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unclejimbo827
21-10-2006, 04:34
So I'm planning on building a pre-heresy contigent sometime soon, and I'm wondering about the equipment used - what weapons were used/weren't used/hadn't been created yet, different uniform styles (I know lots of beakies and studded pads, heh :)), etc. Really anything I ought to know before I create an army.

Any input? I'd appreciate it.

Nazguire
21-10-2006, 05:23
So I'm planning on building a pre-heresy contigent sometime soon, and I'm wondering about the equipment used - what weapons were used/weren't used/hadn't been created yet, different uniform styles (I know lots of beakies and studded pads, heh :)), etc. Really anything I ought to know before I create an army.

Any input? I'd appreciate it.

Depends really on what Legion your intent on recreating...

bigred
21-10-2006, 06:13
Ahh, the exotic lure of the Pre-heresy army.

Try this thread:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19361

and this one as well:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33586

And last but not least, enjoy my shameless self-promotion of my boys in white: the Loyalist Pre-Heresy DeathGuard:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29375 (scroll down a little for the pics)

Enjoy!

-bigred

Lothlanathorian
21-10-2006, 06:27
No Plasma Cannons on infantry, vehicles only. Also, limit the use if jump packs. Jump packs weren't used a lot and they didn't have man-portable plasma cannons yet. That is really all I can think of at the moment.

Ardathair
21-10-2006, 23:23
No Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons or cyclone Missle Launchers. No Landraider Crusaders.

Not certain, but I don't think they had Razorbacks either.

Dais
21-10-2006, 23:35
no eagle chestplates, they were only allowed to emp's children.

DantesInferno
22-10-2006, 00:23
So I'm planning on building a pre-heresy contigent sometime soon, and I'm wondering about the equipment used - what weapons were used/weren't used/hadn't been created yet, different uniform styles (I know lots of beakies and studded pads, heh :)), etc. Really anything I ought to know before I create an army.

Any input? I'd appreciate it.

In general, I find that the Chaos Codex is the best way to represent pre-Heresy Marine armies. Obviously avoid the overtly daemonic sections of the Codex (Obliterators, Defilers and Daemons), but the rest of what's in there captures a lot of the feel of a pre-Heresy force: a lot of marines, using somewhat archaic gear.

You won't be tempted to take stuff like Assault Cannon, Razorbacks and LRCs, because they're not in the Chaos list!

Also, there's a fair amount of leeway in equipment when you consider the 'counts as' principle (Daemonic Aura representing a protective field, and so on).

damz451
22-10-2006, 01:29
They did have assualt cannons before the heresy its just that they are so prone to malfunction and needed constant repairs which chaos forces dont have the resources to fix so they just stuck with reaper cannons as its easy to repair, its the same reason why they dont have land speeders

DantesInferno
22-10-2006, 01:51
They did have assualt cannons before the heresy its just that they are so prone to malfunction and needed constant repairs which chaos forces dont have the resources to fix so they just stuck with reaper cannons as its easy to repair, its the same reason why they dont have land speeders

They may have had a few experimental models, but they certainly weren't in widespread use. To keep in the spirit of the times, it seems much more sensible to avoid using what was at the time very rare, and stick to the much more common autocannon.

Mechanicus
22-10-2006, 09:57
No Storm Bolters,
Where did you hear that? I was under the impression that they did have storm bolters.

Brother Othorio
22-10-2006, 10:19
Where did you hear that? I was under the impression that they did have storm bolters.

