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NaT
19-10-2006, 04:39
It's a pretty simple question i guess, are non-human races able to become Vampires?

And related: Can Skeletons and Zombies be made out of ANYTHING dead?

metro_gnome
19-10-2006, 04:43
they can and are...
http://uk.games-workshop.com/dogsofwar/cursed/1/

don't know about the vampire question tho...

Griefbringer
19-10-2006, 09:49
There was an earlier discussion about the vampire issue - cannot reach the conclusion, but I think it was suggested that few vampires would be weird enough to try vampirising non-humans.

Hideous Loon
19-10-2006, 09:54
Yes, I recall that one. Dunno if it came to a conclusion though. I would suppose that a Dwarf or an Ogre (he wouldn't have any problems, he manages to imbibe blood through his regular diet, so to speak) could be vampirised, but Skaven would be of a far too high metabolism to become vampires, they would perish within minutes.

A neutral shade of black.
19-10-2006, 09:54
And that non-human vampires would probably explode.

(Or at least be rather badly mutated. I still prefer the 'splodiness, though.)

Revlid
19-10-2006, 12:31
It's impossible for anything other than human to become a vampire by being bitten. It's like half-breeds, it just doesn't happen in warhammer.

However, that's only by being bitten. I can fully imagine a Dark Elf Sorceress or an overly curious High Elf alchemist creating an elf-friendly version of Nagash's vampire-juice. Heck, Ogres might be able to brew it up thanks to particularly un/lucky Butcher looking for the perfect sauce...
And I'm pretty sure there's a small clan of mildly vampiric skaven with an aptitude for Necromancy thanks to living under Sylvania for too long... They were in a WHFRP book, weren't they?

RobC
19-10-2006, 12:51
The skaven you refer to were in a 'bits left out' selection of clans on the BI website. In my opinion their omission was quite correct.

Forbiddenknowledge
19-10-2006, 13:08
Ah, the Geniveve Novel, there was a dwarf vampire at the convent of Eternal Night and Solace.


Anything can be vamped.

Scythe
19-10-2006, 13:10
I am with Revlid here. Nagash created the exiler of life to make humans immortal, I doubt it works on other creatures. Plus we have never heard of any other than human vampires in the background. Maybe, if you got the original potion, you could adjust it to work on non-humans, but I doubt Neferata or Nagash want to share their receipts.

DisruptorX
19-10-2006, 13:15
It does not seem that the other races really need it. Powerful skaven lords live for centuries, elves live thousands of years, orcs don't fear death. I don't know about dwarfs, but humans seem pretty unique in wanting to live forever, but not being able to.

I'm pretty sure anything can be a skeleton or zombie, too. Assuming its a vertibrate, of course. I guess you could have a zombie octopus or bug, though.

Scythe
19-10-2006, 13:48
The rotten leviathan from the zombie pirates list is technically a zombie, correct? So even great sea monsters can be turned into zombies. Guess you can really turn anything into zombies; we have already models of human zombies, elves, dwarves, dogs, dragons and horses.

Jedi152
19-10-2006, 13:50
Any living thing can be a zombie, it's just a re-animated corpse.

Vampires, however, are a bit more complicated.

Rathgar
19-10-2006, 17:52
I think it’d be possible to calculate the recurrence rate of topics like this. The question of none human vampires seems to resurface on a four or five month cycle.

Vampirism in the warhammer world (unless it’s caused by chaotic mutation), is essentially the process of cutting off a mortal’s soul from the Realm of Chaos. The price you pay for this is that your essence in someway stagnates without the dynamic stuff of change, and you’re forced to either tap into the winds of magic, or sucking the soul-fire out of other living creatures.

We don’t know if the souls of other races differ in some fundamental way in comparison to human souls, but it’s strongly implied (especially in the case of elves and greenskins). It could simply be that vampirism just can’t arise in any other race. For example, the elves have a very special dynamic with the winds of magic and the Aethyr and it could well be the case that drawing the soul entirely within their mortal frames is fatal.

To be honest, the imagery could be bent to accommodate or exclude other race vampires. Someone just needs to make a firm decision.

NaT
20-10-2006, 05:32
So, an Elf Vampire thall is in? :D awesome

I've just been having lots of whacky ideas about theming my new VC army (mainly to get around using the horrible skeletons). An elf vampire raising a host of his fallen kin was just one of them.

