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The Judge
30-06-2005, 12:50
I know that Wood Elves aren't even out yet (though my redshirt mate got his big box and is showing it off), but from very reliable sources (eg. talking with a District Manager when he visited my store,) I have a few things that will, most probably, be in the new Dwarf book.
Again, I know this is early, so this may change before the book is released, like the last minute changes that happened with the Wood Elves, Orcs and other army books.

Firstly, Miners are now special, but can have the tunnelling deployment like Skaven and TK.
Engineers are upgrades for war machines, not seperate characters.
Organ Guns are now 5pts cheaper and have a 24" range.
Longbeards are an upgrade for warriors.
One unit of warriors may be brought scout (?) This puzzled me, but I guess they have been upgraded to Rangers.
A lot of runes have changed/gone/been added, but since the guy wasn't a dwarf player, he didn't really know what he had been looking at when he saw the rough draft of the book.

Not very much...but we are a long way from them yet...

Sorry, no news on models or change to background.

Kuro, Pitlord
30-06-2005, 13:27
cool so does that mean that we can have longbreads for the whole army! lol

Rathgar
30-06-2005, 13:38
cool so does that mean that we can have longbreads for the whole army! lol

I'd guess it be a 0-1 or a 1 for every 1,000 point option or maybe giving a unit the upgrade moves them from core to special or rare (dont the Lizardmen Sacred Spawning work like that?). Thatd be a normal GW thing to do.

PARTYCHICORITA
30-06-2005, 14:04
i found most of this rumors very, VERY hard to believe.

RandomZombie
30-06-2005, 14:11
mmnmm... I think the engineer one, the organ cannon one, and the rune one are true. Not so sure about the others.

Darmort
30-06-2005, 14:15
Well it's about time. Dwarfs were broken enough already.

I hope we'll see more close combat Dwarvish Armies, relying on traditionalist methods, none of this gun power stuff! No sir!
And I really hope some of the Runes are changed. I see too many Master Runes of Auto Hitting or Auto Wounding... And with Strength 6 or 7 and Autohitting... Grrrr.

Punk_in_Drublic
30-06-2005, 14:21
cool so does that mean that we can have longbreads for the whole army! lol

Or they might function like big 'uns for orks and gobbos

Later,

-Punk

Porksta
30-06-2005, 14:48
I really hope they keep the Rune of Immolation!

Snoozer
30-06-2005, 15:03
This might be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyway:

Wasen't the Army Books supposed to stay the same for 7.ed??

what have I missed?? I just hope they don't go and screw my Orc army...

:D

Megilain
30-06-2005, 15:14
There has been talk about similar update to dwarves as the Dark elf Revision, but a new book?

Well, the "improvements" at least sound a bit similar to some of the things discussed in this forum (http://www.portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2507 ) and in several others, so perhaps there might be some truth to it, although the idea of rangers as a upgrade for warriors seems kinda far-fetched...

Xxcha
30-06-2005, 15:34
All the changes seem to be based around the fluff of the armie, making them more "dwarfy", if you get my meaning.

Leceaus
30-06-2005, 16:19
These changes sounds good to me.

Well, maybe not the engineers. Or we will see such a dwarven barrage armies that it might even outshoot Empire and Skaven :P

:0)
30-06-2005, 16:45
longbreads

Geh?extra letters to fill message

Melchor
30-06-2005, 16:49
Dwarves can be upgraded to baguettes? Cool!

Kuro, Pitlord
30-06-2005, 16:55
opps i always misspell that one!

longbeards* :D

Etienne de Beaugard
30-06-2005, 17:10
This might be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyway:

Wasen't the Army Books supposed to stay the same for 7.ed??

what have I missed?? I just hope they don't go and screw my Orc army...

:D

IIRC, they said all the old army books would be usable under 7th edition, i.e. no Ravening Hordes style temp-lists.

Expect GW to redo army books and models, just like they are doing with 40k 4th ed.


Well it's about time. Dwarfs were broken enough already.

Thank you Darmot! My quest is complete! I have now seen every single WHFB armybook referred to as broken.

Anyone else remember the good old days, when WHFB 6th ed. was lauded as the best version of the game (and pretty darn well written to boot)?

laserkatten
30-06-2005, 18:06
Im just waiting for all the dwarf players to start whining about their lack of cavalry. Honestly, if dwarfs ever get a non mechanised cavalry someone at GW should be shot.

Avian
30-06-2005, 18:50
Bah, it's much too early for these sort of alterations to be ready. My guess is that this is just a fan's (or group of fans') list of wishes that the guy overheard.

Gotrek
30-06-2005, 19:52
i am a dwarf player and i don't want any cavalary in my army. if i wanted to paint horses i'd do brettonia.

Dwarf army book isn't "broken", just outpaced by all the cheese every other book got in the meanwhile. if they sticked to the standards used in the dwarven army this would be an exquisite edition.

6th ed is the best edition ever. 5th was herohammer and 6th is cavalaryhammer. i just hope for warriorhammer one of these editions.

Snoozer
30-06-2005, 20:05
IIRC, they said all the old army books would be usable under 7th edition, i.e. no Ravening Hordes style temp-lists.

Expect GW to redo army books and models, just like they are doing with 40k 4th ed.

Ok thanks...

Maybe the O&G book will get better *crosses fingers and tries to act more optimistic*

oh and so that I won't be making 2 off topic posts:
Nice rumours ;)

:D

Evisss
30-06-2005, 20:09
As im a dwarf player those changes dont really help me apart from the longbeards thing which i guess they would remein core choices from the upgrade.

I think dwarf players would like changes like runelords generating 2 dd and better slayers.

King Ulrik Flamebeard
30-06-2005, 21:07
This rumour has been around for a good while, I've heard it plenty of times (HUGE thread over at Bugman's about it). Most I don't like, but some stuff I've heard I do like the sound of.

