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MorningStar
01-07-2005, 03:05
Don't know if this is the place to post this thread but here goes. I just finished watching Tears of the Sun and towards the end it got me thinking. Would the Imperium send in IG Stormtroopers to rescue someone stuck behind enemy lines or what not. Say a planetary governor or what not. I don't see why they wouldn't, if they couldn't get them out any other way, would make a good scenerio. What do the rest of ya think?

jimbo034
01-07-2005, 03:10
cant you play a kill team senario like that

IG88
01-07-2005, 03:28
If the dude was super duper important, they might send an Assassin. Speaking of which, that'd make a cool kill-team scenario: one Assassin as your entire kill-team. Though taking a Vindicare would be kinda boring...

kanluwen
01-07-2005, 03:56
They most likely would leave them to die if the situation was THAT bad. Not just would the individual be useless afterwards--but there's a high chance of corruption by whatever caused the situation.

Angelus Mortis
01-07-2005, 03:59
If for what-ever reason they absolutely had to get him, I can see a couple Valkyries with some Stormtroopers on them going for the rescue.

x-esiv-4c
01-07-2005, 04:30
Depends on the importance of the trooper. I'm sure a veteran or a trooper with important information would be retrieved at great cost. A regular IG infantry man lost in the woods, well he's out of luck.

Thunderbolt Pilot
01-07-2005, 13:50
Sounds great! In addition, there should be a reason the bad guys don't want to kill him. Perhaps they want the information he has just as bad.

Inquis. Jaeger
01-07-2005, 14:29
They'd never send an assassin. Assassin are tools for killing people, not infiltrators trained to rescue and extract dignitaries.

There was a good story a while back about a catachan force sent in to a jungle to extract a planetary governor and his astropath from a crashed shuttle - the war on that world was against Enslavers and their minions. Undoubtedly if there was an important enough target, Storm Troopers would be sent if they were on hand - they're trained for this kind of thing. Otherwise ordinary grunts.

On the other hand, there's loads of stories about Space Marines being sent on similar missions, indeed, isn't that one of the missions in the Battle for Macragge set? To rescue Lt. What'shisface?

Vaya
01-07-2005, 14:36
Maybe an odd remark, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Schaeffers last chancers here.

MorningStar
01-07-2005, 15:18
I've actually started working on a scenerio and some background, but far from done. But its gonna be something on the lines of a down thunderhawk or valkyrie which was carrying a planetary governor and/or an important astropath, or perhaps even an Inquistor? I am thinking of using IG stormtroopers and maybe Orks or Nids as the bad guys? Any comments or questions?

alterion
01-07-2005, 15:35
well tbh if an officer allows himself to be captured he is boviuosly a coward scared to die for hei emperror so not worth saving.. but probably stomtroopers/ deathwatch to bust a craftworld ect / a draco style inquisator possibly?

gunhed
01-07-2005, 16:03
well tbh if an officer allows himself to be captured he is boviuosly a coward scared to die for hei emperror so not worth saving..

I'm sure I've read something somewhere (could I BE any more vague? :D ) about a rescue mission where the hostages/captives were rescued, possibly from the Dark Eldar, only to be executed for allowing themselves to be captured.

Col.Gravis
01-07-2005, 16:11
*nods* Regulars are out of luck, and even if they do make it back to their lines their likely to be given the pleasure of a summary execution (depending on the Commissar present) for dessertion (tis a hard life in the Guard!) Planetary Nobility and highly ranked Imperials (I'm thinking for example Lord Generals (even Traitor ones - read 'Traitor General'), Inquisitors etc) would of course be a different story - likewise if the individual in question had knowledge or material deemed important.

Lord-Warlock
01-07-2005, 16:24
Under the Lex Imperialis it is indeed a crime to allow oneself to be taken alive - by not fighting to the death you're giving the enemy the chance to torture you for information, use you as a bargaining chip, etc. One of the maxims of the Arbites is that "all hostages are expendable".

