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Cerberus
21-10-2006, 19:39
Do you think that it's possible that some of the original Necrontyr still exist in the 40k universe? That some perhaps escaped the trickery of the C'tan and have continued to exist down the millennia, or perhaps were charged with the responsibility of constructing the first tombs of the Necrons, and so were not allowed to ascend to the immortal status of the rest of their race?

Grimtuff
21-10-2006, 19:46
They were incredibly short lived and are a race that would be untold millions of years old.

So no.

Plus what Necrontyr would not jump at the chance the C'tan offered them, the only thing holding them back was their short lifespans.

Lord-Warlock
21-10-2006, 19:53
Almost certainly not. Assuming anyone didn't want to exchange their short, painful lives with immortality, and the C'Tan said, "okay, be that way fools!" and simply left them...

1. They would have been butchered during the War in Heaven, which was basically the kind of nuclear war that turns civilisation post-apocalyptic, scaled up to include the entire galaxy and generals with the powers of gods. If not random crossfire or a slightly 'tyr-hating Necron Lord or the Eldar (who would probably kill them on account of race), bear in mind that the Old Ones' shock troops were Krork, who are Orks with better technology.

2. Or if they survived all this, they would have died out. Sixty million years, and a severely depleted race of people who, from what I can assume, pretty much lived out their lives in pain-filled cancer? Not likely odds there.

3. And, of course, there would be no Chaos gods to turn to as they weren't formed yet.

In short, the Necrontyr are very, very extinct.

- LoW

Sephiroth
21-10-2006, 20:37
The Betrayal of the Necrontyr
It is known that as the battle lines were drawn, the inconceivable power of the Cítan offered the Necrontyr a great gift. Their short-lived race, ever blighted by their uncertain existence, could gain immortality, but at a terrible price. By giving themselves to the star-gods utterly, the Necrontyr could be consumed and remade, their minds embedded into machines of living metal like the gods themselves. Freed of their mortality, the Necrontyr could pursue their vengeance of the Old Ones through millennia without fear or hesitation.

So the Messenger proclaimed, but despite its honeyed words, the Necrontyr were riven by doubt at the prospect. Those who had not surrendered to the gods already were enjoined by the rest to submit but could not be persuaded to make such a great leap of faith. It was only now that the Decieverís true face began to show as it lured the unbelievers into the clutches of the faithful with promises of mediation and compromise.

All were seized by the believers and delivered to their fate. Then the believers themselves were added to the glittering ranks of unliving machines and the Necrontyr race was utterly purged, becoming instead the Necrons, cursed to eternal servitude.

Wonder if a Necron 'non-believer' ever remembers this, and rebels? Most likely not, still it's an unexplored angle...

Cerberus
21-10-2006, 21:17
where'd you get that from?

Sephiroth
21-10-2006, 21:24
where'd you get that from?

Codex: Necrons, the section on the Deceiver special character.

Karhedron
21-10-2006, 21:29
Wonder if a Necron 'non-believer' ever remembers this, and rebels? Most likely not, still it's an unexplored angle...

I know more than a few old-school Necron players who despise the introduction of the C'tan into the fluff. They basically treat their armies as rogues who rebelled against the Star Gods. Army-wise this is easily represented by just not taking C'tan or Pariahs.

Cerberus
21-10-2006, 21:30
must have missed that bit! kinda settles it then. was just wondering caus it would be a cool idea for an inquisitor scenario or even just a modelling opportunity. just out if curiosity do you know how long the war in the heavens lasted for?

Born Again
22-10-2006, 02:50
I know more than a few old-school Necron players who despise the introduction of the C'tan into the fluff. They basically treat their armies as rogues who rebelled against the Star Gods. Army-wise this is easily represented by just not taking C'tan or Pariahs.

I don't really see this as feasible within the fluff. Apart from high ranking Lords, Necrons are basically mindless, automated machines, just like skeletons in Fantasy. And the reason Lords are Lords is because they were among the first to accept the C'Tan's offer. Still, each to their own.


must have missed that bit! kinda settles it then. was just wondering caus it would be a cool idea for an inquisitor scenario or even just a modelling opportunity. just out if curiosity do you know how long the war in the heavens lasted for?
As far as I know there's nothing official, but I imagine we're talking a hell of a long time. It basically wiped out most of the life in the galaxy, and all except four (I think?) of the old ones, who were the most advanced race around.