Rathgar
20-10-2006, 13:07
So, an Elf Vampire thall is in?

We really canít say. Thinking about I think someone once mention that Rick stated that elf and dwarf physiologies arenít compatible.

I just though it was worth starting that in a case like this the imagery can be bent either way. I keep going though phases of either hating the idea of nonhuman vampires with a fiery passion and thinking itíd be quite interesting. So Iím a bit hesitant to offer up a view, because I know my opinion is likely to change.

Hate Train
22-10-2006, 20:15
Any race can be gifted the Blood Kiss and turned into a Vampire. The thing is that usually only humans will take it willingly, and most vampires, being human, only ever desire to give it to other humans. And Strigoi hate everyone and wouldn't even try to gift to anybody the blood kiss.

MvS
22-10-2006, 22:37
I was told that the Elder races can't be turned into vampires. The comments came straight from the horse's mouth - R.P.

Something about the nature of their souls and/or their resistence to magic.

Make of that what you will.

DisruptorX
23-10-2006, 12:45
I was told that the Elder races can't be turned into vampires. The comments came straight from the horse's mouth - R.P.

Something about the nature of their souls and/or their resistence to magic.

Make of that what you will.

GW featured a fully converted High Elf Blood Dragon's elven undead army in one of the old White Dwarfs, though, so it would appear that they support such deviations from the canon if it is well thought out and presented.

It'd make sense for elves not to be vampires, of course, why would they want to?

Rathgar
23-10-2006, 12:55
GW featured a fully converted High Elf Blood Dragon's elven undead army in one of the old White Dwarfs, though, so it would appear that they support such deviations from the canon if it is well thought out and presented.

Letting miniatures dictate background? Donít say that too loudly or Rob will have a fitÖ

Eldacar
23-10-2006, 12:56
GW featured a fully converted High Elf Blood Dragon's elven undead army in one of the old White Dwarfs, though, so it would appear that they support such deviations from the canon if it is well thought out and presented.
On the other hand, though, it looks as though that wasn't a High Elf Blood Dragon - his face seemed to be that of a skeleton as opposed to a vampire, while the mages accompanying the army were converted to look like Necromancers. Now, if somebody has that WD with them and can provide the number, then feel free to disagree/disprove this, but I'm about 80% sure that it was just a overpowered skeleton using the Blood Dragon statline rather than an actual elven Blood Dragon.

DisruptorX
23-10-2006, 13:10
I'll dig through my White Dwarfs eventually and find out.

Scythe
23-10-2006, 13:53
On the other hand, though, it looks as though that wasn't a High Elf Blood Dragon - his face seemed to be that of a skeleton as opposed to a vampire, while the mages accompanying the army were converted to look like Necromancers. Now, if somebody has that WD with them and can provide the number, then feel free to disagree/disprove this, but I'm about 80% sure that it was just a overpowered skeleton using the Blood Dragon statline rather than an actual elven Blood Dragon.

The blood dragon was actually based of the Tyrion model, with not that much conversion done if I remember correctly. As the mages were all based on HE mages, and a lot of the troops were undead elves, I believe that the idea was that it was actually a real elven vampire.

RobC
23-10-2006, 13:53
Letting miniatures dictate background? Donít say that too loudly or Rob will have a fitÖI'll be sure to pull some strings and get my Chaos Vampire Slann featured in WD at some point. :D

But seriously - no.

Drasanil
24-10-2006, 06:21
It'd make sense for elves not to be vampires, of course, why would they want to?

If a Lahmian with an elf fetish, to put it in simpler terms, decided to force the gift of vampirism on an elf, whether he/she would want it in the first place would be quite irrelevant, wouldn't you say?

Personaly, I don't much care whether it's humans only or not, but if it isn't humans only, I'd say the further one is from the human/demi-human template the less likely you would find a vampire of that race, if at all. An elf or dwarf vampire might come along once in a blue moon, but a troll or skink vampire would most likely never be sired even if it were possible.

MvS
24-10-2006, 11:03
But seriously - no.
I'll second that.

We have to remember that the big industry and raison d'etre of GW is the miniatures and the hobby. If someone does a good conversion and has a fully and unusually painted army then of course it will be of interest to WD.

This doesn't mean that the army in question has much to do with the imagery of Warhammer or the 'canon'.

Hellebore
24-10-2006, 11:31
GW featured a fully converted High Elf Blood Dragon's elven undead army in one of the old White Dwarfs, though, so it would appear that they support such deviations from the canon if it is well thought out and presented.