Of course important personell such as nobles, Governors, officers etc would be another story, though the wealthy would probably have to compensate the Emperor's servants for the rescue attempt.

Brusilov
02-07-2005, 07:47
IMO, rescue operations would be limited to people that can prove useful in the hands of the Imperium, because they have some special skill. And even then, that skill would have to be exceptional IMHO to warrant a real rescue operation.
Otherwise a bullet between the eyes or something like that is a very efficient way to deny the enemy the use of that person (even a Lord General or an Inquisitor, although in the latter case another Inquisitor might have to give the order). Everyone is expendable in the Imperium, even the higher ups, unless they have something the Imperium wants.

SO IMHO, the Imperium would not go out of its way to rescue every noble, governor, general... They brought this upon themselves by lack of faith and fighting spirit.

Adept
02-07-2005, 14:58
I think we're making a mistake by referring to the Imperium as a single minded entity. The Imperium itself has billions of people working on Terra administrating for worlds that they are so removed from that they would not even know if they still exist. It wouldn't suprise me to find that Tyran is still being administrated, or the Damocles Crusade still being funded somewhere on Terra.

I don't think the request for a rescue operation would ever reach Terra. It's unlikely it would even reach a General.

More likely the person in power would weigh his options, and decide for himself. That might be an Inquisitor, a General or Colonel, or even a Lt or Sgt, and I imagine he would base his decision on net results. Will the rescue result in a boost in morale? Would it require a huge operation? Would it glean important information? And so on. So saying the Imperium is too callous to save a single grunt is innacurate. The Imperium itself is so large that a single grunt is like a single red blood cell. It's affairs are so tiny as to not even register. More likely the Captain or Colonel of the platoon/division would decide for himself, as a man, in terms of worse or better results. The boost in morale would be huge, and well worth it if expected losses were light.

Darius Rhiannon
02-07-2005, 19:29
Also another thing to consider, staff positions in the IG 40k is a result of patronage (this is inferred).

Mmmm, the Lord General is being chased through the woods? I see an lucrative future for the officer who leads the rescue...

Brusilov
02-07-2005, 22:56
I would return your argument. If a single human is nothing but a red blood cell, then it's not even worth saving. Blood cells die and are born in their thousands all the time, thus the disappearance of a single one of them is unnoticable. Only if you go up in the hierarchy of cells does this disappearance start to matter.

Foremost on anyone's mind thinking about a rescue is whether the operation will jeopardize the objectives of the campaign. If so, then a rescue or assassination are in order, if not then people are left to fend for themselves.

The Imperium is callous and its representatives don't think of individuals, they think of results, they see things as figures and statistics, as production inputs and casualty rates...

just
02-07-2005, 23:07
Traitor General sort of touches on that situation.

The thing is, "behind enemy lines" means that you are exposed to some nasty things that you really should not be exposed to. Thus, it is more likely that if the individual(s) trapped in such a situation possess vital information the most likely thing to be sent after them is an assassin, not a rescue team. If they don't possess anything that the Imperium must know or don't want to enemy to know, well MIA = KIA as far as the Imperium is concerned.

alterion
02-07-2005, 23:24
hmm.. good point adept.. i guees that it would depend on the commisars / fanatics surrounding the power man a lot

Brusilov
03-07-2005, 08:34
Good point just, what's the point in trying to save someone if you end up wasting troops to the corruption of the enemy, this is as you rightly mentioned especially true when facing Chaos.

What seems odd to me in Traitor General, is why Slaydo wouldn't simply send an assassin after the traitor, much more efficient that a commando of guardsmen if you want to get rid of someone. After all they're there for that.

Axel
03-07-2005, 10:00
What seems odd to me in Traitor General, is why Slaydo wouldn't simply send an assassin after the traitor, much more efficient that a commando of guardsmen if you want to get rid of someone. After all they're there for that.

Without knowing the book (yet), I would guess: "availability"?

Assassins do not seem to be an option open to even higher Imperial ranks on a regular level.

