PDA

View Full Version : How do I powergame PURE Gobbos in 7th ed?



Rikkjourd
16-10-2006, 16:06
Hi!
Simple as that. There is an upcoming tournament in which I will try out my new gobbos. The problem is that gobbos seem so nerfed in 7th edition that I seriously doubt their ability to win even against a moderately competative list. I am also a n00b with gobbos, which makes it even harder.

The only requirement I have is that it has to be completely free of ORCS. Not even a single orc bully for a warmachine (I got a theme going). Other that that, everything is allowed.

Any input is very welcome, I sorely need it. Thanks in advance.

Xavier
16-10-2006, 16:58
Nerfed? Your joking right? I have not fully read the new army book yet, but from a glance, goblins seem to have a nice deal, (please dont start crying about the points increase) especially night goblins. The new rules for squig herds and netters are especially nice. The few bad points I have seen from a Goblin players point of view are the fanatics, which have been toned down slightly (and rightly so)

woytek
16-10-2006, 18:08
The goblins ARE nerfed, edited. In comparison with the orcs, common goblins are now not a good choice for points anymore.

The night goblins however are still pretty nice and the fanatics, well they are not cheap and can easily be diverted so why is it so rightly?

DarkTerror
16-10-2006, 18:17
The goblins ARE nerfed, don't talk about things you don't know about. In comparison with the orcs, common goblins are now not a good choice for points anymore.

The night goblins however are still pretty nice and the fanatics, well they are not cheap and can easily be diverted so why is it so rightly?

Goblins were not nerfed, they were made 1 point more than they were. Fanatics were too good before in that they were knight killers, now they're infantry killers. It makes a lot more sense logically.

Most of the changes were relatively small. For example, getting only 4 heroes is bad, but having better magic is good.

Now, why are they nerfed? Orcs being made better does not make goblins worse. Perhaps you won't take them as much, but that doesn't matter. Hence, "nerfed" is incorrect, as they're still very portent.

policy-boy
16-10-2006, 18:23
ummm not only the points increase, but:
1.Fanatics toned down
2.wolf riders more expensive
3.no longer an extra goblin character for every 1000 points

However it must be said that night goblins now have nets which rule! the main problem now is that there is absolutely NO point to take common goblins

army list wise, if its 2000 points I'd take

Skarsnik and gobbla-he's fantastic!

Night goblin big boss with BS, morks spirit totem-the one that gives +3 dispel dice effectively-never leave home without one when doing goblins, or any OG army

2 Night goblin shamens with SOSS, and the other with whatever you want

2 units of 10 spider riders-fast cav that can move thru whatever, nuff said

2 giants for stompiness!

2 units of 25 night goblins with three fanatics and nets, spears ect, stick characters in these 2 units

2 units of 25 night goblins with no fanatics, but with nets, which are to go either side of the units with fanatics to stop fast cavalry coming up on the flanks and forcing them to release fanatics

Rikkjourd
16-10-2006, 20:20
Ooops, seems like I made an inflammable comment there, about being nerfed! =) The things I think got worse are:
1. No more 2-for-1 chariots.
2. Magic more dangerous to the caster.
3. Points increase to gobbos, since I am looking at at least 120 gobbos that is another 120pts for NOTHING that got better.
4. Fanatics less killy. (Maybe this was balancing, but it is still a downgrade even if it was needed.)
5. No more extra bosses. When my bosses are as dangerous as most other unit champions, I think at least one or two extra in 2k pts would be fair.
6. IMHO netters are worse seeing the points increase. Compare what we could get for maybe 10pts worth of netters before to what 35pts of netters does now. Regiments get very expensive quickly, and are still not dangerous.
7. Snotlings still have their uses, but come on. They were way more worth it before.

Oh man, I dont like the sound of myself now. I think I gained at least 5 levels of whining skill with this!

Anyways, I love gobbos because they are cool. That is why I started playing them. I just want to be able to in the very least score a victory every now and then!

Xavier
16-10-2006, 23:37
The goblins ARE nerfed, don't talk about things you don't know about. In comparison with the orcs, common goblins are now not a good choice for points anymore.

The night goblins however are still pretty nice and the fanatics, well they are not cheap and can easily be diverted so why is it so rightly?

Dont mistake my lack of knowledge on the Orc and goblin army book for stupidity, I know how fantasy works, I know how goblin armys work in principle, points increases are irrelevant.

Snotteef
17-10-2006, 01:41
points increases are irrelevant.

That may be THE silliest statement I have ever heard. If points increases were irrelevant to overall efficiency, then we wouldn't need a points system at all. Perhaps you meant something else?

On the other hand Woytek's statement was quite harsh. Surely we can all be more civil.

Xavier
17-10-2006, 08:26
What I meant by that was, the increase in goblins is not a reason to say they are nerfedm, if anything it brings them more inline with what they should be compared to other units, not that I want to go down the road of arguing pointscompared with other armys.

So what if they have increased by 1 point? just because they are no longer an army in which you can take everything you could possibly want AND still flood the deployment zone with goblins, does not mean they are nerfed, now you simply have a choice of what cool things to drop so you can get those extra 120 points for your 120 goblins.

Changes happen, deal with it. Simple. Constantly crying about it does nothing, just because a few people bitch about a point increase wont make the developers change their minds.

woytek
17-10-2006, 08:54
Well sorry for my harsh post but saying goblins aren't made weaker is just a stupid statement seen the list of changes. Do you know what you are saying? Goblins of 2 points going up by 1 point is like making black orcs cost 20 points...a 50% increase in points is alot imo.. Also some people didn't like the standard equipment of handweapon and light armour instead of handweapon and shield.

Look at the posts of policy-boy and rikkjourd, it's not just the points increase you are seeing ,it's the whole picture. And in the whole picture, goblins are nerfed even more!

