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Alathir
17-10-2006, 13:35
Hey guys, this is my first time ever writing up a Bretonnia list so I didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't want to field one of those mainly knight armies because they seem to attract alot ... nastiness.

Anyway, tell me what you think.

Lords:
Bretonnian Lord = 255
-Grail Vow +28
-Lance +6
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse +21
-Sword of the Lady’s Champion +40
-Armour of Agilulf +25
-Gauntlet of the Duel +10
-Virtue of Confidence +25

Heroes:
Paladin = 210
-Battle Standard Bearer free
-Banner of the Lady +100
-Virtue of Discipline +15
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse +14
-Grail Vow +21

Paladin = 122
-Virtue of Stoicism +35
-Lance +4
-Shield +2
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse +21

Damsel of the Lady = 169
-Lvl 2 +35
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse +14
-The Silver Mirror +40
-Lore of life

Damsel of the Lady = 169
-Lvl 2 +35
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse +14
-Dispel Scroll +25
-Dispel Scroll +25
-Lore of Beasts

Core:
Knights of the Realm x 9 = 265
-Standard Bearer +16
-Musician +8
-Gallant free
-War Banner +25

Knights of the Realm x 9 = 265
-Standard Bearer +16
-Musician +8
-Gallant free
-Twilight Banner +25

Men at Arms x 30 = 184
-Standard Bearer +10
-Musician +12
-Yeomen Warden +12


Men at Arms x 30 = 184
-Standard Bearer +10
-Musician +12
-Yeomen Warden +12

Peasant Bowmen x 20 = 120

Peasant Bowmen x 20 = 140
-Skirmishers

Rare:
Field Trebuchet = 90

Grail Knights x 6 = 308
-Musician +10
-Standard Bearer +20
-The Valorous Standard +50
-Led by a Lord
-Joined by a BSB

Power Dice: 6
Dispel Dice: 4
Points Total: 2473

Ophidian
17-10-2006, 14:21
BSB can't take equipment, plus you don't seem to have given him a horse so a lance is a bit un-useable...

Alathir
17-10-2006, 15:40
Woops, well he is meant to have a horse...

TheWarSmith
17-10-2006, 15:58
I don't see any equipment on him other than the virtue, which he can have.

List looks pretty good. 3 solid units of knight for punch and lots of archers and bowmen to force the opponent to move around.

My one suggestion would be that a block of 20 archers in defensive formation is unwieldy. You'll rarely get all those attacks as they're really wide or in ranks.

Give us a clue as to your tactics. I assume the units of 9 knights ride alone while the lord rides with grail knights? Fill me in so I can help better.

Alathir
18-10-2006, 00:00
Hey Warsmith, thanks for the reply. I was hoping you'd see this.

Yeah, the idea is that the BSB and the Lord would ride with the Grail Knights, so that whatever unit they charge wont any bonus for rank or outnumbering. Plus, the Valorous Standard + the Battle Standard makes them next to unbreakable. I agree with you on the archer block, I would best to split them into 10 correct?

With the new rules for great weapons, as it stands, Questing Knights arent that viable so I didn't take them. Pegasus knights didnt really fit into the theme I had going. However, I am considering adding a Grail Reliquae, how have they been in your experience?

The other Paladin would ride with one of the Knight units, and the Men at Arms would be there just to add some numbers. Plus, they are such great models!

Not sure where to stick the Damsels.

Comments?

TheWarSmith
19-10-2006, 02:52
Put a grail reliquae near your BSB and it's basically an unbreakable unit(careful of fear though) Mine is US18 and it held against chosen khorne knights so i could counter charge.

I think putting 2 characters into grail knights is a bit much. It's just a lot of points on one unit, when I'd prefer to bolster the fighting power of more varied units of knights so I can have any unit on the board be formidable.

Many people think the Valorous standard is REALLY good, and it is on paper. But when you think about its use, it's not that great unless your BSB is using it and he's with a unit of peasants. You have to realize that if knights lose a combat and are forced to take a break test, you gotta give up on them. I'd actually rather have a unit of knights run then stick around in turn 2 a lot of the time(unless they're running from cavalry, but that's different).

Knights stink in turn 2 usually(except grail knights) but I aim my objectives around never having a turn 2, and CERTAINLY never having a turn 2 because I LOST combat. It might happen cause I didn't kill enough and they passed their break test.

Personally I think the banner of the lady is too costly. You're paying 100 points for the equivalent of +3 CR(cause he loses CR) and it's very situational. I was going to say use warbanner and virtue of duty, but you already have a warbanner in your kotr unit, and that's fine.