Dwarfs have never been broken, in fact they are one of the weaker lists. When was the last time a normal dwarf army ever won/got ton ten in big GW run tournies? I've never seen one, we just lack the ability to get those massacares or solid victories. An update is welcome, we were the third book done and compared to many others we lack a lot and lack it bady. Make dwarfs a competitive army. That's all I ask.

KU

STOGNIR
30-06-2005, 21:41
Well according to a guy over at bugmans who supposedly has a friend who playtests for GW, Dwarves WILL be "el supremo" in the war machines department, something about rarer misfires and D3+1 wounds for smaller cannons. Organ guns and Runelords will get fixed.

The nastiest rumor I heard was dwarves never suffering penalties for being outnumbered in CC. So no autobreak from fear or +1 CR. This was coupled with a "Clan Shield" option for Lords which extended their LD radius to 18", and Longbeards being made Immune to Psychology.

King Ulrik Flamebeard
30-06-2005, 21:43
Actually most of the stuff seen there are member's wishes, plenty of which I don't agree with. Also are not Playtesters banned from mentioning stuff they're testing? I heard that they were.

KU

Leceaus
30-06-2005, 21:53
i just hope for warriorhammer one of these editions.

Amen to that

Griefbringer
30-06-2005, 22:21
Honestly, if dwarfs ever get a non mechanised cavalry someone at GW should be shot.

I am not sure that lots of people would be jolly to see dwarves with mechanised cavalry either.

"And here are my longbeard, riding around in their M2 Bradley!"

Etienne de Beaugard
30-06-2005, 22:41
I am not sure that lots of people would be jolly to see dwarves with mechanised cavalry either.

"And here are my longbeard, riding around in their M2 Bradley!"

Shhhh! Don't give GW any ideas, lest they find yet another use for the Rhino chassis. :rolleyes:

Freak Ona Leash
30-06-2005, 22:49
GW Rep.:Oh and another thing. In addition to laser cannons, machine guns, rocket launchers and artillery cannons, we now have Rhinos in our Fantasy game! Isnt that great! A world of swords, sorcery and monsters and we have an APC!!!!!111!!!!! We pwn all other gaming systems!
Everyone Else: :wtf:

__________________
Freak, who wished he wasnt banned from Bugmans. He also wishes Chizmeister doesnt figure out the Freak is King Bumflfuf and stole his sig again...

:0)
30-06-2005, 23:10
GW Rep:[snip]we now have Rhinos in our Fantasy game! Isnt that great!

I believe you completely forgot about the Steam Tank.

Freak Ona Leash
30-06-2005, 23:45
Oh yeah...poncy Empire gits...


__________________
Freak, who says that some how "Tank" and "Fantasy" dont go together.

snikch13
01-07-2005, 02:27
Well it's about time. Dwarfs were broken enough already.

GEH? broken?


I hope we'll see more close combat Dwarvish Armies, relying on traditionalist methods, none of this gun power stuff! No sir!
And I really hope some of the Runes are changed. I see too many Master Runes of Auto Hitting or Auto Wounding... And with Strength 6 or 7 and Autohitting... Grrrr.

GEH? shooty dwarfs broken? :confused: hmm, ive never had trouble with shooty dwarfs, but i do have to respect a dwarf infantry army, with a couple warmachines and beefed out chars sprinkled throughout.

snikch13
01-07-2005, 02:28
Thank you Darmot! My quest is complete! I have now seen every single WHFB armybook referred to as broken.

Anyone else remember the good old days, when WHFB 6th ed. was lauded as the best version of the game (and pretty darn well written to boot)?

yep, i still think 6th is the best edition so far, and thats what scares me about 7th, i fear they may break that which doesnt need fixing :(

Nazguire
01-07-2005, 11:03
I know that Wood Elves aren't even out yet (though my redshirt mate got his big box and is showing it off), but from very reliable sources (eg. talking with a District Manager when he visited my store,) I have a few things that will, most probably, be in the new Dwarf book.
Again, I know this is early, so this may change before the book is released, like the last minute changes that happened with the Wood Elves, Orcs and other army books.

Firstly, Miners are now special, but can have the tunnelling deployment like Skaven and TK.
Engineers are upgrades for war machines, not seperate characters.
Organ Guns are now 5pts cheaper and have a 24" range.
Longbeards are an upgrade for warriors.
One unit of warriors may be brought scout (?) This puzzled me, but I guess they have been upgraded to Rangers.
A lot of runes have changed/gone/been added, but since the guy wasn't a dwarf player, he didn't really know what he had been looking at when he saw the rough draft of the book.

Not very much...but we are a long way from them yet...

Sorry, no news on models or change to background.

Rumour 1: Probably True It would bring them in line with a more streamlined theory.
Rumour 2: I doubt it. I sincerely believe that they will stay as characters, just rules tweaked.
Rumour 3: Could happen, just to give the Organ Gun a better chance at damage.
Rumour 4: Doubt it. Why do that? What happens to the Special and Rare choices? Nothing there almost, the same with the Rangers theory.
Rumour 5: Doubt it See above
Rumour 6: Undoubtedly will happen as it does with every book.

Gorog Irongut
01-07-2005, 11:11
Little birdies, little birdies...

I had a chat with a little birdie two weeks ago (unfortunately I was in the land of dial up) and much was discussed about dwarfiness. Lets just say that he even went so far as to say that they were going to be bringing out an army box for it! Some form of a runup to 7th edition. Another tidbit or two was:

Dwarfs getting different formations (phalanx, square, yada yada yada)
Dwarfs being in the 7th edition rules box
Christmas release or thereabouts for dwarfs


I've heard that skaven will also be in the rules box but I tend to think that Delvises will be in there. We'll see on that one.

Must say that I am pleased by the fact that they are thinking about making Engineers an upgrade for the warmachine. Always thought that that was just common sense considering how neutered the engineers are now.

Griefbringer
01-07-2005, 11:18
Shhhh! Don't give GW any ideas, lest they find yet another use for the Rhino chassis. :rolleyes:

I am wondering why there hasn't been yet much confusion about the Rhino (Space Marines) - Rhinox (Ogre Kingdoms) similarity, just imagine seeing some Rhino-mounted ogre cavalry...

