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Born Again
22-10-2006, 03:08
This post contains spoilers. Although I can't imagine how anyone hasn't heard them already, you have been warned.


I was thinking about Xenology, and the whole Tau/Eldar connection. Although it seems fairly obvious now, the hints given to us when the original Tau Codex was published didn't really spark any suspicion (in me, at least). Although it spoke of shadow figures, I just passed it off as the Ethereals observing the other Tau. Lights in the night sky? T'au was engulfed in a warp storm. The accelerated evolution could have been due to something in their diet, or warp influence from above-mentioned storm (although the Tau have little warp presence, they wouldn't be immune to physical mutation by direct exposure). Then all of a sudden it's revealed the Eldar have been playing a little genetic cut-and-paste to help fight Chaos. Which got me to thinking: are there any other major plot lines and revelations which have been hinted to us that have been severely overlooked? I have none myself but those that do can speculate here.

Returning to Tau/Eldar, I was thinking about the Ymga monolith shown on the starmap from the rulebook. It had been mentioned to me before that it was a marker of where a Chaos champion ascended to daemonhood, but in Xenology it makes mention of the Q'Orl making large floating monoliths and marker stones in space. As the marker lies roughly in between the Tau Empire and Q'Orl homeworld, is it possible the Eldar planted it as a sort of warning sign, telling any Q'Orl that ventured that far to keep away? As the Tau were in a tight cluster of stars were warp travel was unnecessary, they may not have expected them to advance to the point of finding the monolith. Not a perfect theory but something to think about.

Galvatron
22-10-2006, 03:52
I think another good plot twist that is fairly well known, but not really discussed, is the connection between the Eldar and Orks in the Armageddon war. It was hinted at a few times that a powerful farseer was appearing to Mr. Thraka as Gork and Mork in his dreams. I think its a strong possibility.

Then again, it was only hinted at once or twice. But I think its more likely than not.

Kage2020
22-10-2006, 04:41
Amusingly enough that conforms to the "Eldar=plants" approach as well... :rolleyes:

Kage

Reflex
22-10-2006, 05:56
who knows what the eldar are up to. what is getting to me is that GW still wont move past the 41st millenium so we wont know for sure. unless they actually start doing something. Grrrrr

Lothlanathorian
22-10-2006, 06:09
I haven't read any of the new Tau stuff yet, but I remember the Eldar/Ork thing. I believe it was Eldrad Ulthran of Ulthwe and he redirected the Orks to keep them away from Ulthwe which lead the 2nd war.

Rodzaju
22-10-2006, 11:31
The new eldar dex states that Eldrad Ulthran engineered the assination of an ork warlord to allow gazkul to take charge, as the previous warlords plans were more of a direct threat to Ulthwe.
However, the imperium doesn't hold it against them as they never realised. (not that the imperium ever needs a reason to hold a grudge!)

sanctusmortis
22-10-2006, 14:24
The greatest seers of the Eldar practically run the universe. They carefully engineer the outcomes that best serve their survival, which when you think about it hints to some Tzeentch-level manipulation. Hmmm... Khaine is their war god, their seers manipulate... who said they'd escaped their ties to Chaos?

Born Again
23-10-2006, 09:17
The greatest seers of the Eldar practically run the universe. They carefully engineer the outcomes that best serve their survival, which when you think about it hints to some Tzeentch-level manipulation. Hmmm... Khaine is their war god, their seers manipulate... who said they'd escaped their ties to Chaos?

Good point, that man. Nurgle influence popping up anywhere?
Another example is the Ork "Brain Boyz" legend. It's been around since second edition at least (can any of the real old veterans confirm Rogue Trader?), and then it got expanded into the C'Tan/ Old One War in Heaven.

On the now infamous stone tablet in Xenology, there's a figure in the second tier that looks scarily like a Tyranid. Is it possible the 'nids were a creation of the old ones, sent out round the galaxy to evolve into a super-organism that would one day return and wipe out all life in the galaxy, hence starving the C'Tan to death. A sort of last resort kamikaze weapon? It wouldn't surprise me if that opened up somewhere...

Also, Leman Russ (and other primarchs) stating they would one day return leaves a lot of stuff open, if the plot ever develops that far (ie; no). Still, could be interesting.

RampagingRavener
23-10-2006, 09:45
On the now infamous stone tablet in Xenology, there's a figure in the second tier that looks scarily like a Tyranid. Is it possible the 'nids were a creation of the old ones, sent out round the galaxy to evolve into a super-organism that would one day return and wipe out all life in the galaxy, hence starving the C'Tan to death. A sort of last resort kamikaze weapon? It wouldn't surprise me if that opened up somewhere...

This is actually a theory I've thought of before, though never noticed the similarities to the Xenology Tablet. That perhaps the Tyranids were a weapon of the Old Ones, which would be unleashed on a world that had gone 'wrong' somehow, strip it back to rock to allow the Old Ones to re-seed it, then quiety pack themselves away at the behest of their masters. Except when the Old Ones all died, the Tyranids had no-one left to control them.