It'd make sense for elves not to be vampires, of course, why would they want to?

However, GW often features non canon themed armies, like a halo inspired imperial guard army (imperial guard do not possess vehicles like those portrayed in that game). There are also many 'joke' themed armies that are very well done, which get alot of attention, but it doesn't mean they are 'canon'.

MvS; I can understand the dwarfen resistance to magic, but what about the elves? They aren't really resistant to magic.

I suppose you could argue that the elven soul is so strongly bound to the warp, that you can't seperate it. As for the dwarfs, perhaps their soul is just too 'tough' to actually sever?

Hellebore

MvS
24-10-2006, 11:58
I would imagine something similar.

It's not like the Elder race caveat was explained to me, or indeed, it's not like the caveat necessarily has a reasonable explanation. There is a certain degree of dictat from above when it comes to some imagery issues, and even as BL writers we are often just expected to accept what we're told at face value without anything so fiddly as an explanation - or, at least, so was often the case in my day (haven't written for the company in around 2 years now).

Another thing to remember, the description of what vampirism is and how it works in Warhammer is entirely my own invention. The existing stuff was contradictory, suggesting everything from daemonic possession to Pariah-like soulessness. None of these seemed to fit, so I tried to come up with a balance to explain how something could be as powerful and magical as a vampire, but not daemon possessed or just some C'tan spin off.

Bearing this in mind, the reason why Elves can't become vampires (as appears in Mr. Priestly's mind's eye) may not tally with the explanation of what vampirism is as I have suggested it. This being the case, the imagery may... er... evolve...? as and when it is seen fit to 'allow' it to. So indeed it may be decided at a later date that vampires are indeed daemon possesssed or truly soulless or somesuch.

For now though, until it is contradicted by an army book or some other 'prime source' material, I guess the Necris description of vampirism stands (it was approved and printed after all), just don't get too comfortable with it, just in case...

Eldacar
24-10-2006, 12:36
The blood dragon was actually based of the Tyrion model, with not that much conversion done if I remember correctly. As the mages were all based on HE mages, and a lot of the troops were undead elves, I believe that the idea was that it was actually a real elven vampire.
Yes, the model was based off Tyrion, but IIRC, his face was that of a skeleton as opposed to an actual vampire.


I suppose you could argue that the elven soul is so strongly bound to the warp, that you can't seperate it. As for the dwarfs, perhaps their soul is just too 'tough' to actually sever?
Agreed on the elves, and as to the Dwarf soul question, vampirism is a magically-based disease, IIRC. As such, a magic-resistant Dwarf will likely be unaffected beyond perhaps a newly-born craving for red meat. :p

Hellebore
24-10-2006, 12:42
Yes, the model was based off Tyrion, but IIRC, his face was that of a skeleton as opposed to an actual vampire.


Agreed on the elves, and as to the Dwarf soul question, vampirism is a magically-based disease, IIRC. As such, a magic-resistant Dwarf will likely be unaffected beyond perhaps a newly-born craving for red meat. :p

Then you get into the exact nature of that 'resistance'.

How exactly ARE dwarfs resistant to magic? It must be something to do with their soul. Is it metaphysically 'tougher' than other souls ie suffers less degradation over time when exposed to the warp.

The only thing I can think of is that it is metaphysically 'dense/hard', making it very hard to damage, but also making it very hard to use to manipulate the warp.

Maybe that 'density' is reversed in Chaos dwarfs, so their PHYSICAL form starts to solidify, at the expense of 'lightening' their soul and enabling a connection to the warp???

The resistance to magic thing has always bugged me.

Hellebore

Forbiddenknowledge
24-10-2006, 13:20
Again, I mention the Geniveve books - a vampire dwarf was in them.

Rathgar
24-10-2006, 16:16
Again, I mention the Geniveve books - a vampire dwarf was in them.

Yer, and so is Suddenland.


Then you get into the exact nature of that 'resistance'.

How exactly ARE dwarfs resistant to magic? It must be something to do with their soul. Is it metaphysically 'tougher' than other souls ie suffers less degradation over time when exposed to the warp.

The only thing I can think of is that it is metaphysically 'dense/hard', making it very hard to damage, but also making it very hard to use to manipulate the warp.