Tastyfish
01-07-2005, 13:32
Dwarfs getting different formations (phalanx, square, yada yada yada)
After all the fun they had with the lance? I strongly doubt this, messing with this basic a concept is going to cuase real problems


Dwarfs being in the 7th edition rules box
This I have heard as well, but rather than dark elves I would guess goblins. For 40K they finally picked the most archetypical Sci fi opponents to appeal to completely new gamers. Dwarfs vs Goblins seems much more appealing than a random rat-man they have never heard of. Of course we might all be getting confused with LOTR BoM equivalent - the Mines of Moria (though that has plastic fellowship)


Christmas release or thereabouts for dwarfs
And/or dark elves though this is just a few new plastic sets as part of the battalion series. It was mentioned they would be after wood elves but no idea whether they are being released together or one after the other.



I've heard that skaven will also be in the rules box but I tend to think that Delvises will be in there. We'll see on that one.
That would be strange - they are the two races least likely to encounter each other (out of a war of the beard setting). Think its just that they are getting plastics together.

Dead orc
01-07-2005, 17:32
Skaven never encoutering Dwarves? What you on?

rkunisch
01-07-2005, 18:35
Skaven never encoutering Dwarves? What you on?
He didn't meant the Skaven but the Dark Elves.

Tastyfish, you may just have found out the only good reason to include Dark Elves. At least has the War of the Beard been something remarkable in the Warhammer history. On the other hand has there been those WD articles...

I would put my money on Goblins. It would make the most sense for GW as I think the greenskins are more popular than Dark Elves (and Skaven as well).

Have fun,

Rolf.

Gorog Irongut
01-07-2005, 20:23
He didn't meant the Skaven but the Dark Elves.

Tastyfish, you may just have found out the only good reason to include Dark Elves. At least has the War of the Beard been something remarkable in the Warhammer history. On the other hand has there been those WD articles...

I would put my money on Goblins. It would make the most sense for GW as I think the greenskins are more popular than Dark Elves (and Skaven as well).

Have fun,

Rolf.

The big problem is that they have put O&G in the rule box set already. They tend to change things up a bit (i.e. brettonians/lizzies from the previous edition) whenever they do a new set of rules. It helps to get people playing different armies and in fact avoids the 40K marine dominance for Fantasy.

Skaven would be a good option as it would convince all of those skaven players out there to buy the box instead of the book (as a skaven player can never have to many models) as well as the fact that they haven't been in a rulesbox that I am aware of.

As for Delvises, my take on them is that they would be from the war of the beard. There have been rumours about a campaign pack between dwarfs and delvises from that time period. My logic says that word of mouth changed rulesbox contents to campaign pack. Throw in the fact that they are rumoured to be done relatively soon (as in models etc.) and I can easily see them being put in. It would also be a nod to all of those poor beleagered Delvis players who played with their unplayable list for so long.

Wimvh
01-07-2005, 20:51
I have on eword for you... or rather four, now I come to think of it: Master Rune of Spite!! Bring it back like it was!!

BTW: can anyone explain to me how it is that the most technologically advanced race in the (Warhammer :D ) world is dressed like Celts?

In the real world these lived some 1500 years before the Renaissance... :rolleyes: I think the Dwarfs should get a more (admittedly Middle-Ages) sence of High Tech.

Wimvh
01-07-2005, 20:54
"And here are my longbeard, riding around in their M2 Bradley!"


Well I would, but the Steam tank is cheese enough already I guess...

Griefbringer
01-07-2005, 22:06
BTW: can anyone explain to me how it is that the most technologically advanced race in the (Warhammer :D ) world is dressed like Celts?


First off, they are not dressed like Celts - they are dressed like heavily-armoured Vikings with a few extras thrown in.

Second, they are very traditional-minded folk; if that style of dress was good enough for their ancestors, it is good enough for them.

Third off, there have actually been released some dwarves in renessance-style dress, though that was a while ago.

Gotrek
01-07-2005, 22:25
NOOOOOOOooooooooo........ not dwarves in baloon shirts or prancy shoes. dwarves are clad in the best armour available, iron shod boots and the biggest, meanest, sliciest axe arround. that's dwarves, not the ho so gay empire state troops looks.

Griefbringer
01-07-2005, 23:04
Well, there is a significant emigrant dwarf population in Empire - it might actually make sense to see some of them adapting to the human fashions around, when they are not so tied by the conservative attitudes of other dwarves.

For some renessaince dwarves, check out some of the ones listed on this page: http://www.solegends.com/marauder/index.htm

Gotrek
01-07-2005, 23:09
please griefbringer (btw, that name has never suited better) don't rub salt on the wound :(

Nazguire
02-07-2005, 00:21
As for Delvises, my take on them is that they would be from the war of the beard. There have been rumours about a campaign pack between dwarfs and delvises from that time period. My logic says that word of mouth changed rulesbox contents to campaign pack. Throw in the fact that they are rumoured to be done relatively soon (as in models etc.) and I can easily see them being put in. It would also be a nod to all of those poor beleagered Delvis players who played with their unplayable list for so long.


I thought it was about Karak Eight Peaks? So how are the Delvis included in that? :)
I don't believe that the Delvis participated in the War of the Beard aside from the attack that started it, which I believe was an attack on a caravan or something like that.

Gorog Irongut
02-07-2005, 09:25
I thought it was about Karak Eight Peaks? So how are the Delvis included in that? :)
I don't believe that the Delvis participated in the War of the Beard aside from the attack that started it, which I believe was an attack on a caravan or something like that.

That was indeed one of the speculations about what the campaign pack would be about. As of yet I haven't seen anything to carry it beyond speculation.

My speculation was that the buildup for the campaign was really misinformation reguarding the release of the rulesbox (battle of macragge type setup). Perhaps a month later you will find articles in white dwarf with varying scenarios that you could put them through but it won't be the typical campaign type of layout.