Forbiddenknowledge
23-10-2006, 12:32
Now that is cool.


Me and a mate came up with a nid theory, that stated, rather than being galactic locusts, who eat all and move on, rather they are fleeing their home galaxy because of something worse than the nids, is destroying them. They simply do the eat thing in the 40k galaxy to keep the hive fed as it moves on through the galaxy, escaping the destroyer behind them.


And them that gives rise to the "What the klkn could be worse than the nids?" theory, and possible major plot line!

Slaaneshi Slave
23-10-2006, 12:43
And them that gives rise to the "What the klkn could be worse than the nids?" theory, and possible major plot line!

My master wishes you to know that he often has nightmares (if such a being could ever be considered to "sleep", so maybe "daymares" is better) of the being worse (http://www.s-west.org/images/furby.jpg) than a Tyranid... Of course, none of those things are as deadly as His own Daemonettes.

malika
23-10-2006, 12:51
Hmm personally Im not too fond of the Nids fleeing from anybody or them being a weapon of the Old Ones. I like the idea that they are a race of their own, eating everything in its path.

LarryS
23-10-2006, 13:52
Good point, that man. Nurgle influence popping up anywhere?
Another example is the Ork "Brain Boyz" legend. It's been around since second edition at least (can any of the real old veterans confirm Rogue Trader?), and then it got expanded into the C'Tan/ Old One War in Heaven.
.

Most of the ork brain boyz fluff I have seen dates back to RT days in the "Waaa Da Orks" supplement. Orks were engineered as warriors/laborers by one of the smaller orkoids. The brain boyz were dependent on the consumption of a rare fungus to develop and maintain high levels of intelligence. At some point, the orks rebelled and consumed all the special fungus. No effect on the orks, but the brain boyz eventually regressed and became the snotlings we know today.
All this old history has, to my knowledge, been brushed aside and/or ignored by current fluff. Right now, the whole brain boyz theory has been swept aside in favor of the "old ones created all the major races" storyline.

Mechanicus
23-10-2006, 14:36
I think they can just be combined. We still don't know what role the Old Ones took when creating a race, except probably being viewed as Gods in the Eldar's (and a few other races) case. So maybe Gork and Mork were originally Old Ones who engineered the Ork race (beginning with the Snotlings/Brain boyz, and the Brain boyz then bred the Gretchin and then the Orks). The Old Ones (probably Gork and Mork) then watched them develop to Space faring level, and when the Brain boyz foresaw their downfall, encoded the knowledge of how to do things into their memory, so that some would have innate knowledge of Mechanics, some would have innate knowledge on surgery, etc. The Brain boyz regressed, the Orks spread through space with Gork and Mork's intervention, encounted the Necrons and went to war. The war didn't do exceptionally well, but the Enslavers arrived, and the Necrons go to hibernation with C'tan, and the Orks expanded further into space.

It's not perfect, but it's how I view the Brain boyz/Old Ones link.

Voronwe[MQ]
23-10-2006, 14:55
It sounds logical, though we could speculate there was a race on their own that engineered the Brain Boyz etc. to get a 'biological weapon-army' to use in defence of their realm against the Old Ones. Perhaps the Old Ones re-coded them to get completely mad with bloodlust and warlust along with modification-adaptions to allow them to survive better than the original Orks. The Orks might have been seeded and used on many places, and leaving their encoded knowledge intact would mean that they would be able to get off the backwater worlds the Old Ones decided to seed their counter-weapons. The original Orks' creators was then - after a short time that, like humanity would have, they did not take as a warning with indications of something on a few unimportant locations going wrong with experiments - destroyed by the Orks.

Born Again
28-10-2006, 01:27
In 2nd edition, it stated that the orks were created by the Brain Boyz, who were wiped out in a galaxy-wide plague ie; enslaver plague. This was long before the Necrons and Old Ones as we know them now came on the scene.

Kandarin
28-10-2006, 02:25
Hmm personally Im not too fond of the Nids fleeing from anybody or them being a weapon of the Old Ones. I like the idea that they are a race of their own, eating everything in its path.

Somebody floated the idea a while back that the Tyranids are the deviants of a wider race, driven from their home galaxy by their saner cousins for their aggression and overwhelming greed.

The pestilent 1
29-10-2006, 01:11
Somebody floated the idea a while back that the Tyranids are the deviants of a wider race, driven from their home galaxy by their saner cousins for their aggression and overwhelming greed.