2nd & 3rd edition chaos codices

they had twin-linked boltguns.. which they may have infact called storm bolters, but they werent as well balanced and lacked the integrated targetter of post-heresy storm bolters

alot of people get rather anal about the subject and start foaming at the mouth at the suggestion of using post-heresy terminator rules for pre-heresy terminators purely because of the storm bolters, personally i despise every rules for bolter-bolter combi weapons other than those in the 2nd edition wargear list: identical to storm bolter in every way except with a -1 penalty to hit, but then i was introduced to Terminators via Space Hulk wherein Storm Bolters WERE simply two boltguns strapped together..(ruleswise the only difference between a storm bolter and a boltgun was the number of dice)

as for what to have in a pre or Heresy force it really depends which version of the heresy you want to emulate: Rogue Trader/Space Marine 1st edition, 2nd edition, 3rd edition or the Horus Heresy Artbooks/CCG as all of them have notable differences

PS the forum in my sig may be of some interest..
PPS oh someone noticed the sig already.. oops :p

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
22-10-2006, 10:21
@Brother Othorio,

OT but thats a great looking forum you have in your sig.

ryng_sting
22-10-2006, 10:23
Effectively, they did: they were called combi-bolters. Although the design was refined during the Heresy (Horus had one of the first prototypes attached to his Talon), they were not put into mass production and renamed 'storm bolters' until afterwards.

Although some of their equipment might first seem early and basic, the pre-heresy marines had wide access to technology that has since been lost by the Imperium, like anti-grav jetbikes, plasma missiles, and a far more advanced type of jet-pack.

ML Kurze
22-10-2006, 10:48
No Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons or cyclone Missle Launchers. No Landraider Crusaders.

Not certain, but I don't think they had Razorbacks either.
I'm going to add to this list:

- Razorback (wasn't discovered untill somewhere around M34).
- Predator Annihilator (wasn't made untill somewhere around M32).
- Whirlwind (not sure when this one was discovered).
- Replace assault cannons for repear autocannons.
- Small numbers of assault marines with jetpacks and Land Speeders (only small numbers were produced and in use).
- Emperor's Children used jetbikes, maybe some other legions as well?
- Attack Bikes? (not sure about this one)

Brother Othorio
22-10-2006, 11:11
I'm going to add to this list:
- Predator Annihilator (wasn't made untill somewhere around M32).

i believe it was nearer m35, tho they ARE available to chaos in 40k, and curiously the EPIC 40k list for Black Legion gives them ONLY Annihilators.. so some argument could be argued for their existance



- Whirlwind (not sure when this one was discovered).

Space Marine 1st edition and the Horus Heresy art both put this in use at the time of the heresy ~ i dont believe any fluff has been published saying it is post heresy (i believe it falls into the catelogue of things that chaos should have, but dont get on the tabletop because they would play too much like imperials)



- Small numbers of assault marines with jetpacks and Land Speeders (only small numbers were produced and in use).
- Emperor's Children used jetbikes, maybe some other legions as well?

this is not an uncommon view, but the inconsistency REALLY bugs the hell out of me: all the versions of fluff that have had Land Speeders or Jump Packs as rare/post-heresy inventions have had NO JETBIKES at all, every version of the fluff that has had Jetbikes in existance has had Land Speeders and Jump Packs as common

(off the top of my head i know the revised HH art shows World Eaters and Death Guard Jetbikes aswell, SM1e had them in universal use)



- Attack Bikes? (not sure about this one)
they arent in the army list, but i say they should be available.. (and they were in SM1e and the Horus Heresy CCG) i mean.. its just a side-car

PS for those that dont know Space Marine 1st edition was set during the Horus Heresy (there are a few people about who have never beheld a copy who claim it was set during the Interlegionary War and is therefor irrelevant, but they are talking out their *******)

ML Kurze
22-10-2006, 12:01
i believe it was nearer m35, tho they ARE available to chaos in 40k, and curiously the EPIC 40k list for Black Legion gives them ONLY Annihilators.. so some argument could be argued for their existance
According to the Index Astartes Predator (and the Space Wolf sources before that) the Predator Annihilator was built by Space Wolf iron priests who used the lascannons taken from long fangs. The Adeptus Mechanicus tested this new vehicle for 200 years before approving, saying that such a conversion was actually part of the predator design.
In other words, it wasn't a pre-heresy design. But, the Black Legion probably took some annihilators prize after their defeat at the hands of the Space Wolves. Or after that. At any rate, the design probably stuck even in the Eye.


