eyebrows:
Those small units are probably better against a non-dwarf army Harwammer
Some may like it, but it's not for me. Big units all the way.



Malorian, you've convinced me about the savage spears, think i might get some. I'm also going to get some of those Brian Nelson sav orcs when they're out (some of them really do look crazy, especially the ones carrying the massive battering ram)

castlesmadeofsand
18-03-2010, 00:37
Not great as an actual general, but a fun second lord choice goes like this:
Goblin Warboss w/ L.armour, Chariot
Walloper's One Hit Wunder, Tricksy Trinket, Enchanted Shield, Collar of Zorga.

Any other fun little warbosses out there, orcs or gobbo?

well i came up with this idea, only for large battles as a second/third choice lord though!

Savage orc Warboss; l.armour, maad's map, collar of zorga, enchanted shield, then either basha's bloodaxe or shagas screamin sword

basically the idea is to get a 'super' scout right up on the enemy early on and hit them with a crap load of attacks. itp and with the collar so could target monsters/characters on monsters etc. thoughts?

ShaggothLord
18-03-2010, 00:55
I like that besides the possibility of Fast Cav leading him around all game. Not that hard since they can always outrun him.

Sambojin
18-03-2010, 03:19
In a nice, big game (say 3000-5000 pts) then castlesmadeofsand's posted lord would be awesome. Especially if you fielded him with Shagga's Screaming Sword. A BIG bunch of high strength attacks. Scouted. He might not engage, but he'll run off any unit you can charge (into wolfriders if you can), thus still being useful. Panic causing flees anyone?

With the only problem being that you'll have the best magic weapon for big games (ever, for the cost) on a warlord w/ wyvern. He's not your general, just a butcher. With the battle brew to boot.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Just a thought, aside from my head, next to the mushroom.............

There is also a big rule in O+G. We excel in EVERY not-considered-normal point games. 1-1000. Yep, we kick ****. 1001-1999 is no wucken-furries. 3k-4k-5k+? We will, we will, rock you. Boom boom, waaaggghhh, boom boom, waaaagh! It's just that the "standard" game is 2k-2250pts. We kind of HAVE to take our biggest-hitty'est stuff or the mooching/lazy (I only REALLY fear DE/DOC) books that have come out give us a whupping. And even then, we can make them come out of it slightly damaged, which is more than most armies can say............

Can't wait for 8th. Please, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!!, don't update our army book GW. You don't know what you're doing to the company favourite(sales wise). Every book you make, you make us weaker (and a little less decent in the fluff). Just do a DE style errata. Yes, our archers/warmachines CAN get flaming attacks for 5pts.

You are pretending that the "Storm of Chaos" never happened.

Job done.