DeathlessDraich
17-10-2006, 09:35
The effective Goblin horde armies I've seen were very good in magic and had cheap infantry blocks. Increasing the point value of Goblins, changes this by a massive 33%.

However, the most troublesome units were big blocks of 20 or so Wolf Riders, cavalry with +3 rank bonus and always outnumbering their enemy. This has not changed that much.
I think the addition of Spider riders adds another dimension to Goblin Horde armies which is partial compensation for the increase in points. The other bonuses (I'm not entirely sure of this) are Squig hoppers seem better and the Giant Cave Squig mount for a Night Goblin hero.

Rikkjourd
17-10-2006, 11:55
Spider riders are a given in my armies. The ability to move 14" through any obstacle or woods is a huge boost to mobility and hunting harassment units.

Squig hoppers are probably a good unit on average. The problem with them is their random movement that makes them a pain to use effectively. It is very likely that they fall short of their target and get charged in turn, and they are only T3 no save. No static combat res either. Their movement decides what they can achieve, not your own tactics.

Giant Cave Squig also has random movement, no save, and cannot join units. They could be fun to bounce around in a friendly game, but in a more competetive list I only see it as squig hoppers taking a hero slot instead of a special slot. I did however already convert one of these: they are simply too hilarious to not have one in those friendly one-off battles! =)

The decisions I am wondering about right now are:
1. Only shamans or include a BSB.
2. Rare slots: 1 Giant + a few trolls or 2 units of a few trolls each?
3. Special: How many warmachines or offensive units, given that I want to both be able to advance across the table and go defensive, depending on what army I face.
4. How many fanatics? Is it better to spread out and have a few each, or concentrate them to a few "killer-units"?

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-10-2006, 12:58
However it must be said that night goblins now have nets which rule! the main problem now is that there is absolutely NO point to take common goblins

4+ save, better LD. Those are two good reasons in my eyes.

The Goblin army is still very viable, and the 1pt increase was needed, as Goblins were too cheap previously. Really, its not the end of the world...

Scythe
17-10-2006, 13:05
4+ save, better LD. Those are two good reasons in my eyes.


For 4 pts? You are better of buying an Orc.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-10-2006, 14:11
For 4 pts? You are better of buying an Orc.

But we are talking pure Goblin armies...

And having speed bump units that don't panic your Orc boyz is quite useful...

woytek
17-10-2006, 16:13
You are talking pure gobbo's, but considering the orc cost, goblins aren't that good like you're saying.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-10-2006, 17:54
That doesn't mean Goblins were nerfed, it means Orcs were made better (too good, imo).

I am talking pure Gobbos because that is the topic of this thread...

The point still stands that Goblins have a use in that they will not panic Orcs, and having a 4+ save speed bump at 4pts a model that will not panic your main force is nothing to cry nerf about.

Snotteef
17-10-2006, 18:19
Constantly crying about it does nothing, just because a few people bitch about a point increase wont make the developers change their minds.


I dunno about that. Remember the Dark Elf update?

Still, I agree that it is not likely to change, nor do I think it is the end of the world. The real hurt is on the spear and shield gobbos I have put together. That configuration is just terrible. Eh. That is how the cookie crumbles.:rolleyes:

GAWD
17-10-2006, 18:19
Okay ... those that contend gobbo generals should stop bellyaching: the basic trooper just took a 50% hike in points. If you don't understand how this could potentially be crippling I've to a bridge to sell you. Besides, this is a gobbo tactics thread, let's try to stay on topic for at least the first few pages. :rolleyes:

On topic:
The foundations of my 6th ed United Goblin Liberation Army, under the command of the irrepressible Red Marx (gonna be Red Grot for 7th), worked for two reasons, which haven't really changed.

Leadership: Gobbo armies under 3000pts MUST bring a Warboss now ... no question about it. Some were able to get away w/pouring a bunch of points into magic and flooding the field w/the cheapest gobbos possible but no more. Basic goblins aren't cheap enough to withstand the inevitable lost units due to psychological issues, so leadership for gobbos will be at an even bigger premium. Fewer goblins on the field means that you absolutely must mitigate psychological factors of the gobbos on the table as much as possible. BSB's are important for the same reasons. Unfortunately, they changed the rules on the Red Banner, but it's still pretty good. Magic should be a complement now, not a game winner.

Numbers: Gobbo armies should avoid the pitfalls & temptations of taking expensive units (great shamen and giants come to mind), b/c we NEED to secure the numerical advantage EVERY game to have chance at success. I think individual gobbo units should get smaller so that the tactical advantages of having more units than the enemy can still be used. In other words, Gobbo's numbers should be represented by the number of decent units they can field not the number of individual models ... kinda like getting numerical superiority via MSU.

Here's a preliminary list I posted a while back:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52293

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
17-10-2006, 18:40
I agree with GAWD, but personnaly I think that the only good goblin armies are wolfrider armies for this edition. But I haven't tried out the new goblins so I still need to test it out.

Greetz
G

DeathlessDraich
17-10-2006, 18:46
The decisions I am wondering about right now are:
1. Only shamans or include a BSB.
2. Rare slots: 1 Giant + a few trolls or 2 units of a few trolls each? I think you could include Ironguts or similar as Dogs of War but I'm not sure.
3. Special: How many warmachines or offensive units, given that I want to both be able to advance across the table and go defensive, depending on what army I face.
4. How many fanatics? Is it better to spread out and have a few each, or concentrate them to a few "killer-units"?

1) Depends on whether you want to accept risky magic-shamans only or a safer alternative - BSB.
2) Definitely include a Giant. Your Ld is not high enough to risk 2 troll units.
3) Spear Chukkas are a cheap risk free option - at least 2. Other warmachines - I see them as just fun or funny!
4) I'm not a fanatic fan but the norm is to use 2 only either both in the same unit or one in each night goblin unit usually deployed in the flank. I don't see them as 'killer units' more of a kill and be killed models.