Anyhoo....

So the options are the fall of a hold to rats and gobbos or skirmishing with delvises that leads to the cataclysmic war of the beards. I know which I would find more interesting.

Griefbringer
02-07-2005, 10:51
I don't believe that the Delvis participated in the War of the Beard aside from the attack that started it, which I believe was an attack on a caravan or something like that.

And in that attack they were even disguised up to look like high elves!

Tormentor of Slaanesh
02-07-2005, 12:02
are longbeards any good now? as in do they have a good rule? engineers would make war machines too expensive. are slayers changing?

Lady's Champion
02-07-2005, 17:01
No one knows yet Tormentor- but I'll be sure to PM you as soon as I find out...

boogle
03-07-2005, 17:41
well expanding slightly on things, i've just finished the Grudgebringer book written by Gav and there were some interesting tidbits about Chaos Dwarfs; there is a unit in the book called Immortals, which seemed to be CD equivilent of Ironbreakers, but with Great Weapons, they have a Daemon Engine called a Kollossus, and it is also alluded to that ALL of the CD War Machines (Death Rocket, Earthshaker and Hellcannon) are Damonic machines

boogle
03-07-2005, 17:46
actually it makes sense about the DE being in the box as 40K's rulset box was a historical set, so why not WFB?

Brandir
03-07-2005, 18:10
Actually most of the stuff seen there are member's wishes, plenty of which I don't agree with. Also are not Playtesters banned from mentioning stuff they're testing? I heard that they were.

KU

When I am involved in playtesting I am required to sign an NDA, which is quite strict. There seems to be little difference between gaming companies (I regularly playtest for a few systems offered by different companies).

What does amaze me though are the rumours relating to the armies under playtesting. They are invariably laughably off target.

Avian
03-07-2005, 18:37
When I am involved in playtesting I am required to sign an NDA, which is quite strict.
I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a playtester who doesn't take the NDA too strictly and who gave my friend's friend some exclusive info on the Woodie book which turned out to be true. Said friend's friend told my friend, who then told me.

So it's not as if the system is watertight. :p

Voss
04-07-2005, 05:09
Well its good that the guy you sort of know is willing to help out the legal community by opening himself up to lawsuits.

Anyway these rumors. Eh. The scouts/miners/longbeards as upgrades is a little wacky. Defeats the purpose of the Core/special/rare system.

Engineers as upgrades. Maybe. If they're radically different, and just a 1 wound model that allows a re-roll. A basic grunt engineer that knows a bit about artillery. This would leave an opening for a 'Master Engineer' as a character. (or given the tendency towards skills for characters in recent army books, an 'Engineer' upgrade for heros/lords)

I can't see Dark Elves vs. Dwarves in the new set. There are barely a handful of places the two could easily come into conflict. Plus both races have other foes better suited to their enmity.

Griefbringer
04-07-2005, 10:18
actually it makes sense about the DE being in the box as 40K's rulset box was a historical set, so why not WFB?

Well, in the WHFB setting there are few cases history-wise where the Druchii and Dwarves would have encountered in war.

As for the raid that started War of the Beard, that was a bunch of Druchii disguised as Ulthuaners, so I do not think that would be so great subject.

ashen_shugar
04-07-2005, 11:01
Does it matter if they could meet up? The DE and the Dwarfs I mean?
The previous ed had Lizardmen and Bretts which are hardly likely to meet.
I personally don't think that matters at all.

I do wonder what became of the two Skaven warlord figures in the Lustria book that were consequently not released. Could they have been held back for some reason? They looked too good to be scrapped.

Odin
04-07-2005, 13:01
And in that attack they were even disguised up to look like high elves!

Not that you need to be in disguise - as far as most Dwarfs are concerned if it's skinny and has pointy ears it's an elf. :p


Anyway these rumors. Eh. The scouts/miners/longbeards as upgrades is a little wacky. Defeats the purpose of the Core/special/rare system.

Not really, as long as it's designed to work in conjunction with the Core/Special/Rare system. Same as Empire Huntsmen and Inner Circle, Chaos Chosen, Orc Big 'Uns. Longbeards are just the Dwarf version of Big 'Uns really. As long as they're 0-1, and can't outnumber normal warriors I don't see a problem.

Voss
05-07-2005, 05:10
Except you're hacking 3 units out of their already limited options. The end result will end up with a Core list that reads:

Dwarf Warriors.



Yep. thats it.
Upgrades include:
0-1 units can be changed to miners/rangers/longbeards for z points
can replace shield with crossbow for x points or handgun for y points.

The difference between dwarves and empire, orcs or chaos is those army books have a lot of different unit choices for each category. Orcs in particular are spoiled for options. Dwarves don't have that variety- all their options are tied into war machines in special and rare, and essentially, pick the equipment for your infantry blocks.

Jericho
05-07-2005, 08:32
I just wanted to jump in and say that the only Dwarf to dress like a Celt is Garagrim Ironfist... somebody put some pants on that child ;) Let's just say that when fully painted and gloss varnished with the case lights shining at just the right angle... you get a disgustingly shiny surprise when looking at him from behind. I think he's just sweaty from having it tucked in with that thick, bushy beard as he's running around all day chasing Giants and whatnot...

Gorog Irongut
05-07-2005, 09:59
Except you're hacking 3 units out of their already limited options. The end result will end up with a Core list that reads:

Dwarf Warriors.



Yep. thats it.
Upgrades include:
0-1 units can be changed to miners/rangers/longbeards for z points
can replace shield with crossbow for x points or handgun for y points.

The difference between dwarves and empire, orcs or chaos is those army books have a lot of different unit choices for each category. Orcs in particular are spoiled for options. Dwarves don't have that variety- all their options are tied into war machines in special and rare, and essentially, pick the equipment for your infantry blocks.

Yes, but what is really important is that they will then bring down bolt throwers and stone throwers into core choices just to make it look a little more rounded....