Zothos
22-10-2006, 03:53
4 C'Tan are left. This much we know...

I do not know of any Old One survivors.This is not to say they do not exist. If anyone does know of Old Ones in the 41st millenium please post about them.

The way i always understood it was the Necrons and C'Tan were far more advanced than the Old Ones. The Old Ones were only able to beat back the C'tan in the beginning fo the war due to their knowledge and usage of the warp and its power. It was only after the C'Tan purged the Necrontyr and gave rise to the undying Necron legions that they were able to actually destroy the Empire of the Old Ones.

By the way....

There is a possibility of a living Necrontyr in the 41st millenium.

In the Necron Codex it states that the Necrontyr used "slow burning torch ships" with some sort of cryonic hibernation chambers for space travel for their initial colonization of space. Perhaps, and it is a VERY longshot, one of these ships got off course and fell through a warp rift of some sorts. It could be plausible that an actual Necrontyr ship could appear through the vaguaries of warp space/time in the 41st millenium.

Just a thought:)

Kage2020
22-10-2006, 04:40
I do not know of any Old One survivors.This is not to say they do not exist. If anyone does of know of Old Ones in the 41st millenium please post about them.
It is old 'fluff' and, seemingly, completely irrelevant, but the same 'fluff' suggested that the Old Ones retired from the galactic community rather than being destroyed.

I feel it would be very GW to have C'tan and Old Ones still playing around in the 40k universe for somewhat obvious reasons! ;)


The way i always understood it was the Necrons and C'Tan were far more advanced than the Old Ones.
That's a judgement call since they seem to espouse the technology-spirtual dichotomy.


There is a possibility of a living Necrontyr in the 41st millenium.
Well, that conforms to Exceptionalism that we see in the 40k novels! :D

Kage

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
22-10-2006, 09:59
There is a possibility of a living Necrontyr in the 41st millenium.

In the Necron Codex it states that the Necrontyr used "slow burning torch ships" with some sort of cryonic hibernation chambers for space travel for their initial colonization of space. Perhaps, and it is a VERY longshot, one of these ships got off course and fell through a warp rift of some sorts. It could be plausible that an actual Necrontyr ship could appear through the vaguaries of warp space/time in the 41st millenium.

Just a thought:)


I like this idea alot, could make for an interesting "lost army" of some sort :)
at the least, it could make a great story, perhaps with an inquisitor finding the lost ship or something.

Mighty One
22-10-2006, 14:09
Thats a cool insight, the warp rift ship appearing. Basically you could use that for anything. Although if used often would seem a bit lame. It would work well in this instance though. When you people are talking about "old ones" do you mean the Slaan ? Or someone else? Probly a stupid question to you I know, but if you don't ask...

sanctusmortis
22-10-2006, 14:20
I thought it was 5 C'Tan still going?

Zothos
22-10-2006, 15:21
4 C'Tan....Nightbringer, Deciever, Outsider and Void Dragon are the only ones left.

As far as I know the Slann were creations of the Old Ones, much like Eldar and Orks, I have however been known to be wrong in the past....but please don't tell anyone.

By the way....In my opinion the use of such a plot device to bring live Necrontyr into the 41st millenium would be questionable at best, even if used only once....some things are better left alone. IMHO the lost Necrontyr should remain lost.

Was merely exploring possibilities~:)

Voronwe[MQ]
22-10-2006, 15:39
Necrontyr ships from a colonisation fleet getting lost in a warp rift and vomited somewhere long out in the northern eastern fringe or another galaxy or just somewhere else after the Necrons had harvested the galaxy are very likely, and then they have to be more practical and pragmatic and abandon all those dumb ideas about 'eternal life' and carry on and multiply and rebuild.

Cerberus
22-10-2006, 21:52
Now that's what im talking about. Thanks Zothos. It would have to be a pretty big warp rift tho, seeing as the necrontyr didnt have warp drive technology, so the ship would have to be like sucked into it or something.