Out of control, last resort weapon > Space Chavs.

max the dog
30-10-2006, 00:34
From the Tyranid codex:
1. Where did they come from? That's never been answered properly. All we know is that they came from out past Tyran in their first hive fleet. Page 27 of the latest codex predicts another incursion, "our galaxy has yet to feel the full might of the hive mind's main force".
2. What is on Tiamet? The system of Tiamet appears to have been colonized by Tyranid like creatures long ago and they developed their own "rudimentary hive mind".
3. Orc/Tyranid hybrids from the Orc empire of Octavius? "outlying planets have begun to file reports that include pict-captures of assault organisms larger then ever before."
4. Unidentified creatures in the codex? What the heck is "Von Ryan's Leaper"? All I know is that it evolved from the Hormagaunt. What about the Deathgaunt with the "unidentified weapon"?
5. What about the feral Tyranids? Will the Ymgarl Stealer and Catachan Devil been reabsorbed into the hive fleet? Are they what's attracting the Tyranid invasions?

Born Again
02-11-2006, 08:01
Since when did the Catachan Devil become a Tyranid organism? I know it gets mentioned from time to time, but I always thought they'd been there ever since humans colonized the planet. Genestealers are meant to be the first wave to draw in the fleets... I don't think they'd get as far as Catachan and not infest any other planets.

Scythe
02-11-2006, 08:25
The devil is mentioned under the 'forgotten hive fleets' section in codex Tyranids. The idea is that there were Tyranid invasions before Behemonth, but they were probably on a smaller scale or such a long time ago that they have been lost in the imperial records. It is speculated that creatures like the catachan devil and the leaper are offspring of these older fleets.

Hobgoblyn
02-11-2006, 09:06
As I understand it, things pretty much went like this from the beginning...
The Old Ones went about the galaxy fooling around with stuff.
I think there are 4 races they pretty definatively made. The Eldar, the Orks, the Hrud and the Slann.

Now, each of these had a purpose. Eldar were supposed to be the lore keepers and inventors, the Orks were supposed to be the warriors, the Hrud were meant to be scouts and mechanics, Slann were supposed to be the bio-scientists and continue the work.

Or, perhaps none of them had this special niche in mind, perhaps they were all waves trying to defeat the C'Tan. The Orks were an attempt to use an ultimate bio-army, the Eldar were the ultimate high-technology one, Hrud might have been saboteurs and Slann were an attempt to psychically overpower them... all these failed.

What is worse, something went horribly, horribly wrong with every one of these creations. The Orks somehow destroyed the bio-type that was supposed to control the army and give them purpose and direction. Without this purpose and direction they just went on an ultimate, unstoppable rampage and reproduced without end.
The Eldar could tap into great psychic power, but this just turned them into victims for chaos.
The Slann seem to have been destroyed by their own bio-experiments.
The Hrud seem to have lost any real purpose and just randomly float about the galaxy doing.... nothing particularly note-worthy or important.

You know, considering this series of failures perhaps the Old Ones created the Tyrnid as well. It certainly stinks of another one of their experiments gone horribly, horribly awry.

But, that one of these species took after its parent race and began running experiments isn't surprising. In fact, the Slann were already doing it before they died out. So I guess the Eldar just decided to usurp the niche.

Carlos
02-11-2006, 10:40
The thing alot of older players forget is that a lot of fluff from 1st/2nd edition has now either been swept under the carpet or just chopped off because it was ********.

In my mind, after reading the various codex's it goes something like this:

Old ones, supreme race. Necrons and Stargods, other supreme race. They fight. Much death.

Old ones create Eldar and Krork.
The Eldar Gods are warp entities, not Old ones (other wise where the hell did Cegorach and Khaine come from?) and were consumed by Slaanesh, another warp entity. Eldar are genetically engineered to have strong links with the warp, the ctans enemy.

The Krork (who were dumb to start with) were created by the old ones as the ultimate army, free of sadness and free of guilt and love. They are resourceful and can multiply at a constant rate thanks to genetic engineering. When the old ones died (whom the Orks refer to as Brain Boyz) the Krork went out of control as they had no way of keeping themselves in check, and thus their warlike society begins and continues to this day. Rudimentary language means the name of Krork is forgotten in favour of Orks.

When the old ones were defeated and the necrons went to sleep the Eldar carved out a large empire and the Orks were left to their own devices.

Mankind evolves naturally as opposed to being engineered, hence his lack of understanding compared to eldar/Tau.

Last Vestiges of Old ones civilisation create the Tau as the ultimate race. Instead of dangerous warp power they use superior technology and ideology to create a unified race that can withstand the Ctans 'great works'. No more danger of old ones.

Tyranids are from another galaxy and are very hungry....

In the end several things will/could happen:

The emperor returns and mankind conquers the entire galaxy

Rhana Dandra. The material universe and the warp merge as one. All races die except the Eldar whom have Ynnead to keep their souls and the Laughing God of the Harlequins to turn to.

Necrons seal off the warp and the Ctan rule again

Abaddon conquers terra and the imperium finally falls

Orks en masse and destroy everything

The Tau reach levels of technology unsurpassed by all and conquer the galaxy

The Tyranids eat everything. The End

Scythe
02-11-2006, 11:08
When the old ones were defeated and the necrons went to sleep the Eldar carved out a large empire and the Orks were left to their own devices.