As for those special choice slots that are no longer there, that's where they will insert other cool stuff. Could it be the dwarven dreadnoughts? Or something else even cooler?

Griefbringer
05-07-2005, 12:19
The difference between dwarves and empire, orcs or chaos is those army books have a lot of different unit choices for each category. Orcs in particular are spoiled for options. Dwarves don't have that variety- all their options are tied into war machines in special and rare, and essentially, pick the equipment for your infantry blocks.

Well, if you check out the Empire core choices, amny of the choices differ only in their equipment. Still fluffy to have separate entry for each, though.

Voss
06-07-2005, 05:17
@Gorog. I'll go in a spitting frenzy if they bring dread-equivalents into fantasy. Particularly for dwarves. (Not counting the chaos dwarf Collosus thing in the recent novel since golems & animated statues have a basis in myth and fantasy literature)
I just hope they don't go for filling in the list for the goofy and stylistically inappropriate Malakai Malkinson inventions. The goblin hewer was bad enough for the slayers list.


@Griefbringer. Yeah, I thought of that after I wrote it, (and why I pointed out orcs particular), but decided that since the swordsmen have a different stat-line, archers can skirmish, militia can't be parent detachments and are insanely cheap, and the knights are a significant divergence from the infantry, thats at least 4 relatively autonomous choices.

NakedFisherman
06-07-2005, 05:37
Upgrade this for this much or that for that much things generally don't exist in Warhammer. They're separate unit entries. And I'm glad they are, truth be told.

'Nicely painted halberdiers!' sounds a lot better than 'Those Empire Soldiers equipped with halberds look great.'

But yeah, upgrading this or that for this much or that much is needless complication. Why make a Longbeard upgrade an 0-1 upgrade instead of just make Longbeards 0-1 Core?

Only exceptions to this really are Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights who can be upgraded to Chosen. It works both ways, but in the case for Chaos it makes little sense to have 0-1 Chosen Chaos Warriors and 0-1 Chosen Chaos Knights as two options on top of Chaos Hounds, Chaos Warriors, Marauders, Chaos Knights, and Marauder Horsemen.

Plus it gets exceptionally confusing with the Daemonic/Beast/Mortal General and their own selection options.

For Dwarfs you're just better off with separate unit entries.

Gorog Irongut
06-07-2005, 10:09
@Gorog. I'll go in a spitting frenzy if they bring dread-equivalents into fantasy. Particularly for dwarves. (Not counting the chaos dwarf Collosus thing in the recent novel since golems & animated statues have a basis in myth and fantasy literature)
I just hope they don't go for filling in the list for the goofy and stylistically inappropriate Malakai Malkinson inventions. The goblin hewer was bad enough for the slayers list.


@Griefbringer. Yeah, I thought of that after I wrote it, (and why I pointed out orcs particular), but decided that since the swordsmen have a different stat-line, archers can skirmish, militia can't be parent detachments and are insanely cheap, and the knights are a significant divergence from the infantry, thats at least 4 relatively autonomous choices.


I just couldn't resisiting having a little fun with my post. As far as I'm aware they aren't planning on doing the dreadnought thing. But I wouldn't be surprised if you see some new warmachines in their new book.

Voss
06-07-2005, 21:01
As longer as they fit in with the established concept of dwarven warmachines I don't mind. A tradition obsessed race should stick to tradition, not come up with wacky toys.

Things like the steam tank, zeppelins and the power armor/weapons (of the gods, feh) don't fit in well with fantasy. Particularly when they've started insisting that the fantasy world isn't part of the 40K universe at all. A dreadnought-ish thing would just be aggravating the issue.

Besides, I've got Warmachine for fantasy-dread stomping.

Simon23
06-07-2005, 21:31
I heard all the models will be made clinically obese in order to account for the fact a dwarf army NEVER moves.

In all seriousness so long as the new rules encourage something other than a warmachine fest i`ll be happy.

Darkfang74
09-07-2005, 20:33
I like the idea of upgrading a unit of warriors to longbeards. And I also see it fitting to be able to add an engineer to a war machine crew for +x points.

I always thought it was stupid to spend 60+ points on a character that stands in the back and only lets you re-roll mis-fires. And you can't put them on a Flame Cannon!

PLASTICS!!!!! We need new plastics bad. I honestly love the ones we have now, but i hate the arms, what are we? Monkeys? The bodys and heads a sweet. I'd like to see a heavy armor plastic set and a lot more heads.

The Iron Breakers are perfect. Mabey just a char or two in gromril armor like that would be nice.

NEW RUNESMITHS! Hammers, Rangers, and cannon crew. We've had the same ones for... god 10 years?

I honestly think GW well make 2 plastics sets:

Heavy armor warriors, hand weapon, sheild or great weapons (I prey they are in action poses and not standing poses....) Mabey some heads to make long beards

Light armor warriors, cross bows, hand guns, throwing axes for rangers

I would like to see the Dwarfs get more runes, and I wouldn't mind a new kind of warmachine.

And I'd take a gyrocopter again if I could do the saddly missed bombing runs again.

And if dwarfs are so anti magic how about rune smiths adding 2 DS dice.

Lets get this thread going agian! :D

What do you all think?

Bael
10-07-2005, 09:57
Well according to a guy over at bugmans who supposedly has a friend who playtests for GW, Dwarves WILL be "el supremo" in the war machines department, something about rarer misfires and D3+1 wounds for smaller cannons. Organ guns and Runelords will get fixed.

The nastiest rumor I heard was dwarves never suffering penalties for being outnumbered in CC. So no autobreak from fear or +1 CR. This was coupled with a "Clan Shield" option for Lords which extended their LD radius to 18", and Longbeards being made Immune to Psychology.
This sounds good. I never understood the dwarves "superior" cannon, that only does D3 wounds compared with the Empire's D6.

Was it in WD or the old Journal where they had an article for experimental rules for a Dwarf formation that you couldn't outflank?


I heard all the models will be made clinically obese in order to account for the fact a dwarf army NEVER moves.