Xavier
17-10-2006, 22:02
I dunno about that. Remember the Dark Elf update?


Gav did not do the Orc and Goblin army book did he?

I doubt any other games designer will cave to players crying.

Scythe
18-10-2006, 06:25
That doesn't mean Goblins were nerfed, it means Orcs were made better (too good, imo).


No mather how you turn it, gobbos became worse. Common gobbos with light armour and shield gone up in cost 33%.

The overall increase in points make all gobbo armies a lot harder to play. Plus the free bosses gone means that you will have a harder job to keep them in line. Be sure to spend points in war machines, chariots, fast cavalry etc. You will need them now more than ever. Spear Chukkas are still a great buy for example, so you should have quite a few of them.

Rikkjourd
18-10-2006, 09:23
I am thinking something like this now:

Warboss
BSB
Shaman
Shaman

Giant
Trolls
4 Spear chukkas
1 Rock lobba
1 chariot

Some snotlings
4x6 Spider Riders
About 6x30 gobbos with some nets, fanatics, command etc spread out

Frankly
18-10-2006, 10:23
I know how goblin armys work in principle

But, now they're going to play differently in 7th.

More costly in ALOT of area's with nothing given back for the price increases, rightly or wrongly they've been given a down graded to a supporting unit status.

No extra hero's, magic debuff, nerfed Leadership banner are all going to have a big difference to armylists.

In saying all that, they STILL look like and solid armylist, still alot of options to make a great tournament list out of.

DeathlessDraich
18-10-2006, 13:43
I am thinking something like this now:

Warboss
BSB
Shaman
Shaman

Giant
Trolls
4 Spear chukkas
1 Rock lobba
1 chariot

Some snotlings
4x6 Spider Riders
About 6x30 gobbos with some nets, fanatics, command etc spread out

Snotlings are no longer Unbreakable, merely Stubborn. I don't think they are worth having.
Wolf riders are faster than Spider riders and are more efficient in a flank manouevre - maybe 1 unit and maybe another chariot? Other than that, the list looks good.

Rikkjourd
18-10-2006, 14:00
Yeah, I know Snotlings got downgraded alot. The idea is to have 40pt diverters or table quarter holders. They have the benefits of being a small regiment that is easily hidden and also 20pt cheaper than the cheapest goblin regiment. Hmmm... Maybe not worth it. If I get short on points they are gone. I got some nice conversions planned for them though =)

I also got a truckload of spider guys already. I know from experience that alot of the tables at the tournaments here are terrain-heavy. I think that on average the spider rider ability to move through terrain will gain me more movement than the extra 2(4)" that wolves has. It is alot easier to utilize the terrain to my advantage if I can manouver in it while my opponent struggles.

I feel like a coward, but I am thinking that adding in a few orcs will do this list a huge favour. I have a bunch of spare orcs that I can make bosses and bullies and stuff from. The biggest improvement would be an orc warboss! Talk about reliability boost!

Snotteef
18-10-2006, 17:50
feel like a coward, but I am thinking that adding in a few orcs will do this list a huge favour.


The new Orcs are just too good to ignore. I'll be taking a few units (I was a gobbo player).

GrogsnotPowwabomba
18-10-2006, 21:08
No mather how you turn it, gobbos became worse. Common gobbos with light armour and shield gone up in cost 33%.

I would contend that they were too good for their cost before, so I still don't see the reason so many are dismayed over it...

Scythe
19-10-2006, 06:35
Look at it this way: I have seen gobbo armies of 400-600 models in 2500 pts games. Now, would you be happy if your standard army became 400-600 pts more expensive?

But we are getting a bit of topic...

Frankly
19-10-2006, 06:39
I would contend that they were too good for their cost before, so I still don't see the reason so many are dismayed over it...

Thats only part of the nerfing, if that was all the bad stuff that happened in 7th for gobbo's then that would be fine, but its not.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
19-10-2006, 14:27
Look at it this way: I have seen gobbo armies of 400-600 models in 2500 pts games. Now, would you be happy if your standard army became 400-600 pts more expensive?

I probably wouldn't be happy, but considering that, like I said, Goblins were undercosted previously and being a fair and rational gamer, I would accept the change. Now Goblin players need to actually think about what they want, instead of taking everything they want and then some...

Scythe
19-10-2006, 14:34
Alright, but then, even considering they were undercosted previously, they are underpowered (compared to Orcs) now. It is not just the cost (night goblins are ok, common goblins got quite the blow), but also the hero slots (apart from theme, there is not much reason anymore to take a gobbo hero instead of an Orc, is there?). Balancing is fine, but I think they went a bit too far with the goblins (tough the effect is even stronger due Orcs getting so many advantages suddenly).

Brother Edwin
19-10-2006, 14:40
Check out my list in the army list section.

EDIT:Here it is.


Skarsnik is amazing, magic is more risky so I dont rely on it or invest to much points in it. The infantry is now decent for there points rather than amazing, and bolt throwers and giants are just as good.

Skarsnik.
205

Night goblin, level 2, nibblers itty ring.
105

Night goblin, level 2, dispel scroll.
110

Night goblin, level 2, dispel scroll.
110

26 night goblins, standard, musician, fanatic.
115

25 night goblins, standard, musician, fanatic.
112

25 night goblins, standard, musician, fanatic.
112

25 night goblins, standard, musician.
87

25 night goblins, standard, musician.
87

5 spider riders.
65

5 spider riders.
65

5 spider riders.
65

5 spider riders, musician.
71

Bolt thrower.
35

Bolt thrower.
35

Bolt thrower.
35

Bolt thrower.
35

Bolt thrower.
35

Bolt thrower.
35

Bolt thrower.
35

Bolt thrower.
35

Giant.
205

Giant.
205

1,999
________

andy10k
19-10-2006, 15:31
Pure Pwnage list Edward! ^^

I see your 8 bolt throwers and raise you 1 slann...for the half term awaits you!