Commander Ozae
23-10-2006, 00:10
I doubt there would be a warp rift of any appreciable size back then because the warp was in balance and there was no chaos. However, it is possible for some Necrontyr to still be alive, although it is highly unlikely. Anything is possible.

The Slaan are often viewed as a weaker version of the Old Ones, they are very similar but not quite as intelligent or powerful.

Zothos
23-10-2006, 00:16
Err....there were no chaos gods, but that hardly means that the warp was "in Balance".

The Maelstrom has existed for quite a long time without warp entities to drive it. GW has pointed out that warp/realspace overlap is a naturally occuring phenomenon, Van Grothes Rapidity anyone?

I would also point out that the Old ones were creating psychic races at this time who played hell with the "in balance" warp....which led to the enslaver plague which destroyed most life in the galaxy...........

Llothlian
23-10-2006, 06:38
It is old 'fluff' and, seemingly, completely irrelevant, but the same 'fluff' suggested that the Old Ones retired from the galactic community rather than being destroyed.

Slaves to Darkness says that they are still about, they have planets within the borders of the Imperium, but they no longer have Imperial ideas (empire building), and just keep to themselves now.

Lothlanathorian
23-10-2006, 07:32
Also, the Necrontyr ship being lost in the Warp is implausable, as the Necrontyr didn't use the Warp for anything. The used an 'inertialess drive' to span the galaxy, not Warp drives.

But, as to the thought of them being dragged into a Warp rift, I wonder how that would work. None of their technology used the Warp, though some was built to repell it, so, could they have been sucked in somehow? And, if they were, what effect would this have on a being with no Warp presence? I think I shall start a new thread on that...

Born Again
23-10-2006, 09:24
There's a school of thought that says the leader of the Eldar Harlequins and guardian of the Black Library is the last surviving Old One.

I think the Slaan are de-evolved versions of the Old Ones, very similar genetically but not exactly the same, and with some surviving tech but no real understanding of it. However, I have nothing to back this up, so take it with a pound or two of salt.

Slaaneshi Slave
23-10-2006, 09:34
My master wishes you to know that the Slann ARE the Old Ones. Often refered to as the Old Slann, they have been active in the galaxy since even before my masters glorious birth. An ancient tome dedicated to my master and his great enemy, known to lesser mortals such as you and I as "Slaves to Darkness" explains all the details of the Slann and their galactic experiments.

Outlaw289
23-10-2006, 14:55
I know more than a few old-school Necron players who despise the introduction of the C'tan into the fluff. They basically treat their armies as rogues who rebelled against the Star Gods. Army-wise this is easily represented by just not taking C'tan or Pariahs.

What was the old fluff? They just served themselves? :confused:

Matt_Windu
23-10-2006, 17:19
There wasn;t a reason for them in the old fluff. They were just mechanical creations that appeared from nowhere and wiped everything out, then dissapeared. We knew that there was more to come,that they were an old race reawakening, but they didn't get fleshed out with any origin or background until the codex was relaesed (While I was a way from the hobby, naturally) IIRC.

Lancaster
23-10-2006, 17:28
There's no need for warp effects to explain a torch ship still carrying a load of Necrontyr, think about it like this, they are bound by the light speed limit. Even if they travelled at the exact speed of light (unlikely), then the galaxy is still several million light years across, they could merely arrive at their destination in the current time period and wake up going 'wtf?'

sanctusmortis
23-10-2006, 17:33
IIRC, the Old Ones CREATED the Slann, as just another slave race for their empire. They needed powerful psychics able to physically move the terrain to aid in their divine plans.

Voronwe[MQ]
23-10-2006, 18:15
The galaxy are perhaps two hundred thousand light years across. It's two millions light years to the Andromeda galaxy. Still something could have happened to a torch-ship or fleet, or perhaps some 'outlaws'...

Commander Ozae
23-10-2006, 18:42
All sorts of technical problems could have happened, but who knows. All we know is that it is possible.

Voronwe[MQ]
23-10-2006, 19:29
Exactly, and the only impossible thing is a perfect state...

Lancaster
23-10-2006, 21:10
;1027821']The galaxy are perhaps two hundred thousand light years across. It's two millions light years to the Andromeda galaxy. Still something could have happened to a torch-ship or fleet, or perhaps some 'outlaws'...