Space Marine 1st edition and the Horus Heresy art both put this in use at the time of the heresy ~ i dont believe any fluff has been published saying it is post heresy (i believe it falls into the catelogue of things that chaos should have, but dont get on the tabletop because they would play too much like imperials)
Perhaps we'll need an Index Astartes Whirlwind for this :p


this is not an uncommon view, but the inconsistency REALLY bugs the hell out of me: all the versions of fluff that have had Land Speeders or Jump Packs as rare/post-heresy inventions have had NO JETBIKES at all, every version of the fluff that has had Jetbikes in existance has had Land Speeders and Jump Packs as common
In the Chaos codex it says that jump packs were very rare in the Crusade legions.


they arent in the army list, but i say they should be available.. (and they were in SM1e and the Horus Heresy CCG) i mean.. its just a side-car
Agreeing with that. And they look cool :)


PS for those that dont know Space Marine 1st edition was set during the Horus Heresy (there are a few people about who have never beheld a copy who claim it was set during the Interlegionary War and is therefor irrelevant, but they are talking out their *******)
I'm still looking for a nice copy, but since I still don't have one, I'll just use my old copies.

Brother Othorio
22-10-2006, 12:10
In the Chaos codex it says that jump packs were very rare in the Crusade legions.


like i said:

all the versions of fluff that have had Land Speeders or Jump Packs as rare/post-heresy inventions have had NO JETBIKES at all

Jetbikes were reintroduced in the HH CCG, wherein Jump Pack equipped assault squads outnumber foot assault squads by about 2 to 1



In other words, it wasn't a pre-heresy design. But, the Black Legion probably took some annihilators prize after their defeat at the hands of the Space Wolves. Or after that. At any rate, the design probably stuck even in the Eye.

that could explain the 40k take on it, but the EPIC take could still be used as an argument for it, Jervis Johnson was being annoyingly revisionistic when doing the Armageddon list: he replaced the Shadowsword (which was heresy era) with a now obsolete precursor, and apparently even tried to revise TITANS so they were post Heresy :wtf: (but was forced to give in in the face of widespread oppositiong from the EPIC community)

ML Kurze
22-10-2006, 12:25
like i said:

all the versions of fluff that have had Land Speeders or Jump Packs as rare/post-heresy inventions have had NO JETBIKES at all

Jetbikes were reintroduced in the HH CCG, wherein Jump Pack equipped assault squads outnumber foot assault squads by about 2 to 1
Perhaps we should discount HH CCG? Or try to combine the elements into one?


that could explain the 40k take on it, but the EPIC take could still be used as an argument for it, Jervis Johnson was being annoyingly revisionistic when doing the Armageddon list apparently: he replaced the Shadowsword (which was heresy era) with a precursor, and even tried to revuse TITANS so they were post Heresy :wtf:
Jervis can be a bit of a re-writer if he thinks it works better. Sometimes I think he goes overboard and is halfway across the atlantic before being stopped.

Brother Othorio
22-10-2006, 12:39
Perhaps we should discount HH CCG? Or try to combine the elements into one?


discounting it has become alot harder with the release of the artbooks & novels

i have no problem with combining, i just dont like inconsistency, admitedly you arent the same regarding Land Speeders, but most people who favour your take tend to say "jump packs ~ rare, land speeders ~ NONONONO, jetbikes ~ common", i prefer to have the imperium to either have a decent grasp of grav-tech or not

ML Kurze
22-10-2006, 13:31
Perhaps we could say that Jetbikes and Jump packs are common as in large numbers, but rare since some legions don't have them while the 'normal' legions don't have enough to have around 3 assault squad for every 100 marines (like a codex chapter). Land Speeders are rare not because of the technology problem, but since they're only slowly entering production (and priority was given to jetbikes).
Good compromise?

manicmarine
22-10-2006, 13:49
the biggest problem you will have is finding marines with the correct armour on as the heresy suit (the spikey one) had only just come in to production. you will need to have many marines in mark 4 (maximus armour,this looks like the forge world red scorpions), a few in mark 3 (Iron Armour) and some mark 2 (Crusade armour).