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
19-10-2006, 16:18
Look at it this way: I have seen gobbo armies of 400-600 models in 2500 pts games. Now, would you be happy if your standard army became 400-600 pts more expensive?

But we are getting a bit of topic...


Heh I'm one off those crazy lunatic's with around 400 models in 2500pts:D, well I don't like it that I can't use that army any longer. I think we all agree that a goblin army was not a powerhouse or belonged to the cheesy armies, so i don't know why they have changed them.

Many gamers have now a lot of useless goblins.

Greetz
G

Brother Edwin
19-10-2006, 16:20
Defenatly, however how I am going to face you is another matter.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
19-10-2006, 16:32
Losing the hero slot was the only thing that I can see Goblin players legitamitely complaining about. That is a blow I will concede.

The increased cost, however, is just putting them more in line with their abilities. You have to understand that cheap Goblins were not too cheap in Goblin-only armies, but with combined Orc/Goblin armies, they were too good for their cost. Since I think the army is generally played as a combined force army, they are priced this way. I wouldn't have a problem with Goblins being cheaper in an army that did not include Orcs, but that would be a big pain in the ass for GW to facillitate, so I am fine with the newer cost.

On the other side of the coin, I think Squig Hoppers have improved drastically, and Spider Riders are a good addition to the army, so again, I don't think the increased cost is as bad as people make it out to be.

Brother Edwin
19-10-2006, 17:19
Heh I'm one off those crazy lunatic's with around 400 models in 2500pts:D, well I don't like it that I can't use that army any longer. I think we all agree that a goblin army was not a powerhouse or belonged to the cheesy armies, so i don't know why they have changed them.

Many gamers have now a lot of useless goblins.

Greetz
G

It defenatly was. 4 wizzards, BSB, general, fanatics, super cheap bolt throwers/chariots, wolf riders and pump wagons/giants.

Scythe
20-10-2006, 06:21
If you took such army, not many goblins would have been left, even when they were only 2 points.

And tell me, how many pure goblin armies have you seen around (eg, more than 200 goblins?). Most people don't even bother. I am afraid to say that a rare but fun army variant (pure goblins) only became more rarer.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 11:26
I really think anyone who was dedicated to playing a huge Goblin force will do so regardless of the rules changes, because, as you have said, it never was a powerful army and it really is an army for someone who loves the thought of it more than the power of it.

All the Goblin players I know are still using their Goblin armies and doing about as well as they did before...

Scythe
20-10-2006, 11:46
Of course, die hard players will just continue to field their armies. I wouldn't drop my armies either if they got worse. But if some rules get downgraded, I doubt it will attract many new players to the army. But then, I might be underestimating the effect of skull pass.

woytek
20-10-2006, 11:54
Losing the hero slot was the only thing that I can see Goblin players legitamitely complaining about. That is a blow I will concede.

The increased cost, however, is just putting them more in line with their abilities. You have to understand that cheap Goblins were not too cheap in Goblin-only armies, but with combined Orc/Goblin armies, they were too good for their cost. Since I think the army is generally played as a combined force army, they are priced this way. I wouldn't have a problem with Goblins being cheaper in an army that did not include Orcs, but that would be a big pain in the ass for GW to facillitate, so I am fine with the newer cost.

On the other side of the coin, I think Squig Hoppers have improved drastically, and Spider Riders are a good addition to the army, so again, I don't think the increased cost is as bad as people make it out to be.

You are pretty much contradicting yourself saying they're too good for their points first, and then in the other quote saying they weren't a very powerful army...

You say they were underpriced in an O&G army (so they're good priced now) and they were priced well if it was only goblins. Well what GW did was making the orcs better, so that means the point cost for goblins is already dealt with. Further increasing the actual point cost is imo a bit too much.


I really think anyone who was dedicated to playing a huge Goblin force will do so regardless of the rules changes, because, as you have said, it never was a powerful army and it really is an army for someone who loves the thought of it more than the power of it.

If they weren't a powerful army, why saying they were rightfully nerfed then?

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 12:09
You are pretty much contradicting yourself saying they're too good for their points first, and then in the other quote saying they weren't a very powerful army...

No, because if you read clearly you would see that I said they were too good for their points in COMBINED ORC AND GOBLIN ARMIES. In Goblin-only armies, they were ok.


You say they were underpriced in an O&G army (so they're good priced now) and they were priced well if it was only goblins. Well what GW did was making the orcs better, so that means the point cost for goblins is already dealt with. Further increasing the actual point cost is imo a bit too much.

Making Orcs better does not address Goblins being undercosted at all. You are looking insularly at only the armylist itself, but from the point of view of an opponent, making Orcs better does nothing to mitigate undercosted Goblins. It just makes the Orcs that go along with them better... :rolleyes:


If they weren't a powerful army, why saying they were rightfully nerfed then?

See what I said above. You need to read what I wrote more clearly...

woytek
20-10-2006, 13:17
No, because if you read clearly you would see that I said they were too good for their points in COMBINED ORC AND GOBLIN ARMIES. In Goblin-only armies, they were ok.

Making Orcs better does not address Goblins being undercosted at all. You are looking insularly at only the armylist itself, but from the point of view of an opponent, making Orcs better does nothing to mitigate undercosted Goblins. It just makes the Orcs that go along with them better... :rolleyes:

See what I said above. You need to read what I wrote more clearly...

Please stop trying to tell me I need to read better because I am reading your posts, and I understand them. I indeed mentioned that you said they were at a right points cost in all goblin armies, and gave a response on that, please read my posts better.