Ok, so what if the ship was only travelling 300,000 km/hr? or some other number very below the speed of light.

Zothos
23-10-2006, 21:28
Some sort of time distortion would make more sense. Power for a trip taking more than 60 million years would be difficult to provide power for.

And yes i realize Necrontyr were high tech....but everything breaks down given time...especially something with lots of parts...and 60 million is a pretty damn big number

But then I have been wrong before....

Cerberus
23-10-2006, 21:29
There's no need for warp effects to explain a torch ship still carrying a load of Necrontyr, think about it like this, they are bound by the light speed limit. Even if they travelled at the exact speed of light (unlikely), then the galaxy is still several million light years across, they could merely arrive at their destination in the current time period and wake up going 'wtf?'

hmmm. now that makes it a lot less complicated.


;1027821']The galaxy are perhaps two hundred thousand light years across. It's two millions light years to the Andromeda galaxy. Still something could have happened to a torch-ship or fleet, or perhaps some 'outlaws'...

to clear things up, the main disk of the Milky Way is 80 to 100,000 light years in diameter, while the galactic halo extends out to 250,000 to 400,000 light years. Nevertheless, the fact that the Necrontyr ships were described as 'slow burning torch ships' would suggest that they were in fact slow, so it would still take a while to get somewhere.

Failing that, it is suggested that the centre of the galaxy is a supermassive black hole, so presuming the ship was travelling to a point on the opposite side of the galaxy, it would have to travel across this. Even if it didn't get sucked in, it would be slowed down considerable by the pull from the black hole.

Lothlanathorian
24-10-2006, 06:35
IIRC, the Old Ones CREATED the Slann, as just another slave race for their empire. They needed powerful psychics able to physically move the terrain to aid in their divine plans.


That was in WHFB, not 40K. IIRC, the Slann in 40K and the Old Ones were one and the same.

Kelvan
24-10-2006, 08:15
I can't post new topic so I put that here...

Why in new Eldar Codex there is no single word about Necrons and about C'tans we can find a rain drop in War in Haven which means now only coflict between Khaine and Vaul? What happened with ancient enemy of Eldar?

Commander Ozae
24-10-2006, 15:57
The fight between the eldar and the Necrons is the War in Heaven, but each of the gods fought it in their own way. Khaine destroyed the physical form of the Nightbringer, stopped its harvesting, and greatly weakened it. Vaul found some way to harm and possibly imprison the Void Dragon with his Talismans. The Laughing God tricked the Outsider into destroying the other c'tan until it was driven insane.

Mechanicus
24-10-2006, 16:32
Why in new Eldar Codex there is no single word about Necrons and about C'tans we can find a rain drop in War in Haven which means now only coflict between Khaine and Vaul? What happened with ancient enemy of Eldar?
They are mentioned in the new Eldar codex, it's just that most of the Eldar Myths from the new codex are cut'n'pasted from the 2nd edition one.

Looking at the Necron Codex and the new Eldar one, I think there were two Wars in Heaven, as they put it. Basically, "Heaven" means the webway in this case; because of the fact of the Eldar Gods residing there (As we know from Xenology, the Eldar Gods are more than likely Old Ones, and they created the Webway, so it does make sense). You have the first War in Heaven, which wasn't really in the webway, as much as used extensively. This was the one between the Necrontyr and the Old Ones. Maybe the Necrontyr managed to get into the webway; I don't know.

The Second War in Heaven was the one remembered by the Eldar, because this was the one in which the Yngir and the Necrons attacked the Old Ones again. The start of the Eldar War in Heaven, as far as they would know, would be when Vaul traded 100 special swords for the release of two fellow Eldar Gods. One of the swords was normal, because Vaul didn't have enough time to complete it, and it failed during the battle, ruining Khaine's plan. This caused Khaine and his 99 warriors to begin to be slaughtered, and the battle was only halted when Khaine destroyed Khaelis Ra's necrodermis. Khaine began to fight Vaul in the webway, and that was the beginning of the Eldar's War in Heaven. The rest of the second War in Heaven is just Eldar Gods fighting other Eldar Gods and the Yngir, and sooner or later, the Yngir went to sleep, so Khaine focussed on Vaul. Vaul reforged the missing sword that he was supposed to have made for Khaine and fought him with it, but lost. Vaul was crippled and chained to his forge. Ergo, the end of the Second War in Heaven.