Maybe that 'density' is reversed in Chaos dwarfs, so their PHYSICAL form starts to solidify, at the expense of 'lightening' their soul and enabling a connection to the warp???

The resistance to magic thing has always bugged me.

Hellebore

Iíve always considered that the dwarf soul just has a different relationship with the Aethyr. Theyíre at the other end of the spectrum from elves in that they much more about the physical world, this is reflected in their culture, religion and temperament. So maybe thereís a greater entanglement of soul and physical shell? To the extent where a dwarf canít ďreach outĒ and effect the winds of magic?

MvS
24-10-2006, 16:52
To be honest there isn't yet any coherent reason at all explaining why and how Dwarfs are resistant to magic. I wanted to explore it in RoS but was very roundly told to drop all the ideas I put forward and not bother putting any others forward for them again. So I didn't...

Having said that, I didn't send any of the shot-down-before-take-off Dwarf stuff in to GW so I am free to print it here. I'll go find it...

EDIT

Okay, here's a summary of the stuff I suggested.

I won't pretend all of it is fully rounded or thought out yet, it was rejected at the very earliest stage of bullet-points after all, but it tries to deal with why and how Dwarfs are magic-resistant, how they can create the most powerful Runes in the world if they have no magical aptitude, and also tie in with the Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers turning to stone thing:

HOW DWARFS CAST/ETCH/CARVE RUNES

I suggest that despite all statements to the contrary, Dwarfs must be able to subconsciously feel (though not see) magic to some degree. They feel it in their bones, in the fibre of their beings, and generally they don’t like it – makes them cold, grim and discontent. But unlike other races, Dwarfs are for some reason insulators of magic. They absorb it and lock it away in the very molecules of their being, ‘earthing’ it in a sense, but also storing it unwittingly. Why is this? I don’t know. Call it an experiment by the Old Ones or something.

Dwarfs that are exposed to too much magic eventually turn to stone – they may mutate as well, but the stone thing is a precedent set by the Chaos Dwarfs imagery. We can say that this is a product of their biological and spiritual makeup, if they absorb too much magic, their bodies work harder to insulate against it, making their bones, and eventually everything else, denser and harder. Eventually they turn into a substance so similar to stone no-one would know the difference. The amount of magic required to do this in one go, however, would be enough to spontaneously turn a large group of normal humans into a melody or spray of colour – in other words, loads. More often than not, dwarfs are killed by a massive spell (like a huge fireball) before their bodies can absorb and insulate enough of its magic to turn them into stone.

They can be mutated if enough non-terminal magic washes over them quickly enough, although this is probably quite rare, judging by the tone of the current imagery. They might even be some tales that Dwarfs with minor mutations who have taken the oaths of a Slayer and gone seeking their deaths, only to find that over time the mutation retreats – doubtlessly as their remarkable bodies ‘metabolise’ the magic that warped them in the first place.

Dwarfs can’t cast spells in the normal understanding of the word. As mentioned above, it takes a huge amount of magic to mutate a dwarf even a little (unlike a human), and it takes quite a lot of magic in the air before a Dwarf will even sense it subconsciously. Some Dwarfs, however, sense it a bit more easily than others, and this is because they are even more ‘absorbent’ than others. This has a dual effect: spells are even less likely to work around them, while they are slightly more likely to be drawn to, or talent-spotted by, Runesmiths.

Runesmiths cast runes by focussing all their attention upon the rune in question, and fixing into their minds and their every intention exactly what it is that this particular rune is meant to do. Then, while hammering out the weapon (or whatever), they chant songs intended to focus this will even more upon the matter in hand. Essentially they force the magic stored and insulated within them into the rune. This ‘fires up’ the rune, dictates how much magic the rune will be able to store and makes in receptive to the so-called Anvils of Fate or Anvils of Doom that all great rune items are made upon.

The Runesmith’s absolute faith, utter determination and complete self-confidence (in a way that humans could not possibly understand) that what he is doing will work, in turn fires up the anvils, which dating from the time of the Prime Ancestors themselves, draw unto themselves the winds of magic, like a conductor and battery, and supplies the magic that is needed for the rune to work.

Rune crafting is an incredibly personal thing, and most dwarf Runesmiths say that a part of their soul goes into whatever they make. In the sense that they are squeezing stored magic out of themselves into the rune to give it its initial ‘charge’ and determine how much magic it will be able to store, this is true. With every drop of sweat that falls from the Runesmith onto the item he is making, every lungful of breath he blows into his forge, and every drop of blood he dowses his creation in (a very common practise), more of the magic stored and insulated in the Runesmith is passed on the item.