Orcs were underpowered for their price and goblins were, in comparison with orcs, a bit good. Now with orcs being better, goblins would actualy have a nice price. Maybe if they got to keep the bonusses goblins had, the raise in points was not too bad, but now it is.

I don't play all goblins but since that type of army wasn't overpowered, why did they try to nerf them that bad? Orcs got better and the army would be in perfect balance with orcs now and goblins of last edition.

You are indeed saying that all goblins weren't overpowered, and since the old orcs were not good, an O&G army would have never been really overpowered. The orcs were unpowered and got their rightful boost. With orcs boosted they changed some special rules also that usually benefit orcs more. Indeed O&G is more powerful, but with goblins not being changed ruleswise and them not being overpowered compared to orcs and other races, there was no need for a nerf.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 13:47
Please stop trying to tell me I need to read better because I am reading your posts, and I understand them. I indeed mentioned that you said they were at a right points cost in all goblin armies, and gave a response on that, please read my posts better.

I've read your posts, and I can see that you are still not understanding what I am writing. What I am saying is that Goblins, when combined with Orcs in an army, were too cheap for what they could do (ie provide a cheap, sacraficial troop with a 4+ save that also would not panic the Orc troops they were shielding). It was simply too good for 3 points each. In an all Goblin army this was not the case, because the Goblins would panic other Goblins. You are looking at the army only within itself and not within the context of a game against another opponent. It is not about the usefulness of Orcs vs. Goblins, it is about how they work together and the appropriate costs for that. 4+ save troops that don't cause panic for 3pts is simply too cheap.


Orcs were underpowered for their price and goblins were, in comparison with orcs, a bit good. Now with orcs being better, goblins would actualy have a nice price. Maybe if they got to keep the bonusses goblins had, the raise in points was not too bad, but now it is.

I never said Orcs were underpowered for their price in 6th Edition. I really don't understand why they got a boost. I don't mind it, but I don't understand it. They should have gone up in cost for the new Choppa rules. And again, you still are failing to understand that improved Orcs does nothing to mitigate undercosted Goblins. When comparing them to each other in an isolated universe it does, but not when you look at it from the opposing army's viewpoint. In this case, improved Orcs with Goblins at the same price just means the Orcs are better and the undercosted Goblins are just as undercosted as before. How the hell does that solve anything?


I don't play all goblins but since that type of army wasn't overpowered, why did they try to nerf them that bad? Orcs got better and the army would be in perfect balance with orcs now and goblins of last edition.

You are indeed saying that all goblins weren't overpowered, and since the old orcs were not good, an O&G army would have never been really overpowered. The orcs were unpowered and got their rightful boost. With orcs boosted they changed some special rules also that usually benefit orcs more. Indeed O&G is more powerful, but with goblins not being changed ruleswise and them not being overpowered compared to orcs and other races, there was no need for a nerf.

Again, like I said before, Goblins went up in price because of their context within the entire Orc and Goblin army. GW was not trying to "nerf them that bad", they just needed to up their cost because they were too cheap in Orc and Goblin armies. Barring having completely different prices for Goblins without Orcs in the army (which would be very confusing and complicated for many players), they upped their cost. And rightfully so.

woytek
20-10-2006, 17:13
Ok appearantly we totally don't agree with eachother, so let's end the discussion since it will never turn out to be something nice.

Gobbo's could deal with a slight nerf, but on a 3 pts. model, 1 point is a third of the cost. This makes a huge impact and isn't just 'a one point increase'. It's like making orc boyz go up with 2/3 points.

Orcs were not that great in 6th, and they do deserve the boost. The new rules are very orcy and it was just plain stupid the strenght bonus wouldn't be applied with two choppa's. They are very nice now and that is what I wanted to say. Because orcs are now very tempting to take, goblins are actually not that underpriced. People see a bigger difference in stats and rules so they are more tempted to take orcs then goblins. I do see the army from an opponents point of view, but goblins don't look like they're too good to me. The fact that people rather took all goblin armies to win instead of orc armies helped by goblins says alot in my eyes. Why wouldn't they take orcs with goblins as you're saying that's the case where goblins were overpowered?

For my final part: Goblins could deal with a nerf, but not one like this where they got a massive point increase and get totally duped with the special rules. They lose the extra boss, chariot and the whole sum of it is just too much.

No more post from my side i promise.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
20-10-2006, 18:46
Should GW have increased Goblin cost by 1/2 a point? You are basically implying that the % increase was too much, yet since they are so cheap to begin with, it is impossible not to increase their cost by a smaller margin.

You are still saying that improved Orcs make Goblins less attractive and their points cost more fair, but this was never the point of why I said Goblins needed a point increase. I'll say one more time that making Goblins less attractive to Orcs does nothing to mitigate the fact that they are underpriced in the overall scheme of things. The Goblins are still too cheap, and the Orc player still gets the benefit of this.

I'll give you a more extreme example of my point. If Chaos Warriors were 1pt, and everyone took lots of Chaos Warriors over, say, Chaos Knights that are like 20pts each, you do not solve the problem of the 1pt Chaos Warriors by improving the Chaos Knights so that they are more attractive to the Chaos player. You up the cost of the 1pt Chaos Warriors so that they are not so underpriced for what they do. This is an extreme example, and the Goblin price was obviously not this bad, but the example is just to illustrate my argument. I hope this makes sense, whether you agree or disagree I don't care I just want to know that you are understanding my argument, because thus far you haven't seemed to. Either way, like you, I promise no more comments.

As I think about it more, I think that maybe Orc Boyz should have increased in points and Goblins should have stayed the same. I mean, Orcs were the ones that got the boost so it seems to make more sense to me.

Frankly
20-10-2006, 22:32
This is classic GW(and I'm being honest here not just ranting), another armybook with changes that just don't make alot of sense in the overall veiw of things.