It's probably not perfect, but it works for me. :p

Hope I helped!

Kelvan
24-10-2006, 17:17
Nice try, but I would rather read yours version in eldar or necron codex ;)

Kage2020
25-10-2006, 03:49
I doubt there would be a warp rift of any appreciable size back then because the warp was in balance and there was no chaos.
Personally I see it as entirely likely and, perhaps, even necessary. The Eye of Terror, the Maelstron, etc., are indicative of the warp thrown out of the natural state (not balance!) and, therefore, the unnatural state of the current situation. In the past? No, I can most definitely imagine them being present, if not so large! :D


The Slaan are often viewed as a weaker version of the Old Ones, they are very similar but not quite as intelligent or powerful.
Fan suggestion has the Old Ones as "transcendent Slann", which present an interesting situation even if not entirely original (i.e., it is basically Traveller's Ancients/Droyne approach). Thus, while all Old Ones are Slann, not all Slann are Old Ones (not even the greater majority).


Slaves to Darkness says that they are still about, they have planets within the borders of the Imperium...
Yep, I know.


...and with some surviving tech but no real understanding of it.
That sounds familiar, does it not?


IIRC, the Old Ones CREATED the Slann, as just another slave race for their empire. They needed powerful psychics able to physically move the terrain to aid in their divine plans.
This sounds more like WFB than 40k, to be honest.


...and 60 million is a pretty damn big number
And it works better if you divide it by ten! :D


Looking at the Necron Codex and the new Eldar one, I think there were two Wars in Heaven...
This is clear from the old 'fluff' as well, though one should not get too excited at that. One War in Heaven refers to the Old One-C'tan conflict, the other refers to a potential (mythological) conflict between the Eldar Gods. Whether these were one and the same is a matter of interpretation, and the problems of using obviously mythological pieces as concrete evidence.


You have the first War in Heaven, which wasn't really in the webway, as much as used extensively.
I disagree for a number of reasons, up to and including the fact that the Webway per se did not exist at the time... ;)

Kage

Voronwe[MQ]
25-10-2006, 12:46
Some sort of time distortion would make more sense. Power for a trip taking more than 60 million years would be difficult to provide power for.

And yes i realize Necrontyr were high tech....but everything breaks down given time...especially something with lots of parts...and 60 million is a pretty damn big number

But then I have been wrong before....

Indeed, but now 60 million+ years need not be extreme for entropy to gnaw if one focussed on robustic technologies. They was perhaps not welcome by the C'tan, or they might have carried out a nomadic existence; repairing and multiplying and building new ships as time passed...

Cerberus
25-10-2006, 14:07
And remember the Necrontyr created their ships out of their living metal so it could withstand the passage of time and space. Thus as a part of the ship degraded or eroded or whatever, the ship would repair itself while the Necrontyr inside remained in stasis.

The_Flip
29-10-2006, 15:17
And remember the Necrontyr created their ships out of their living metal so it could withstand the passage of time and space. Thus as a part of the ship degraded or eroded or whatever, the ship would repair itself while the Necrontyr inside remained in stasis.
Exactly what I was about to say... Beat me to it :)

Zothos
29-10-2006, 17:59
It is implied that the slow moving torch ships were used early in Necrontyr colonization of space. This in turn would imply that "living metal" technology was not available at the time.

I think the living metal was developed after the discovery of the C'Tan as a means of housing their rather impressive and diffuse consciousness. This places it long after the early colonization phase of the Necrontyr race.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
29-10-2006, 18:23
@The_Flip,

good to see another Necron Fanatic on here!

death to the weak flesh! iron in mind and body hail the machine :D

EarthScorpion
29-10-2006, 20:31
Hah, the though just occurred to me that the poor, unexpectant Necrontyr ships might have arrived in another galaxy just as the Tyranids decended to feed upon it. Those guys really don't have any luck, do they?

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
29-10-2006, 22:01
hahaha, poor necrontyr. I think they just need some hugs really.

Vesica
02-11-2006, 00:41
the question is would they want to still be around? and if they where chances are someone/thing would kill them lol