My dwarf army moves, as due to the "can always march" rule, it can outmanoever non-cavalry armies at close range.

Wintermute
10-07-2005, 10:28
PLASTICS!!!!! We need new plastics bad. I honestly love the ones we have now, but i hate the arms, what are we? Monkeys? The bodys and heads a sweet. I'd like to see a heavy armor plastic set and a lot more heads.


GW are scheduling Dwarf plastic releases for this December/January. Its part of their plan to have plastic regiment boxes for all of the armies.

Akuma
10-07-2005, 10:38
Well I think that all this would be good but no auto brakes form fear causing enemys is unlikly ;) - it would made Dwarf ultimate anti-undead army and there no way GW will let one army have so much edge over other - think of all the others crying cheese and so on - all in all the tendency is to make army weeker - so i wouldnt expect that much from the new army book - with the skaven chaos vc and other beeing cut down there's no way of making dwarf much better thought they need some balancing - and for all Dwarf players out there - dont whine like those HE scum :D - have pride and take the difficultis of bing a dwarf with respect :D

Darkfang74
10-07-2005, 18:34
The worlds always out to get us. But in all seriousness I know we won't be made fearless. What would be the point of slayers?

Now what if Dwarfs got a re-roll like chaos undivided? That'd make sence seeing as dwarfs are quite rough and tumble.

That'd be fair.

I just really really want A LOT of new minis. I re-do the army i have with new minis every time we get them. Makes sure I have lots of points and variety :D

zephyro
10-07-2005, 21:17
Now what if Dwarfs got a re-roll like chaos undivided? That'd make sence seeing as dwarfs are quite rough and tumble.

If you mean break tests re-rolls, it would be no-no.

They already have LD9 to show they are kinda stubborn.

Darkfang74
11-07-2005, 00:15
but they are more stubborn :P

I mean come on. A chaos Warrior or a dwarf? Who wins the be pissed off forever award? Not Khorne i can tell you that (I play khorne to oso I knoe lol)

STOGNIR
11-07-2005, 00:43
I think a little Norse Dwarf madness would be awesome for the list, as GW seems dead-set on keeping Slayer characters uniformly useless in a vanilla dwarf army.

Norse Dwarf Huscarles with Gromril Armor, Great Weapons and Stubborn...I can dream can't I?

There have been many rumors to the effect that Dwarves are going to get special formations, and that the idea was dropped from the original book in the early-mid stages of playtesting.

Another thing I heard was a "Gimli" like rule that would allow dwarves to charge 8". The whole "Natural Sprinters" business. There was also some lose talk about changing formations without penalty, as they have the reputation for peerless discipline.

Models wise, every dwarf not toting a missile weapon should be kitted out in the heavily Celto-Anglo-Saxon style hybrid Chainmaile/Platemaile that rocks so hard in the artwork.

Darkfang74
11-07-2005, 01:17
I think a little Norse Dwarf madness would be awesome for the list, as GW seems dead-set on keeping Slayer characters uniformly useless in a vanilla dwarf army.

Norse Dwarf Huscarles with Gromril Armor, Great Weapons and Stubborn...I can dream can't I?

There have been many rumors to the effect that Dwarves are going to get special formations, and that the idea was dropped from the original book in the early-mid stages of playtesting.

Another thing I heard was a "Gimli" like rule that would allow dwarves to charge 8". The whole "Natural Sprinters" business. There was also some lose talk about changing formations without penalty, as they have the reputation for peerless discipline.

Models wise, every dwarf not toting a missile weapon should be kitted out in the heavily Celto-Anglo-Saxon style hybrid Chainmaile/Platemaile that rocks so hard in the artwork.


You sir, get a cookie!!!!!

I also had heard of the formations being dropped with the 6th ED book. I agree on the no move penelty for formation change.

I mean, we add a rank and can move 1 inch?????

The charge 8 would be nice, would keep people from moving their regiments back 1 inch just to keep us from charging. And it well also help with my rune of slowness!

We;ll just have to wait and see. The WE look NICE some of the best minis GW has done in ages. I pray we get the same treatment!!!!!

ON STRIKE! No more 10 year old minis!!!! :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

Xisor
11-07-2005, 01:37
I was on the Air Cadet Drill team that won our 'Drill Competition' in 2004(ie I was one of the 13 best 'marchers' in the whole of the Air Cadets ogranisation). By god we were fairly disciplined and it took a hefty amount for even a Queens Colour Squadron drill-corporal to pick up on some of our members for drill!(QCS being 'the' RAF Sqn for Drill and marching etc).

In this manner, I know how complicated the whole marching stuff is. Bloody difficult. If a dwarf, as a 'non-human' and part of their racial heritage are renowned for being 'disciplined' in drill then by god, they'd trounce the lot of us!

I'm quite a fan of dwarfs being able to reform without penalty. This'd allow Dwarfs to 'really' be disciplined as an army: huge rows of Dwarf Quarellers and Thunderers all in a 'firing setup'(ie no more than two ranks), as the enemy draws near, one voice rings out above the rest and then the whole line in what to the human eye is perfect unison reforms into deep ranks and they all unholster their axes and unsling their shields ready to take the charge....!

Think of the Elves from the starting battle at the outset of The Fellowship of the Ring(film obviously), during the battle of the 'Last Alliance'. Looked pretty impressive and almost well synchronised compared to a human 'army' of the same kind eh? Dwarfs do that better :D

(Though to be fair<spits>, elves are quite disciplined as well, more than a manling anyway!)

Xisor

EDIT: Oh the shame! One instead of Won :rolleyes:

Dargon
11-07-2005, 03:28
GW are scheduling Dwarf plastic releases for this December/January. Its part of their plan to have plastic regiment boxes for all of the armies.
Well, that throws all my previous speculation out the window :D .

With the most recent rumours indication the Dwarfs would be part of a Fantsy "Battle of Macragge" set (ie. 7th Edition ;) ), plus GW's repeated insistance that there would be no revisions/rewrites until 7th Edition, I wasn't anticipating seeing them until September 2006.