Yes gobbo's did need a price raise, BUT nerfing them across the board on chariots, magic, hero's, their magic banner and nets, just stinks of a company that a)haven't game tested full gobbo armylsts for any length of time and didn't want to so nerfed any seeable problems, b) are rigging up ork units to be the complete no brainer choice at the exspense of gobbo units and gobbo armylists.

Now none of this would bother me if GW and a program in place to errata casual mistakes in their armybooks, if they could accept change(a good example of a game that does this is Legends of the Five Rings), but they can't and they won't. They'll turn a blind eye to this debate, they won't return to the armybook in a years or two and say"well this isn't working". they just can't do that as a company, which is sad the the hobby.

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2006, 09:09
This is probably an unfounded rumour but I've been told that this is the first step in separating Goblins from Orcs with a view to producing a separate army book for Goblins!

woytek
21-10-2006, 09:31
I don't think that will happen, since this edition is was their goal to make the O&G armies more varied..

wingedserpant
21-10-2006, 10:26
This is probably an unfounded rumour but I've been told that this is the first step in separating Goblins from Orcs with a view to producing a separate army book for Goblins!

Thats a nice little fact that you made up. There is no chance that they'll split. That just the biggest peice of rubbish that I've ever heard.

Buttmunky
21-10-2006, 12:21
so what happens to those of us who have already bought a heap of goblins hoping for a fair game. I mean from all the posts it looks pretty clear that ive made a poor choice in first army.

i still really like the look of pure goblin armies but i dont want to focus on a single unit, i.e. 8 spear chukkas, just to win a game.

from the sound of it Games workshop really intended for this army book to be used with Orcs, Orcs combined with goblins, but not goblins on thier own.

But thats enough on my part. only one thing to do... complete my half-bought army and only use it for friendly games, then look for a better themed army to do run.

But IMO Night Goblins look ******* COOL.

wingedserpant
21-10-2006, 12:25
With night goblins going up in points you may have have missed the fact that trolls are down. And since trolls are a good goblin support unit, you can use the spare points saved from them on your goblins. Just as long as you don't upgrade them. I'm doing an all night goblin army and all I can say is it needs some skill to win with.

Buttmunky
21-10-2006, 12:47
Thanks.

i over looked this. i'm really having a hard time finding a good tactic for a pure night gobbo list. Though reading this thread doesnt paint a pretty picture.

could you post some advice on my army list, Night Goblin themed army.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
22-10-2006, 13:51
It defenatly was. 4 wizzards, BSB, general, fanatics, super cheap bolt throwers/chariots, wolf riders and pump wagons/giants.


My army? No certainly not. My standard army had a Warboss, BSB, 2 mounted big bosses and 2 lv2 shamans, 2 chukka's, 3 fanatic's and 3 chariots, 2 blocks of 15 wolves, 2 units of 5 wolves, a unit of 35 ard grotz, a unit of 40 ard grotz, a unit of 40 night goblins, a unit of 35 Night goblins with spears, 3 units from 20 Night goblins

So where is the cheese in that, it was a balanced fun list that won many battles.

Greetz
G

Akuma
22-10-2006, 17:00
You dont 7ed isnt about PG - Orcs are the way to go if you want to be competative ... this is ORCS and goblins army - not the other way around ...

Sureshot05
22-10-2006, 17:12
I recently fought with a pure Night Goblin lists and have been tinkering with the list to make it very competitive.

Firstly, fanatics, they are not worse or better. The new shooting rules means that having lots of fanatics can prove to be a game winner. Especially combined with the immunity to panic when in close combat (which is the majority of the time the fanatic will fly back into your troops).

Archers are not great, but they are fun.

Shaman's. Take a lot of these. Their spells can help thin enermy troops and more importantly can assasinate enemy generals (a vital use!)

Squigs are very effective and the nets are worth it on large Night Goblin units (and I mean 40+).

If you take a Goblin general and mount him on a giant spider, he can lead a unit of trolls quite well and it gives you a unit with some real strength. I've only tried this out once so far and it seems to work okay.

Thats my two cents and I hope it helps.

GAWD
23-10-2006, 00:29
You dont 7ed isnt about PG - Orcs are the way to go if you want to be competative ... this is ORCS and goblins army - not the other way around ...

That's a cute sentiment until you realize that the most far flung waagghh ever was a GOBLIN waagghh, and Skarsnik's night GOBLIN army is easily one of the most formidable in the current situation. GOBLIN armies are in the fluff (and quite powerful at that). So, you should be able to reflect the effectiveness of a GOBLIN army on the tabletop ... at least that's the pretension.

Akuma
23-10-2006, 06:14
no thats a sad speech from kids who lost their all powerfull 8 chariots tons of magic and galore of fanatics army - well what will you do now ? Learn to play ? Oh i dont think so - sell of and buy Brets :D

And as for goblins - thay arent wagggha at all - 1 thay are much worse at the new move rule and second thair shamans cant even use this spell - this means thay are sneeky and cunning not brute like orcs ... And as for whagha as a force name - Groom the pouch was an orc or a goblin ?

Rikkjourd
23-10-2006, 06:46
no thats a sad speech from kids who lost their all powerfull 8 chariots tons of magic and galore of fanatics army - well what will you do now ? Learn to play ? Oh i dont think so - sell of and buy Brets :D

And as for goblins - thay arent wagggha at all - 1 thay are much worse at the new move rule and second thair shamans cant even use this spell - this means thay are sneeky and cunning not brute like orcs ... And as for whagha as a force name - Groom the pouch was an orc or a goblin ?

The first statement is just rude. And just for the record: How many "kids" do you think have pure gobbo armies compared to just about any other army?

The second part of your post I cannot really understand. Please elaborate. And yes, Grom the Paunch was a goblin.