So the runesmith provides the concept of what the rune is to do, the initial ‘charge’ to make it able to attract magic and to determine the 'depth' of the rune as a 'container' for magic (note that this has nothing to do with the physical size of the rune), and the Anvil of Doom supplies the rest of the magic.

However, runesmiths also make items out of quasi-magical alloys like gromril (which attracts more magic than many other metals – even gold), and different runes require different ‘ingredients’ in their casting for their specific effect to take place – like dragon blood (highly charged with magic), orc blood (again, but in a different way), or the ground fangs, bones or talons of various magical (warp-touched) creatures. Just as a powerful magister can draw the weak ambient magic that saturates the world around him (as opposed to just drawing upon the raw winds of magic), so too do different runes draw upon specific combinations of magic that have been absorbed into various substances – substances that are more often than not the remains of some kind of magical creature.

Dwarf runes are like the words of a very specific and powerful spell, but instead of needing to be spoken to work, the runes, in effect, read themselves again and again and again. Once cast, they do not require help or interference from mortals, unless such a requirement is actually built into them, like an activation word.

++++++++++++++++++++++

That's about it really. I guess the relevant stuff to this thread is the stuff about Dwarfs as magical 'insulators'.

If this is a bit too OT for the moderators, just say and I'll take it down.

:)

DisruptorX
25-10-2006, 13:18
If this is a bit too OT for the moderators, just say and I'll take it down.

:)

I find it very interesting, excellent write up. The whole turning to stone part, especially the chaos dwarfs, was always very interesting. A dwarfish vampire is rather absurd seeming, anyhow!

Rathgar
25-10-2006, 14:37
All seems logical. I’m not sure I like the concept of ‘healing’ mutations, or the idea that the runesmiths are channelling magic stored from within them… wouldn’t that then mean that suitably powerful spellcasters should be able to use dwarfs as a source of magic? You could end up with some silliness there.

But the rest solves the dwarf riddle quite nicely.

MvS
25-10-2006, 16:29
Well these are the problems. As I said, these were literally written off the cuff for discussion with those 'on high', but it wasn't discussed.

My problem was with the idea that they really hammered home that Dwarfs have no aptitude for seeing, feeling or handling magic at all, and yet they can still make these amazing runes. How?

The Runesmith idea was simply that they give the initial little 'charge' of magic, or maybe just somehow create a way establishing how much magic the rune can hold, and then the Anvils of Fate/Doom do the rest. Maybe it's just their blood that passes on this initial 'charge'? I don't know.

One of the possibilities thrown around was that Dwarfs don't know anything about magic itself, but just copy runes handed down to them from time immemorial. This is okay but very limited in that it doesn't explain how Runesmiths can create their own runes (if they can't see, feel or handle magic, how can they experiment?), and nor does it explain where they came from in the first place. The Old Ones? Isn't that a bit 'handweyvium'...?

Anyway, I guess it's a topic to be explored elsewhere.

Whereas we can say that a vampire wouldn't want to turn a ratman or lizardman into a vampire (they're very picky about who they 'turn' after all), it doesn't explain why Dwarfs and Elves have never been 'turned'. So, in the rather offhand nutshell that I was told the same, Dwarfs and Elves simply can't be made into vampires.

So there.

;)

Revlid
25-10-2006, 16:54
wouldnít that then mean that suitably powerful spellcasters should be able to use dwarfs as a source of magic? You could end up with some silliness there.

6th Ed. Warhammer BRB: A Dark Elf Sorceress sets up a trap for a dwarfen army for the purpose of gaining their king's blood;
"Dwarf blood, I am told, is very rich, and the blood of their High King will be a most useful bargaining tool with my master."

Rich with magic?

Rathgar
25-10-2006, 17:23
6th Ed. Warhammer BRB: A Dark Elf Sorceress sets up a trap for a dwarfen army for the purpose of gaining their king's blood;
"Dwarf blood, I am told, is very rich, and the blood of their High King will be a most useful bargaining tool with my master."

Rich with magic?

Interesting…

Maybe I jumped the gun a bit suggesting it could lead to silly background. Its nicely fantasyfied isn’t it? “blood of dwarf, eye of bat, legs of frog, steak of cow…”