Well, it wasn't that simple. When the old ones were losing the battle, they resorted to desperate measures, and amongst those were also the Enslavers. The Enslavers took over the galaxy, and the C'tan went into slumber. This is what we know. However this results in certain questions still. What eventually beat the Enslavers? Why did the Eldar and the Orks survive the Enslavers, and how come the enslavers present in the current 40K time line don't take over large parts of the galaxy? Also, how does the Eldar versus Necron storylines fit into all this? There are a lot of storylines of the Eldar fighting the Necrons and the C'tan, but not that many further linking and explaining the Eldars connection with the other races present at that time (Old Ones, Krork)...

precinctomega
02-11-2006, 12:44
I'd always understood that the War in Heaven had three distinct phases:

1) Old Ones and C'Tan in conflict, leading to the eventual near-victory of the Old Ones.

2) The Enslaver invasion forestalls the Old Ones' victory by attacking where they are strongest (from the Warp) and distracting the Old Ones, who finally drive the Enslavers back at massive cost to themselves. In the mean time, the Old Ones have created "place-holder" races (probably created hastily and with only a little consideration as to their strategic utility, by different Old Ones with varying ideas of what will or will not work) to combat the C'Tan and Necrontyr pending the conclusion of hostilities against the Enslavers.

3) The Old Ones find themselves without the strength to confront their old enemies, the C'Tan - either they are all killed or they fold themselves into a parallel dimension and do the cosmic equivalent of putting their fingers in their ears and singing "la-la-la!" The place-holder races, however, have made alliance with other beings (the gods) who assist them in finalyl driving the C'Tan and Necrontyr into dormancy.

This is then followed by a period of wonderfulness and peace, within which an overlooked world with a nitrogen-oxygen mix atmosphere begins to evolve "intelligent" life. The Eldar gods lead their people to a golden age of environmentally-friendly technological marvellousness whilst keeping other races under the thumb.

This period continues until the bith of Slaanesh who consumes the Eldar gods, annihilating their empire and plunging the galaxy into a chaos from which it has yet to emerge.

See? It's all the Eldar's fault!

R.

Scythe
02-11-2006, 13:01
Not entirely true. The old ones were winning against the Necontyr (as far as you can call that a war; the Necrontyr had no chance at all), until the Necrontyr managed to awaken the C'tan. Once those came into the play, the Old Ones were pushed back due the C'tans huge control over normal space. In desperation, the Old Ones eventually made dozens (if not more) of separate races to fight the C'tan, which eventually lead to the Enslaver plague (btw, does anyone know if the Enslavers were an independent race, or were they also 'made' by the Old Ones?). The C'tan retreated into statis to let the psychic wave created by all the new races and the Enslavers die out, and the Old Ones vanished (for reasons unknown). Enslavers conquered the galaxy, were unable to hold it for some reason, and the Eldar took over. Millions of years later, the Eldar empire falls with the Birth of Slaanesh, and even more years later we have the situation as it is now.

precinctomega
02-11-2006, 15:40
In desperation, the Old Ones eventually made dozens (if not more) of separate races to fight the C'tan, which eventually lead to the Enslaver plague

See, that's what I don't get. I don't see any connection between creating the placeholder races and the Enslaver invasion. Nor do I see any evidence that the C'Tan were beating the Old Ones before the Enslaver invasion. Nor do I see how the galaxy can exist as it does in the game if the Enslavers weren't defeated by the Eldar.

We KNOW that the C'Tan were beaten by the Eldar and their gods, not by the Old Ones, implying that at this point the Old Ones had vanished. We KNOW that the Enslaver invasion was concluded at the point that the Eldar defeated the C'Tan. Ergo, either the Old Ones or the C'Tan defeated the Enslavers before the C'Tan then defeated the Old Ones. It makes more sense that the Old Ones defeated the Enslavers, because that would then leave them vulnerable to the C'Tan counter-attack. It would also explain the flawed and hasty creation of the placeholder races: designed to occupy the C'Tan through both fighting and being consumed while the Old Ones dealt with the Enslavers. Only the Old Ones had to return to the fight too soon after being badly mauled by the Enslavers and it all went horribly wrong.

R.

Rockerfella
02-11-2006, 16:34
I'm pretty sure the C'tan were forced into hibernation BECAUSE the enslavers basically sapped the galaxy of their only food source, with little or no chance of any harvest, let alone the 'red' harvest.

I think.... :P

Scythe
02-11-2006, 17:03
See, that's what I don't get. I don't see any connection between creating the placeholder races and the Enslaver invasion. Nor do I see any evidence that the C'Tan were beating the Old Ones before the Enslaver invasion. Nor do I see how the galaxy can exist as it does in the game if the Enslavers weren't defeated by the Eldar.