Scythe
23-10-2006, 07:04
no thats a sad speech from kids who lost their all powerfull 8 chariots tons of magic and galore of fanatics army - well what will you do now ? Learn to play ? Oh i dont think so - sell of and buy Brets :D

:rolleyes:

Sounds like someone suffers from minority complexes after his army was beat by goblins.


And as for goblins - thay arent wagggha at all - 1 thay are much worse at the new move rule and second thair shamans cant even use this spell - this means thay are sneeky and cunning not brute like orcs ... And as for whagha as a force name - Groom the pouch was an orc or a goblin ?

Erhm, what?

Tutore
23-10-2006, 12:14
I just read the whole new armybook and figured out a possible strange waagh! with pure goblins. i don´t know if it´s effective: 4 units of 40 goblins, each guided by a goblin hero (one of them a 65 points one). 8 bolt throwers, 2 catapults (the rare choices). 2 units of 8 spider riders and 2 of wolf riders to protect the flanks (a little bit). Remaining points...archers perhaps? or change heroes for shamans? I don´t know if it´s effective, but it´s surely a strange composition. The 40 goblin units shouldn´t panic, because you need to kill 11 of them with arrows/magic to allow a panic test...whatever. I just read the book.

Dranthar
25-10-2006, 08:49
I was hoping to read a discussion about how to make a competitive all goblin army but what I get is 7 pages of ranting about how they got nerfed. :eyebrows:

Can we get this back on topic people? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I thought I'd start with a general rundown of what the "best" (ie. most competitive from a purely powergaming perspective) choices are from each category. Agree or disagree I don't care, but please, lets discuss this.

Heros:
Goblin Bosses > Night Goblin Bosses
The night goblins may be cheaper, but I think we can all agree that decent Ld is needed for an all-goblin army.
The choice of mounts also tends to put the common goblins out in front, since squig hoppers are generally more of a suicide unit - good if you want that sort of thing, but otherwise stick with the commons.

Night Goblin Shamans > Goblin Shamans
You don't need the extra Ld on a shaman so why bother paying more points for it? If yiou want to mount your shaman then once again common goblin shamans are the way to go, otherwise I'd stick with thenight goblin shamans.

Core
Spider Riders >= Wolf Riders
Personally I think they both have their uses, but IMO the spider riders just edge out on the virtue of their wall crawling ability, which enables them to threaten flanks much more easilly.
The massive movement of wolf riders is still great though, so I think a mix of the two units would be best.

Night Goblins > Common Goblins
Do we really need to discuss this? Nite Gobbos get more useful options, are much better at 3 pts than the common variety and the lower Ld, while a potential issue, can be mitigated with your general.

Snotlings = good!
Cheap charge redirectors that won't panic your goblins. What's not to like? I'd say units of two bases are all you need.

Special

Wolf Chariots = bad
I only say this because you can instead get them without taking up a special slot by using a hero. Given the great special choices we have here I'd say that these slots are better used on something else.

Spear Chukka > Rock Lobba
Spear chukkas are very cheap and often only need to hit a unit of knights once to make back their points. Rock lobbas, as nice as they are when they hit, are quite unreliable, so I'd say that the spear chukka wins out when you're picking artillery.

Squig Hoppers and Squig Herds = ok?
To be honest I'm undecided on these units. I'm going to need to try them out a little more (esp. the squig herds) before deciding exactly how best to use them. Discussion on these would be great.
They should be great against undead infantry though...

Rare
I'm gonna let someone else to this since my experience with these units so far is limited. Right now though I'm leaning towards massed snotling pump wagons and I do not like trolls at all in a low Ld goblin army. Giants are alright but I'm undecided on them.

Rikkjourd
25-10-2006, 10:15
@Dranthar: That is a nice rundown! As you left the rare choices out, Im going to say that a giant is a good choice. While 4 snotling pump wagons might be useful, they still are very random, and fragile. They only move 7" on average, which puts them behind even your basic footslogger. Giants are expensive, but they are very reliable compared to most other units. They won't panic, ignore fear n' stuff. They also get stubborn at LD10. In an army where everything has a tendency to run off at the slightest trouble, this guy can be a great help.

I tried trolls once in an army led by a Night Goblin (I know that sucks, from now on it is a common boss). They passed stupidity the first turn, then they failed 4 times in a row, since the boss was getting out of range by turn 3 and onwards. All they did all game was stumble forward at a rediculous pace and then get charged in the flank and run down. If I had passed stupidity at least once more, they would have been useful...

Sureshot05
25-10-2006, 10:35
Good run down, thought I'd add my opinions on the new list:

Heros:
Goblin Bosses > Night Goblin Bosses
For your general and battlestandard I agree, but if you take the squig hopper, the goblin only time (which name I forget) and bounce this guy forwards, you have a great potential assassin.


Night Goblin Shamans > Goblin Shamans
Competely agree, especially with the magic mushrooms for 10 pts.

Core
Spider Riders = Wolf Riders
Both are equally valid imho, unless their is a river on the board, in which the spiders become lethal.

Night Goblins > Common Goblins
Nuff said.

Snotlings = good!
Not so sure, at 20 pts a base, and being able to get 6 gobbo's for that, it makes me think very carefully about these.


Wolf Chariots = poor
Not really keen on these myself, especially when they take up special slots.

Spear Chukka + Rock Lobba
I like both, Rock lobba's can be very effective when aimed at static armies, but Spear chucka's are a great investment.

Squig Hoppers and Squig Herds = ok?
Squg hoppers are becoming my other flanking unit. Sure, there a bit unreliable, but we are talking a goblin army here! Squig bombs I'm still working on perfecting, I'm a little dubious about large or small units.

Rare
I've been trying trolls with a common goblin hero (or my Lord General) mounted on a giant spider and this can provide an incredibly hard hitting unit, which is what a lot of Goblin armies lack.
Doom diver is good as always, and I'm bias against the giant now.