So you spend 100 points for occasional +3 CR. Against skaven it's even better, but that's different. Ideally you're going to be either flanking or causing so many wounds that their rank will be negligible. Think about it this way. for 100 points, you could take 2 grail knights and the virtue of duty, which would be far better than the banner of the lady.

Hope that helps. Feel free to ask question. Glad you feel my views are good.

Alathir
19-10-2006, 15:55
Good points made there, thanks again for the reply.

I thought that the paladin + lord in one unit may be a bit much. But I just loved the idea of a unit that enemies couldnt outnumber or rank up against.

But your idea of the BSB with the virtue of duty + warbanner is also a very scary combo and gives you that 3+ combat res that the banner of the lady would give... And like you said, against Skaven its fantastic but against other armies the points can be better spent.

How is the conqueror's standard? And would changing the twilight banner to the banner of chalons be a better choice?

TheWarSmith
19-10-2006, 16:23
I've never used the conquerer or twilight standard. I suppose if you play with a lot of terrain, having the twilight standard could be good, but doesn't seem that great. Personally I think the banner of defense is superb. It really helps against those cannonballs. I put it on grail knights because they're much more costly to lose than kotr. You should almost always take banner of chalons, especially against a shooty army(empire, dwarf, elves). Against 10 thunderers, usually 5 will hit, 3 will wound, and you'll fail 1-2, and lose 1-2 knights. This totally prevents that, so i think it's worth the 10 points.

You just have a LOT of points tied up in standards(150). I'd take the warbanner on your BSB, the banner of chalons on a kotr unit, and banner of defense or conquerers on grail knights.

druchii
19-10-2006, 16:39
Well,
we know it's a cold day in hell when people hope Warsmith replies to a Bretonnian thread, and leave me out of it :D

A few replies from someone that uses a bit more of a "competitive" army (dirty peasants, you stay at home!).

The banner of chalons is excellent.
TWS has already pointed out some of the fantastic reasons why. Not only that, but if you play with a regularly league, and continue to use the item, but change up the placement of it, you can sometimes bluff your opponent to fleeing with the shooty unit, rather than S&S.

I'd strongly reccomend that you find points for the reliquary. Otherwise you run the risk of making your peasants obsolete. Your knights march 16" a turn, while your commoners run 8". By turn two your yeomen will be far outpaced by your speedier knights.

Usually this wouldn't be a problem, other than the fact that you've now got a good portion of your army milling about in the back corner of the field, while your knights smash stuff.

I figure if you're going to introduce peasants into a bret army, atleast take the reliquary. Now you've got a unit that you can cement a flank with. Add in some bowmen and a trbuchet for offensive capabilities, and you can run your knights along a single flank, with rasonable confidence that your other flank/middle won't get crunched.

On magic selection: I find that the lore of life is incredible. It ammends alot of things bretonnians have problems with: Shooting, skirmishers, units hiding in woods/difficult terrain.

With the howler wind, you've solved your problem (if only for a second or two) of shooting(from normal missile fire), with your magic missile spells, you've suddenly got the ability to actually scare the wood elves out of THEIR forrests.


I hate to say it, but anyway I look at it, peasants generally stink up(no pun intended.) a Bret list. They're slow (so get left behind) poor in combat/ld (and make easy targets) they shoot (which usually becomes restricted or downright impossible when your knightly units engage in turn two). I've always thought that a "defensive" bretonnian army is a waste of the very aggressive 16" charge on the knights, and that a "shooty" army wastes points that could otherwise be spent on knights.

While I understand that you're trying to avoid the "all knight" army, but that's really where Brets excell. Have you thought of empire? Although I like MORE Bretonnian players about, it just seems that Empire would give you an army that can perform (very) well with the way you seem to want.

d

Alathir
19-10-2006, 17:11
Thanks for the replies again, both of you... and Druchii I'm rather new here so you'll forgive my ignorance.

Indeed, peasants do stink it up, I agree. But I don't plan on going in any tournaments or anything like that, just looking for a friendly list to play amongst the locals. Indeed, I think I shall free up some points for the Grail Reliquae. Am I right or wrong in believing that nearby peasants can use the Reliquae's leadership as if it were a knight unit?

I did consider Empire, but I'm not a big fan of the models or their backstory. And I've never liked collecting any of the main focus forces like Chaos or Empire. Whether or not those lowborn maggots are the reason for every single defeat, I'm still happy to bring them. The idea of these knights in shining armor backed up by such cowardly, ill fitted goons is too great an image to pass up.