We KNOW that the C'Tan were beaten by the Eldar and their gods, not by the Old Ones, implying that at this point the Old Ones had vanished. We KNOW that the Enslaver invasion was concluded at the point that the Eldar defeated the C'Tan. Ergo, either the Old Ones or the C'Tan defeated the Enslavers before the C'Tan then defeated the Old Ones. It makes more sense that the Old Ones defeated the Enslavers, because that would then leave them vulnerable to the C'Tan counter-attack. It would also explain the flawed and hasty creation of the placeholder races: designed to occupy the C'Tan through both fighting and being consumed while the Old Ones dealt with the Enslavers. Only the Old Ones had to return to the fight too soon after being badly mauled by the Enslavers and it all went horribly wrong.

R.

Now, there is a connection. The placeholder races created by the old ones where all exceptionally psychic, which lead to the general destabilisation of the warp. Also, the immense number of psychers is said to have lead to the rise of the Enslavers, since they are attracted to psykers (psykers acting as a becon for them). This leads to the logical conclusion that those races were created before the rise of the Enslavers.

At this point (Enslavers rising), the old ones probably vanished. Maybe they saw the situation was hopeless or something, and left the Eldar and the other races to their fate (pure speculation).

This is also what drove the C'tan back like Rockerfella pointed out. The C'tan fought the Eldar, but neither did really win. However, the Enslavers were robbing the C'tan of all their food, so they went into hybernation.

Now, we also know that the galaxy was devastated by the Enslavers once the C'tan retreated. However we also know that the Eldar, Krork and some Enslavers themselves survived, and that the Eldar built their empire afterwarths.

Now, I think this means we could assume that the Eldar somehow dealt with the Enslavers once the C'tan were gone, at a high price tough. But then, they weren't able to completely erradicate them, and still leaves the question how they did it (psychic powerhouses as they are, Eldar should have attracted tons of Enslavers).

Rockerfella
02-11-2006, 17:30
The war with the enslavers couldn't have placed much of a burden on the Eldar however, as they were still the dominant race in the galaxy for milennia after the event.. we'rent they? :S

LarryS
02-11-2006, 18:24
The problem with most of the histories of the war in heaven is that each version is told from the perspective of the race giving the history. I'm sure that each race has "modified" the story a bit to emphasize their role and clean up the unpleasant parts...Not many legends run along the lines of "we were getting our butts kicked, then the bad guys just went away".

That said, the way I saw it was that the old ones introduced a LOT of different races into the galaxy - kind of a "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" approach. The enslavers (independent warp entities) probably showed up on their own due to the higher levels of psychic activity. I just can't rationalize the old ones bringing them in voluntarily - kind of like burning down your house to clear out an infestation...

The eldar gods may have been able to fend off the c'tan, but I strongly doubt that they were solely responsible for them going into hibernation. BTW - What is the official fate of the eldar gods? Were they destroyed by the c'tan during the war in heaven or were they eaten by slaanesh during its birth and the eldar fall? For that matter, does the eldar history of the war in heaven even mention the enslaver plague?

That's the problem with retconing an established history - the new parts don't quite fit with the old ones...:wtf:

LarryS
02-11-2006, 18:30
The war with the enslavers couldn't have placed much of a burden on the Eldar however, as they were still the dominant race in the galaxy for milennia after the event.. we'rent they? :S

Not sure exactly why the enslavers left - the necrons/c'tan thought that they would just go away on their own after they consumed the lesser races. The eldar were the most powerful race, but I read their histories to imply that they gradually became more self-absorbed and didn't really pay much attention to other races. After all, all their basic needs were met, so they did not need to search for new worlds and resources. Instead, they focused on personal interests/obsessions which led to their fall and the rise of slaanesh.

Rockerfella
02-11-2006, 18:33
As i recall, the Eldar pantheon was almost entirely consumed by slaanesh as she awoke. I believe the Eldar Gods were weak, as the majority of the Eldar had neglected them, turning their beliefs inwards and focusing on self gratification and utter decadence. Only Khaine and The laughing God 'survived' as it were. I think its fair to say that Khaine too was weak, there is some speculation that Khaine may have fared better had slaanesh awoke much earlier. If that makes sense.

Khaine fought the Nightbringer one on one as i understand it, and defeated the c'tan in single combat. At this point he was affected somehow by the necrodermis of the expolding C'tan as he destroyed its physical shell.

So, no.. the Eldar gods fared very well against the C'tan, although there is little mention of any of the other gods involvement against the C'tan, other then Vaul, Khaine and the laughing boy.

Rockerfella
02-11-2006, 18:36
Not sure exactly why the enslavers left - the necrons/c'tan thought that they would just go away on their own after they consumed the lesser races. The eldar were the most powerful race, but I read their histories to imply that they gradually became more self-absorbed and didn't really pay much attention to other races. After all, all their basic needs were met, so they did not need to search for new worlds and resources. Instead, they focused on personal interests/obsessions which led to their fall and the rise of slaanesh.