Lord-Warlock
03-07-2005, 10:47
Without having read the book - the Warmaster (...Slaydo? Surely you mean Macaroth?) might have tried and someone on the Senatorum might have vetoed it. You need the approval of all twelve High Lords to sanction the deployment of an Assassin. As for why would they veto it, well, he might have enemies...

Brusilov
03-07-2005, 11:22
Can't remember what Warmaster died and what's the new one, it must be Macaroth then... My mistake.
And don't get me started on the ridiculous idea that the High Lords must sanction every action of the Officio Assassinorum that's simply impossible because the High Lords would spend their days doing this, and considering the speed at which information travels by the time the High Lords are informed and have made a decision the situation has changed radically.
My opinion is that the High Lords authorise the deployment of Assassins to a region or their attachment to someone with high enough authority, usually an Inquisitor and leave it at that. Then they receive reports on the operations and approve them or call the person responsible to answer for his actions.

So don't tell me in a Crusade as massive as that of the Sabbat Worlds, you don't have a bunch of Inquisitors with a few Assassins at their beck and call, available to assassinate the traitor. Considering what he knows, this would have been a high priority for the Crusade High Command to dispose of him, warranting the use of an Assassin.

just
03-07-2005, 21:34
He probably could, but it wouldn't have been a book without it.

Brusilov
03-07-2005, 21:53
Yes I agree that you would not have a story if the Warmasterhad sent an Assassin instead. But it would have been a more logical solution than sending Gaunt and a bunch of Ghosts...

Axel
03-07-2005, 22:50
So don't tell me in a Crusade as massive as that of the Sabbat Worlds, you don't have a bunch of Inquisitors with a few Assassins at their beck and call, available to assassinate the traitor. Considering what he knows, this would have been a high priority for the Crusade High Command to dispose of him, warranting the use of an Assassin.

I would not challenge that he had access to some Assassins, but resources have to be used carefully. Perhaps all Assassins were on a mission the moment this situation occured. Or perhaps some fat weasel trying to promote his own faction suggested using IG for reasons totally unkown to us mere mortals. Looking to history, similar situations occured frequently. The decision not to bag the French & British armies at Dunkirk is but one that historians will merrily discuss, and that with most of the sources available. Obviously unlogic decisions are what we should expect from large organizations, were factions fight for influence in the most subversive manner. Don`t let such events spoil a good story :-)

Brusilov
04-07-2005, 00:04
You're making a good point, political backstabbing would be rife in the entourage of a Warmaster. It's just that I have a hard time seeing what could anyone gain from sending the Ghosts, unless someone wants to get rid of Gaunt, which would be logical since he did not make lots of friends...

Myst
04-07-2005, 01:13
There was a good story a while back about a catachan force sent in to a jungle to extract a planetary governor and his astropath from a crashed shuttle - the war on that world was against Enslavers and their minions. Undoubtedly if there was an important enough target, Storm Troopers would be sent if they were on hand - they're trained for this kind of thing. Otherwise ordinary grunts.

Actually, considering it was a jungle operation, Catachans would be the #1 choice for that type of thing. Storm Trooper or not, they are not jungle specialists and slogging around in a jungle battlezone in carapace armour for a week or so would be beyond pretty much any non-marine human.

Myst
04-07-2005, 01:16
What seems odd to me in Traitor General, is why Slaydo wouldn't simply send an assassin after the traitor, much more efficient that a commando of guardsmen if you want to get rid of someone. After all they're there for that.

Remember...Warmaster Macaroth doesnt really like Gaunt a whole lot. Might of been a way to kill two birds with one stone and all?

Brusilov
04-07-2005, 06:15
Yes, Myst, this is the conclusion I came to as well, when someone mentioned the political battle that is characteristic of a Warmaster's headquarters.

EmperorsChamp01
04-07-2005, 10:21
They would probally send the squad in to git the guy. Then after they got all the information they needed they would Execute him because he alowed himself to be captured