Needless to say, this throws up alot of questions about what GW have planned for the Dwarfs, and where all the other rumours will fit in.
The Dwarf Rewrite?
The Dwarfs vs Skaven "Battle for Macragge" set?
7th Edition?

It's going to be a very long 6 months :D .

Just a thought...

Darkfang74
11-07-2005, 03:55
Yah the wait is gonna kill me, like it did when having to wait 9 months for the Grey Knights. But look how thats come and gone....

Now heres a question. Well the Dwarf VS Goblin (or Skaven or both), like the battle of Macragge set have plastic scenery and well the minis be plug and play with each mini having 1-3 parts????

Or well it be a more advanced set holding multi-part figs?

And well this include a mini 7th ed rule book and a senerio book as well??

I think its a good idea! But theres just one thing I really don't want to see happen because of it....

New beardlings making Dwarfs the space marines of fantasy.

I'm proud of my 15 year dwarf army. And I also love the challenge at tournys to be one of the few if not the only Dwarf player.

Thats my 2 cents....

Thoughts?

Darkfang74
11-07-2005, 04:06
Turned the above into a thread. Lots of info could come of it

Voss
11-07-2005, 04:51
whoa, whoa. The no revision/rewrite thing wasn't (AFAIK) about new army books. It was about the 'Trial' assault/vehicle/whatever rules that turned the end of 3rd edition 40K into a random mish-mash of conflicting information, where out of any 3 people, 2 were using different versions. Made me shelve my 40K stuff, actually.

@Wintermute. This is a definite thing, new plastics around January? Not to be skeptical, but based on...?

Dargon
11-07-2005, 06:21
The no revision/rewrite thing wasn't (AFAIK) about new army books. It was about the 'Trial' assault/vehicle/whatever rules that turned the end of 3rd edition 40K into a random mish-mash of conflicting information, where out of any 3 people, 2 were using different versions.The no revision/rewrite thing, has nothing to do with any kind of trial rules. It has been an oft repeated response from GW ever since they printed the Dark Elf revision in White Dwarf (to discourage other armies from getting their hopes up). It is usually encountered whenever the topic of a High Elf revision emerges ;) .

Just a thought...

NakedFisherman
11-07-2005, 06:32
I think a little Norse Dwarf madness would be awesome for the list, as GW seems dead-set on keeping Slayer characters uniformly useless in a vanilla dwarf army.

Norse Dwarf Huscarles with Gromril Armor, Great Weapons and Stubborn...I can dream can't I?

There have been many rumors to the effect that Dwarves are going to get special formations, and that the idea was dropped from the original book in the early-mid stages of playtesting.

Another thing I heard was a "Gimli" like rule that would allow dwarves to charge 8". The whole "Natural Sprinters" business. There was also some lose talk about changing formations without penalty, as they have the reputation for peerless discipline.

Models wise, every dwarf not toting a missile weapon should be kitted out in the heavily Celto-Anglo-Saxon style hybrid Chainmaile/Platemaile that rocks so hard in the artwork.

Please, no more special formations.

Why is it that whenever someone talks about revision people break out 20 special rules? I wouldn't want WHFB to be like 40K where it's a hodge-podge mess of special rules and army lists. Give army special rules that add flavor to the army, but please don't introduce them as crutches. It's annoying.

Nazguire
11-07-2005, 08:38
Please, no more special formations.

Why is it that whenever someone talks about revision people break out 20 special rules? I wouldn't want WHFB to be like 40K where it's a hodge-podge mess of special rules and army lists. Give army special rules that add flavor to the army, but please don't introduce them as crutches. It's annoying.


I like the idea of reforming without penalty. Not a huge departure from the current rules, just discounting any penalties. That's all really. I like that idea. The 8" is ridiculous.

Please oh please GW emphasise the god damned shield-wall of the Dwarves pleaseeeeee!

Wimvh
11-07-2005, 13:39
NOOOOOOOooooooooo........ not dwarves in baloon shirts or prancy shoes. dwarves are clad in the best armour available, iron shod boots and the biggest, meanest, sliciest axe arround. that's dwarves, not the ho so gay empire state troops looks.

That's not what I meant. I want to see them in 16th century style armour... Even the most traditionally minded dwarf can see the advantage in having a round helmet instead of flat or ribbed one.

And it is not that they do not have the skill to forge them...

In addition, Dwarfs would have invented stuff like full plate, so they would have shoulder plates, armoured gauntlets and the like

NakedFisherman
11-07-2005, 16:03
In addition, Dwarfs would have invented stuff like full plate, so they would have shoulder plates, armoured gauntlets and the like

Dwarfs invented Full Plate. The Full Plate of the Empire is crafted by Dwarfs. :P

Darkfang74
11-07-2005, 21:27
I think the heavy ancient feel for dwarfs is best! The make the manlings new fangled things like full plate but a dwarf would feel more comfterable in his great great great great grandads armor.

Dwarfs are nothing but tradition!

Nazguire
12-07-2005, 00:45
I think the heavy ancient feel for dwarfs is best! The make the manlings new fangled things like full plate but a dwarf would feel more comfterable in his great great great great grandads armor.

Dwarfs are nothing but tradition!


Perhaps a combination of the two. Give them their grand fathers britches, their grandmothers breastplate and their dead brothers boots, but then at the same time introduce the whole Engineer forward thinking part that is combined with Adeptus Mechanicus type rituals :D

Darkfang74
12-07-2005, 06:42
OOOO SQUATS!!!!!

VIVA LA SQUATS!!!!!!

But seriously. Their look is unique, lets keep it that way. I don't want short Empire guys.....

