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goreshrek
23-10-2006, 00:58
This situation came up in a weekend game of Brets vs Empire. It concerns the order of fighting combats when one unit wipes out an enemy then pursues/charges into another enemy unit. The rule book p.45 was unclear to us.
Knights Errant charge empire pikemen, and the associated Empire detachment flank charges the Knights. KOTR charge a lone character trying to hold them up. The KOTR wipe the character and pursue, easily reaching the detachmnet for a rear charge.
What order do we resolve the remaining combats? Resolve Knights Errant (KE) vs Empire, or KOTR vs detachment, then KE? The reason we ask is the KOTR can wipe out the detachment, so they don't get hits on the KE. Otherwise they hit the KE, giving alot of CR points.
We diced it off, and the BRETS ended up winning by alot, but with units that were close in stats, this would be a big deal.
thanks for your help.

NakedFisherman
23-10-2006, 01:11
The KOTR wipe the character and pursue, easily reaching the detachmnet for a rear charge.

How? Fighting isn't done until the close combat phase.


What order do we resolve the remaining combats?

The player whose turn it is chooses the order to fight the combats.

TheWarSmith
23-10-2006, 01:18
I think his point is that a unit that charged is being charged by a unit who is being charged.

When there are multiple charges, resolve the charger that entered combat last.

In this case, resolve the KotR against the detachment, then the detachment against the Errant, then the errant against the pikemen(you mean spearmen?)

Fisherman: To your second argument. He did that. That's how his KOTR got into combat with the detachment. From how I read/understand this, the Bret player had 2 charges. He charged into the pikemen and was countercharged according to empire detachment rules. He also charged a character. He chose to resolve the character/kotr first as it would take him into the detachment if he overrran/persued(and it did). So since the KotR overran into a combat not yet resolved, they can fight again, and would fight against the detachment first.

goreshrek
23-10-2006, 02:28
thanks, warsmith, for stating this better than my original post.
Page 45, the paragraph that says 'the combat must be worked out immediately' had us confused. Does it mean the combat 'that has not been resolved yet'? It would mean a huge swing if the CR was going to be close between the sides.

TheWarSmith
23-10-2006, 03:16
If you could give me the whole quote, that'd help me more. I don't have immediate access to my rulebook, but I know that section very well.

Each combat happens 1 at a time. Since you conducted the kotr combat first(wisely so too), resolution is worked out completely before moving onto the errant combat. Your overrruning kotr charge into the back of the detachment and attack first, followed by the detachment if any are left, then the errant, then the spearmen. This would be huge if you look at the swing in CR.

Your kotr would give you +2CR and probably stop the detachment from rank negating and getting flank bonus, so that's probably a 5 point swing in CR, not even counting what wounds the detachment might cause if it was at full strength when it attacked.

I'm going to attach a paint file(i'm HORRIBLE at that) to try to get what you mean.

ZomboCom
23-10-2006, 03:24
I think his point is that a unit that charged is being charged by a unit who is being charged.

When there are multiple charges, resolve the charger that entered combat last.

Sorry, but that's just not the case at all.

Under 7th edition rules, where you have multiple units that count as charging they resolve their attacks in initiative order.

Under 6th edition rules, where you have multiple units that count as chargine you resolve their attacks in the order they charged, i.e. first charge first.

The only exception to these rules, under 6th and 7th is empire detatchments performing a Counter-Charge, who will strike before the other chargers, regardless of who charged first or initiative.

WLBjork
23-10-2006, 08:04
Zobo, where did you find this?

According to page 34, the chargers still always strike first (unless prevented by a special ability). No mention is made of how to resolve multiple charges, thus the old "last charger to hit stikes first" would still apply, and also makes the most sense.

NF: Remember that a pursuit/overrun move into an unfought combat allows the fresh unit to hit as if they had charged. It is also possible that the character had fled and been run down and the charging unit had the movement to hit the detachment - which again counts as a charge.

Festus
23-10-2006, 08:46
Hi

Zombo is right: p.45 tells us that different chargers within the same combat will have their attacks in the initiative order. But the detatchment will only strike first against the unit it flank-charged, as their special rule. It will not strike first against the rear charger...

