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andy10k
21-10-2006, 22:59
Say there is 1 unit of big spearmen (represented in X's in diagram below) in combat with 2 enemy units (Z and Y) and the unit Y either flees or dies, can X or Z "slide" over to get more guys in combat on the ensuring combat phase?



........XXXXXXXX
........XXXXXXXX
........XXXXXXXX
........XXXXXXXX
........XXXXXXXX
........XXXXXXXX
YYYYYYYYYYZZZZZZ
YYYYYYYYYYZZZZZZ
YYYYYYYYYYZZZZZZ

x = spearmen
z = chaos warriors
y = maruaders

(for example)

So once they Y's die/flee can the Z's or X's "slide" over to maximise models in combat in the next combat phase??

Thanks.

Atrahasis
21-10-2006, 23:59
No.

The winning side can expand frontage (see "free manoeuvres"), but sliding is not permitted under the rules.

mageith
22-10-2006, 01:24
No.

The winning side can expand frontage (see "free manoeuvres"), but sliding is not permitted under the rules.

This is not an Expand Frontage but a Change Formation. The difference is important for my next point.




So once they Y's die/flee can the Z's or X's "slide" over to maximise models in combat in the next combat phase??

If they win combat, I'd let ZZ, for example, pick up the models from the right side and place them on the left side as long as there was more models in the total combat as a free maneuver, ie, "a free change formation manoeuvre".

This is assuming the free manoevure is an actual "change formation", as it says on page 46, and as described on page 14 that can additionally be done while in combat.

Maybe this is too much thinking out of the box?

Mage Ith

Atrahasis
22-10-2006, 01:48
Change formation on page 14 only allows models to be moved from the rear ranks to add or reduce models from the front rank.

Moving models from one side of the unit to the other (from front rank to front rank), emulating a slide, is not allowed by the rules.

mageith
22-10-2006, 07:05
Change formation on page 14 only allows models to be moved from the rear ranks to add or reduce models from the front rank.

Really. I read that the end result is the important thing. I believe your reference begins with "For example,...." (14)


Moving models from one side of the unit to the other (from front rank to front rank), emulating a slide, is not allowed by the rules.

Right. I'd let a unit move models to the back rank from one side then move models from the back rank back to the front rank to the side needing models to fight.

I can't see where it's specifically "not allowed". I'd agree it's certainly not clearly indicated that it is allowed. The key being "clearly".

It's probably pushing the rule beyond it's limited intention but I can't see its clearly beyond it's wording.

Anyway our league have already allowed it because if fulfills a need.

The more limiting words are probably in the free manoeuvre's section where the rules mention the "change formation maneoeuvre" (46) but only indicates this can be done to increase the number of models in the front rank.

So is one of the free manoeuvres really an actual change formation maneouvre or is it not?

I agree my arguments are weak, but they fulfill a need. ;)

Mage Ith

Toddums
22-10-2006, 07:14
I agree with magith. It doesn't say you can't, and the new rules do encourage maximizing models in combat so...



*Shrugs

Festus
22-10-2006, 07:42
Hi

I am sorry, MageIth, but I don't agree with your interpretation. Even if it were that the rules *could* allow for it (which I honestly do not see at all), the rules explicitly tell you that the center of the unit has to stay the same.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
22-10-2006, 14:49
I agree with magith. It doesn't say you can't,

Thanks for the agreement, but mageith didn't exactly say that. Basing a rule on the fact the rules don't disallow it is very dangerous ground.

All I was saying is to Atrahasis is the rules don't "specifically" disallow it as I read that he stated or implied.


Hi

I am sorry, MageIth, but I don't agree with your interpretation. Even if it were that the rules *could* allow for it (which I honestly do not see at all), the rules explicitly tell you that the center of the unit has to stay the same.

Where? Not on page 14. The only thing I can find on "center" is that incomplete rank is filled from the center outwards. I think that's irrelevant to my comments.