TheWarSmith
20-10-2006, 09:27
You're wrong about being able to use the reliquae Ld on other peasant units. The're not knights, so they don't extend their leadership. If they did, it'd be REDICULOUS. That said, it's still a fantastic unit. It's great for charging the front while knights or mounted yeomen(preferably knights) charge the flanks. It can also hold corridors VERY well. Make sure to always keep your BSB nearby to keep it virtually unbreakable(stubborn ld8 reroll anybody?)

One hidden bonus to brets is that it's very easy to switch around banners to trick your opponent. Moving around the warbanner, chalons, and twilight banner can be really good, and since most bret armies will have 3-4 different units to take standards, your opponent will always have to be on his toes.

Lore of life can be PHENOMENAL, but it can also suck might ****. Gift of Life CAN be very useful, but it's usually pretty crappy. Howler wind is useful against a lot of armies, particularly elves and gunlines. Rain lord is fantastic against these same armies as well. Master of stone/water/woods are a bit too situational though. Unless you play games where you can set up terrain to revolve around these spells, often they go fairly wasted.

I'm going to try using 1 damsel with Beasts, and one Life this weekend instead of 2 life. I'll let ya know how it goes.

Alathir
21-10-2006, 06:52
Ok cool, yeah, the Reliquae is still very handy.

Let me know how the differing damsels go.

Alathir
23-10-2006, 18:40
Ok, taking into account the stuff I've taken on board here. Here is a modified list. It comes to a total of 2499 points.

LORDS:
Bretonnian Lord = 252
- Grail Vow
- Heartwood Lance
- Virtue of the Joust
- Gromril Great Helm
- Barded Bretonnian Warhorse
- Shield

HEROES:
Paladin = 211
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Banner of the Lady
- Virtue of Duty
- Barded Bretonnian Warhorse

Paladin = 131
- Morning Star of Fracasse
- Antlers of the Great Hunt
- Barded Bretonnian Warhose

Damsel = 159
- Lvl 2
- The Silver Mirror
- Barded Bretonnian Warhorse
- Lore of Life

Damsel = 164
- Lvl 2
- Dispel Scroll
- Chalice of Malfeur
- Barded Bretonnian Warhorse

CORE:
Knights of the Realm x 9 = 250
- Full Command
- Banner of Chalons
- Led by a Paladin

Knights of the Realm x 9 = 265
- Full Command
- War Banner
- Led by the BSB

Men-at-Arms x 30 = 177
- Full Command

Men-at-Arms x 25 = 152
- Full Command

Peasant Bowmen x 10 = 60

Peasant Bowmen x 10 = 60

SPECIAL:
Grail Reliquae = 226
- 12 Extra Battle Pilgrims

RARE:
Field Trebuchet = 100
- Yeoman Craftsman

Grail Knights x 6 = 288
- Full Command
- Banner of Defence
- Led by a Lord


So thats my force, I thought I would stick with the banner of the lady, just to give it a try, it will be worth it just to see the look on my opponents face.

I dropped the skirmishers to make room for the Reliquae that will form a center around which Men-at-Arms can form. A strategy with this force would be to have the knights all charge up one side of the field while the peasants go up the other. While the knights do what they do best and smash stuff, the peasants will act as a damage magnet and eventually catch up to their noble countrymen. And if my opponent decides to ignore the peasants entirely then I will be able to bring their strength in numbers to bear.

Comments and criticizms are more than welcome.

Morgrin
23-10-2006, 18:55
2500 points? That's an odd size as most tournaments and friendly games are of the 2000 or 2250 variety.

I really can't give much advice as I have only read that book once, but do try a large unit of skirmishing archers, they are discustingly effective.

TheWarSmith
24-10-2006, 03:33
20 regular bowmen are what? 120 points(6 points each)? You'd be FAR better with 18 skirmishing bowmen. TRUST me.

The gR doesn't need to have US24. Take out 4 of them and you'll be fine. They're not there to win combat. They're there to hold big nasties.

Men at arms only need to be 25. 30 isn't necessary.

You need either pegasus knights AND/OR Mounted Yeomen. They give you the option for flanking, which 2-3 knight units simply won't offer enough of.

Personally I'd break the 2x9 knights into 3x6. Free up room for the command. I find they're FAR more effective as they're easier to maneuvre, not as vulnerable, and they can combine charges and offer more threats to your opponent.