Bran Dawri
23-08-2005, 12:58
Well, the most recurring rumours I've heard about dwarves include only one army-wide special rule, and that one is sorely needed.
It's apparently called "stoic", and it means all dwarves will count as US 2 for purposes of outnumbering (or possibly for autobreaking by fear only).
IMNSHO, this is by far the most important rule (whichever variation is happening) that the new dwarves can be given, as currently their terrible vulnerability to autobreak is what keeps dwarves from getting anywhere at all in tourneys. This rule should be enough to keep a decent dwarf army from autolosing to VC in a tourney environment (which is pretty much the case, currently), and dwarfs already have some kind of game vs nearly every other army out there (the usual exceptions being skaven SAD and all-skink lizzies).
I want to believe this, but I don't know how likely it is.

Beyond that, all the changes I've heard concern messing around with core/special allocations and rulestweaks. I'll line up the most likely ones:

- Runelords add 2 DD instead of one, which they should've done from day one.
Very likely.
- Longbeards are now an upgrade for warriors, a la chosen knights, innercircle knights and big 'uns. Seems fluffy to me, and it's one of the more persistent rumours, so I'm tending towards "likely"
- longbeards become immune to psychology standard. Not very likely, especially considering the above rumour.
- hammerers get gromril armour and greatweapon, but lose option for shield.
Sounds a bit too good to be true, to me. Not very likely, IMO.
- There will be new units/warmachines for dwarfs as well, but I've no idea who or what.
Sounds likely, but without further specifications, I'm hedging my bets on this one.

At the end of the day, all I really want is for the dwarfs to reclaim their throne as the toughest race in the Warhammer world, barring none. If GD manage to achieve that, I couldn't care less how they do it.

Cenyu
23-08-2005, 13:02
It's apparently called "stoic"[...]

Oh, they become immune to panic when fighting Dark Elves?

Avian
23-08-2005, 13:26
I think I may be the one who suggested the Longbeard-upgrade (at least I haven't seen anyone suggesting it around here before I did). Before that people generally said they should have Immune to Psychology.
That doesn't mean it might not happen, though.

I think you are very optimistic if you think Hammerers are getting Gromril armour.

Lab Monkey
23-08-2005, 14:20
I think more and more armies are getting Kindred-like clans. So I guess there'd be a Slayer-clan, a traditionalist (longbeard?) clan, an engineer clan and maybe more. All clans would have their own characters (ie Wardancer Lord, Waywatcher Lord etc.) Whatcha think?

metallegion
23-08-2005, 14:48
I just hope the new look will be more like the art of page 13 of the army book. They need to look more warlike (not chaos like) With armored face plates and Fur pelts!

Cenyu
23-08-2005, 18:21
I just hope the new look will be more like the art of page 13 of the army book. They need to look more warlike (not chaos like) With armored face plates and Fur pelts!

Hell yeah.

Ghost of War
23-08-2005, 18:22
I long for the day that Longbeards are point effective and in armies all over. The models are just sweet in compairison to the rest of the army. If gw redoes them.. I would probally faint at the quality.

Bran Dawri
23-08-2005, 19:19
Oh, they become immune to panic when fighting Dark Elves?

Don't be silly. I didn't make up that name, but that's what I've heard.
And I heard about the longbeard upgrade thing at Bugman's Brewery and from a bloke at this years' Dutch GT.
I doubt that hammerers will get gromril armour as well. I did say I thought the rumour unlikely, didn't I?

Darkfang74
23-08-2005, 20:41
Well since the Hammerers are the kings personal guard I could see them mabey with runic heavy armor.

Working like gromril.

Or give them gromril and have Iron Breakers be considered wearing Runic armor like they did in the past.

I can't wait to see pictures!!!!!! Come on already!!!!

Cenyu
23-08-2005, 20:57
Don't be silly. I didn't make up that name, but that's what I've heard.

No intention to be silly, the rule "stoic" is just an existing rule for High Elves.


: Darkfang, what is Runic Armour supposed to do on non-hero models?

Darkfang74
23-08-2005, 21:04
I do like the sounds of the rule though. I hope its true.

static grass
23-08-2005, 21:13
Reforming without movement penalty will be quite a bonus for the dwarfs. If we get any benefits like this I would expect units to be able to or subtract one rank without penalty. OR maybe a reform as a charge reaction.

I would like to see the Rune lord fixed, he is a poor choice next to a lord or runesmith.

I would like to see that taking x number of one type of machine taking one special slot. This could be symptom GWs "moon on a stick" syndrome though.

Anycase I am looking forward to christmas, the store staff here said the dwarfs will be out in time for it. Ho ho ho.

Cenyu
23-08-2005, 21:38
Free reforms for Dwarves does not seem very characterful to me. In fact it does not sound Dwarfish at all.

What do you mean by the "moon on a stick"? Do you want Dwarves be able to take e.g. 2 cannons for one elite slot? This would be really mean... no, thanks, really.

: Another thought on the proposed "stoic" special rule: Autobreak due to fear and outnumber should be nerfed anyways. :angel:

Darkfang74
24-08-2005, 03:50
I can see auto breaking fitting though, I mean how offten do Skellies or zombies actually win combat? And Orcs, Humans, Gobbos etc are scared! But not a Dwarf, Dwarfs fear nothing! Matter of fact we hate it :P

I do hope to see such a rule, it would be very characterful!

Yanos
24-08-2005, 09:00
...I like the idea of reforming without penalty. Not a huge departure from the current rules, just discounting any penalties. That's all really. I like that idea. The 8" is ridiculous...

Heh, I have visions of Initiative 2 Dwarf units pirouetting gracefully across the battlefield, while the clumsy Elves and Skaven lumber to catch up :D. Good in theory :) , not sure if it would work on the table.

Scactha
24-08-2005, 09:47
If I got a dime for every time the 'no penalty for reforming' suggestion was brought forward for some armys defiancies Id be rich. Go play 40k if you want that. It wont happen.

Odin
24-08-2005, 11:56
- hammerers get gromril armour and greatweapon, but lose option for shield.
Sounds a bit too good to be true, to me. Not very likely, IMO.

Sounds about right to me. After all, they're the King's bodyguard. And if Longbeards are being improved, and Ironbreakers are already really hard, Hammerers will need to have something good to offer (well, I suppose they've already got Stubborn...).