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Nazreg Moonsinger
22-10-2006, 16:04
Characters:

Lv.4 Archmage...358
-Jewel of Dusk, 2x Scroll, Seer, Pure of heart, Elven Steed

Commander...132
-Ring of Corin, heavy armour, shield, Barded steed, lance

Commander...135
-Ring of Fury, heavy armour, enchanted shield, Barded steed, lance

Core:

6x Silver helms...179
-Standard, musician, warbanner

5x Silver helms...136
-Standard, musician

10x Archers...126
10x Archers...126
-Musician

Special:

6x Dragon Princes...233
- Standard, musician, Banner of Sorcery

Tiranoc Chariot...85
Tiranoc Chariot...85

Rare:

Bolt Thrower...100
Bolt Thrower...100
Bolt Thrower...100
Bolt Thrower...100

Total: 1995

Missing few silver helms and one Bolt Thrower anymore. Soon ready to fight!

enyoss
22-10-2006, 18:55
Four bolt throwers is a bit excessive isn't it? Also, I'm not quite sure where your Archmage is going to go? The only place I can see him going is in one of the units of Silverhelms which, naturally, you'll want to keep from agressive combat. Doesn't this leave you a bit thin on the ground for aggressive units?

Overall, I would say that it doesn't look too interesting to play I'm afraid. A bit heavy on the magic and shooting for my tastes.

Cheers,

enyoss

Nazreg Moonsinger
22-10-2006, 20:38
Four bolt throwers is a bit excessive isn't it? Nah. Not at all. Not atleast here in Finland. :)


Also, I'm not quite sure where your Archmage is going to go? The only place I can see him going is in one of the units of Silverhelms which, naturally, you'll want to keep from agressive combat. Doesn't this leave you a bit thin on the ground for aggressive units? Archers?


Overall, I would say that it doesn't look too interesting to play I'm afraid. A bit heavy on the magic and shooting for my tastes. lists tend to be here, where composition is dog food. :D

Thanks anyway.

enyoss
22-10-2006, 20:50
Looks like we have differing philosophies on army composition then :) Oh well, best of luck with the tournament.

Cheers,

enyoss

p.s. I still think you should drop the Bolt Throwers to 2 ;)

Darkhorse
23-10-2006, 09:20
On RBTs;
An RBT can chuck out 6 S4 bolts at BS4 averaging 4 hits per RBT, In your case with 4 RBTs that's 16 hits from 400 pts.
Compare this to a standard missile troop, say Dogs of War; Mercenary Crossbowmen. Same range, same strength, BS3 and 8 pts a model.
400 divided by 8 = 50
50% chance of hitting = 25 S4 hits from the same 400 pts...

That was a message from the Sartosan Merchants Guild...

enyoss
23-10-2006, 09:45
True, but then there is the extra save modifier for bolt throwers... where does that factor in? Also, when taken with the single bolt option (particularly useful with Curse of Arrow Attraction and Second Sign - if this still applies to 'to wound' rolls) things become less clear cut again. Also, the original poster mentioned a tournament setting... be prepared to sacrifice some of those army composition points if you include pirate crossbowmen ;)

Cheers,

enyoss

edit: I'm not justifying 4 bolt throwers though ;)

Darkhorse
23-10-2006, 10:20
Single bolts are limited to the number of ranks in the target unit placing an effective 4 kill cap on them.
Not considering armour the single bolt has a 67% chance of hitting the unit.
At T4 it has 57% chance of wounding the front man, 36% wounding the 2nd, 18% of wounding the 3rd and 6% of wounding the last.
So for 4; 2.7 hits, probably resulting in 4, maybe 5 wounds.

Curse of arrow attraction actually improves the Mercs more than the RBT simply due to the weight of shot:
Taking the 4 RBTs again; 24 shots, 16 hits, reroll 8, total 21.7 hits.
Crossbowmen; 50 shots, 25 hits, reroll 25, total 37.5 hits.

Armour:
6+ or less obviously belongs to the Mercs.
5+ (T4) 8 kills for the RBTs, 10.4 kills for the Mercs.
4+ (T4) 6.7 for the RBTs, 8.3 for the Mercs.
3+ (T4) 5.7 for thr RBTs, 6.3 for the Mercs.
2+ (T4) 4 for the RBTs, 4.2 for the Mercs.

Oberon
23-10-2006, 11:02
.... a tournament setting... be prepared to sacrifice some of those army composition points if you include pirate crossbowmen ;)

We don't have composition points here in Finland, just painting, fair play(sometimes, and it doesn't matter when we even use them) and of course generalship(or whatever you call it). :)

Nazreg Moonsinger
23-10-2006, 14:15
Your mercenary crossbows can't shoot into 48". They take more space on deployment zone. They have worse LD for leadership tests. Also they don't have armour piercing modifier and knights can show their flank on them without harm done. They are pretty useless against dragons and so on...

So I can see why I'm paying more points for fewer casualties. Also count what your mercs do on 1+ save knights.

Of course I'd love if elven bow had S4, but I'd be still taking few bolters. Not so many tho...

Since I have 4 kinds of ranged damage available. Magic, RBT's, Archers and DoW xbowmen/halflings I consider 4 RBT's Better than 2 units of 25 xbowmen.

Darkhorse
23-10-2006, 14:23
After much number crunching I finally found a circumstance where the RBT out performed the Mercs...
S4 multibolt vs. T3 troops with 2+ save; Mercs score 5.8 kills, RBT scores 5.9!

And that's it...

Teach
23-10-2006, 15:28
Why not take two L2 wiz's. Or take the silver wand instead of jewel of dusk and seer. Saves a lot of points. Your bolt's can only shoot for 2 turns maybe 3 before your cav and chariots hit home. eagles can move beside your cav faster.
Good luck!

DragonPup
23-10-2006, 16:02
After much number crunching I finally found a circumstance where the RBT out performed the Mercs...
S4 multibolt vs. T3 troops with 2+ save; Mercs score 5.8 kills, RBT scores 5.9!

And that's it...

Is that factoring that the multibolt shots are armor piercing?

Nazreg Moonsinger
23-10-2006, 16:25
Dark Horse, I listed very reasonable amount of situtions where RBT is better.
Now get lost with those damn mercs!

Teach. Why would I want 33% chance of having LD8 General? :D and counting that lv.2 wizard costs about 170-180 points x2 = 360. It's about as much as my archmage.

Darkhorse
23-10-2006, 16:50
Is that factoring that the multibolt shots are armor piercing?

Yes, that's the only reason they come ahead at all, hence the mention that the target must have a 2+ save.
All of the situations NM stated have nothing to do with killing power. Extra range, sure if you want 'em in the corners, shooting at long range which will drop their hit rate even further. You're looking at tiny kill rates. Those things will never make their points back.

The only reason I could see for taking them is that the obvious alternative (archers) are even worse.

truthsayer
23-10-2006, 18:28
Teach. Why would I want 33% chance of having LD8 General? :D

But it wouldn't be 33% would it!? :eyebrows:

Edit: yep it would! Although its not that bad. My friend lines up 5 characters and will always roll a 6. jammy git.

Teach
24-10-2006, 08:18
True, but keep them back. With 2 wiz's all eggs aren't in one basket. Plus they can go ethereal (or something) and still cast spells.

Nazreg Moonsinger
24-10-2006, 19:27
Darkhorse. Those situations have something to do with killing power, as your crossbows won't get to shoot same enemy unit mostly. Also, they will result into very bad deployment and as they restricts my other army of killing things I don't like the idea.