Festus

TheWarSmith
23-10-2006, 11:27
So doesn't the rear charger(kotr) strike first regardless of initiative? Since all of these units are humans(I3) would they dice off?

Festus
23-10-2006, 13:03
Hi

The sequence is:

1st: Empire detatchment to the front in countercharge (qua special rule)
2nd: charger in initiative order, chargers with great weapon last, dice if necessary
3rd: non-chargers in ini order
4th: non-chargers with great weapon

Greetings Festus

NakedFisherman
23-10-2006, 13:20
NF: Remember that a pursuit/overrun move into an unfought combat allows the fresh unit to hit as if they had charged. It is also possible that the character had fled and been run down and the charging unit had the movement to hit the detachment - which again counts as a charge.

Remember what? I know the rules.

Remember that you don't fight the combat unless they were already engaged.

Remember that a fleeing character being run down by chargers isn't a pursuit.

I don't see why you're bringing up rules that don't pertain to the situation at hand.

'Hey, WLBjork, remember that shooting at a unit at long range means there's a -1 to hit penalty.'

Whether you attempted to be patronising or not, you were.

Festus
23-10-2006, 13:47
Hi

He, NF, stop making a silly impression will you (as you are normally quite cool and often right). :cool:

The original poster told you about engaging the single character, *wiping out the character and pursuing*, (which actually is an overrun, but it doesn't matter here) so WL Bork is right: Your comment was uninformed to say the least. It helps if you read the thread... :(

And after that: Yes, the knights could charge, and any attempt at patronising seemed OK to me :p

Greetings
Festus

WLBjork
23-10-2006, 14:38
Got the reference, thanks Festus.

Zombo's wording threw me out a little, but now I see that a charging unit impacting another charging unit is worked out as if neither side were charging.

goreshrek
24-10-2006, 01:47
The original poster is back...thanks for all the feedback.
I don't know Empire rules, (old hand at 40K, new to WFB), so the detachment has a special 'hit first' rule?
Warsmith's diagram is accurate.
The KOTR had my general, he has the highest Initiative (5). The empire player ran a wizard out in front of my KOTR to try block the charge:confused: THe KOTR killed him and used the 'pursuit into fresh enemy' rules to rear charge the detachment.

wraith[cs]
24-10-2006, 01:54
No, Empire detachments do not have a special "strike first" rule. All that detachments do is count as charging.

So, say a non-lance formation unit charges the parent Empire unit and the detachment counter-charges. The order would be :

1. Non-lance formation against parent unit.
2. Detachment against chargers.
3. Resolve remainder of combat.


Oh, and the wizard was merely sacrifising himself for the glory of sigmar (or, so that you hopefully rolled low on your overrun thus missing the detachment :p )

Einholt
24-10-2006, 04:04
Sorry, Im just learning the rules and that last bit confused me, why wouldnt the detachement get to strike before the chargers, if I understand they counter charged so their charge attack goes first then the chargeres and then the actual regiment.

DeathlessDraich
24-10-2006, 08:03
pg 9 Empire Detachment Counter charge: " In the Close Combat phase, resolve the countercharging Detachment's attacks first, then the attacks of the enemy and finally those of the Parent unit which was charged."

So, the detachment does strike first unless they are charged then pg 45 applies "If charging models are fighting other models that count as charging. solve their attacks in Initiative order"

wraith[cs]
24-10-2006, 09:19
I stand completely corrected!

Artemis
24-10-2006, 11:05
Hm. So in the case we are discussing, the knights that charged the rear of the detachment after resolving their first combat and overrunning, would have to roll off with the detachment to see which unit strikes first, provided they have the same initiative?
Btw: will there be a change to the detachment rules in the new army book regarding this?

Festus
24-10-2006, 12:14
Hm. So in the case we are discussing, the knights that charged the rear of the detachment after resolving their first combat and overrunning, would have to roll off with the detachment to see which unit strikes first, provided they have the same initiative?
Btw: will there be a change to the detachment rules in the new army book regarding this?
No, the detatchment will strike first against the front, then it will be hit in the back, and then it will be able to hit back to the back. IIRC They are not charging per se (they cannot, as the prerequisites are not given: right side of the charged, etc.), they are *countercharging*, a part of their special rules.

Greetings
festus