Fredrik
25-10-2006, 11:37
In my oppinion even getting the new netter option is worth that extra point. Netters are just .....

GrogsnotPowwabomba
25-10-2006, 14:02
Night Goblins > Common Goblins
Do we really need to discuss this? Nite Gobbos get more useful options, are much better at 3 pts than the common variety and the lower Ld, while a potential issue, can be mitigated with your general.

This is the only thing I don't agree with. For 4pts you can get 4+save Goblins with better leadership. I think common Goblins are very useful in an all-Goblin army. They only begin to suck when 6pt Orcs enter the picture...


Snotlings = good!
Cheap charge redirectors that won't panic your goblins. What's not to like? I'd say units of two bases are all you need.

Don't forget being Immune to Psychology can be a bonus against Fear-causers...


Squig Hoppers and Squig Herds = ok?
To be honest I'm undecided on these units. I'm going to need to try them out a little more (esp. the squig herds) before deciding exactly how best to use them. Discussion on these would be great.
They should be great against undead infantry though...

I think Squig Hoppers are great. The Orc & Goblin army has long wanted skirmishers, and we finally have them. They also hit very hard compared to most skirmishers, and again being Immune to Psychology is a nice thing, especially in an army that is generally weak in Leadership.


Rare
I'm gonna let someone else to this since my experience with these units so far is limited. Right now though I'm leaning towards massed snotling pump wagons and I do not like trolls at all in a low Ld goblin army. Giants are alright but I'm undecided on them.

I think the Doom Diver could go well with large amounts of Spear Chukkas.

Dranthar
26-10-2006, 00:00
This is the only thing I don't agree with. For 4pts you can get 4+save Goblins with better leadership. I think common Goblins are very useful in an all-Goblin army.

Night goblins can get nets however, so for about the same points (depending on unit size) you get the same effect as having T4 and a 4+ armour save (unless fighting S3). The advantage commons have over night goblins in this situation is the higher Ld, not relying on a 2+ for the nets benefit and the fact that they have a 4+ save against S3.

Overall I think Night goblins are better, but I guess I wouldn't say that common goblins are a total waste by comparison.


Don't forget being Immune to Psychology can be a bonus against Fear-causers...

I dont really see it as much of a bonus myself. Snotlings are highly unlikely to win combat against even zombies, so the only real advantage of immune to psyche is that you can rely on them not to run away when the fear causers charge you. I'll admit that's an advantage, though, as small as it is. :D



I think Squig Hoppers are great. The Orc & Goblin army has long wanted skirmishers, and we finally have them. They also hit very hard compared to most skirmishers, and again being Immune to Psychology is a nice thing, especially in an army that is generally weak in Leadership.

The immune to psychology is what I really like with the squig hoppers/herds. They're basically a unit that will be invaluble against fear causing armies like ogres and undead.

I really like the pump wagons for the same reason. 2D6 S4 hits should be perfect for carving up all those zombies - two charging a ranked zombie unit will net you about 14 dead zombies after combat res. :D

skyfurnace
26-10-2006, 00:05
2. Magic more dangerous to the caster.



This isn't just the Goblins. This is EVERYTHING that has the ability to throw spells in 7th Edition.

Magic should be risky. I'd say that in 7th Edition, it is. You don't want a miscast.

Rikkjourd
26-10-2006, 10:24
This isn't just the Goblins. This is EVERYTHING that has the ability to throw spells in 7th Edition.

Magic should be risky. I'd say that in 7th Edition, it is. You don't want a miscast.

True, however.... The strong goblin lists seem to have relied on magic to compensate for crappy other hero choices, so they got nerfed anyways. Even if a few other powergaming armies got nerfed, goblin got it too. It is not a general downgrade that affects all armies, just those who use magic to win, which goblins were among.

Dranthar
26-10-2006, 11:33
True, however.... The strong goblin lists seem to have relied on magic to compensate for crappy other hero choices, so they got nerfed anyways.

And on that note, it might be a good idea to discuss hero choices and magic items.

Personally, I think the staff of sneaky stealing is a strong counter-magic item, and magic mushrooms are also very good for getting spells off. Since you can choose to use a magic mushroom after rolling your casting dice, you can be sure only to use one when you really need it.

As for what heros to take in 2000pts, a warboss, BSB, shaman and either a bigboss or another shaman seems like the way to go. I'm just not sure how best to equip them. Ideas?

Rikkjourd
26-10-2006, 12:03
I am thinking of these builds for my 2000-2250pts tournament army:

Common Warboss, ulags akrit axe, amulet of protectyness, iron gnashas. With this, he will hit 75% when hitting on 4+ (which he mostly will do against characters because of his crappy WS). After that he has KB with 3 hits on average, which leads to about 42%* chance to get KB. Sure, it is a risk he won't do anything, but that seems to be a general trait of gobbos =) If he goes against a hard character he will be hard himself too, because of the amulet.
EDIT: Just as a note, you might think that having two hand weapons would be better than ulags akrit axe, but those only get 2,5 hits on average compared to 3. Ulags akrit axe also gives +1S first turn of combat, a much needed boost for the weedy gobbo.

BSB. I am undecided if I shall give him Big Red Raggedy Banner and stick him with the general, or Umms Best Boss 'at + Martogs Best Basha and let him lead a regiment of his own.

Shaman. Either 2 scrolls or lvl2 upgrade + Itty Ring + Mushrooms. This is depending on my last hero choice.

Shaman/Big boss. I don't know if it is such a good idea to go half-assed magic, since almost all armies has either good natural magic protection, a scroll caddy, or go heavy magic. I am leaning towards a fairly well equipped boss. There is also a slight chance that I will choose a NG big boss on a Giant Squig just for comedy value! =)

* 1-(5/6)^3

feeder
27-10-2006, 04:40
A nice fighty combo is the Sneaky Skewerer and the Tricksy Trinket. Take that!