Thats exactly as I understand it. :)

There seems to be a crossover though here.. C'tan dissapear due to the enslavers feeding on all the lesser races- but does this include the Eldar, who at that point, we're on the ascendency and about to take sum names down? Did the Eldar finish the Enslavers off? I dont get it.... :confused:

Mechanicus
02-11-2006, 18:41
I always viewed it as there were two Wars in Heaven, due to the Khaine-Vaul thing and the Necrontyr-Old Ones war (Which had the title War In Heaven) This gives me the impression that the Wars in Heaven were wars involving the Necrontyr and the Webway. In the first, the OO constantly outmanoeuvered the Necrontyr using the Webway. In the second, the Necrons and Yngir attack the Eldar and their Gods, whilst the Gods fight amongst themselves.

So, attempting to reconcile all I know of them:

1st War: The Necrontyr attack the Old Ones, but their technologies are no match for the Old Ones’s use of the webway, and are pushed back to the Halo stars. The Necrontyr find the Yngir, and once they had given them bodies, they were given metal bodies.

2nd War (Necron start): Yngir and Necrons attack Old Ones, Eldar (and their gods), Krork, Jokaero, etc.

Khaine attacks Eldar, and maybe other races, due to Lileath’s prophecy that he will be torn into a hundred pieces by a great mortal army.

Eldar gods cut off from the Eldar by the wishes of Asuryan. Isha and Kurnous contact and help the Eldar against the wishes of Asuryan, and Vaul agreed to help them in any way he could.

Khaine overheard Isha and told Asuryan, and was told he was free to do with them as he wanted. Khaine imprisoned Isha and Kurnous.

In return for their release, Vaul agreed to forge 100 swords in a year to fight against the Yngir. At the end of a year, Vaul had forged 99 swords. He slipped in a normal sword, and rushed to get Isha and Kurnous out of their prison and escaped.

Khaine and 99 Eldar fought Khaelis Ra and his minions with the swords, and as one was normal, and not living, the defence was broken and Khaelis Ra came upon them. Khaine attacked Khaelis Ra and destroyed his necrodermis, and Khaelis Ra was forced to return to a tomb for a new necrodermis. Khaine was tainted with the aspect of the reaper. All the Eldar were tainted with the fear of the grave.

Khaelis Ra reached into the minds of the young races and gave them the fear of death, with the Krork being the only exception.

Vaul reforged the final blade, and called it Anaris, or dawnlight.

2nd War (Eldar view this as the start): Khaine came back and attacked Vaul. Gods fought each other, making and breaking pacts and agreements with each other and the Yngir, but always were Vaul and Khaine on different sides; all except Asuryan, who refused to take sides.

Eldanesh fought Khaine. Falcon retrieved Anaris from Vaul, and Eldanesh used it in his battle. Khaine kills Eldanesh. Falcon returns Anaris to Vaul's forge (?).

The plague of Enslavers from the warp caused mass destruction among the Yngirs crop, and so the Yngir began to descend into stasis.

Cegorach drove the Outsider insane by making it believe that Cegorach was one of it’s fellow Yngir. It ate the Yngir who Cegorach impersonated, but the voices drove it insane. It drove itself into exile by collapsing into a ball, where it remained.

Vaul created ‘Iron knights’ and soul constructs to attack the armies of the Void Dragon, to buy him time to create the Talismans of Vaul. These Talismans used Morai-heg’s ‘Eye of the witch’ to transport a miniscule amount of the immaterium into the materium as a beam. They were sent out to attack the Void Dragon, who was preparing a large attack in person. (Unknown how the conflict resolves. For what it's worth, I think that Vaul's Talismans slightly drained the Void Dragon, but he escaped before he could be killed.)

The Void Dragon descended onto Mars and slept.

Vaul fought with Khaine, and did much damage to him, but was toppled from heaven and was left crippled and chained to his forge by Khaine.

These are based on all I can find. It may not be entirely accurate, but it's an overview, and I have no idea when the start of the Enslavers plague was, so I put it in before all the Yngir start to descend into their Tombs.

Rockerfella
02-11-2006, 18:53
Awesome stuff!! I think that which you have described is the commonly understood history of the 'wars' in heaven! ;o)

We still dont seem to know.. at what pont the enslavers 'drove' the C'tan into hibernation... and what the Eldar and their gods were doing at this point... do we? ;op

Scythe
03-11-2006, 06:35
Very good post Mechanicus. That sums it up quite nicely. Tough I want to point something out:



2nd War (Necron start): Yngir and Necrons attack Old Ones, Eldar (and their gods), Krork, Jokaero, etc.


At the start of this war, it was just the Yngir and the Necrontyr (I don't think they were Necrons just yet) versus the Old Ones. Because the Old Ones were losing, they created all the other races, including the Eldar.

This is quite interesting as it seems to imply that the war lasted for millenia, if not more, as I think it took some time for the Eldar to develop as race and form their Gods in the warp, before they started to fight the C'tan instead of the Old Ones.

And the rise and fall Enslavers are still quite a mystery...