Terminator armour would be about as it was designed in the great Crusade though according to the heresy books there would mainly be equipped like the choas terminators.

All the problem you would encounter depends on which leagion you where considering. The sons of horus in the heresy fiction books have very choas feeling armour and weapons, this is due in part to the crusading nature of the leagion. I would imagine the imperial fists would have equipment cloaser to current Imperial. This would be decause they where stationed on terra and thus able to build forces with the best equipment.

wikipedia has some info of relivance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_and_Equipment_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer _40%2C000%29


good luck and hope this helps a bit

Brother Othorio
22-10-2006, 14:20
*shrugs* i dont see why Land Speeders should be rarer than Jetbikes:
HH CCG:
Jetbikes appear on 8 cards
Land Speeders appear on 10

Full Horus Heresy Space Marine Regimental* list for SM1e in WD126
unlimited Jetbike squadrons**
unlimited Land Speeder squadrons**
+ a pair of mandatory recon land speeders for every battalion

* a 'chapter' in modern fluff terms
** in both cases squadron = 10 marines

'rarity' should really come down to what the unit in question is designed for, Jetbikes are more anti-infantry, Land Speeders are more anti-tank

BlackLegion
22-10-2006, 17:24
Has anyone a picture of the Decimator tank? I was said that there is a card in the HH CCG for this tank.

ML Kurze
22-10-2006, 17:59
Never heard of this decimator. What does it look like? I once saw a Death Guard Shadow Sword like tank, but can't remember the name of that one.

Brother Othorio
22-10-2006, 18:13
from the EPIC Black Legion list (v3.7) "The Decimator is a corrupted variant of an older, and now obsolete, precursor to the Shadowsword"

apparently it was going to have a totally different design to the standard superheavies, but when SG ran out of money they amended the stats so it could be represented with.. presumably a Shadowsword, i dont recall seeing a picture of it in the CCG (i'll have a look through the HH Vol4 artbook later ~ the last half of the book is pictures of every card)

ML Kurze
22-10-2006, 18:36
This is the mammoth tank of the Death Guard. It resembles a shadow sword and probably the decimator as well.

Fulgrim's Gimp
22-10-2006, 18:40
They have mammoth tanks for the Death Guard tanks which are similar to a shadowsword and Fellblade tanks which are similar to a Baneblade. As for assault canons, these are pre-Heresy. In the novels ancient Rylanor has one and in the CCG lots of units and Land Speeders have them, it was all about maintenance with them. Thunder hammers and LCs were rare. Vindicators and Baal Predators were also pre-heresy. Against this is an early WD saying vindicators were during the heresy. Personally I go by Imp armour and Space Marine.

BlackLegion
22-10-2006, 18:44
As far as i know (apart from the infromations provided in the Epic Black Legion armylist) is that the Decimator has a large boiler as its engine.

Brother Othorio
22-10-2006, 18:57
Vindicators and Baal Predators were also pre-heresy. Against this is an early WD saying vindicators were during the heresy. Personally I go by Imp armour and Space Marine.

i thought Imperial Armour took the original Vindicator fluff from SM1e (which was that it was invented during the clearing of Stahlenburg during the Scouring of Rotstern I ~ during the Heresy) but stuck a date on it 300 years after the heresy?

edit: or did you mean POST-heresy.. in which case i thought Imperial Armour said that Baal's were an STC design discovered by the Blood Angels during the Great Crusade?

charlie_c67
23-10-2006, 11:58
If your after colour schemes the best source are the IA articles as the show pre and post heresy schemes. My gripe would be that there is too many mk 6's shown, which were actually created towards the end of the heresy and nicked by traitor legions when they reached mars. Majority types would more likely be mk 4/5, mainly mark 3 for legions like the deathguard and iron warriors it would appear and a very very rare mk 6.