I'm just exploring possibilities on this one. That's all.

Mage Ith

Festus
22-10-2006, 15:10
Hi

Where? Not on page 14. The only thing I can find on "center" is that incomplete rank is filled from the center outwards. I think that's irrelevant to my comments.

You don't???

My rulebook explicitly says so (p.14, right column, 2nd paragraph, in the middle).

Festus

mageith
22-10-2006, 15:24
Hi

You don't???

My rulebook explicitly says so (p.14, right column, 2nd paragraph, in the middle).

Festus
Isn't that under REFORM? The discussion I'm in is talking about CHANGE FORMATION.

Festus
22-10-2006, 16:46
Hi

Sorry, my mistake: p.14, left column, *from the middle outwards (or something: German BRB)* see diagram 14.1 and 14.2

Festus

Atrahasis
22-10-2006, 16:50
Right. I'd let a unit move models to the back rank from one side then move models from the back rank back to the front rank to the side needing models to fight. You may add to or reduce the number of models in the front rank in one change formation, you may not do both. We can only do what the rules say we can do.

I don't think you fully realise the ramifications of allowing such a thing under a single "change formation" - if units in combat can do it, then so can units out of combat, which would allow units to move sideways faster than the normal turn, move, turn procedure would allow.

DeathlessDraich
22-10-2006, 19:12
So once the Y's die/flee can the Z's or X's "slide" over to maximise models in combat in the next combat phase??

Thanks.

1) Z cannot execute a free manoeuvre since it lost combat
2) X can execute a free manoeuvre by adding 6 models (or 7 depends on your diagram) to its front rank. A maximum of 10 is allowed but additional models may not increase models in btb.

There will be 6 spearmen (X) in btb with 6 Z models.

Its formation will be 14 X 3 with 6 in the last rank just enough to gain max rank bonus and max attacks.
(or it could be 15 X 3 with 3 models in the back rank if 7 models can be in btb).

I take it the scenario is hypothetical - 48 Spearmen!:eek:

Festus
22-10-2006, 21:53
2) X can execute a free manoeuvre by adding 6 models (or 7 depends on your diagram) to its front rank. A maximum of 10 is allowed but additional models may not increase models in btb.
But increasing the models in btb is the whole point of the manoeuvre here... :wtf:

Festus

Atrahasis
22-10-2006, 21:54
A maximum of 10 is allowed but additional models may not increase models in btb.The maximum in a free maneouvre is 5.


I take it the scenario is hypothetical - 48 Spearmen!:eek:

I've fielded a unit of 64 halberdiers before, but mainly for :wtf: value.

DeathlessDraich
23-10-2006, 17:09
"A maximum of 10 is allowed but additional models may not increase models in btb."


But increasing the models in btb is the whole point of the manoeuvre here... :wtf:

Festus

You misread my statement, understably, because it wasn't written clearly. A max of 10 is allowed. In this case 6 was chosen but "additional models may not increase btb" and 'is hence disallowed' is the implication in the statement.
The smilie you included is not pleasant.


The maximum in a free maneouvre is 5.
I've fielded a unit of 64 halberdiers before, but mainly for :wtf: value.

A free manoeuvre " ... can perform a free change formation" - pg46.
pg 14 Change formation "A unit may add/deduct up to 10 models if it does not otherwise move at all"

I think in this case 10 models are allowed as the unit has not moved, unless it charged.

What happened to the 64 halberdiers?

Festus
23-10-2006, 17:23
Hi

Sorry for the smiley :cool: Better? ;)

And Atrahasis is right: 5 is the max, as given in the rule.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
23-10-2006, 20:22
Better and yes it is a max. of 5.

Brother Edwin
24-10-2006, 22:01
I cant see anything suggesting you hhave to slide them.

Can I just say that that sig was in refrence to a conversatio about street fighter where I was telling him how I always won with the girl characters.