Icarus
03-11-2006, 10:38
That was a cool summary, and I agree that the War in Heaven probably lasted hundreds or thousands of years. I've always seen it as similar to the Hundred Years War in English history, which was actually several different wars in relatively quick succession, but commonly reffered to as one war.

On the Enslavers, I think its reaosnable to assume the Eldar either found a way to destroy them or were able to protect themselves against infection until the pandemic passed. The Eldar are very adept at protecting their souls/warp presences, what with their spirit stones, warp spiders (the orignal little ones) and the like, and would probably have been eve more adept with such means before the Fall. So maybe they found a way to destroy them, maybe they just stayed on the defensive until the infestation died out of its own accord (as most large-scale infections do).

Scythe
03-11-2006, 11:01
Well, there are still Enslavers around, which makes you wonder why they aren't turning into a new plague. After all, there's enough food available again this time.

Rockerfella
03-11-2006, 15:28
Hence the awakening of the C'tan.... With Maknind so available to munch on, plauging the galaxy.. its a veritable feast for the c'tan at the moment. :eek:

LarryS
03-11-2006, 18:02
(trying to remember description from RT rulebook) I think the reason the eldar survived the enslaver plague is that enslavers prey on untrained psykers that have a relatively strong warp presence but few defenses.

Eldar embrace their psychic nature and are trained to use whatever abilities they may manifest. Perhaps this training, in conjunction with their use of seer runes and similar psychic accessories protected them from possession.

Other races psykers may have developed similar defenses. Those that did not were consumed/turned into warp portals. Eventually the enslavers depleted the available supply of vulnerable psykers and went...back to the warp? Somewhere else? Fell into a plot hole and disappeared from history?

Oh, BTW - orks (weirdboyz) waaa powers are different from warp-based psyker powers, so enslavers and similar entities probably don't notice them.

EarthScorpion
03-11-2006, 18:16
But that is partly the problem; the Eldar's defences against psychic entities appear to be a legacy of the Falll, where it might be viewed as a case of "Shield or Die". Certainly they seem to have been very casual about all sorts of unprotected things before, and during "The Fall as a state of society".

I do worry, slightly, that we are basing all of this purely upon mythology, which as we know from our own history, can be, to put it bluntly, almaost always false, or at least exceedingly exagerated.

sulla
03-11-2006, 20:29
Plagues always 'burn out' though... There's nothing to suggest that the 'enslaver plague' didn't decimate the Eldar (or worse)... but they had plenty of time to rebuild after that.

Another possibility is that the Eldar's gods/old ones helped protect the Eldar in some way.

Icarus
03-11-2006, 20:32
Thats true, having immensely powerful warp being looking after you must help. Maybe Khaine stamped on them.

Rockerfella
03-11-2006, 23:32
hehe,

yeah, i can imagine it... 'Enslaver attacks Eldar, Eldar knock in some Khaine Worship, out pops Khaine, and introduces his spear to the Enslavers..' I wonder what the fluff regarding that would be like! :P

cybertron2000uk
04-11-2006, 12:52
I want pre fall eldar fluff and minis!...
the near total death of the eldar empire looks alot more fun....

Rockerfella
04-11-2006, 23:30
Yeah, pre fall Eldar would be cool, and some kind of representation of the Gods before they became weak and were eaten by you know who. Would be great to see just what the physical form of Khaine looked like as he fought the nightbringer. Fascinating.... hehe.

Scythe
05-11-2006, 07:07
Other races psykers may have developed similar defenses. Those that did not were consumed/turned into warp portals. Eventually the enslavers depleted the available supply of vulnerable psykers and went...back to the warp? Somewhere else? Fell into a plot hole and disappeared from history?


Point is, they are still there. There have been mentions of Enslavers attacking and taking over backwater planets. I even remember a white dwarf article a few years ago which had rules for Enslavers.

Which is why I am wondering why they are only such a small treat. I mean, resources enough for them to bloom again. Maybe the Eldar or something else are keeping their numbers in check behind the scenes?

BrainFireBob
05-11-2006, 07:33
Yes.

The Emperor isn't passive on his throne- he's protecting humanity from the Warp. That's not just Chaos, that's also things like Enslavers.

Other surviving races are self-protective.

There's a wonderful history thread of the War in Heaven here on Warseer- it's quite old, but search should turn it up. Someone compiled the references and linked them in a sensible manner.

One of his postulates I was quite fond of stemmed from his picture of the Old Ones, stemming from their parallel with WFB's Slann- the Old Ones had a Hive Mind in the warp, but were a cold consciousness- when the Warp became self-disruptive, they started going insane/devolving into individuals, hence creating the Slann of 40K.

The Enslavers he posited as a self-protective mechanism instituted by the Old Ones to clean up "their" warp. Being as how they weren't entirely sane by then, it'd be a nice connection.

The Tyranids as a weapon of the Old Ones I also liked, personally- reminded me of a phrase I heard once: "It's the result of one serious-assed QRC"- or "quick response contract." The Old Ones either had them as a holdout "weapon", or as a slash'n'burn total war alternative. It would explain the "splinter" Nids currently in the galaxy- Leaper, Catachan Devil, Fenrisian Kraken- and why they're coming now- the Old Ones would've kept something like this as far from plentiful food as possible.

It'd make sense, too, if the Nids are reacting to the C'tan- the C'tan awake, the Nids turn their fleets toward the C'tan, without knowing why.

The Orks I see as similar- the Eldar weren't controllable, the Orks and Jokaero both would be. More, the Orks are a kind of total war weapon- seed a planet with them, prevent them from leaving, and (as I recall) without anything to fight, they'd get smaller/die out/not reproduce as often once they'd killed everything else on planet. Or release tailored diseases. Point is, seed a planet, and don't worry your enemy will be able to use it anymore.

I think the Enslavers feed on the same kind of things Daemons do. The galaxy is relatively stable compared to the end of the War in Heaven. So, less to feed on.

ThorOdensson
05-11-2006, 08:37
It'd make sense, too, if the Nids are reacting to the C'tan- the C'tan awake, the Nids turn their fleets toward the C'tan, without knowing why.


I thought the nids were reacting to the necrons and C'tan by avoiding them

Rockerfella
05-11-2006, 10:21
This is a very interesting development. I'm not sure about teh Eldar Tau commection, but i'm aware of it.

Some guy that works in the local GW made a comment to a friend of mine about the Eldar working with the Tau, exchanging vehicles (WTF??) and basically mentoring them, bringing them up as it were. I've no idea if this is pure rumour mongering, or if this guy actualyl knows what he's talking about, but there seems to be alot of buzz about this whole Eldar Tau thing.

I'd appreciate any info on this too!

Cheers in advance!


Sorry about this post, i appear to have put it on the wrong thread. Apologies for my ineptitude. :P

Killermoose
05-11-2006, 10:34
I'd like to hear some more about this link between the Old Ones and the Tyranids. And the Eldar/Tau connection. Perhaps the Tyranids were just a last resort. I think the Old Ones would have made them to devour the galaxy if the Old Ones died and the C'tan woke up. They would be good because the C'tan only really like to eat sentinet creatures, and as Tyranids are controlled by the hive mind, not themselves, they would be rubbish food for the C'tan. When they had finally eaten every living thing, the C'tan would be stuffed (just speculation) I have read in some different forums about the idea that the Hareliquinns created the Tau, but I would like to know more.

Scythe
05-11-2006, 10:51
There's nothing more tough. There is nothing to back up the link between the Old Ones and the Tyranids (and personally, I don't see it as that likely. The nids are completely different physical and metal wise from any other race the Old Ones created; plus they could not have sensed the C'tan awakening if they were in a different galaxy, right?)

There is also nothing more about the Tau Eldar link as the text in Xenology, altough some hints exist here and there, but nothing specific.

Most of this is all pure speculation...;)

Rockerfella
05-11-2006, 10:57
And what, may i ask is the Eldar Tau link in Xenology??

Cheers!

Scythe
05-11-2006, 11:07
Alright, I haven't read Xenology yet, so this is just what I scrambled / understood of other treads (someone else can probably give you a better answer).

The special 'diamond' Tau ethereals have in their front head is rumoured to be something the Eldar (Harlequins specifically) implanted there. Assumably the Eldar wanted to create the Tau as a race resistant to Chaos by having no psychic power to rely on, and guided / controlled their development as a race.

Killermoose
05-11-2006, 11:11
Cool. So the Eldar may have fiddled with the etherals, and made them exert some sort of hypnotic control over the rest of the race, to make them work as one? If the Tau reached technology better than the Eldar, they would be the perfect race to conquer the galaxy.

Rockerfella
05-11-2006, 11:12
Alright, I haven't read Xenology yet, so this is just what I scrambled / understood of other treads (someone else can probably give you a better answer).

The special 'diamond' Tau ethereals have in their front head is rumoured to be something the Eldar (Harlequins specifically) implanted there. Assumably the Eldar wanted to create the Tau as a race resistant to Chaos by having no psychic power to rely on, and guided / controlled their development as a race.

Ahhh, i see.

Very interesting indeed, and something the Eldar are more than capable of doing i think.

Cheers! ;)

Born Again
10-11-2006, 09:13
Alright, I haven't read Xenology yet, so this is just what I scrambled / understood of other treads (someone else can probably give you a better answer).

The special 'diamond' Tau ethereals have in their front head is rumoured to be something the Eldar (Harlequins specifically) implanted there. Assumably the Eldar wanted to create the Tau as a race resistant to Chaos by having no psychic power to rely on, and guided / controlled their development as a race.

The Harlequins aren't insinuated directly, but otherwise entirely correct.

Isoroku
10-11-2006, 23:00
Interesting theory is some been accustomed to test or is theory of the Magus Biologis that it investigates in Xenology?